Going back

[arbon]

Sometimes you hear people that have decided to de-transition, even post-ops.

Usually it seems to have to do with them not being happy once they transitioned or it was not what they expected. Like it did not fix what really needed to be fixed within them.


It kind of gives me some pause, because I am sure that earlier in their transition they were just as sure it was the right thing to do, and driven to do it, like most all of us are. But they ended up being wrong? It was all a mistake?

Last night reading one of these de-transition stories made me ask myself if I have been wrong, have I somehow convinced myself of something that really was not the right thing to do? How do you really know? If I was wrong, could I be open to that and accept it?


The benefits of transitioning have been very real for me - I don't experience the intense depression, anxiety, and self loathing that seemed centered around my gender anywhere near like I used to. I still have plenty of issues, I'm not always happy happy joy joy I'm a girl now, life is still life. Its just that its a lot better then it was and I simply function better and feel okay with me now. And I have not even had any surgeries yet.

Looking at those positives I have experienced it seems transitioning was the right path for me to go down. So why wasn't it for these people that go back? Why didn't they experience positives from transitioning the way most (I hope) do?

[gonegirl]

I don't know the answer to those questions, T, but I sincerely hope that such a realization doesn't befall anyone. It's so horrible I can hardly bear to think about it.....

[I Am Paula]

I sometimes get those 3 a.m. WTF moments where I'm sure I have made a terrible mistake. These always resolve themselves by first light, but what causes us to suddenly doubt something we were so darn sure of before? I don't think I would/could ever go back, but, are those thoughts possibly harbingers of something to come? What if I discovered I wasn't TS at all, and I've been living some sub-conscious fantasy?
Frankly, my bigger fear (3 a.m. WTF moment 2.1) is that my Dr. will find some malady that forces me to quit HRT. I honestly don't know how I could deal with that.

[Kathryn Martin]

I read these stories and my reaction is that it is just another transvestite gone to seed. Two issues arise: the person should not have, under any circumstances transition in the first place and secondly the gatekeeping system failed them. For them this was obviously a fantasy gone wrong. All of those questions were resolved long before I transitioned. I would not have otherwise.

And I want to be clear, I place a lot of blame at the feet of the de-transitioner. He hurts all legitimate transsexuals transitioning.

[Angela Campbell]

I don't know. I have WTF moments, but only in that there is fear of situations that may arise as a result of transition. Like losing a job or family member. It never is a question of whether I want to transition or if it is right for me, hell I have wanted this since I was four! After that many years I know it is right, never for one day of that 50 years did I not want to be a girl.

That said, I have met some who either have transitioned, or are transitioning and my personal opinion is that they are not a woman inside at all. They seem happy enough though. I asked the same kind of questions of my therapist and we had long discussions on the subject. I wanted to make sure I was not fooling myself, and after a while he told me he had no doubts that I am a woman and that I am making good decisions. I am probably the one patient he was the most sure of in his practice. He was not telling me anything I didn't know but it helped me to be more confident that I was making decisions based on reality and not fantasy. I am pretty sure some do though


I think I would prefer death to going back. It would be about the same thing

[kimdl93]

If the benefits have been real, then I would submit that you made the right choice. I've observed that some people here may be looking for a panacea and mistakenly think they will find it in transition.

[arbon]

I sometimes get those 3 a.m. WTF moments where I'm sure I have made a terrible mistake.

I have had those to, days when it is really apparent what I have done and knowing how much I stand out as a tranny in this community - but those thoughts are always short lived when I remember what it was like before.

And there were times I had more serious doubts to, especially when I was dealing with all the fallout of having come out (family, job, money, friends). Things were hard for a while and I would question if it was all going to be worth it in the end. But I stayed the course and got through those things.

Which is what I don't get. If someone has gotten through all the real hard stuff and completely upended their life, how could they just turn and go back? What drove them to continue down that road, even to have surgery, if it was not right for them? I wonder how many were just driven by the hope they were going to feel the way they wanted to feel when they got around the next bend, but it just never came. That would suck.

[Angela Campbell]

I already feel like I want to feel from this, so far so good I guess.

[Badtranny]

Why didn't they experience positives from transitioning the way most (I hope) do?

There is only ONE positive change that transition brings;

Freedom.

If you're looking for anything else, then you're looking in the wrong place.

[ReineD]

Looking at those positives I have experienced it seems transitioning was the right path for me to go down. So why wasn't it for these people that go back? Why didn't they experience positives from transitioning the way most (I hope) do?

Because they aren't transsexual?

People who are gender variant would be just as unhappy living as a woman full time as they are living strictly as a man. Maybe they think that if they are unhappy living binary-male, then they would be happier being binary-female? But ultimately their best bet is to find a balance outside the gender binary, which is hugely challenging, since none of us have any models for this. We all just see males or females around us.

My SO accomplishes this by having very loose gender definitions for herself and by alternating gender expressions. S/he does not identify as a crossdresser.

[Kimberly Kael]

I read these stories and my reaction is that it is just another transvestite gone to seed.

[...]

And I want to be clear, I place a lot of blame at the feet of the de-transitioner. He hurts all legitimate transsexuals transitioning.

This all comes across as incredibly judgmental. Circumstances vary, and while I agree that there are clearly many cases where expectations weren't aligned and someone should have known better, I don't think "gone to seed" or "blame" are helpful phrases in assessing what went wrong. I understand there's frustration regarding society at large questioning our legitimacy more when someone de-transitions, but our beef should be with societal rules and misconceptions that have been the problem all along. We don't blame poor perception of the medical profession on people dropping out of med school. A pretty widely accepted test to see if you're transsexual is through Real Life Experience, which requires that you be diagnosed as transsexual. A bit of circular reasoning there that leads inevitably to this problem.

... and then there are other definition dances. Many have gone out of their way to make it clear that they won't accept that someone is TS without at least HRT, if not more. So what happens when someone turns out to have a medical condition that pretty much guarantees that long-term HRT will result in death? This happened recently to someone I know, and he wound up de-transitioning. I can't imagine taking that path, myself, as I'd rather put up with all the nay-sayers and continue to live as a woman regardless, but that's just me. His life obviously took another path. The world isn't black and white. There aren't many either/or situations but rather a whole lot of shades of gray.

If it were simple, the whole concept of trans identities wouldn't exist at all.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm not 100% sure here but I'd say that the questioning is a good indicator that you're approaching this, like any other major thing in life, with lots of thought and reflection.
Every now and then I'll read something that makes me take time out to pause and reflect alone at how I feel and where I'm going.

[KellyJameson]

Transitioning cannot be in any shape or form a male fantasy to be a woman. If it is driven by the desire to escape being a man whether because events have transpired to turn you against yourself from the hate you have absorbed from others or from failure as a man who "has identified as a man" or to replace a woman in your life with yourself you will have serious problems.

I have seen many transition who I still experience as men and nothing they do can hide this. It is very distinctive and very masculine and makes it impossible to relate to them as a woman.

There is a reason and it is called gender identity.

You must search your soul to know why you identify as a woman.

This identity should feel like a calling that whispers to you always telling you something is wrong even before you know what and when you discover what this calling and whispering has always been about you will feel like someone opened a valve inside your head releasing all this built up pressure.

You will know it as an epiphany like a switch was thrown in your head and you see everything clearly.

You will feel the truth of this discovery permeate every fiber of your body and no one will be able to stand in your way once you now this truth that has been kept from you.

You will live without doubt and the conviction that you are a woman will be experienced as "but of course" and you will reflect back over your life and see how life has always been trying to tell you this truth.

The freedom comes from living truthfully so if lies, self deception, vanity, narcisssium, autogynephilia or any other reason other than having been "made" into a woman so is the only natural and possible outcome of the ultimate expression of the self as "identity" than you will suffer after transitioning.

It is alot of work yet it also feels effortless because it is the natural expression of who you are versus the unnatural way you were living before.

The paradox of this truth is "to know it" you must "go into it and live it".

Once you transition you finally feel like you can breathe and relax into an experience that feels right.

[Badtranny]

Holy crap Kelly that was brilliant.

[sandra-leigh]

This all comes across as incredibly judgmental.

Kathryn has boundaries about what she considers "transsexual" to be, and although those boundaries are not as rigid as some of the members who have been absent for a time, her boundaries can be a bit sharp-edged. She tends to express those boundaries more often than others of the regulars, but it appears to me that some of the other regulars substantially agree with her but do not tend to write about the boundaries as clearly.

I would put the boundaries at different places than Kathryn would, and I would not be as sharp edged about the boundaries. Sometimes I think the boundaries are like driving cross-country and trying to pick the exact point at which you start being "close to home".

I wonder, for example, what is the key milestone in transition that, if one retreats to, one's detransition reflects a "failure" or reflects "having gone to seed"? If you are on HRT and have an SRS date, and you grow a Movember mustache, did you go to seed? If I'm 24/7, out to my employers, but legally change my name back to my male name, then did the gatekeepers fail to do their job properly, or am I dealing with an F*ing aggravating professional credentialing issue? How about if I have changed my legal name to Sandra but later change it to the more ambiguous Sandy? In doing so, would I be hurting "all legitimate transsexuals transitioning", or only (say) 68.27% of "legitimate transsexuals transitioning" ?

If I get into my RLE and discover 8 months in that I can't hack it and take steps back, then I should never "under any circumstances" have transitioned that far in the first place, and the system failed? Or did the system work properly by having put in that buffer time for people to drop out of before it is too late for them?

In an earlier thread I started, we discussed not being sure one is doing the right thing, and that at some point one needs to climb the mountain or jump off the cliff. That one must do and then deal. That one cannot know without jumping. And if the answer after jumping comes back that I wasn't quite ready yet, then was jumping a failure, or was it courageous? To face one's fear and go on, knowing that hurt likely lies ahead? To be at the top of the cliff and to be 100% sure about the jump is to be delusional enough to think one will be able to fly if the backup and reserve parachutes fail to deploy -- that or to be completely certain that being down and quadraplegic from a bad fall would be better than staying "up" any longer.

[Angela Campbell]

I have heard as all of us have about those who go back. I think it it relatively rare (in a condition that is already rare) but it is more publicized in an effort to give those who do not understand this or accept transsexuality at all a justification to be negative about it. Kind of like "see there"

Case in point is the reporter who publicly sensationalized HIS transition and then very quickly denounced it. This was not a transsexual at all but a publicity hound trying to enhance his career.

The truth is the gatekeepers are not always all that diligent, and sometimes too strict and both of these are not good, but it is human nature. The reality is no therapist can really diagnose you, you have to do it yourself (with guidance of course) and someone with a persistent fantasy and the right information could easily get past the gatekeepers. They do so at there own peril.

