Can I convert a buddy to crossdressing...or

[lacyinsd]

Or are we, as crossdressers, born to dress...?

Quick story then maybe I can get some feedback from all you supportive ladies.

I have been a long time CD within loving relationships with women. Now I find myself wanting to spend time with another crossdresser for dressing, relaxing and maybe some playtime. My good friend, Bill, hasen't had a relationship with a woman for about 6-7 years and resists or sabatages the possibilities with women he does date. My other friends and family thinks he is gay. I'm not sure so I told him I crossdress and he was O.K. with it. I am trying to explain to him why I do it and have asked him to try the lingerie feeling himself. He agreed so I brought him over an overnite bag of things to try. The next day he called and said he really didn't want to try "dressing" so I picked up the bag and we haven't spoken of it since...this was about 2 months ago yet we continue to golf and watch sports at bars.

So...it leads me back to my question and motivating need to be with another, friendly, fun, playful CD....Are crossdressers made or can they be led into our awesomely wonderful, lacy hobby ?

[Katrina]

I think that you are born with the CDing gene. If your friend is truly amicable to the idea but afraid, you should probably proceed with caution. I know that although I have been out a couple of times, I'm not ready to go shopping or hang out with any other CDers yet. I would be nervous if I was in his position and would probably chicken out. If he does like CDing, he may not want your reaction to him to cloud his rosy vision of himself. I know that when I first started dressing up in front of my GF, I was nervous about what she would think/say. I still have not done the complete getup (wig, etc) in front of her.

[Joanne_2003]

Your buddy might feel that you are setting him up. Has he ever seen you wearing womens clothes? If he hasn't he may feel skepticle of your being a CD'er. If you haven't been dressed in front of him you will need to take it slow, possibly wear a bra and camisole and leave an extra button undone. Good luck.

[susandrea]

He said no. I'd let it go.

I believe CDing desires stem from the way the brain is wired.

Many people have relationship problems that aren't related to their sexual preferences.

He may have issues you know nothing about (like past abuse, ect.) and aren't qualified to help him with-- except to gently urge him to see a therapist for his own good. But if he resists, just continue to be his friend and listen to him. :)

[DonnaT]

Well Lacy, when you first had the nerve to dress, were you intrigued by the attire or did you feel foolish for even thinking of putting it on?

Me, I was intrigued and felt a need/desire to put it on. I imagine a lot of cross dressers felt the same.

Your friend, on the other had, may have thought about it, but felt embarrassed about even thinking about it, and could not get past the embarrassment.

So, can CDs be made or are they born? Both actually.

There are instances of CDs being made, for example, because they are submissive and forced to dress. They love the humiliation it causes, and in turn love to dress because they love the humiliation. Such CDs have been labelled as fetish transvestites. Thus, they are not transgendered.

Those of us that were intrigued and felt a need/desire dress, are most likely transgendered, and thus were probably born that way.

[Sweet Susan]

I don't think we are born this way with or without a gene, but I do think one has to be want it in some fashion. However we get attuned to it it is what it is for us, and not for others. I don't see how any body could do it just because somebody else wanted him to do it, afterall, it isn't like a woman wearing a pair of jeans. You might want to look into yourself a bit. Perhaps you have thoughts or desires for men in lingerie, and perhaps that is the real issue. If it is, there men out there that can help you.

[Rikki Elisabeth]

I never thought anything [than guilty] when I started wearing my clothes. As I have said in earlier posts, I started wearing women's clothing at 5. I now know that I had nothing to feel guilt about. What I was doing was being me.

Is he you?

[miss_sarah]

Are cross-dressers made or can they be led into our awesomely wonderful, lacy hobby ?

There was a show on not too long ago, TLC or something, about a pair of twin brothers, one had a botched circumcision and a whacky doctor decided he be surgically reconstructed as and raised as a girl. Total failure, but science had already adopted it as a major success... So gender roles at least, seem to be hard-wired. I would also add that our society creates these rules VERY early on, your friend may very well have grown up in the doctrine that boys are boys and play with trucks and do sports and work on cars - manly things - and any interest in anything beyond that is "queer" or "abnormal". Anyway, i tend to ramble.... here's an excerpt from that story --


Bruce was a normal boy, not an intersex child, and yet the decision was made to turn this boy who had lost his penis, into a girl. Under the guidance of Dr Money and his team at Johns Hopkins University this baby boy was surgically changed into a girl. After surgeons at Hopkins had castrated baby Bruce, he became baby Brenda. The family were instructed how to bring up Brenda as a normal little girl. According to Dr Money's theory she would grow up believing herself to be female and would go on to live a normal happy life as a woman. It seemed the ultimate test that nurture could override nature.

