Trans Etiquette

[Beth-Lock]

As more and more transsexuals are out there, and we are meeting each other and interacting with the public more and more, I think some principles of etiquette ought to be compiled and made known, since you will not find them in your grandmother's etiquette book.

One tip I got from You Tube, was how to deal with an invitation to go out on a date, when you are out in public, at a bar, and the man approaching you does not it seems, realize you are a transsexual. The tip was, don't tell him right out on the spot, or he will go back to his buddies, if he is not trans friendly, and tell them, so you will be outed to virtually everyone, and the milieu turn hostile. Tell him quietly, (say, if you are pre-op or non-op), when he is alone,(but you are in a safe milieu or doing it by email or telephone), at a later time.

The two other classes of events, that are problematic as to etiquette cases include what to do if you meet another trans, especially if you don't know them, and how should members of the general public treat a trans in public. One notable case, is when a transsexual or even a cross-dresser in femme, should be accepted without a fuss, if he/she uses the women's washroom, and what the laws are in that regard too. We all know, nobody should make a fuss, and both should be accepted, but the general public does not know this yet. The word has not gotten out, so a book of etiquette should cover that.

Such an etiquette book would also be useful for lecturers and trainers to hand out, when called in by an organization to help them become GBLT friendly or just trans-friendly, and open and welcoming to trans members. Concerning GLBT education programs for various organizations, trans it seems, are the least understood by everyone else. The needed public education might be helped along by an etiquette book.

As for meeting another trans in public and you read her, what do you do? When two trans recognize each other in public, or even encounter each other, in a straight public milieu, they have to be very, very subtle and considerate of the fact that the other may be not just sensitive, but vulnerable, and as well, possibly at a precarious position in her life. The fail safe response, is not to acknowledge that you know each other are trans, and treat each other as if we are non-trans.

A particular case of this, is when, even if you have seen each other at a trans or GLBT social event like a dance, or in a trans support group, or in other similar cases, where you may have crossed paths, even if you think the other trans should know you, it seems unwise to assume that is the case. They may have pointed their eyes at you, but not seen you, passing over you as just part of the visual background clutter, especially in a big gathering.

This can be a problem even for non-trans socializing, and I guess I should look and see what a traditional etiquette book says about it. The scenario is as follows. If two non-trans people meet, and one does that, I mean assume an acquaintance between you or a friendship that in reality, never formed, and that someone comes up and introduces themselves, and you don't know them from Adam, and they insist you do, that leads to an awkward public moment doesn't it? (Celebrities must face that all the time, because half the world's simple souls and those who think it is okay to act stupid, think that since they have seen the person on tv weekly, they "know them" enough to consider them acquaintances, or even buds.) If it involves two trans people, or a CD and a transsexual, the potential for misunderstanding, hard feelings and one being inadvertently outed, or feeling they just have been, (correctly or by overreaction), can make the situation turn quite nasty and embarrassing.

Any comments on these conclusions? Any other cases that you have opinions on?

[sandra-leigh]

I was recently looking on another site, and believed, but was not certain, that I recognized someone from here but who was not publicly trans on the other site. I considered sending an oblique message to nod hello, but I decided against it. I did not have anything related to that other site to talk to them about, and over here we did not interact much, not enough to "hello" as a friendly acquaintance. I realized that, in effect, my contacting them there would, in effect, be not much more than an "I clocked you". A minor "ah ha" on my part is not worth disturbing them. And I might have been wrong.

[thechic]

The correct Etiquette is to treat a transsexual woman as a normal every day woman, nothing more nothing less.

[Megan72]

I think that is simply the best and most appropriate way of dealing with this issue. Remember KISS, keep it simple Stu@&$.

[I Am Paula]

My sister, who knows more about trans issues than most (She has held my hand every step of the way.) asked me why I didn't acknowledge a woman in transition in a consignment shop. I explained that an acknowledgement was the same as outing someone. She had no idea.
To the outsider looking in, transwomen are a mysterious breed, and most have no idea how to greet, treat, or meet them.
My sister introduced me to a few of her friends as 'My newly minted sister'. Even tho' they knew I was her former brother, after a while I just got her to say 'sister', and let them figure it out.
The world needs an etiquette book, but, alas, few have enough interest to actually read it.

[Rachel Smith]

Do unto others as you would want done to you, no book required.

Rachel

[KellyJameson]

Before I consciously understood I was suffering from GID, before I named it so was only "reacting to it" doing all that subconscious stuff in my mind to create (unconsciously) my actual gender I was "gender blind" as a way to adapt to the trauma.