Then again who am I to say someone else is wrong and making the step when they should not? I never lived their life, I cannot feel what is inside of their head. I can barely understand what is inside of mine. But still I cannot fault someone who makes a bad decision because this is a terrible decision to make and it is made during a huge amount of distress, so it is natural that some have problems when doing this.

[LeaP]

Holy crap Kelly that was brilliant.

Yeah that.

[Angela Campbell]

This identity should feel like a calling that whispers to you always telling you something is wrong even before you know what and when you discover what this calling and whispering has always been about you will feel like someone opened a valve inside your head releasing all this built up pressure.

.

This especially. I have never seen it described so well.

[Sara Jessica]

I read these stories and my reaction is that it is just another transvestite gone to seed...

Very dismissive statement of something that is a very real phenomena in our community.

A dear friend of mine did this very thing and ultimately paid the price with her life. She happened to be a rather public figure as well and the tranny police were very quick to judge her as "just another transvestite gone to seed", using your expression.

I'm no shrink but I'm here to say that any such criticism was highly unfair (read: inaccurate) and it very well may have contributed to her demise. But at the end of the day, based upon her own words to me along with anecdotes shared by others, she died of a broken heart.

That said, would the same judgement be passed on the de-transitioner who perhaps found that the heat of being under the gender microscope day after day after day too intense? Is that person "just another transvestite gone to seed" because they simply became worn out with what society was dishing back to them?

It's so unfair to paint others with such a broad brush. The Muggles do it to us frequently. Kind of ironic that some feel the need to do it to each other as well. A little empathy goes a long way towards understanding of the human condition.

[Rachel Smith]

deleted by me

[Michelle.M]

If I get into my RLE and discover 8 months in that I can't hack it and take steps back, then I should never "under any circumstances" have transitioned that far in the first place, and the system failed?

No. There are so many variables in a transition, and "the system" is just one of them. And for what it's worth, it seems likely that the transition process in the US is much less like a "system" than it is in Canada. The benefit of a nationalized health system wherein GRS is paid for by the government requires something like a gatekeeping system to ensure public funds are being properly used.

In the US we have no such organized gatekeeping system, and the closest we come to a system of any sort is the voluntary use of WPATH standards by therapists and health care providers. For us, the care we obtain is somewhat of an a la carte affair. This is why transition in the US can be more challenging, and it also induces more variables into a transition.


Or did the system work properly by having put in that buffer time for people to drop out of before it is too late for them?

Yes! This is exactly why we do RLE. It's a chance to be certain that full transition is the right course of action. Dropping out of transition is not failure, it's self-discovery. It means the process has done exactly what it was meant to do.

Now, detransitioning after surgery? That should make us look very hard at the psychological profile of the person, which would probably be found to be far more complex than anyone realized. And FWIW, some of these people have made a life career out of concealing their real selves from therapists and they become fairly proficient at that.

Then what about the path the person took to transition? I always ask myself if the person worked with a therapist who followed WPATH standards or if the person attempted to transition using the ICATH approach. Informed consent is fine for some, but I think most of us could benefit from a little supervision as we make this most significant life change ever. We have no data to discuss, but I'd bet that most, if not all post-op detransitioners probably sidestepped or sabotaged their own therapy at every turn.


That said, would the same judgement be passed on the de-transitioner who perhaps found that the heat of being under the gender microscope day after day after day too intense? Is that person "just another transvestite gone to seed" because they simply became worn out with what society was dishing back to them?

Excellent point! And I should point out that my remarks refer to those who detransition and later go on to denounce the transgender community and therapists and physicians who provide care to those of us in transition. They frequently blame their failure to find peace on others, and this only denies their own issues.

We all know that the critical view of gender issues we face can be such a crushing burden to some. It never occurred to me that this could also come from within our own camp.

[bas1985]

In Italy some years ago we had a famous case of a church organist that publicly announced
her intention to be a female. You know the scandal, "he" was the lead organist in the Lecce cathedral.

I have the link, but it is in Italian... never mind.

well, of course he was fired on the spot... and later he announced her desire to de-transition and
to return to be the church organist.

Well, this was not so welcomed by the trans community I follow, he was considered like a crossdresser gone nuts or
something like that

[Angela Campbell]

It takes amazing strength to transition and not everyone will find they are strong enough or that the need is enough. The truth is the medical and psychological treatments are in their infancy because the medical community and society at large does not want to spend much time or money working on it and simply finds it easier to ignore it.

[Ariamythe]

Considering that the entire phenomenon of transgenderism is still not well understood by science and medicine -- not what causes it, not what triggers it, not how efficacious any given therapy or treatment it -- I think it's impossible to speculate as to why some women detransition and some don't. Certainly, we can say that "Transitioning was the wrong choice for them," but beyond that there's no clear answers. It's as individual as we are.

Or, heck, maybe transition *WAS* the right choice for them, but they went about it the wrong way. Or maybe they did it right, but lacked the kind of social and emotional support necessary to make it succeed. Or maybe they have some other underlying condition that triggered / interfered with / helped / hurt their transgenderism. We just don't know.

[Angela Campbell]

not just "the wrong choice" but maybe the wrong time as well?

[Ariamythe]

Excellent point. Timing is everything.

[arbon]

A pretty widely accepted test to see if you're transsexual is through Real Life Experience, which requires that you be diagnosed as transsexual. A bit of circular reasoning there that leads inevitably to this problem.


Anyone can get a name change and start living as the opposite sex without a diagnoses. Even HRT.

[Kathryn Martin]

Kimberly and Sara,

There may be a million shades of grey in describing individuals but the act of transition is black and white. Trans identity has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don't care how you identify but if you transition (to whatever you want to transition to) you better be prepared to meet that challenge. The world will be sitting with bated breath for you to screw up just to have their judgements confirmed. If you are unable to meet that challenge then you should not have transitioned. We are given no quarter and anything short of perfection will occasion enormous pressure. Wake up people, transition is hard, harsh and it sucks. When you get through you will have benefits but for us to excuse those that de-transition is making fools of ourselves and the struggle it takes to make it through.

[whowhatwhen]

Ah right, what the de-transitioners need is derision and to be shunned rather than compassion and support.
Lord knows above all else is appeasing the cisfolk.

[Ariamythe]

I don't care how you identify but if you transition (to whatever you want to transition to) you better be prepared to meet that challenge. The world will be sitting with bated breath for you to screw up just to have their judgements confirmed. If you are unable to meet that challenge then you should not have transitioned.
Wow. So all transwomen -- often confused, depressed, hiding for years, suffering scorn in those whom they come out to, and facing a medical system that doesn't fully understand (or that can't or won't help them) -- are expected to have perfect, unflawed judgement when it comes time to transition? I'm sorry, but that is an indefensible point of view. IF the world were perfect, and IF medical and psychiatric treatment were consistent across state and country lines, and IF the considtion of transgender were better understood, and IF society in general wasn't full of horrible people, then maybe you'd have a point. But given the world we live in, you're coming off as insensitive.

[LeaP]

Anyone can get a name change and start living as the opposite sex without a diagnoses. Even HRT.

Yes they can, but I sure don't envy anyone in that position. I doubt that I could do it, knowing full well what my psychological state was prior to HT.


...I think it's impossible to speculate as to why some women detransition and some don't.

Sure we can, because those who do detransition often (usually?) say why. I agree it's individual, but there are some very common themes.


Very dismissive statement of something that is a very real phenomena in our community.
...
It's so unfair to paint others with such a broad brush.

Well - maybe. I see a material difference between openly expressing a reaction, as Kathryn did, versus passing judgement when acquainted with the facts of a particular case. And someone who should not have transitioned because they were a crossdresser (though usually expressed in other terms like "I found I wasn't really TS") is one of those common themes.

My reaction is typically that someone was not prepared. I realize that this proceeds from my own biases and views, of course - so much that I find it hard to imagine otherwise - but I'm ultimately good with discovering other facts and circumstances, too.

I'm not one to wave away the importance of support, but I also have to recognize the universal caution that transition is brutal regardless of support, and that SOMETHING has to be in play to overcome the challenge, whether that is preparation, raw intensity, sheer courage, not giving a crap about others, or whatever.

The easiest detransition scenario for me not to put into some failure context is someone who prepared but nonetheless could not make a living. But do check with me over the next year, as I see how my own transition goes. LOL!

[Ariamythe]

LeaP, the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data. Sure, we can listen to their stories and their after-the-fact self-analysis of why they think they detransitioned, but since we don't know all of the very complicated circumstances surrounding their decision to transition in the first place, and since after a failed transition many women may be seeking explanations, excuses, or justifications, even their subjective analysis of their own experience is suspect.

[Angela Campbell]

Sometimes you hear people that have decided to de-transition, even post-ops.

Usually it seems to have to do with them not being happy once they transitioned or it was not what they expected. Like it did not fix what really needed to be fixed within them.




In this particular scenario, say of a post op de transitioning, I would have to say most likely the reason would be that they were not transsexual from the start. It happens. This why there are gatekeepers, as unreliable as they can sometimes be, to try to help someone from making such a mistake based on something not transsexual.

Face it ...they do not know how to diagnose this and someone smart can tell any therapist what they need to hear to get HRT and SRS.

[LeaP]

How is it that the theoretical possibility that someone's decision to transition because they weren't trans is rejected out of hand as judgemental while the theoretical possibility that the same someone misunderstood the reasons for their detransition is advanced? Same broad brush, it seems to me.

[Michelle.M]

There may be a million shades of grey in describing individuals but the act of transition is black and white.

* sigh * Oh, please!

I have never yet met anyone in transition, or post-transition for that mater, whose transition was black and white. In fact, it's the most individualized human activity I can think of. No two of them are alike, but any one of them that helps the person achieve gender congruence (in whatever way he or she defines it) could be regarded as successful.

Nope, not at all black and white.


When you get through you will have benefits but for us to excuse those that de-transition is making fools of ourselves and the struggle it takes to make it through.

In what way does this make fools of anyone at all? People detransition. It happens, and it's a fact of life. It's not failure, and none of are in any position to judge anyone who detransitions, especially if we haven't walked in their shoes.

[whowhatwhen]

The trans community will throw each other under the bus so fast if anyone so much as flinches in a way that offends a cis person.

[arbon]

As for judging people who de-transtion, I don't really. They have had to go through what ever they had to go through to figure things out for themselves. Its their lives, not mine. I just want to better understand the why of it. The only ones I really have issues with are the people who go back and argue against other people transitioning thinking its a mistake for everyone else.

I don't really care for the gatekeepers, that whole system, myself. I don't hold them accountable for the decisions people have made if someone gets through and then finds it was the wrong thing.



Yes they can, but I sure don't envy anyone in that position. I doubt that I could do it, knowing full well what my psychological state was prior to HT.