Thirty years after Bruce became Brenda, the impact of this extraordinary story continues. After almost 14 years living as a female, Brenda Reimer reverted to her true biological sex - the case of the boy who was turned into a girl had failed. Brenda took the name David and for the last twenty years he has lived anonymously in his hometown of Winnipeg. For almost all this time no one knew the outcome of John Money's celebrated case. But now that David has gone public, the case is being widely discussed once again and its impact on John Money's theory of gender development and the treatment of intersex children is being hotly debated.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/boyturnedgirl.shtml

Same story, but the show I saw was on a US cable network... at any rate, I think it shows that while even I like to blame society for creating gender boxes, etc, perhaps there's more to those "nature" arguments than I often like to admit...

EDIT: Sweet_Susan brought up some good points!

[TGMarla]

I saw the "Brenda" story on TV. Very interesting, but we're comparing apples and oranges here. Having someone try a little crossdressing is not at all like asking him to live as a gender that he doesn't identify with. He didn't want to try on the clothing even though he had time to himself, no one around...sounds to me like it just isn't his thing. Other than placing the opportunity in front of him, what can you do? Forced feminization? Husbands have the opportunity to try on feminine clothing all the time, yet most (allegedly) do not. Why? It's not something they are interested in doing. Bottom line, if your friend doesn't want to, don't push it. In today's world, if he decides he wants to, he could do it. And he has your number to call if the urge to try comes along. Leave him alone.

[MsJanessa]

Your buddy may well be gay but not a TV/TG---a lot of gay men don't want to have anything to do with crossdressing---My advice is to be around him while you are dressed and see what his reaction is----make sure you tell him about it in advance rather than just showing up on his doorstep en femme.

[miss_sarah]

I saw the "Brenda" story on TV. Very interesting, but we're comparing apples and oranges here. Having someone try a little crossdressing is not at all like asking him to live as a gender that he doesn't identify with. He didn't want to try on the clothing even though he had time to himself, no one around...sounds to me like it just isn't his thing. Other than placing the opportunity in front of him, what can you do? Forced feminization? Husbands have the opportunity to try on feminine clothing all the time, yet most (allegedly) do not. Why? It's not something they are interested in doing. Bottom line, if your friend doesn't want to, don't push it. In today's world, if he decides he wants to, he could do it. And he has your number to call if the urge to try comes along. Leave him alone.

Right, apples and oranges for sure, I was commenting more on "Are cross-dressers made or can they be led into our awesomely wonderful, lacy hobby ?" or the Nature vs. Nurture idea. We could easily say the same thing about sexuality. You know, the guys that think their prowess is so outstanding they want to try a lesbian to see if they can be "de-gayed". I'm merely suggesting that there's probably more to the Nature side of the argument than I usually admit to, in all 3 cases. I agree completely about not trying to push anything on the friend here, let him make the next move, if any at all. :) :thumbsup:

More specifically on the story at hand...

I'm not sure so I told him I crossdress and he was O.K. with it. I am trying to explain to him why I do it and have asked him to try the lingerie feeling himself. He agreed so I brought him over an overnite bag of things to try. The next day he called and said he really didn't want to try "dressing" so I picked up the bag and we haven't spoken of it since...

There's a few missing details here, I think. Like, "he was OK with it" could mean a few different things. I have male friends who are OK with knowing that I dress, but they have no desire to see it, talk about it or think about it. Something surely happened in your friend's mind overnight to change his mind. Was he afraid of something? (anything, afraid you might be interested in more, guilt about even thinking of doing it, etc). The "we haven't spoken of it since" says to me maybe y'all need to talk :) Not a typical manly habit, as we don't typically discuss much more than lawnmowers and beers amongst buddies, but if you really want to know what the situation is, you really should talk to him about it -- in a non-threatening environment, tone, etc. That's my advice ;) Our gender on the whole is ages behind our counterpart mostly because we all keep everything bottled up all the time and don't talk openly. :)

[joni-alice]

like Mother Goose says about the lost sheep:
"leave them alone and they'll come home,wagging their tails behind them."




if they want to

[KathrynW]

I'm sure if cd-ing wasn't something we're all born with, Lacey Leigh would have already written the book ~~>
"How To Be A Successful Crossdresser In 7 Easy Lessons"...
Wait...Wait...she already did write one like that...or at least something like that...
No, seriously...it's in our genes (not jeans). We're stuck with it. It's like the Mafia "you're in for life...".
Trying to convince a normal guy to cd, would be like someone trying to convince me to like football...it ain't happenin...0.02

[Christina Nicole]

I posted about Mr. Reimer elsewhere on the site. His is a particularly sad story. He was unable to cope and killed himself in 2004, I think. Other studies have been performed. They have systematically debunked John Money’s theories of gender. The plus side of these studies is that intersexed babies aren't arbitrarily assigned to one gender or another based upon the doctor's or parent's whim, or which ever sex would be a simpler operation.

The evidence tends to point to crossdressers are "made" not born. Crossdressers dress usually because of a fetish, an experience in childhood, or some other external event. Twins tend not to both be crossdressers, which also helps discredit the notion of born crossdressers. Most crossdressers can point to an event that started them along the path. That event helps indicate that they are made.