Since I could not live my gender, my mind "eliminated gender" from existence so I did not "see gender" which makes you very ignorant socially because everyone else "see's gender" and is living accordingly.

It is only something I recently realized, now that I'm living gender like everyone else.

This now comes in handy because I still do not (out of habit) see people as their gender so do not identify it.

Most of the words related to gender are missing from my vocabulary and I still do not think in terms of gender when interacting with someone so I do not really need to know or care what gender they are or where they may fall on the spectrum.

GID made me obsessed with my own missing and unlived gender but blind to the gender of everyone else and for the same reasons.

I always interact with each person as a individual and not a label so there is much less likelihood of offending someone because I simply do not care what their gender is.

Etiquette can become less of a problem as we move away from labeling others and wait for them to identify themselves.

I became gender blind to cope with the pain of GID and by being blind to gender was insensitive to others which taught me to be sensitive which resulted in my now out of habit waiting for others to teach me who they are.

The problem with being gender blind as a coping device for GID is it keeps the problem of GID buried because you are now blind to the problem.

The mind to protect itself traps itself in a paradox.

[AllieSF]

I try to live the "Treat everyone as a human being" way. I agree that the general public and even us here need to be better educated on who and what we are and that we have every right to be that way and should be treated as anyone else is treated. I would definitely not call it an "Etiquette Book". I might use a title like "Guidelines for Interfacing with Diverse Others". Etiquette rings to much like one "should" versus one "should try". I really do not like orders from others! I think that in a way, those guidelines are actually starting to make their way into the real world all around us as companies are now dealing openly and in most cases very positively to transitioning employees, law enforcement agencies are getting special training on how to protect the rights of all citizens and deal professionally and respectfully with all of us, and even news agencies, including in the media, are setting up standards on how to write, which politically correct words, about us in their news stories.

The other thing to consider is that each one of us is different and not just in the gender presentation way. I am extroverted and someone else is introverted, some are "A" type personalities and some are not, some speak and think at the same time and others listen, think and then speak, and so on. Using your example, whether one should acknowledge, seek out, try to talk with a sister when out really depends on how one can carry that off and also how the other may react. I see others like me quite often. If I get the chance to talk with them, I might, but the last thing I will do is say "Hello sister"! I will just say hello, or that I like their outfit, or comment on the long line at the cash register. If they react the opposite to what I expect, I forget about it and move on.

So, your idea has a lot of merit, but doing it well will not be easy for a lot of reasons.

[Kimberly Kael]

Do unto others as you would want done to you, no book required.

It's a nice starting point, but it definitely falls down under a lot of circumstances. Someone who isn't trans won't have useful intuition about what they'd want in a trans person's shoes. And not all circumstances are equivalent. While I'm not sure everyone at work knows about my history, it's not a big issue and I don't mind recognition from others. That doesn't mean everyone feels the same way.

Imagine if masochists followed the golden rule...

[sandra-leigh]

Not so long ago I privately complemented someone who was publicly transsexual. I got back an earful, seemingly having committed an inexcusable near-crime for acknowledging even in private that she was TS rather than GG -- even though her profile clearly said TS in transition in multiple places. "You should know that I am trans, but you should also not know that I am trans!" Oh, bother.

There is, in other words, just no winning with some people. It is enough some days to make you feel like you shouldn't talk to or wave to or nod to or even be anywhere near anyone, in case they take it wrong.

I do complement GGs, and much of the time it is taken well. So for me, to treat transwomen or cross-dressers the same as I treat everyone else, that would include complementing them if something caught my eye. Deliberately not acknowledging them "because it might give them away" would require me to treat them differently, which in itself would signal they were different; it might also possibly be perceived as me disdaining them, treating them as if they were doing something wrong.

[AllieSF]

"There is, in other words, just no winning with some people. It is enough some days to make you feel like you shouldn't talk to or wave to or nod to or even be anywhere near anyone, in case they take it wrong."

You are so right Sandra. So, I have decided to be fair and try to treat everyone the same. If someone has an issue with it when I was treating them "fairly, like everyone else" then that is their problem not mine. They can deal with it because I will not!

[Kathryn Martin]

I got back an earful, seemingly having committed an inexcusable near-crime for acknowledging even in private that she was TS rather than GG -- even though her profile clearly said TS in transition in multiple places.

I guess this is hard to understand, even though I am known to have transsexual medical background I do not discuss this and I prefer it not be discussed.