When I went to a therapist at the beginning of 2010 I was really messed up mentally about all of it. But once I reached that decision to transition I stopped going as much. In the last two years I think I have had about 3 appointments, the last one in june o 2012. I just did not feel as much need for it. I never asked her if she thought I should transition or not, when I should change my name, when I should confront my boss, when I should start hrt. I kinda just did it all, then told her what I did. I'm sure it is not the best way its just the way I have been about it. I did not want to have to have someone else validate or invalidate who I am and what I am doing. Maybe some of that was driven by fear I would not get what I wanted. Maybe to it felt right to be driving my own life for a change.

I have an appointment with a psychologist (who I have no history with) next thursday to work on getting the right letter for my orchiectomy that I want done. I am a little anxious about the appointment, and curious how it is going to go.

[LeaP]

I think that is true, Corinne, but the reality that is behind it is the "community's" sensitivity – or oversensitivity – to the sensationalism that surrounds things like detransition. I get the injustice of that, but you are suggesting that it's an inappropriate community response. I'm less convinced of that, because the sensationalism does affect us by complicating the politics of things like insurance and rights. That's as much a hard reality as the existence of detransition itself. Maybe more so from a community standpoint. The larger community interests like those aren't the day-to-day issues of the individual transitioner, who has to live with whatever the situation of the moment happens to be. So I think you're complicating the issue by bringing community into this.

[whowhatwhen]

They still need support and from what I've seen post wise they'll get treated as a slight against all transsexuals.
We need educated people in positions of power, not trying to convince Joe Crossburner that "no, he's totally not one of us. never heard of him"

[Kathryn Martin]

Ah right, what the de-transitioners need is derision and to be shunned rather than compassion and support.
Lord knows above all else is appeasing the cisfolk.

Let me be clear, as far as individual people are concerned, I think de-transitioning is incredibly tragic. But not because the de-transitioned but rather because they transitioned in the first place. Transitioning is not a lark, or "I'll give it a whirl" , or a try. If you don't succeed then you have created far larger problems for yourself and for others than if you had not transitioned in the first place. You can be as compassionate as you like, but counseling someone to "try" transition which is in effect what you are advocating is becoming an accessory to bloody murder. Imagine you have just revealed that your judgement cannot be trusted ever again because you decided to transition without having truly considered what the potential and in case of de-transitioner the actual consequences are. It is unbelievable that any of you would even support such a thing. This is especially true of those that actually are still contemplating transition. What are you doing, creating justifications for failure, playing the victim card in your own mind before you have set foot on that road.


Wow. So all transwomen -- often confused, depressed, hiding for years, suffering scorn in those whom they come out to, and facing a medical system that doesn't fully understand (or that can't or won't help them) -- are expected to have perfect, unflawed judgement when it comes time to transition? I'm sorry, but that is an indefensible point of view. IF the world were perfect, and IF medical and psychiatric treatment were consistent across state and country lines, and IF the considtion of transgender were better understood, and IF society in general wasn't full of horrible people, then maybe you'd have a point. But given the world we live in, you're coming off as insensitive.

If you transition from a state of confusion and depression then your therapist has to have their head and license examined. The whole purpose of gate keeping is to ensure, and let me repeat this ENSURE that no axis 1 and 2 issues are present that would impair your decision making. People really believe, wrongly that transition fixes their life. It does nothing of the sort. It fixes one thing only, being authentic. It will not change your social inabilities, your professional worries, your financial ability or anything of the sort. Given the statistics 80-90% of transitioners lose their family, friends, jobs, houses, and any and all anchors in their life. If you transition without making allies before you transition, go into it clearheaded, knowing exactly what you potentially can expect you are indeed a fool. And no amount of compassion for such a tragic event will ever make up for the crap you have to deal with once you done it wrong. You call me insensitive, and I will tell you that what I am saying here is most sensitive to you who plan on and are beginning to transition, that I am most sensible in warning you to not just give it a try and to recognize that if you do not create, beforehand, the best possible conditions for a successful transition you should not transition. Failure in this is not an option.

I did transition succesfully, not because I had a easy time of it, not because I had resources to draw on, nor because I tried. I have been successful because I did not check my brain out at the coat check to transition theater, I knew everything that could possibly go wrong, I identified what my greatest challenges and pitfalls would be, I created allies, important allies long before I transitioned, because I did not let myself be seen in female attire even once before I transitioned socially and professionally, because I controlled the message I was sending, and because I ensured that my presentation on the first day after transition and every day after that was beyond reproach, that's why. Everything was in place before anyone other than my family who were sworn to silence, the executive director of my professional association and their equity officer, my professional partner even had an inkling. My allies after much persuasion that I had to do (this took quite some time but they recognized me for who I am eventually) took the edge of any potential adverse judgement others might have. Because even though I could have lost my mind, they obviously had not and chose to support me, and support they did.

None of us can possibly afford to fail in this. And if you do then you should have never tried. Because tragically this is a do or die act. Don't delude yourself that compassion after you fail is a safety net.


* sigh * Oh, please ..... Nope, not at all black and white.

In what way does this make fools of anyone at all? People detransition. It happens, and it's a fact of life. It's not failure, and none of are in any position to judge anyone who detransitions, especially if we haven't walked in their shoes.

Michelle, really? See there is only one way to transition, and that is successfully so how is that not f*cking black and white.

And yes I judge people who de-transition because they were fools to try. Trying is not good enough. And with great respect, I have walked in their shoes every step of the way all the way out the other end of transition, so making this argument just sets the parameters for failure and you say that's ok. We'll I disagree!

[LeaP]

When I went to a therapist at the beginning of 2010 I was really messed up mentally about all of it. But once I reached that decision to transition I stopped going as much.

I find myself cutting back to less frequent visits. There are things I want to work on for sure, but it doesn't have the same urgency as it did a year or so ago. I'm with you on that. But social transition without hormones? I don't think so.

[whowhatwhen]

lol
No one was suggesting counseling people into transition, where did you get that idea?

We're just saying that detransitioners need support instead of derision and judgement, I mean, aside from a smug "told-you-so" and sense of self satisfaction what do you get out of judging someone?
What does the intense distancing buy you?

That doesn't even mean that they're cisgender either, maybe transition was the wrong idea but it's unfair to assume that they don't need the support of the community.

[Kathryn Martin]

Corinne, if you believe that transitioning is not the most cut throat thing you will ever do then you really don't seem to understand. De-transitioning ultimately destroys people, their lives and many end up in the statistics. I am not sure what you mean by community? Do you mean the Trans whatever community? Who are they, the "you go girlers", the "sometimers I dress and feel like a girlers", the "not yet transitioned". This is a transsexual support forum, designed to help, support and advise those that seek to transition not those that have de-transitioned. What I am trying to tell all of you is that if you have the WTF monents at three in the morning, don't transitioned yet, because clearly the path is not clear in front of you, yet.

If you would realize how damaging those that are de-transitioning are to those that must transition maybe you would understand what I am trying to say. They are the examples that those whose support you seek will incessantly hold up to you like a mirror which is designed to tell you how ugly you are. They are the example of showing how ill considered transition is, they are the ones that make you go WTF at three am, because you ask "is this me?". They are the ones that frighten and impair your ability to seek and persuade your potential allies, because de-transitioning is a fact, as Michelle says, and becomes societies paradigm why we are all mentally ill. I remember the conversations, and the roadblocks this posed to make sure people understood. In one case I was told those that de-transitioned were the sane ones because at least they realized how foolish they were. Give me break and stop daydreaming into transition.

[whowhatwhen]

This never was about me, but I eagerly await my rejection letter from the tranny review board.
You say that detransition destroys people but your earlier posts treat them like lepers who failed and deserved what they got.

No one ever said transition was going to be easy, not a single soul in this thread.
In fact I think most here are going by the book and are already aware of all the things you keep bringing up.

The thing is though that I (or we) are taking issue with your derision of those who tried and failed.
They need help not your holier than though scorn.

You transitioned.
We get it.

[Michelle.M]

Corinne, if you believe that transitioning is not the most cut throat thing you will ever do then you really don't seem to understand.

Then I guess I don't understand, either. Or perhaps I just made my own luck.


If you would realize how damaging those that are de-transitioning are to those that must transition maybe you would understand what I am trying to say.

Nope, ain't buying it. The closest we come to damage are the "I saw the light, puhRAISE Jesus!" testimonies of those nut jobs who are exploited by Focus on the Family and their ilk.

I actually pity those folks. It's apparent they have many more issues going on and somehow they thought transition would fix them. They really do need psychiatric help and they're just being milked for propaganda value by so-called "family values" groups for their own agendas.

As for the rest, detransitioning is nothing more sinister or damaging then someone coming to a point where they say "Nope! This is not for me!". That's exactly what the process is supposed to do. No harm done, let's move on.


This never was about me, but I eagerly await my rejection letter from the tranny review board.

OMG! I nearly spewed my coffee all over my keyboard! I think my letter got lost in the mail, so I just went ahead and transitioned anyway.

Golly, I hope it works out!

[Kathryn Martin]

Michelle, really luck was involved? - Or did you work hard on being successful in your transition. You make it sound as if one day you said, oops I think I'll transition, stumbled through and by pure luck made it through. Do you advise people that this is the best way to do this? "oh, honey just give it whirl and if you're lucky you'll get through it".

Corinne, nicely dismissive for someone who is just about to get hit by the freight train. If you de-transition after a failed attempt then God help you, because you obviously couldn't help yourself. You just had to try, eh?

Oh and I'll let you in on a secret, your whole world is a "tranny review board" and they will hand you the letter. See once someone sends it to you, oh what the hell, good luck with that.

[LeaP]

Parse this out a bit so it's less personal.

Preface - Transition is an intensely personal and highly individualized activity. Everyone so far has agreed with that.

So from that ...

No-one determines the necessary steps for a completing a given transition other than the transitioner. Although that may include constraints and concessions, the transitioner miminally is the one who must accept accept them, as it is their neck on the line. Others may participate, but the transitioner decides.

If you accept that, then no-one is responsible for transition success or failure other than the transitioner.

Nonetheless, you can break down responsible/not responsible, failure/not failure considerations into a simple matrix, each cell of which carries some questions:

. If the detransitioner is not responsible and detransition is a failure, WHOSE failure is it?
. if the detransitioner is not responsible and detransition is not a failure, WHAT is it?
. if the detransitioner is responsible and detransition is a failure, well, that's a pretty personal failure ...
. if the detransitioner is responsible and detransition is not a failure, then WHAT exactly was the transitioner responsible for?

[sandra-leigh]

If you transition without making allies before you transition, go into it clearheaded, knowing exactly what you potentially can expect you are indeed a fool.

Why is it that every time I read your posts of this nature, that I get the urge to transition further just to prove you wrong ?