Referencing the question at hand. Can a guy be enticed to crossdress? Yes, in some cases. It's entirely dependent upon the individual. Like some people can become interested in someone else's hobby, interests, and passions by exposure to them, while others can't, so probably crossdressing. However, since there is a stigma associated to crossdressing, it's probably easier to get someone interested in developing expertise in wines, or model cars than wearing lingerie. Even among crossdressers, there are differences in interests. Some are interested mostly in lingerie. My interest in lingerie, on the other hand, goes as far as it's just something to wear under my lady's clothing.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Wenda]

As usual, lots of great points of view. One point already made, just because he is gay, doesnt mean he is CD ie, just because we CD, doesnt mean we are gay. Some time, you may see an opportunity to open some discussion of the topic, but if a good opportunity doesnt present itself, I would just let it lie. Good friends are valuable.

[Laura Jane]

Right, apples and oranges for sure, I was commenting more on "Are cross-dressers made or can they be led into our awesomely wonderful, lacy hobby ?" or the Nature vs. Nurture idea. We could easily say the same thing about sexuality. You know, the guys that think their prowess is so outstanding they want to try a lesbian to see if they can be "de-gayed". I'm merely suggesting that there's probably more to the Nature side of the argument than I usually admit to, in all 3 cases. I agree completely about not trying to push anything on the friend here, let him make the next move, if any at all.

The term formative years applies here. I think most of us had our first taste of crossdressing early in life and our brains being a funny creature kind of links a few synapsis and hence we find we crave and desire dressing etc

[connie rotten]

My gay friends call me a differant kind of fruit.They love every thing about manliness and love other men. I love every thing about womanhood and try to mimmic it.
Well ;if you can intrest your friend to dress as a woman cool. But chances are he hasn't sorted any sexual confusion out for himself . If he were my friend I would be more supportive and less medelsome.
I just love being an Ann Landers who can't spell or type well.:D

[ldblake]

Or are we, as crossdressers, born to dress...?

There is no proven science either way but my vote is "Yes" we are born as transgender identified people... we are feminine spirits in male bodies and masculine spirits in female bodies... and no, there's not a damned thing wrong with that.


So...it leads me back to my question and motivating need to be with another, friendly, fun, playful CD....Are crossdressers made or can they be led into our awesomely wonderful, lacy hobby ?
Just as surely as we are born to be transgendered, most people are born Cisgendered (i.e. not transgendered). Like us it's probably an issue of biology as much as anything else... and it's a certainty their Cisgendered state is as real and persistent as our Transgendered one is.

So... no this is a line people don't usually cross.

The one exception to this is in the DOM/SUB culture where a Dominant may dress a Submissive as a woman to embarass them. (It's called "Petticoat Punishment" for those who may be interested in looking it up...)

[ldblake]

The evidence tends to point to crossdressers are "made" not born. Crossdressers dress usually because of a fetish, an experience in childhood, or some other external event. Twins tend not to both be crossdressers, which also helps discredit the notion of born crossdressers. Most crossdressers can point to an event that started them along the path. That event helps indicate that they are made.


Hmmmm... I think you need to give this some more thought hon.

Consider the social and legal pressures most crossdressers grow up under... Everything in their lives --and I do mean everything-- directs them to be Cisgendered. Males get one set of toys, females another. Males are taught one set of lessons, females another. And even in adulthood, Males have one set of social experiences, females another... Still, with all this pressure and the millions of little messages involved some of us follow the transgender path... We do so despite social pressures, not because of them. Is it not fairly obvious that if crossdressing were learned behaviour it would never happen in a society that tries so hard to make sure it can't?

If we aren't born transgendered, then it's gotta be those darned martian mind rays.... 'cause everything in my whole life has told me to be Cisgendered, no matter how unpleasant that might be.

[Katrina]

Hmmmm... I think you need to give this some more thought hon.

Consider the social and legal pressures most crossdressers grow up under... Everything in their lives --and I do mean everything-- directs them to be Cisgendered. Males get one set of toys, females another. Males are taught one set of lessons, females another. And even in adulthood, Males have one set of social experiences, females another... Still, with all this pressure and the millions of little messages involved some of us follow the transgender path... We do so despite social pressures, not because of them. Is it not fairly obvious that if crossdressing were learned behaviour it would never happen in a society that tries so hard to make sure it can't?

If we aren't born transgendered, then it's gotta be those darned martian mind rays.... 'cause everything in my whole life has told me to be Cisgendered, no matter how unpleasant that might be.

I think I might have to agree with a lot of this. Everything in my life has limited my ability to crossdress. Society really limits us and it wasn't until I found myself and started accepting myself that I had the guts to start doing this more out in the open.

[LisaRaye]

like Mother Goose says about the lost sheep:
"leave them alone and they'll come home,wagging their tails behind them."




if they want to

I say dont push the issue, like Joni alice said if thats what he want trust me you will know. mean while just sit back and chill and just be his friend.

good luck with it, and if he is as good of friend that you say he is dont lose him over things that you want to do or see. good friend are hard to come by. so do your best and make it work.
thats my advise to you.:) :)

[Phoebe Reece]

The concepts that crossdressers are either born that way or made that way from some external influence can be argued about forever. There is simply no definitive proof of either case. It's a lot like religion - believe what you will.