[Beth-Lock]

People often have completely different opinions on a given incident. That also happens with disputes on non-trans issues, when both sides think they are right and the other wrong. So they go to the etiquette book, and see who the expert who has thought things out, says is right, that is describes what behaviour is right, and that someone arguing that it is, wrong, are the ones really wrong. It is the law, when it comes to etiquette.

In other words, an etiquette book settles such arguments, and that is its second most important purpose.

[AllieSF]

Beth, I think I understand what you are saying. However, I am seeing your Etiquette Book as a set of rules. Is that what you mean? There are a lot of suggested unofficial rules in the general living life etiquette books, some that definitely make sense in most situations and others that can be easily ignored with no guilt feelings in a lot of other situations. Rules on the other hand usually have penalties associated with them and are used to help ensure that laws are kept, sporting games are played fairly under uniform standards. The punishments keep the participants in line.

The problem with using an Etiquette Book as a set of rules is that who is that "expert" who developed that book or is "authorized to interpret that book? That can get back to the similar question of what is truly dressing appropriately, dressing your age, pursuing a career, making a presentation at work, and so on. Who sets those standards and who enforces them and in the end, and why? I look at these types of recommendations, "books", as a means of providing assistance to and educating the uninformed or inexperienced others as to what is generally accepted and recommended behavior, but which does not say that one "has" to act in a certain way. Read them and then decide what is your own personal style that works for you. In your idea, if I am understanding it correctly, for the Etiquette Book to settle arguments, both parties have to buy into the rules beforehand. When they are guidelines they serve as a good reference and starting point that can help one decide how to act and react, but carry no penalties except when someone who goes by the book complains because the other is not, i.e. a confrontation based on a negative reaction by one of the parties.

That is why I suggested another name for your book. Now, I am not saying that people should purposely out others. However, I am saying that if someone wants to compliment another person, one should be able to do that without worrying that the other will react negatively to that compliment. The same goes for wanting to meet another person. If someone forewarns me that the other person is very sensitive about certain topics, I generally heed that advice and try to respect their wishes. That being said, it may be easy for a quiet, introverted, shy, or very private person to not talk with others. However, for us more extroverted types that is not is generally not possible, because we talk with others as part of our own personality, life style and cultural upbringing. I am from the Mid-west and it is very common for people to talk with someone at the adjoining restaurant table. In other parts of the country that is not common at all and may even be considered by some to be intrusive. So, who is wrong? In my opinion, neither. We both will learn from experience, for the extrovert to be careful initiating a conversation with the neighbors, and for the other side to realize and accept that people are just being themselves, which is natural and good, and therefore something that can and should be tolerated up to some personal breaking point. In other words trying to accommodate both sides.

So, long story short, I don't think that it will settle a lot of disputes. As a guideline for the general public, companies, diversity training in all parts of society it may very well be a great idea.

[sandra-leigh]

I guess this is hard to understand, even though I am known to have transsexual medical background I do not discuss this and I prefer it not be discussed.

Kathryn, you probably do not do the equivalent of posting on your business site that you have a transsexual background.

This was not a case of me "reading" a transsexual: this was a case where their profile said "transsexual" more than once, including in their major self-introduction. One of her lines pretty much made it a topic of discussion rather than just a background fact. I probably would not have known if she had not written about it.

[Beth-Lock]

... I am seeing your Etiquette Book as a set of rules. .. There are a lot of suggested unofficial rules in the general living life etiquette books, some that definitely make sense in most situations and others that can be easily ignored .... Rules on the other hand usually have penalties associated with them and are used to help ensure that laws are kept, sporting games are played fairly under uniform standards. The punishments keep the participants in line.


That can get back to the similar question of what is truly dressing appropriately... and so on. Who sets those standards and who enforces them and in the end, and why?
I look at these types of recommendations, "books", as a means of providing assistance to and educating the uninformed or inexperienced others as to what is generally accepted and recommended behavior, but which does not say that one "has" to act in a certain way. Read them and then decide what is your own personal style that works for you.
In your idea, if I am understanding it correctly, for the Etiquette Book to settle arguments, both parties have to buy into the rules beforehand. When they are guidelines they serve as a good reference and starting point that can help one decide how to act and react, but carry no penalties except when someone who goes by the book complains because the other is not, i.e. a confrontation based on a negative reaction by one of the parties....That is why I suggested another name for your book.