What is often said about transition here? Answer: don't do it unless you NEED to. Is NEED to transition polite enough to hold off until you have all of your ducks in a row, make enough key allies, perfect your make-up and voice skills and so on to have a presentation that is "beyond reproach" ?

My personal support network that I can count on is (A) One couple, 1000 miles away; (B) My sister, 950 miles away; (C) love but not understanding from my mother; and (D) occasional moral support from about 4 friends. Am I prepared to give up everything else to transition if I decide to transition? Yes. "Authentic unto ruin" might be "foolish", but it is also the key reason to transition.

Who would I be controlling my message for? The many people who write to me wanting me to do their work for them, pronto, for free, and don't ask how I am? The guy who called me a "mofo" a few days ago when I responded to him saying I was too sick that day to answer his question (on a topic I was not familiar with)? My Old Friends back home who haven't called me at home on the phone for at least 15 years? My third cousins twice removed? My ex-boss whom even Human Resources told me would probably never understand or accept?

I would also remind you that you do not have access to the psychiatric and therapy reports about me. The professionals don't quite see matters the same way you do.

[whowhatwhen]

Okay.
I'm going to fail because I disagree with you.

Pack it in.
I'm actually just a mentally damaged MAN despite doing everything by the book and taking this forum's advice and teachings to heart.
Yep.

edit: It's my way or you're actually a broken man.

[Michelle.M]

Michelle, really luck was involved?

In a way, yes, I've been very lucky.

There are difficulties we all face, but we don't all face the same challenges.

Some have transitioned in the context of a marriage. Some couples have stayed together (with significant challenges), others have gone through divorces. Some have had extremely difficult and bitter divorces. Not me - I transitioned while single, and that has benefits as well as difficulties.

Some have experienced rejection from family and friends. Not me.

Some transitioned while working, and some have had positive experiences at work while others have lost jobs. I had neither, and I know that my transition has been a roadblock to getting hired - in one case overtly so.

Some have experienced social stigma. I have. Some have had to contend with discrimination while out in public. I have as well. Some have had violence directed toward them, even to the point of being physically attacked. I have not.

Most of us have experienced the loss of male privilege. I definitely have, but it really doesn't bother me as much as it bothers others.

The list goes on and on. And you can see that some people have had a more difficult transition than I have, whereas others may regard themselves fortunate that, unlike me, they still have their marriage or their job. My point is that I've directed my energies toward dealing with my own real problems and not manufacturing any extra issues.

And I think I've been very lucky, despite my lack of employment and marriage. I simply chose not to ruin my luck by making problems for myself that did not exist.

[whowhatwhen]

What is often said about transition here? Answer: don't do it unless you NEED to. Is NEED to transition polite enough to hold off until you have all of your ducks in a row, make enough key allies, perfect your make-up and voice skills and so on to have a presentation that is "beyond reproach" ?

It used to be, now it's "do it my way or you're not a real woman".

[Angela Campbell]

If you accept that, then no-one is responsible for transition success or failure other than the transitioner.



Every individual capable of rational thought and coherent to reality is always responsible for all of their actions. Whether they like it or not.

Some make bad choices, some rush into things, some ignore others advice, some are really mixed up or a mixture of any of these. No matter, de transition is an awful thing. If someone can avoid it by being advised not to transition in the first place that is a good thing.

Does someone de transitioning hurt all of us? Yeah some, just as someone who is alcoholic and falls off the wagon hurts other recovering alcoholics. Mostly it is the sensationalism of this used by people who do not understand this to begin with that hurts us all.

I really cannot understand it myself, and it will not be an option for me because there is nothing to detransition back to.

[Kathryn Martin]

Corinne, just do what you think is best and I do hope you are successful. Being sarcastic and dismissive is not going to help you. I mentor two young women age 22 and age 26, both successfully transitioned except SRS which we are working on. Not just online but in real life. I have met with and worked with their parents, employers, friends etc. to help them build allies and support and accompanied them through their transition. I represent transfolks of every stripe in my practice. So I have a fair idea of the differences and of the commonalities.

Sandra, I know, many of you think I am just plain mean, but really I just want all of you to prove me wrong. If you do, I have accomplished what I set out to do. I would distinguish between the need to transition and transitioning. One is the ultimate motivator the other is the activity to get where you want to go, wherever that may be. And yes you have to present beyond reproach, which by the way has nothing to do perfect make-up or voice skills (although that helps). If you don't you just feed the prejudice, which I am afraid to say means you lose credibility.

[LeaP]

You remind me, Angela, that there's a difference between being responsible for actions versus consequences. So we're really talking about a situation where someone who is responsible for their actions is perhaps not responsible for the consequences of their actions. This is a more difficult ethical point than some credit, I think. Some maintain, for example, that ALL control is an illusion - so while you are responsible for what you do as a free agent, consequences are ultimately irrelevant to actions. I can accept that for situations the average person could not foresee. I have trouble accepting that for situations that are predictable.

This point looms for me, though. Can you force a woman to be (to present, to live) as a man against her will? That turns out to be a remarkably complicated ethics question.

[Angela Campbell]

Yes complete control is an illusion, so at best you settle for educated estimations. And no matter the action consequences will occur. Some take responsibility for these consequences and some do not. Some learn from them and keep going.

Can you force a woman to live as a man against her will? Sure....but there will be consequences.

[whowhatwhen]

Corinne, just do what you think is best and I do hope you are successful. Being sarcastic and dismissive is not going to help you.

It was never about me personally.
I take, and took exception to your position on failed transitions and treatment of those who suffer in it's wake.

[LeaP]

If you accept that you can force someone to be (or behave as) what they are not, then it follows that there are conditions under which you cannot hold them responsible.

But what constitutes such irresistable force? Some will say that there is a decision made - and responsibility for that decision - in ALL circumstances. Some would prefer to die rather than give into force. Well ... OK, but even views of martyrdom go up and down depending. Personally, there are things I might die for and others where I might concede to compulsion or circumstance. ... but I still think that's my choice. Put another way, people who attempt to impose their will on others are morally responsible for that. I am responsible for what I do in response. The fact that I might not like it simply means I've ordered my priorities such that compliance is less onerous than the alternatives.

To see it any differently is to abandon my agency on a plea of victimhood. Don't mistake this. Someone coming under dire circumstances often IS a victim. But that doesn't change the fact that there is still choice involved.

So fine - Sally is now Harry again. So Harry, things sucked ... what made you decide going back was better?

To the extent that people are concerned about empathy, any of us would feel deeply for someone going through that. Kathryn included. That doesn't mean that something didn't go terribly wrong. People f*** up all the time. We comfort and console them ... even when we ask them "WHAT were you thinking!? [leaving off the "you idiot"]"

If you maintain that someone transitioning REALLY and truly, honest-to-God has to be prepared to lose anything and everything, but then turn around and say no, you really didn't, that it's ok to go ahead and turn around based on something you weren't prepared to lose, then just what ARE we telling people?

[Nicole Erin]

And I want to be clear, I place a lot of blame at the feet of the de-transitioner. He hurts all legitimate transsexuals transitioning.
YEAH! He is a CHEAT! He is a SCOUNDREL! He is a LIAR! How dare he hurt all of us real transsexuals by acting like a woman!
He needs to quit dressing up en femme and running around pretending to be a woman like I do!

For real people. When people gonna live and let live?

[Kimberly Kael]

But social transition without hormones? I don't think so.

That's the path I took initially, but admittedly it's not for everyone. I'm a minimalist by nature and it felt wrong for me to think of HRT as a prerequisite to accepting myself as a woman. I wanted to approach hormonal adjustments as a woman correcting what nature robbed me of – if that makes sense.


Michelle, really luck was involved? - Or did you work hard on being successful in your transition.

One doesn't necessarily preclude the other. I do believe a lot of luck is taking advantage of opportunities, but there are some things that just work out well for reasons that can't possibly be foreseen. The fact that my friends were supportive is definitely a result of associating with decent people, a very practical form of karma. Winding up with a career in an industry that is about as trans-friendly as they get? It's hard to take credit for that decision, and it definitely made my transition a lot easier than it might have been otherwise.

... and I can take precisely zero credit for being born at a time, and into a culture where transition is a realistic option.

[LeaP]

That's the path I took initially, but admittedly it's not for everyone. I'm a minimalist by nature and it felt wrong for me to think of HRT as a prerequisite to accepting myself as a woman. I wanted to approach hormonal adjustments as a woman correcting what nature robbed me of – if that makes sense.

It makes complete sense. Just to be clear, this is not an acceptance issue for me. It's entirely about psychological health and stability. I really don't think I would ever have been in a state to consider transition without hormones. And now that I think of it, that makes some additional sense of not attempting to make the transition decision until I HAD been on hormones for a while. But that's hindsight.

To the thread topic, what if I could no longer get hormones post-transition? Would that "force" me to detransition? Got me, but probably not. I'd just be screwed up in a different way. My writing might be more entertaining, though.

[Badtranny]

Michelle, really luck was involved?

I haven't really had anything to say until now.

Kathryn, I don't completely disagree with your position though I do think you're being a bit churlish.

I have been an outspoken proponent of planning your transition with a clear head even before I knew what I was talking about. I'm also not shy about saying that clothes don't make the girl, transition does. I've always been very honest about my struggles and I've been consistently candid about my experiences and feelings. My transition has been nothing short of a miracle and no one can say that I haven't put in the work, BUT I am also extremely lucky.

I would never de-transition because that really sounds like a horrible thing, BUT I have no idea how I would feel if my transition wasn't successful. I definitely have my own physical challenges BUT I am rather fine boned and still within the physical parameters of an average sized woman. My voice is mostly pretty darn feminine as well as my physical presence. It took awhile but I now have pretty darn good hair as well. None of these things are attributable to any thing that I have done for myself. I am just plain lucky and I was literally born this way.

How can I look at a sister who couldn't complete her transition largely because she is undeniably masculine looking and judge her for lack of commitment? If I looked like the kind of guy that I'm attracted to yet I felt the same way, I have no idea what I would do, or if I would have ever transitioned.

This is why I'm always so snarky on here with the incredible passing stories. I know first hand that passing is HARD and I want the fence sitters to know this. I know I'm more fem looking than average and I STILL had a hard time getting to the point I'm at now. It takes guts to transition BUT it takes a special kind of spirit to do it when you're not physically lucky. This has been hard for me, it is still no picnic sometimes. Sometimes I feel like I'm starring in some weird reality show, and that is WITH my lucky looks. I can't imagine how hard it must be for someone who is not so lucky.

[Rianna Humble]

What I am trying to tell all of you is that if you have the WTF monents at three in the morning, don't transitioned yet, because clearly the path is not clear in front of you, yet.

Now that is the biggest load of bovine scatology you have ever spouted.