Personally, I lean towards the theory that something hormonal happens in the womb to cause a mental condition that will cause one to have a propensity for crossdressing. I haven't read about enough cases of succeding generations of crossdressers to believe it is an inherited gene. However, I do believe that there has to be a triggering event in one's life that will turn on that inborn interest in crossdressing. Many may experience the same triggering event (such as playing dress-up as a child) and come away with no particular interest in crossdressing, while others like ourselves will be forever hooked on it after experiencing that same event. Some don't experience that triggering event until much later in life - such as crossdressers that begin crossdressing for the first time in middle age.

All that said, I seriously doubt that a crossdresser could be intentionally created that didn't already have the inborn (and perhaps unconcious) desire to do so already. And as others have pointed out, there does not appear to be any relationship between sexual orientation and crossdressing. The majority of crossdressers are heterosexual simply because that is what the majority of people are.

[ldblake]

I think I might have to agree with a lot of this. Everything in my life has limited my ability to crossdress. Society really limits us and it wasn't until I found myself and started accepting myself that I had the guts to start doing this more out in the open.


If you think about it we grow up in a world with rules on top of rules. On set of these rules "The Cisgender Rules" are particularly damaging...
1) Everyone is Cisgendered by default
2) It is wrong to be anything but Cisgendered
3) Those who are not Cisgendered must appear Cisgendered
4) Anyone who does not appear Cisgendered is beneath consideration


We grow up with these rules, which actually describe transphobia, drilled into us a couple of hundred times a day. There are NO Transgender heros. The only time you see Transgendered people is as the objects of wonder or derision... everywhere you look it's transphobia on top of transphobia.

If this was a learned behaviour, none of us would ever be transgendered because the lesson is that it's simply not allowed.

I think a lot of transies make a serious mistake in looking only inside themselves for understanding of transgender issues. Yes there is the internal itch that can only be scratched one way. But there is a ton of junk piled all over it by society and that junk informs much of our self-understanding and decision making. Looking at the world around us to understand why we think as we do is just as important as introspection.

Still... In all my experience in the transcommunity I've not yet heard of a single therapist or shrink who ever talks to their patients about the social influences, never mind the more complex issues of Internalized Transphobia and self esteem that all come from those 4 lousy rules.

We don't learn to be transgendered... but we sure do learn to be ashamed of it.

[Falcor]

I not to sure about conversion,we are because we are.


Their is no conversion,we are because we are,why bother delving why?

actually I know why...and that is.......

better a happy little gumnut,
than a glum one.

In my limited capacity at intelligencia,the above is sound and profound

fal xx

[Darlena]

Relax and just let things flow...And know that your friend is just that... a friend ! Don't push him into the catagory that you feel comfortable in. Let him explore on his own.(with your gentle guidance that is) The culmination of it all is true girlhood !

[Monica55cd]

Hi that was an interesting but sad story.... ..I'm a huge Law and Order show fan and i remember an episode that showed that very story... two twin boys.. one made to be a girl at a doctors insitence... one of them commited murder or someting due to it ..sorry i cant remember all the details of the show now...any body else remember seeing it??

[Christina Nicole]

I don't agree the term cisgendered, the arguments behind it, or the politics. The term did not come out of research or studies; it came from the activist wing of the gender movement. I hesitate to put much, if any at all, credence to cisgenderism.

There has been a fair amount of science done on human development in the womb. I have not found any scientific research that points to transgenderism being caused by the biological development process. If anyone has a reference to any journals or articles indicating otherwise, I'd love to see it. Today, the best data indicates that transgenderism is in the mind.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole.

[DonnaT]

There has been a fair amount of science done on human development in the womb. I have not found any scientific research that points to transgenderism being caused by the biological development process. If anyone has a reference to any journals or articles indicating otherwise, I'd love to see it. Today, the best data indicates that transgenderism is in the mind.


http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/news/genes.html

[Helana]

I suspect that it is entirely possible to introduce someone to crossdressing who was not previously aware that they had an interest in it. If they were open minded about it and exposed themselves to the idea for a long enough period of time then they would probably develop some interest in CDing. Most people have some degree of transgenderism to their personality. Few people are 100% masculine or feminine. However what motive would there be for a friend to do this unless he already had an internal desire to explore this for himself?

So yes it may be technically feasible to create a crossdresser but unlikely to happen in real life unless there is an internal motivation. Besides the friend may be asexual, there are plenty of asexual people in this world. The idea that we are all sexual beasts is incorrect.

As for cisgenderism - what possible motivations are there for any other alternative behavior/lifestyles such as being a punk. Nothing in life prepares people to being a punk yet they exist. Unless you believe there is a "punk gene", this alternative lifestyle is a learned behaviour, some people are just attracted to the idea because it suits their personality despite it being anti-social. The same is true for us, we CD because it suits us, it projects what we feel inside. There is no big mystery to it.

[Jan W]

Firstly, great link Donna, you have a happy knack of sourcing great sites.

Secondly, Helena have a think about this. How often is crossdressing passed off as a phase? "He'll grow out of it" How often do we grow out of it?

Being a punk on the other hand is rarely a lifelong condition. I grew up in the punk era and most of those people are no longer living that lifestyle.

We on the other hand do not have the luxury of choice.


Jan the genetically challenged

[Dana]

I don't agree the term cisgendered, the arguments behind it, or the politics. The term did not come out of research or studies; it came from the activist wing of the gender movement. I hesitate to put much, if any at all, credence to cisgenderism.

There has been a fair amount of science done on human development in the womb. I have not found any scientific research that points to transgenderism being caused by the biological development process. If anyone has a reference to any journals or articles indicating otherwise, I'd love to see it. Today, the best data indicates that transgenderism is in the mind.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole.

Again from Dr. Doctor's (which has subsequently been de~bunked here on the forum ~ but which in its day ~ at least was someone looking for answers to the questions ~ and solutions to the problems) the theory was that all human embroyes are esssentially female the frist six to eight weeks of conception ~ and that for an embroye to develepe into a male than "something" extra" had to be added ~ a masculinizing hormoal wash in the womb. Otherwise the default was for the emborye to develope along the feminine path.

The "therory" at the time was that while there may be suffficient hormones to masculinize the body, in and of for some reason there was insuffiecent hormones to masculinise the brain to it completion ~ thus some males are born either as transexuals or otherwise TG to some varying degree.

Obviosuly in the light of modern day research ~ as posted in this thread ~ this is not the entire and complete truth ~ there is more to all of this than meets the eye. And, the hormonal wash theory is in-suffiecent to explain gender dysphoria.

Again, as said as it is to admitt the fact we live in a prejudice world, where educated and informed people are the exception and not the norm. It IS an absoulte fact of life that the world is populated with people that are ill-informed, un-educated, illiterate and most of all people such as myself that can't spell to save their lives! (I just can't spell for #@%%~! OK! I'm working on it!)

[Dana]

Or are we, as crossdressers, born to dress...?

Quick story then maybe I can get some feedback from all you supportive ladies.

I have been a long time CD within loving relationships with women. Now I find myself wanting to spend time with another crossdresser for dressing, relaxing and maybe some playtime. My good friend, Bill, hasen't had a relationship with a woman for about 6-7 years and resists or sabatages the possibilities with women he does date. My other friends and family thinks he is gay. I'm not sure so I told him I crossdress and he was O.K. with it. I am trying to explain to him why I do it and have asked him to try the lingerie feeling himself. He agreed so I brought him over an overnite bag of things to try. The next day he called and said he really didn't want to try "dressing" so I picked up the bag and we haven't spoken of it since...this was about 2 months ago yet we continue to golf and watch sports at bars.

So...it leads me back to my question and motivating need to be with another, friendly, fun, playful CD....Are crossdressers made or can they be led into our awesomely wonderful, lacy hobby ?


Me? I live in the Deep South of the United States. We slaughter the English laungae! Just slauther it! If you were to hear me actually speaking these words ~ you'd wonder why I wasn't on the redneck comedy channel.

One of the things that I've picked up on the other day ~ that spoke volumes of wisdom ~ was from a co-worker ~ who is of Afriacn lineage ~! He said, "Either you is, or you ain't!"

That's the deal with being a crossdresser, TG, ~ whatever title you choose to place upoin yourself! For me? And I dare speak for the majority being a crossdresser isn't something I choose! Its cost me two serious long term relationships with GG, its cost me my marriage, its cost me a world of hurt, heartache, grief, heartbreak, worry, stress, sleepless nights! It cost me big TIME finacncially.

In hindsight ~ not that that's a bad thing! To get from where I was ~ to where I am! Its something that I had to go through! Something I had to learn from ~ and someting that I had to grow from!

One of the things that I learned from the Marine Corps ~ is that pain is and can be good! Not that I'm into all of this SM/BD stuff! But in the sense that it teaches you ~ you learn from it ~ you grow from it! For example the first time you stuck your hand into an open flame ~ you sure as Hell learned not to do it a second time!

The first time you got involved with a GG, and were in denial about who and what you are as a person ~ in denial ~ and then went through all that pain ~ you sure as Hell learned NOT to do that again!

He tried it ~ it wasn't for him! Either you is or you're not! I wouldn't push the issue! Let it ride ~ let it slide ~ and go easy!

Those that know ~ know! Those that understand ~ understand! Those that don't ~ DON'T! And will never get it!

Me? I truly believe that all of this would be easier, ~ much easier if I had just been born gay ~ but I'm not! Maybe, TS ~ but I'm not! Perhaps bi-sexaual ~ but I'm not! But, I will tell you I'm TG ~ to the extent that I have a want, a need, a desire to dress in women's clothes, jewelry, makeup ~ to express and all the more experience femininity~!