It doesn't matter what the field or how well prepared someone is, anyone who will never admit self-doubt is either insane or dangerous - and often both. In my professional life, I have often been called in to clean up the mess caused by such people.

In the context of transition, those WTF moments are often a side-effect of the dysphoria itself. Unlike you, I would not judge someone who admits to those moments, but I would worry about someone who mid-transition insists (s)he has never had them.

[Megan72]

What about at the beginning? I am only to a point where I need to further explor the whole thing. I believe I am trapped in a mans body but to date have only started to seek help. If I question at three in the morning does it make me prudent in my consideration or a future failed experiment? Sorry but that does not really make me feel any better about myself.
As far as e need to transition and the related depression, well the depression is a symptom of the real diagnosis. That being gender dysphoria. I would worry more about a person beginning transition that did not have depression. Why treat the flu after you have gotten over it? Kinda defeats the purpose to me. My depression is caused I believe by my being trapped, not the other way round, so the treatment for the issue is to seek help in transition, not take anti depressants which never worked for me to begin with.
Megan

[sandra-leigh]

There may be a million shades of grey in describing individuals but the act of transition is black and white. Trans identity has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don't care how you identify but if you transition (to whatever you want to transition to) you better be prepared to meet that challenge. The world will be sitting with bated breath for you to screw up just to have their judgements confirmed. If you are unable to meet that challenge then you should not have transitioned. We are given no quarter and anything short of perfection will occasion enormous pressure.


Oh and I'll let you in on a secret, your whole world is a "tranny review board" and they will hand you the letter.

The residents of Winnipeg must have been at Tim Hortons when the memo about mandatory Two Minutes Hate went out.

Oh, last week a passenger in a car driving by yelled an indistinct remark. Oh me, oh my! Guess I should go back to male 'cuz the world handed me my tranny letter. You remember me being male, don't you? The days of 100% male presentation, when I would get insults hurled at me by strangers walking by 2 feet away? Utter strangers, who knew nothing of me other than somehow I was "wrong" in some invisible way.

I had my walk in the snow {* -- a Canadiana reference} some years ago. I figured that since the world was determined to hate me anyhow, for nothing, that I might as well dress in public the way I wanted to. At least the insults would be more accurate, and I could enjoy myself in-between. So I did. And the random close-range insults went away. An occasional giggle, but that was nothing new to me.

It was when I thought I was a guy that the world was busy giving me my "tranny letter". These days I seldom even rate a shrug. At least in person.

Changing my professional name will have an exposure to a few tens of thousands of people, and some of them might get upset. Some of them might go as far as to read the documentation (gasp!)

[Amanda M]

THis thread has been an interesting read! Kathryn, your original comment is perhaps one of the most damningly judgemental pice of prose I have read in many a day.

When will people realize that in any given situation, 20 people may well react in twenty different ways, depending on, for example, their world view, their health, and dare i say it, their gender. For each of those people, their unique response may well be the one best suited to them.

I would suggest that you take a long look at your reaction to the OP, and note the responses to it - the should verify the correctness of what I have just written.

Could you please try to stop being so judging and prescriptive, as if you knew better thean the person undergoing the experience?

[Kathryn Martin]

Now that is the biggest load of bovine scatology you have ever spouted.

Why don't you just say bullshit..... I would be fine with that. Not that I agree with your brilliant but rather smelly analysis. And, by the way, scatology is not feces, it's the study of feces....

Sandra,

Are you really that dense. What you are writing there confirms what I said, namely, that the world will be the one to judge you and you better be prepared to withstand that onslaught.....

Amanda,

I am not sure what you are expecting from me. Let's just for a moment go along. What people are saying in their comments is that de-transitioning is something that is within the normal rage of trans-whatever behavior and that people should be supported in both transitioning and de-transitioning. I happen to disagree.

Even worse is that this is not about anyone that anyone here would know.
Sometimes you hear people that have decided to de-transition, even post-ops. is what Arbon wrote. She described as a phenomenon that she has heard about, not "Joe has de-transitioned". The investment of emotional energy invested , especially in attacking me, is pretty enormous given that we are not even talking about a real person but something someone has heard about. So you are taking me to task for for not giving much credence to someone who doesn't even exist, some nebulous multitude of people who have apparently done this. And I have been declared morally blameworthy for not being supportive to whom exactly. I don't know anything about de-transitioning, but I do know the impact these rumors and the stories of actual person de-transitioning have on those that want to transition. And that experience is quite different. It is also the reason why I think people who de-transition (especially if they are post op) are to be judged.

This is also not about someone who fails RLE, because that is what RLE is for.

[Nicole Erin]

I mentor two young women age 22 and age 26, both successfully transitioned except SRS which we are working on. Not just online but in real life. I have met with and worked with their parents, employers, friends etc. to help them build allies and support and accompanied them through their transition. I represent transfolks of every stripe in my practice. So I have a fair idea of the differences and of the commonalities.


Since you have the answers and know the exact differences between a real and fake TS, maybe they should start calling it the "Kathryn Martin standards of care"

I hope no one on this forum questions their own identity just because of what you imagine to be real or not.

[bas1985]

I agree in part with the "do or die" approach of Kathryn, I remember that she is a lawyer and a good lawyer should always warn you that every cause is a messy one. Do you remember the "war of the Roses" movie? In the initial scene the divorce lawyer says that he charges $300/hour but he will give to the customer a free advice of how divorces could go wrong... and then the story begins.

I am an engineering but the background is the same: practical. Transition is something that society does not currently understand so we, especially MtFs (for FtMs the problems are different), must present beyond reproach, at 100%.

I think that one legitimate cause of de-transitioning is that it is physically impossible... but that is something that is more or less clear even before hormones. If I am 2 meters tall, well, either I am able to sustain that I won't so easily pass (with all the consequences) or the gatekeeper should simply reject to give me hormones... unless I demonstrate with a real life test that I can handle the consequences of a difficult passing.

Hormones, we know, are not magic, they will not turn a man into a woman, unless we take them before 18 (more or less).

Transition at a mature age should be done only when ALL the material, physical, mental, emotional aspects are clearly resolved. That does not mean to abolish doubt, which is inevitable, but that transition itself is clearly supported and its master plan (like an engineering planning diagram) fully laid out, with times, financial resources, support, etc.

But... I know that not every one is an engineer or a lawyer (thanks God :) ), for the others there should be professionals which take care of this. A Gender therapist should (in my view) act as the lawyer in the "war of the Roses", warn the possible TS that this is a very steep road.

[Angela Campbell]

This is also not about someone who fails RLE, because that is what RLE is for.
I think this is a good point. The entire purpose of RLE is to see if transition is right, because no one ever really knows.....giving up or changing direction before or during RLE isn't really a failure it is part of the process.

The thing that is difficult to understand are the ones who do complete all the way through SRS and further and much later detransition. After all they went through .....although this is extremely rare it is often publicized to our detriment.

But you know....there isn't always a happily ever after.


And Melissa,

Yes luck has a part in it for many of us. I find luck has been very good to me, but not without an enormous amount of hard work, just as with you. The harder you work the more apparent the luck seems to be.

[LeaP]

What about at the beginning? I am only to a point where I need to further explor the whole thing. I believe I am trapped in a mans body but to date have only started to seek help. If I question at three in the morning does it make me prudent in my consideration or a future failed experiment? Sorry but that does not really make me feel any better about myself.
As far as e need to transition and the related depression, well the depression is a symptom of the real diagnosis. That being gender dysphoria. I would worry more about a person beginning transition that did not have depression. Why treat the flu after you have gotten over it? Kinda defeats the purpose to me. My depression is caused I believe by my being trapped, not the other way round, so the treatment for the issue is to seek help in transition, not take anti depressants which never worked for me to begin with.
Megan

Megan, only you can decide what the significance of your doubts represents. I have had my share of WTF moments. Written about them here, in fact. In the beginning they WERE doubts. My mind felt like it was being scrambled. There were times I seriously questioned my sanity and experienced a kind of internal vertigo.

For some of us, our real identity emerges, having been roused from the edge of consciousness by a crisis and then manifesting ever more strongly and frequently. Until doubt is finally gone. Yet I still have occasional WTF moments! But they don't engender doubt any longer. Rather, they are flashes of old and alternative points of view. You don't suddenly take on a renewed view of yourself, immediately and completely cutting off the old.

So I will see myself as if from without once in a while. Sometimes I'm chagrined, sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's in response to being with someone trying to understand and listening to how they see me.

I can only speak to the *decision* to transition at this point, but I can tell you that mine came from a very deep place. There are elements of both self-knowlege and faith in the decision. But there is no longer any doubt about who I am. That's what prompts me forward, and that's what I would have to face going back. Misty neatly characterized that as a horrible prospect.



Oh, and in before the lock ...

[Marleena]

Hi Arbon, you sure asked some difficult questions there in your first post. While it is sad that complete transition did not work for these people only they can answer your questions. We can only speculate what caused them to de-transition. I would hate to think that the gender therapists are responsible for their failure with all the safeguards in place. I have read that 2% is the expected failure rate although 5% may be more realistic. Science is not perfect and there is no real test for this "birth defect" other than listening and observing and challenging and preparing the client for transition if it's required.

Perhaps some people who did transition and it went well for them according to plan have higher expectations for those that need to transition, IDK.

[Megan72]

Lea, I think I was trying to be rhetorical in my comments, but you are spot on in that each journey is unique. My crisis did occurs recently so I agree whole heartedly with that aspect.

[stefan37]

RLE is there for a reason and if a person realizes changing genders and living in the opposite gender is not goood for them then that is success and the system worked. Success or failure of a transition resides with the person undergoing such transition. Yes society judges, however if an individual is happy and can deal with the abuse of society, then who are we to judge whether a transition is successful or not. GD is not a black and white condition. The goal of all of us should be to find a level of comfort where our condition is eliminated or mitigated to a manageable level.

I had some examples or 3 individual I personally know that transitioned 30 years ago with hormones for a couple years(no surgeries) and gave it up. but the post glitch obliterated it and I have work to do. Bottom line 1 stayed male identifies as trans, 2 retransitioned 4-5 years ago. 1 because of medical reasons can not have surgery, and the other had SRS last year at age 70. All 3 are mentally stable, happy and productive members of society.

Success or failure is a personal thing and nobody can tell me I am a success or failure. Your concept of being a woman and what transition should be may differ from mine as well as the road we take to get there.

[Sara Jessica]

This is also not about someone who fails RLE, because that is what RLE is for.

No, this isn't a good point. Why is a line being drawn at failure of RLE? Technically my friend was in the midst of RLE when she de-transitioned. She presented as female 24/7. The world wouldn't know where she was in the transition process any more than it would be able to describe my own situation correctly. RLE let the genie out of the bottle and all of the de-transition in the world certainly cannot and did not put her back. I can't even imagine the pain she was going through.