Explain it? I can't explain it! I can't explain it to someone else ~ because I can't explain it to myself! I can't rationalize it! I can't define it! I can't corale it! I can't pin it up into any given box!

[carolynhcd]

no, you can't convert him. I have tried and tried. Don't waste your time or hopes. There are lots of girls like us out there, so you don't need to convert anyone

[Helana]

Being a punk on the other hand is rarely a lifelong condition. I grew up in the punk era and most of those people are no longer living that lifestyle.


I suspect that they are still punks at heart even if they no longer look like one. And I wonder how many had to give up the lifestyle because they were unemployable....

True, there is an inner mechanism which drives CDs and makes it a complusion but essentially being a CD is still an alternative lifestyle expression except we are not rebelling against society as a whole but against gender stereotypes.

[joni-alice]

Taking a genetic route to CD does not do justice to oneself. In a sense, it is a mental copout. One should give herself credit for the ability to see the irrationality of society, being able to go in a different direction, choosing her own lifestyle and persevering despite sometimes overwhelming odds and disappointments. Sooner or later, we will be blaming everything on jeans, even poor spelling.
Love,
j-a:cool:

[carolynhcd]

You are right, Joni-Alice. Carl Jung said that the only sane response to an insane world is an insane one.

[susandrea]

SOMEDAY! I will find the documentary I saw a couple years ago that showed, quite convincingly, that gender identity had a great deal to do with two glands in the brain, in relation to their size.

Many factors could influence these glands (one determined physical gender expression and the other influenced emotional gender expression), including age, hormones, injury, drugs, and simply the brain itself.

It explained, in an amazing way, how it could be that birth gender did not always win out, and also how a "man" built like a brick house could feel very femme inside, how someone born male could be female in every other way, why some are gay and some are not, ect., ect., ect. It was fascinating, and backed up through scientific research. It cetrtainly made sense, and in a very easy way to SEE, not just theorize.

The tiniest, microscopic change in the size of these glands could cause a big gender identity shift, explaining how people could change in their feelings about themselves over time, or resist society's definition of "male OR female" only labels. And, of course, the clues given by the brain from these glands are filtered through social influences, personal will, lifetimes choices, experiences, and personality.

Just as one identical twin can develop Alzheimers while the other doesn't, these glands, and their minute differences, could also account for one transgendered twin while the other is not.

I have to find that Documentary. It's driving me nuts.

[steve]

here's my two penneth, first of all truely gay men like men not men trying to be women. secondly my thoughts are that when we fetuses or even earler we start life as women, and at a surtan stage of developement the male hormone kicks in in a big way, and hey prestoe we have a boy child, were the opersite is true we have a girl child, but the are mirriad differences in between, coverring the whole gamet of sexuality, and to answer the first question he has started the ball rolling so let bill alone and he may come around, but please dont put preasure on him, that truely would freak him out.
p.s be the friend you say you are, and let him get used to the idea. pps please excuse the spelling.

[Aileen]

I've read a lot of stories in which a guy is forced to crossdress and winds up loving it, as though any man would love it if he gave it a try. I don't think it works that way, though. It's like learning to be a midget. You either are or you aren't. ( line stolen from a Woody Allen movie )

[Dana]

Taking a genetic route to CD does not do justice to oneself. In a sense, it is a mental copout. One should give herself credit for the ability to see the irrationality of society, being able to go in a different direction, choosing her own lifestyle and persevering despite sometimes overwhelming odds and disappointments. Sooner or later, we will be blaming everything on jeans, even poor spelling.
Love,
j-a:cool:

:mad: Hey!!!!!!!!! Being a lousy speller isn't genticly induced! I own that! That's mine!:) ;)

[Dana]

SOMEDAY! I will find the documentary I saw a couple years ago that showed, quite convincingly, that gender identity had a great deal to do with two glands in the brain, in relation to their size.

Many factors could influence these glands (one determined physical gender expression and the other influenced emotional gender expression), including age, hormones, injury, drugs, and simply the brain itself.

It explained, in an amazing way, how it could be that birth gender did not always win out, and also how a "man" built like a brick house could feel very femme inside, how someone born male could be female in every other way, why some are gay and some are not, ect., ect., ect. It was fascinating, and backed up through scientific research. It cetrtainly made sense, and in a very easy way to SEE, not just theorize.

The tiniest, microscopic change in the size of these glands could cause a big gender identity shift, explaining how people could change in their feelings about themselves over time, or resist society's definition of "male OR female" only labels. And, of course, the clues given by the brain from these glands are filtered through social influences, personal will, lifetimes choices, experiences, and personality.

Just as one identical twin can develop Alzheimers while the other doesn't, these glands, and their minute differences, could also account for one transgendered twin while the other is not.

I have to find that Documentary. It's driving me nuts.


I definately recall reading an article about a man who had had a stroke, and who though had previously been strictly male all of his life ~ after suffering brain damage from the stroke begin displaying distinctly femininie charteristics and traits.

I also read about a distraught TS who attempted suicide with a pistol to the head, and in effect survived ~ and in effect performing a frontal lombodmy ~ and thereafter was not inclined toward being a TS.

I'm not saying any of what I've posted are ABSOLUTES~ in fact I'm a strong advocate for free will ~ and self expresion. Speaking strickly for myself ~ since there is such a wide spectram of the and intertwined matrix when it comes to this subject and any radomly chossen indiviual ~ Me? I would STILL be a cross dresser if I NEVER indulged in any aspect of crossdressing, to any degree ~ at any level.

[Dana]

SOMEDAY! I will find the documentary I saw a couple years ago that showed, quite convincingly, that gender identity had a great deal to do with two glands in the brain, in relation to their size.

Many factors could influence these glands (one determined physical gender expression and the other influenced emotional gender expression), including age, hormones, injury, drugs, and simply the brain itself.

It explained, in an amazing way, how it could be that birth gender did not always win out, and also how a "man" built like a brick house could feel very femme inside, how someone born male could be female in every other way, why some are gay and some are not, ect., ect., ect. It was fascinating, and backed up through scientific research. It cetrtainly made sense, and in a very easy way to SEE, not just theorize.

The tiniest, microscopic change in the size of these glands could cause a big gender identity shift, explaining how people could change in their feelings about themselves over time, or resist society's definition of "male OR female" only labels. And, of course, the clues given by the brain from these glands are filtered through social influences, personal will, lifetimes choices, experiences, and personality.

Just as one identical twin can develop Alzheimers while the other doesn't, these glands, and their minute differences, could also account for one transgendered twin while the other is not.

I have to find that Documentary. It's driving me nuts.


I definately recall reading an article about a man who had had a stroke, and who though had previously been strictly male all of his life ~ after suffering brain damage from the stroke begin displaying distinctly femininie charteristics and traits.

I also read about a distraught TS who attempted suicide with a pistol to the head, and in effect survived ~ and in effect performing a frontal lombodmy ~ and thereafter was not inclined toward being a TS.

I'm not saying any of what I've posted are ABSOLUTES~ in fact I'm a strong advocate for free will ~ and self expresion. Speaking strickly for myself ~ since there is such a wide spectram of the and intertwined matrix when it comes to this subject and any radomly chossen indiviual ~ Me? I would STILL be a cross dresser if I NEVER indulged in any aspect of crossdressing, to any degree ~ at any level.

In the end who I am as an individual and as a person ~ is NOT defined by what I was born with between my legs, but more so with what I was born with between my ears. And, the same can be true for any other given individual. Whey do some people prefer red over blue? Why do some people perfer a well done steak to a rare?

[Aileen]

Joke:

Geneticists claim that they can now cure lesbianism, now that they've located the gene that causes it.

Now all they need to locate is a lesbian who wants to be cured.

[susandrea]

Joke:

Geneticists claim that they can now cure lesbianism, now that they've located the gene that causes it.

Now all they need to locate is a lesbian who wants to be cured.

One of the things that I particurly liked about that documentary, is that their explaination of how someone determines their gender and sexuality means that there are so many, many shades of gray that there really is no such thing as "normal".

[Helana]

Taking a genetic route to CD does not do justice to oneself. In a sense, it is a mental copout. One should give herself credit for the ability to see the irrationality of society, being able to go in a different direction, choosing her own lifestyle and persevering despite sometimes overwhelming odds and disappointments. Sooner or later, we will be blaming everything on jeans, even poor spelling.
Love,
j-a:cool:

Yes I see it that way too, a cop-out so that you do not have to examine yourself too much and say its not your fault. There are people out there claiming that they have identified genes for rapists and serial killers....its not their fault, they were compelled to rape and kill:rolleyes: When does personal responsibility start?

Also just because you were born with a personality that does not neatly fit into society's definition of gender roles does not automatically mean you will become a CD. At the end of the day we choose to act on our feelings, we choose to crossdress, we liked it and continued to do so further reinforcing our crossdressing feelings. We could have choosen not to act our our feelings and not become crossdressers. But since this usually happens during our childhood we did not fully understand what we were choosing so it is all water under the bridge now.

Personally I am happy that I saw through the absurdity of social conditioning and gender stereotypes and I am not living in the black and white, brainwashed dreamworld that "normal" people live in, content to hold onto their prejudices because they cannot be bothered to think for themselves.;)

[Christina Nicole]

Yes I see it that way too, a cop-out so that you do not have to examine yourself too much and say its not your fault. There are people out there claiming that they have identified genes for rapists and serial killers....its not their fault, they were compelled to rape and kill:rolleyes: When does personal responsibility start?

Also just because you were born with a personality that does not neatly fit into society's definition of gender roles does not automatically mean you will become a CD. At the end of the day we choose to act on our feelings, we choose to crossdress, we liked it and continued to do so further reinforcing our crossdressing feelings. We could have choosen not to act our our feelings and not become crossdressers. But since this usually happens during our childhood we did not fully understand what we were choosing so it is all water under the bridge now.