De-transition after GRS would be that much more tragic but regardless, both situations deserve our compassion rather than scorn or ridicule.

[melissaK]

Quite the thread. The "must present beyond reproach" premise expressed by a few really bothers me.

Why do you accept that? Who the heck sets the standard for "presenting"? Isn't that ratifying prejudice?

I mean we can and do ratify prejudice; I did it by closeting my feelings away and hiding my true interests and suppressing my true behaviors all to make sure I "presented male beyond reproach". Now you want me to believe I gotta do the same thing but as a woman???

That in a nutshell is what I felt when I let myself out of my closet. I felt the same freaking pressure to be perfect, just in another gender role. And I decided I wasn't going to do it. I am going to "relax into" a role that I define and I create. Perhaps not unlike the path Sandra-leigh describes.

And to take this thought back to the OP, maybe the pressure to "present female beyond reproach" is just too much, and that's why some de-transition. It would probably help if more people in our own community accepted or at least openly discussed middle ground "Gender Outlaw" concepts discussed by Kate Bornstein and other TS commentators.

[bas1985]

for me "beyond reproach" varies from country to country, even from city to city.

For example "beyond reproach" in Palermo (for example) would be very different from a cultural more open Milan or Turin.

The "bar" is set by the context. Maybe one day a TS could go around in female clothes and a beard shadow and
no one will take a second look. Now it is impossible... but it is only a matter of presenting. Why should I
remove the beard shadow? To conform to gender...

[LeaP]

Megan, you also raised an interesting point about depression. Mine has been life-long and serious. And now, between ADs and hormones, it's largely gone. I feel TERRIFIC! Lots of positive days, versus pain-free at best. Happy thoughts, versus relief from being left alone. Actual, engagement with people in conversation, versus presenting a false front and personality. So I understand your point here. But ...

You said you might question someone who did not manifest with depression. Accepting that, then what do you make of the disappearance of depression (or other issues)? If, as you said, there is no reason to treat flu further when it's cured, doesn't it follow that getting better indicates cure and no need for further treatment?

As it happens, this is a common circumstance and one that involves lots of renewed questioning and doubt! It's a regular source of OPs. An experience I went through in spades. But over time, even though depression has stayed away and other symptoms get ever dimmer, my identity and body image issues have sharpened. It didn't help, though, that there was a gap of a few months between when I started feeling good and the return of dysphoria - actual dysphoria - in it's pure form (for lack of a better characterization). Talk about WTF moments ...

I was counseled to address the depression and other issues turning my attention to gender. The reason, as it turns out, is that gender issues often disappear when such things as depression and other co-morbid issues are the root problem, because gender identity problems can be a symptom. When gender identity is the cause, however, the original problems resolve - being symptoms and not truly dysphoria, and the real dysphoria pops into focus.

At that point, you REALLY find yourself trapped. I don't feel bad and I don't expect to feel bad any longer. It's now not so much feeling seasick because I'm in a small boat in an angry ocean (as it was before). Instead, I find I woke up in a small boat in the middle of a desert. I've become a non-sequitur. Now THAT sucks in a completely different way, but at least I know exactly what the problem is and what will resolve it.

[Megan72]

Lea,
My comments are really only from looking through my lens. I refer to the depression being a symptom of a larger problem in that this is my perception of the beginnings of the transition process. Not that these emotions and issue do not continue the treatment should diminish the root cause to a mangeble level for the individual. I do know that this is not a common flu and will not be cured per SE, more that it is a lifelong condition that must be managed and planned for in order for it to be successful. This has been my continual issue With much of the DSM IV guide. The entire text is one big "if/then" statement. If the patient exhibits 3 of 6 common elements of X disorder then the common treatment is Y. When dealing with human dynamics such static recommendations are pigeon holding the person. Humans in any form or gender or combination are much more complex than this allows.
I worked in human services for a long time, and may yet still. I spent a lot of time dealing with what I called perceptual diagnosing. I know there is probably a better term, but basically therapists see the world through their own lens. Say for instance you start going to a fully transitioned therapist that has made this journey successfully for her. She will naturally see smilarities in her own process and sympathize with the patient. This would lend itself to a more favorable diagnosis leading to the patients own transition. I am not saying that any failure is due to the therapist, only that when seeking a therapist one should be aware that maybe this could exist. The same is true in more everyday medicine, if you go to an endocrinologist, they will likely find some sort of hormone imbalance, take the same issue to a ObGyn then it could be more likely PCOS in woman. I see it beng all a product of the lens we view the world through,
Megan

[mary something]

Why are we so focused on the acceptance of others? The intense desire and need for other people to give their approval usually makes it that much more difficult to achieve because of the vibe of desperation that is given off. If we are so incredibly desperate for the acceptance of others that we will even turn on other people like us and judge them as unworthy then what does that mean that we have lost from our soul to achieve a "successful" transition?

If you meet enough people you will eventually find people who don't accept transsexuality through no fault of your own. What do you do then?

If it were easy to be TS in our society maybe I would think about it differently, but the reality is that if you transition then you are adding challenges to your life. Some people have many more challenges than others. Who are we to judge?

Transition for yourself, not for anyone else. Reread Kelly's post again and she describes what it emotionally and cognitively feels like to grow into your real identity. Doubt is healthy, it means that you're aware of the potential challenges that might be faced and spending mental energy on navigating your path.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Being a girl, but coming out of your mother to all the world as a guy is the TS condition...there is no crossdressing (Altho many of us thought of it that way for many years)...its not gender fluid, its not gender blended...there is no continuum for the ts.
btw...this may be my own dogma...but lets get real...for those of us that ARE women...there must be something to name us... true transsexual is the wrong message...its simply transsexual...you have cancer or you don't...you can have "Pre cancer"...

You may or may "know" from your earliest memory, you may or may not have a screwed up sexuality where your gender issue comes with lots of hard ons when you allow yourself female expression, you may or may not be gay or straight...on and on and on...

Unfortunately for us, its a consuming and deeply existential (And invisible to others!!) problem..its so personal and important we fight and talk past each other..

Kathryn I"ve said this before...i'm sorry but you have a blind spot and it is your personalization of your condition and your personalization of how and what you did about it..followed by your projection of that...your advice, your compassion, your deeply ingrained honesty and integrity are there for all to see, but its clouded ...


some of us that have transitioned simply do not share your obsessive focus on body parts , which is part of how you personalize your transition, take some of the info that's out there and then create this dogma around what a transsexual is and isn't..

This dogma you express means that your very positive and constructive messages get lost as people get frustrated with things you are saying which they KNOW are wrong...they know (and I know) because they lived it.. they lived it differently than you..
I experienced a totally different successful transition than you... ithought of myself differently, I lived differently, I planned differently, I prioritized differently..

the only thing I did the same was I single mindedly never looked back because I knew what I had to do... I meticulously planned it, I executed, I dodged many pitfalls and I came out alive and thriving.. and yet even today the idea of having a corrected birth defect seems strange to me...I just never ever thought of it or experienced it that way...

I realize there are studies and stats that try to generalize our condition, and explain it...those studies leave me cold... they harmed me... reading about crazy stuff like AGP made me doubt myself...it caused a shame I didn't understand...that shame caused confusion and depression...its complicated..

I got through it..i got through it because of lots of the things you said... as my situation became apparent, I started to think differently, act differently, and like you I became a juggernaut..

head down, forward march...that IS the way to do it..

Consequences to ALL actions are influenced by many factors...in business we say "everything matters"... sometimes in our transitions the luck of the draw and circumstances beyond our control hammer away at us... sometimes in our transitions, we experience moments of weakness that cause us to make poor decisions in our agony...sometimes in our transitions, events conspire to LITERALLY make transition in the current timeframe impossible

...sometimes there is too much fear confusion depression and shame to get yourself to a point where transition is in your best interest....the dogma of transition fails these people utterly...

frankly these people are beyond my(our) help ..they need an epiphany, a great therapist and some luck to beat the other stuff before they can confront the difficulties of transition

That being said,

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that de transition..(after truly transitioning). I wish no ill to them, but I can only look at that and say they screwed up their own lives...its on them

if it was luck or unfair things that caused their de transition, I believe they should have thought about the risks beforehand and either dealt with them, or steeled themselves for a worst case scenario...its so totally awful and unfair..but it is what it is...

I don't have sympathy for people that try RLE and its not for them.. I feel JOY for them...their quality of life will be much improved without the destructive nature of transition..i totally admire their willingness to try something to make their lives better... it is flat out wrong to say that hurts us as transsexuals...they get to live their lives just like us..

As far as transsexuals that give up (As opposed to realizing they are not women, they just give up transition after starting it)
I feel mixed...I don't relate to this at all..transition is all or nothing..this is a failure of execution...you can't possibly plan for every outcome but if you are not ready to be the juggernaut you are a fool to press the button...

if you choose a blended lifestyle, more power to you... who am I to try to define who you are...but I would ask that you give me the same respect...i am transsexual...you are different than me...who are you to say otherwise??

I can predict or guess that you are not transsexual if that life works for you...or I can speculate there is good chance its all going to fall apart for you IF you are transsexuals...

In all these cases I don't see how they harm us much...yes the Charles Kane's of the world are negative role models that trulyupset me because he is a false flag...he blames his stupidity on the gatekeepers...its patently obvious to anyone with half a brain that he is a narcissistic idiot that screwed up his own life..

that's my $4.22

and Kelly J...great post...there are lots of great comments and I respect everyone's opinions and thoughts.. even when I disagree...

[LeaP]

I agree, Megan. I view the DSM along the same lines. It does not define transsexualism. It's a point of view on a limited set of symptom manifestations in a subset of the trans population. There is more real knowledge about the condition in the little fingers of half the girls here than all the non-trans researchers and therapists on the planet. Therapists play an important role - so does the DSM - but defining me isn't one of them!

[I Am Paula]

I've been following this thread, wondering when, and if, to weigh in.
Concerning the original post- We all have had failures in life, some of which have caused us to back track. This does not condemn us for life. Some succeed, some find it is not for them .Witness the huge amount of exercise equipment stashed under beds world wide. I feel for the women (few as I believe there are) who have gone all the way to SRS, and then turned back. They are not doomed, they made a mistake.
The thread has evolved, and the subject now seems to be failure as a trans woman, and therefore failure as a woman in general, as a result of inferior genetics, or just plain not trying hard enough. Bullshit! I'm on the fringe of OK genetics. Six feet tall (Not ridiculous), born, and stayed darn near body hairless (HRT did the rest, don't need to shave my chest anymore), and I'm reasonable enough of face that I'm not considering FFS. Boobs are being installed next spring. My voice is passable. (I get ma'amed on the phone most times). My actions, mannerisms, and vibe spell female, and always have.(got beat up in school a lot for being a pansy)
I will NEVER look like a movie star. Starting transition at 55, I will always have that look of a 55 year old tranny. Yet, despite the naysayers of this thread, I have socially transitioned, gotten employment, have a huge group of cis-friends, and the respect of my peers.
What part of womanhood am I the failure at?
I would love to look like Charlize Theron. Very few of us will. Can I walk down Main St. and interact with the butcher, the baker, etc? Damn right I can, and they will all use the proper pronouns, and think to themselves 'There goes a lady'.