Personally I am happy that I saw through the absurdity of social conditioning and gender stereotypes and I am not living in the black and white, brainwashed dreamworld that "normal" people live in, content to hold onto their prejudices because they cannot be bothered to think for themselves.;)

A good posting. That is, up to the third paragraph. I would imagine that normal people do not feel brainwashed nor do they feel prejudiced. That you disagree with their position in such a manner is intolerance. You think you are right. They think that they are. Some of “them” don't even bother to think about it since it's not a problem for them. There are thousand of issues and non-issues that confront people everyday. Some are ignored because of ignorance. Some have to be ignored to avoid becoming overwhelmed or simply feeling overwhelmed. Do you think about the problems of living in Bangladesh? What about living under Robert Mugabe? Those issues are of paramount importance to the people dealing with them. Those who do have to live with those issues very well may consider us living in a brainwashed dream world. Certainly their problems are a bit more critical to their survival, yet who thinks about that in this country? Yet there are thousands of words devoted to panties on this site.

I have not done much reading on GID related topics for the last few years, which was the time of my last purge. There exist a fair number of new studies. Unfortunately, none are readily accessible over the Internet. They require a subscription or a fee. I'm not all that interested in the topic, so I will not spend several hundred dollars to get access to the articles. Many were performed with government grant money, so I'm doubly annoyed. First the government takes my money to fund the study and then the publisher wants more.

It appears that many of the references to these articles, like the link posted above, are postings based on a third party's reading of the study, an article about the study, or perhaps just the abstract of the study. Since it is unclear how remote the posting is from the text of the original study, that is, whether the posting is from a reading of the study, an article about the study, or even further generations apart and since the qualification of the people who wrote about the study are not provided, credibility is difficult to establish.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Helana]

A good posting. That is, up to the third paragraph. I would imagine that normal people do not feel brainwashed nor do they feel prejudiced. That you disagree with their position in such a manner is intolerance. You think you are right. They think that they are. Some of “them” don't even bother to think about it since it's not a problem for them. There are thousand of issues and non-issues that confront people everyday. Some are ignored because of ignorance. Some have to be ignored to avoid becoming overwhelmed or simply feeling overwhelmed. Do you think about the problems of living in Bangladesh? What about living under Robert Mugabe? Those issues are of paramount importance to the people dealing with them. Those who do have to live with those issues very well may consider us living in a brainwashed dream world. Certainly their problems are a bit more critical to their survival, yet who thinks about that in this country? Yet there are thousands of words devoted to panties on this site.



Hi Christina

I am aware that I have my own point of view that is no more "right" than anyone else. The point I was trying to make is at least I have thought about this and many other issues. Being a CD has made me live a life outside the box and has changed my outlook. My opinions on matters are my own and are not spoon fed to me. The reason political spin works so well is that people are content to be handed positions because it means they do not need to spend time considering it themselves. I always look for the opposing points of view, I often play devils advocate to get others to think for themselves.

I also live in Asia so the problems of the third world are apparent to me everyday. Your point about atrocious regimes like Zimbabwe precisely illustrates my point. If people took the time to think about the lives of people in the third world then we would force our leaders to do something about it. The reason why nothing changes is because our leaders know their people too well, they know the average person does not care what happens elsewhere.

So I stand by my quotation. People know they are being brainwashed and allow it to happen in exactly the same way people know eating junk food will make them fat but they dont care about that either. I realise if everybody did think for themselves then this would not eradicate prejudice as some people really do think that way, but many others would realise that their prejudiced positions did not reflect who they were and would actively change.

It is not a question of being right, it is a question of thinking for yourself, being true to yourself and being tolerant of people who look or behave differently.

[alise]

It is a non sens trying to "convert" someone to CDing. As Susan said, it's in our brain and nowhere else. How did you went to CDing ? Just because of your inermost (dont' know if it's right, something from the deep inside) desire; isnt' it ? If i'm crossdressing, it's not just for the fun of getting dressed up, it's just because i feel it, i need it for being myself.

Alise


He said no. I'd let it go.

I believe CDing desires stem from the way the brain is wired.

Many people have relationship problems that aren't related to their sexual preferences.

He may have issues you know nothing about (like past abuse, ect.) and aren't qualified to help him with-- except to gently urge him to see a therapist for his own good. But if he resists, just continue to be his friend and listen to him. :)

[Lawren]

Ahhh, yes. Another impossible Question. I don't think you can convert anyone into anything unless they really believe that the change will benefit them in some way. That said, there is of course, the curiosity factor. If he does not either or both of these concepts I doubt that you will ever convert him. He really has to have some reason/desire to try new things. Then there is the "fear factor" which may well be the one mitigating factor that he can't/won't overcome. It is a very interesting query though and makes good food for thoght. Good luck in your search for some one to dress and have fun with.