[Kimberly Kael]

Even worse is that this is not about anyone that anyone here would know.

Given that at least two people in this thread had already posted about people they knew personally who de-transitioned? And that we all know people who might face that choice somewhere down the road? Really? This is the kind of arrogance that rubs me exactly the wrong way. I appreciate hearing about your personal experience even when it differs from my own, but absolutist assertions call out to be challenged.

[Megan72]

I just wonder....what does the fox say?....

[rachael.davis]

I stopped out for a while, dumb idea, but necessary at that time and place.
I'm currently working with a new therapist about the fear level in "midstream",

[LeaP]

What part of womanhood am I the failure at?


None at all. Moreover, *I* would put your presentation as "beyond reproach" as I don't think that means what you are suggesting anyway.

I'm having a hard time sorting out tone from substance in this thread. Because as far as I can tell, you and serval others are approaching transition in the manner Kathryn describes, at least at it relates to determination.

No judgements, though ... really? First, who doesn't judge? Why isn't it reasonable to pre-judge according to your framework of understanding anyway? That's how we survive in this world and wrestle for understanding - by staking positions and opinions and bashing them against experience. I don't know ANYONE who is so non-judgemental that they don't have biases, form preliminary opinions, entertain suspicions, etc.

It's also interesting to observe how judgement plays out in real-world cases. No-one seems to have any problem tossing Charles Kane under the bus. And I recall Chelsea Manning taking a royal beating here for BEING trans, never mind detransitioning. That's different, you say? I don't think so!

Something like a public transition and detransition might not condemn you for life, but it's appalling extreme. I would venture to say that most would have serious, lingering issues for life, at least in some quarters. And that's about as close to dead certain for a post-OP who detransitions as you can get. I'll concede the .000001%.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I throw our dear friend Charles under the bus because of what he did afterwards...I feel bad that he thought something so destructive as transition was his answer..

he is the face of pink fog gone wrong...not the face of detransition...

Plus he is a creepy and self promoting loser. It was disgusting to see his trophy girlfriend follow him around on the 20/20 show that featured his blathering about how his screw up was everybody elses fault when in fact he is just the epitome of a fool..he is not a transsexual and yet he relishes presenting himself as one who was wronged by the system

I am a big fan of personal responsibility ... I wish him no ill will EXCEPT for the carve out that he should not be allowed to spew his garbage without getting hit by that bus..

As for knowing others... like sara J I know people too... 2 detransitions...2 FAILED detransitions and 2 suicide attempts... both de transitions were driven by outside factors from family issues and strangely enough perceived slights in the workplace as the burden of simply being a woman in their old job was too much..

... they lost their will after the dysphoria was cured and when their kids or wives pushed them away...they thought de transition was the answer... in hindsight both of them tell me that they look back on their detransition "phases" as ill conceived attempts to claw back things they felt they lost..both experienced gender dysphoria roaring back into their lives and both took pills!!! its bizarre how closely their stories match!!!!!!!!

they should have prepared for outcomes better...this is exactly why we all say be prepared to lose EVERYTHING
frankly it won't likely happen...but if you are not ready this is what happens.. this is not judgment its reality

+++++

Reading arbon's original post I would like to say to her that I sometimes have "WTF have I done" moments... I have had what I will call "wonderings" (as opposed to doubts) about what I have done...

I was coached in therapy to write down my feelings...write down what I was thinking as I started transition...that's because when the GD feelings are gone..transition can seem like it was unnecessary or other bad thoughts creep in...

I did write and reading those notes (I just did) is a scary and incredibly sad thing...it was sooooo bad.... sometimes it may help some of us to remember that at its base level we are simply fixing a big problem by transitioning...and that even low quality of life post transition is better than no quality of life prior to it...

[Kathryn Martin]

Quite the thread. The "must present beyond reproach" premise expressed by a few really bothers me.

I think you quite misunderstood what I meant with this. I am 6'2" and I do not have a particularly girly voice. There are some things we cannot change about ourselves. Again, society sets the standard for a presentation beyond reproach. For women with a transsexual history these judgements are amplified significantly by the fact that we begin with a persuasiveness deficit. Transition is hard enough, why expose yourself to the kind of reproach that attracts criticism. You work in a service industry like I. You need to present in an attractive manner to both recruit and maintain your clientele. As I said I am 6'2" and my voice is lower than I would ideally like. Add to that being badly dressed, a bad haircut, a sloppy appearance etc. and your clients will wonder if your judgement is impaired.

I keep repeating that passing is not another form of hiding. If you are a woman with a transsexual history, and you are as out as I am, and you want to live a life of dignity and purpose, then distracting from who you really are but doing everything half way, throwing up your hands and saying it will do is a form of self defeat. I have a friend in a very public position who told me once that he doesn't understand many TS women. He said if you want to be a woman be a goddamn woman. You are a gender outlaw and so be a goddamn gender outlaw already but do it in a way that brings you the acceptance that you need, that we all need.

It's easy to mount the barricades of "I don't care what people think, I am going to do it anyway" and in doing so add just another sh*t load of burden and trouble onto your already slightly over burdened shoulders. I could not be out more, by the way.

Kaitelyn:


This dogma you express means that your very positive and constructive messages get lost as people get frustrated with things you are saying which they KNOW are wrong...they know (and I know) because they lived it.. they lived it differently than you..

I experienced a totally different successful transition than you... i thought of myself differently, I lived differently, I planned differently, I prioritized differently..

I am fully aware of what you are talking about. I know that my views come across as somewhat inflexible.

Yet, with your different experience, your different life both before and after transition, your different planning and your different priorities you have come out the other end and clearly with great success. What success is depends on the life we lead. Yet we have commonalities in beginning and end points, in the way we are assessed, in the way we are judged to be successful by those around us and in the who we are once we come out the other end.

[arbon]

I am HOPING the mods will NOT lock this thread because I would like comment on a few things later tonight. I don't have time to read back through it all and write a semi intelligent post right now.

[LeaP]

I throw our dear friend Charles under the bus because of what he did afterwards...I feel bad that he thought something so destructive as transition was his answer..

Don't get me wrong, Kaitlyn - I have no problem whatsoever throwing Kane under the bus! I was questioning the posture of condemning someone for their (apparent) absolutist posture, claiming the mantle of non-judgement and compassion, and being just as (apparently) absolutist and judgemental in other contexts. (And before anyone asks, I'm not naming names. Judge your own self ... if you can.) The "apparently" qualifier is really another way of saying that people are responding more to tone than substance, IMO.

How do I know in this case? Because if I really screw up, I fully expect you and Kathryn would be among the first to reach out.

[Angela Campbell]

I have learned more from listening to those I do not agree with than those I do.

This is a rather good thread and I do look forward to what Arbon has to say when she can.

[emma5410]

Someone said it was okay to turn back during RLE but not when you have transitioned. At which point have you transitioned? SRS or some point before then? Do you get a certificate?
I am nine months into RLE but I do not feel I have transitioned or anywhere close. How long do I have left to turn back without condemnation? I would hate to miss the cut off date. Today I am a brave soul trying something new. Tomorrow I am undermining all real transsexuals.

[sandra-leigh]

Sandra,

Are you really that dense. What you are writing there confirms what I said, namely, that the world will be the one to judge you and you better be prepared to withstand that onslaught.....

Cutthroat thing in my life: Gauss Mathematics Contest. Golly did I feel thick when I couldn't finish answering even one question!

Seriously dispiriting thing in my life: Walking down the street any age between 14 and 40, minding my own business, short hair, beard even, dressed like all the other guys, when a fully adult driver drives past, tire-spins-reverses to come near me, yells a homophobic slur, and drives off again. :wtf: just happened?

Seriously lonely thing in my life: I've had one 'date', total. It was at age... 34, I think. We took an immediate dislike to each other when we met in person. My two long term relationships were literally not from North America at all.

"Yah, whatever" thing in my life: a pair of 19-ish year old women giggled after I walked passed them last week; I was in an "office professional" suit-dress. 20 minutes later, a complete stranger, a fully-adult woman, exclaimed to me that she really liked my outfit.

"Just feels right" thing in my life: Outside the house, everyone I see even semi-regularly calls me Sandra. Except my pharmacist, a dear older and formally polite gentleman whom I haven't mentioned the name to yet.

Life giving me the Tranny Letter part of my life: the men who see me, "read me" in a flash, and behave towards me exactly like they do to the other women, complete with that same warm "Thank You, God, for lovely women!" smile.

If this is how the world is "cutthroat" towards visible transsexuals, then I would make all the legal changes without hesitation. Because I've been treating it as something much harder than the Gauss contest.

Emma: LOL!

[LeaP]

Got me, Emma. What are your intentions?

If they are SRS – as I assume, since you put this in the context of real life experience – turning back will have saved you something quite important. More important, in fact, than the loss of credibility. The expiration on that runs out as the anesthesia kicks in. There is no maximum time for RLE. There is only a minimum. Take as long as you need.

If your real life experience is practice for something else, I would say you've already made quite a statement.

[emma5410]

I intend to have SRS and have no intention of turning back. I am just a little bemused by the drawing of lines. I have sympathy for most people who turn back or detransition. People like Charles Kane being the exception.

[LeaP]

I am just a little bemused by the drawing of lines.

Really? I couldn't tell.

Re: C. Kane - So it's not the line that bemuses you, it's where it is drawn?

[Kathryn Martin]

I was counseled to address the depression and other issues turning my attention to gender. The reason, as it turns out, is that gender issues often disappear when such things as depression and other co-morbid issues are the root problem, because gender identity problems can be a symptom. When gender identity is the cause, however, the original problems resolve - being symptoms and not truly dysphoria, and the real dysphoria pops into focus.

At that point, you REALLY find yourself trapped. I don't feel bad and I don't expect to feel bad any longer. It's now not so much feeling seasick because I'm in a small boat in an angry ocean (as it was before). Instead, I find I woke up in a small boat in the middle of a desert. I've become a non-sequitur. Now THAT sucks in a completely different way, but at least I know exactly what the problem is and what will resolve it.

Interestingly enough what you describe is the the biggest gate keeping issue especially with late transitioners. I do not believe that gender dysphoria is in fact an actual diagnosis. It describes secondary symptom and what the DSM 5 does is create a diagnosis from symptoms as Megan sets out in her comment. Add to that the "observers" view point, such as having transitioned, needing trans people to make a practice off it etc. and you actually have a pretty hot mess.

If you take the purpose of gate keeping to ensure that in fact transsexualism is the actual cause of the secondary depression (which is situational), which is why early pioneers like Benjamin send people to psychiatrists (and which has now become a standard of care) then the result is that transsexualism can be diagnosed from patient narrative and the exclusion of Axis 1 and 2 issues. The real issue is what is a transsexual narrative and what is not.:battingeyelashes:

This is where the phenomenon of de-transitioning has it's root in my view. And it is both the patient and the therapist at whose feet this has to be laid.

Finding yourself in a small boat in a desert is a fabulous expression by the way. But without that WTF moment you would never have really known......

[mary something]

Isn't it something that Kane always comes up on these types of threads? It hardly seems that denouncing him is the same as being overly judgemental. He bought himself a sex change, then he bought himself another one when the first didn't work out. Now he is actively trying to make it more difficult for TS people to receive treatment based upon his own experiences... he was expecting the sex to be better he said at one point.

Big difference between denouncing that and saying he doesn't speak for me, he is nothing like me, and judging some poor soul who but for the grace of God...

As if transition would be any easier if no one had ever detransitioned.

[Marleena]

I am HOPING the mods will NOT lock this thread because I would like comment on a few things later tonight. I don't have time to read back through it all and write a semi intelligent post right now.

Hurry up Arbon! I'm sure your post will be fine.

Mine on the other hand well not so much.:D I'm better off reading and listening instead. I'm off to a PC Tech forum before I get too depressed here.

[LeaP]

Isn't it something that Kane always comes up on these types of threads? It hardly seems that denouncing him is the same as being overly judgemental. He bought himself a sex change, then he bought himself another one when the first didn't work out. Now he is actively trying to make it more difficult for TS people to receive treatment based upon his own experiences... he was expecting the sex to be better he said at one point.

Big difference between denouncing that and saying he doesn't speak for me, he is nothing like me, and judging some poor soul who but for the grace of God...


Kane was a fetishist or a crossdresser or both. He bypassed the gatekeeping system just as a lot here advocate. Then he bought his SRSes and went on the attack, just as you say.

So right up to the point when he went on the attack, he was really no different than the deluded "transvestite" of the earlier thread response, convinced of his course for all the wrong reasons. Yet the plea is sympathy and understanding for them.

I think Kane is a pretty good example of what happens when people bypass care standards and when non-TS people transition. They screw up their own lives and sometimes they screw with yours and mine when they hit the news. He is exactly the same as anyone else who should not transition and buys his way. That includes a working class CD who's scrimps and saves to do the same thing. The difference? Kane has a lot more money. Both essentially make the SAME colossal mistake. Think his blaming others distinguishes him? Not so. Lots of people are prepared to blame others for their mistakes.

[*Maya*]

I thought someone here said TS were defined by transition... but now there can be transitioned non-TS people? So what are we left with to prove we are TS?
As if we needed to prove it... ( to others here, lol) :)

[mary something]

I'm not prepared to say that Kane is a good example of a person who bypasses care standards, I don't see a lot of similarities between him and for example Christine Daniels. I know people on this site who have bypassed care standards and they seem to be doing just fine, even as much that if I disagree with some of their statements I still admire their achievements.

There is an element of chance and luck in life no matter the endeavor. Best laid plans are important but being realistic and eyes open regarding reality and how severe the stakes are is very important. Doubt and fear of failure is important. Not having doubt isn't the mark of a ts, it seems to me that doubt and fear of failure is the fuel for the motivation that makes someone become a juggernaut.

Love the quote lea but it isn't actually a Buddhist quote, it's from the Freemasons.

[Ann Louise]

The only WTF moment I've had is regarding how could I possibly have squandered all those years of my life, living the role of an actor in a very bad movie. I truly would walk across hot coals to keep this happening if I had to, or pull the plug if I was forced to "go back." Seriously. No going back, ever.

[later:

WoW - I make a point of trying not to look too closely at foregoing posts so as not to unduly color what I was attempting to convey to the OP with the opinions of others. Early on in my transition, like the first three months or so, I kept a small, hand-written journal, started when I was really, fully back in the "shell" that I lived in. I was a manic-depressive crazy person writhing in the throes of GD.

What I've now come to understand is that I was testing the hypothesis that I had actually discovered my genuine self, and that transition was the only way out. So, to be more precise, I did have questioning moments back then, but in my mind, this thread's use of "WTF," and its inclusion of the expletive seems to imply a major reversal, rather than a justifiable, rigorous test of my transition hypothesis.

I think that, early on, anyone who would dare to consider transition, would and should have repeated, critical examinations of the premise that they are indeed truly trans, all as part of being absolutely sure that they're doing the right thing. Should one think about how far along in the process of transition does the realization that it's not for you constitute a "de-transition?" After the first dose of spiro? After the first exposure to estradiol? After several doses? After some amount of time? After you develop breasts? Seems to me it's very personal, and individually unique as to what point it changes from a decision not to proceed, and a true reversal.

Love and kindness to you all. We all need lots of that, no?

))0(( Ann ))0((

]

[arbon]

Hurry up Arbon! I'm sure your post will be fine.

.

I forgot what I wanted to say! lol

I think it has all been said by others anyway.

[Cheryl123]

Not knowing who I am, and possible being just a dumb tranny (the verdict has yet to handed down from on-high) I've tried to steer clear on this one. Yet I have this recurring thought which I will share. I think about a person who has de-transitioned, enduring all the unimaginable (for me) agony that entails, and I picture her visiting her therapist. Should she be met with scorn and derision and called a failure and fraud? Or should she be greeted with love, kindness, empathy and understanding? I know my answer. Beware of judging another when you cannot imagine what it is like to walk in her shoes ... that's all I'm saying.

[Marleena]

I forgot what I wanted to say! lol

Lol.. you had nothing? I'm glad I left when I did then.:)

[rachael.davis]

Good Morning

I put up a reply earlier, which Tamara deleted. I have sent her an apology, and in case anyone here read it prior to it being nuked I also offer you an apology.
I started the post with a quote from Last of the Mohecans "Do not try to understand them, and do not try to make them understand you, for they are a people apart and their ways make no sense.
A couple of years ago I put up a frightened post http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?159303-Doubt&highlight= about having a panic attack when I realized that I was moving into a brand new reality. I received a number of supportive replies, from a number of wonderful women. It probably kept me from throwing in the towel, running back into a bottle, or becoming one of the statistics who tried a .38 headache tablet. I am very gratefull for the help and support they gave.
I don't understand the level of venom I saw in a couple of these posts.
Rachael

[Jorja]

Going back? Back where? For me, there is and always was only one direction to go. Full steam ahead. Go until you hear the glass brake. Guess what? That glass hasn't broke yet, after 30+ years.

[Ariamythe]

Wow. I step away for a few days and this thread goes in all sorts of directions. I will have to read it all before responding more ...

[rachael.davis]

I love your attitude Jorja.

[Angela Campbell]

In my mind there is no going back because everyone knows. I will always be this and I cannot undo it. It is less a case of me changing into something that can be changed back I was always like this I just kept everyone from knowing. Well now they know. Changing my body is just the smallest part. Like losing weight or a new hairdo or coloring the hair. That is all superficial and is only a visual thing. Inside I am not changing at all. I am just not hiding anymore. As I said before there is nothing to change back to.

[dreamer_2.0]

Quite the thread indeed. Fascinating, if at times fiery, discussion. Really good points made by several people on both or every side that's being debated. I think this simply shows transition isn't as black and white as some may think; many shades of gray (at least fifty *snicker*).

Not knowing the people who de-transitioned or their reasons for doing so, I can't, nor would, judge them. Did the system fail? Maybe. Did the transitioners in question fail themselves? Maybe. There are too many variables to consider that frankly I'm surprised anyone would see their situations as black and white, even if they are a seemingly well educated mentor. I've always been under the impression that the more educated you are the less black and white you see the world. Depends on the person, I suppose.

I've often posted my own doubts on whether I'm trans or not and have only recently accepted that I am. As transitioning is such a massive decision it only seems natural that one would question themselves and have several WTF moments (I'm having them already). As previously mentioned we're all capable of rational thought and as our situations are all different, again it makes sense that our transitions themselves will also be different. We'll naturally have some commonalities but will likely approach transition in our own way, reaching various milestones at different times and approach challenges differently (some more gracefully than others). Considering these differences I think it's fair to say that some may get further into their transition than others before they realize that this isn't right for them and retreat. Granted if they don't reach that conclusion until being post-op then I'd also scratch my head wondering why it took so long for them to come to this realization. Regardless, I don't think this necessarily means they were never trans in the first place and feel it's wrong to judge them as such.

If transsexualism is black and white then why bother allowing it to exist in the first place? We should just go back to the simple binary gender, male and female with no continuum. But wait, that doesn't work because we know gender is a continuum, wouldn't it be reasonable to say transsexualism is the same?

Personally I hope to never find myself in their position and that deciding to transition is right for me. Won't know until I actually begin though and even then I may not know until some point in the transition...hopefully sooner (MUCH sooner) than SRS though.

Having said all that, despite wanting SRS more than any other transitional procedure, after-care sounds messy, painful and annoying. Does being afraid of blood and having a low pain tolerance mean I'm not trans? God I hope so as I'd rather all this trans and GD stuff just go away and leave me alone!

[sandra-leigh]

Going back... to what... Yep, good question.

I am on an important cusp. The next step for me would be legal name change, which I feel I would like to do. But it is also the step that will "out" me to the world at large, beyond the people of the city I live in. Friends, relatives, many professional contacts... So I need to be certain this is the right thing for me to do.

But if I decide not to, then what is the alternative? The cork is out of the champagne bottle and it ain't never going back in again. At best, then, it would be trying to live "Gender Queer", keep the legal identity and clench my fists when people use it. Like going into a bakery and seeing a beautiful pastry but buying the hamburg buns instead because they are "safer", and every bite of the hamburg buns, be acutely aware that I could have had the pastry if I had only dared to.

[rachael.davis]

Hi Sandra

I told a friend of mine (genetic girl) about the possability of going back, she sort of smirked, and said "OK so how did ramming the Genie back into the lamp work for you that two or three hundred times you tried"?
Ouch

[sandra-leigh]

:yt: But when the only choice is to pour the champagne into a lovely new glass, my "think outside the box" brain says, "Oh, but you could let it dry up instead." (Geez, Brain, can't you shut up for a while?)

[dreamer_2.0]

Drink the champagne. Maybe that'll help the brain shut up for a bit. ;)