Of course a book of suggestions for people who do not know what to do because they are not trans or are new to it, is one thing, yet if it is to fulfill my goal of being a hand-out for those running a sort of sensitivity training for organizations trying to implement a trans friendly, etc., program, then it might be used by management to discipline staff, not necessarily to judge in a disciplinary procedure, but as background to decide the judgement in a disciplinary hearing. There are generally specific laws that try to regulate the behaviour of police. On the other hand, offences/outrages concerning many human rights issues, like mistreatment of women, anti-feminist sort, are right now handled by human rights tribunals whose powers and problematic tendency to bypass the safeguards of the justice system via the courts has been a worry of civil liberertarians. But they merge the education and the penalty role, rather uniquely. I guess we have to look to precedents.

But it would be a good starting point for GBLT trainers, to educated the members of say, emergency services organizations, (police, fire, paramedics etc.) It is difficult and these have been faced before in prior programs, like women's and minority rights cases. It would be nice to have learned from prior programs' mistakes, too, don't you think?


The problem with using an Etiquette Book as a set of rules is that who is that "expert" who developed that book or is "authorized to interpret that book?

Experts and authors, produce competing books now. Like the SOC, they are voluntarily adopted or not.... But I have pondered who is best to compile the rules, etc., and see a committee of trans, etc., as best for either writing/compiling the book or vetting and re-editing such etiquette books.


Now, I am not saying that people should purposely out others. ... If someone forewarns me that the other person is very sensitive about certain topics, I generally heed that advice ... That being said, it may be easy for a quiet, introverted, shy, or very private person to not talk with others. However, for us more extroverted types that is not is generally not possible, because we talk with others as part of our own personality, life style and cultural upbringing. I am from the Mid-west and it is very common for people to talk with someone at the adjoining restaurant table. In other parts of the country that is not common at all and may even be considered by some to be intrusive. So, who is wrong? In my opinion, neither.

I agree it is part of a big subject of scholars, a study specifically where social psychology and sociology meet. I had in mind psychology Professor Little's teaching locally on introverts and extroverts, and behaviour. E.g. in big cities like NYC where extroverts are more comfortable than introverts, and you don't dare stare at anyone or let a facial expression cross your face in public, for fear of angering another, who takes it as implied judgment, even in non-trans issues, is one milieu. "What are you looking at?" might be an angry response for looking at a stranger. In the country if you don't look at a stranger, smile, and even wave in passing, people think you might be a problem, or weird.

A whole lot of such issues have to be put in context, as you point out. Psychologists and sociologists have already been working on this. All that is needed is more scholarly work on trans, and GBLT cases to add to it.


So... I don't think that it will settle a lot of disputes. As a guideline for the general public, companies, diversity training in all parts of society it may very well be a great idea

Can we have one general purpose, one-size-fits-all book, or need a family of books? Most likely something more like the latter, but starting with a booklet combining some of this and written by a trans or a committee of trans, would be a good start, IMHO.

[rachael.davis]

Imagine if masochists followed the golden rule...

Have done unto others as you would have done unto yourself? That does sound problematical

[mikiSJ]

Imagine if masochists followed the golden rule...

Made my morning, thanks Kimberly!

[Kathryn Martin]

Kathryn, you probably do not do the equivalent of posting on your business site that you have a transsexual background.

I actually did for about six months after I transitioned. Then I took the references off because unless I am outed people that don't know me don't even think about it. I am not stealth at all, in fact I am the only known women with a transsexual history lawyer east of Montreal. There may be others who are stealth. The issue is though that the fact that I was born transsexual no longer defines me because the problem has been fixed. I understand why you would have acknowledged that person as a transsexual when you did. There is also the matter of stating it yourself or being confronted with it by someone else even if it is done entirely appropriately. It's both a validation question and a confrontation with your past issue. So I don't acknowledge even clear history because the medical history of others is really none of my business.

[Beth-Lock]

I think the discussion has trivialized the importance of having rules that people defy, to the peril of themselves or others. Two personal incidences, involving myself, have led me go understand that rules are neither optional or a matter of taste, that can vary among individuals, without being subject to social control. It has gone beyond that now.

Say, for example, someone knows I am trans and shares it with others. I feel threatened, as remaining stealth is the only sure way to avoid problems, even major, fatal ones. so that place, a restaurant, club, church or whatever, is now off limits to me. The town is small, and there are few alternatives. Now I am more alone than ever, and distrust all organizations I could join or public places I could go.

The bottom line is, that I wonder if my joining any local trans group or even a trans internet site, to help others that are beginning their journey by telling my story and experiences and to fight for the trans cause is worth it. Obviously, I am paying a very high price in my personal life for my good intentions. Bless them all! Should I continue, in effect, making that mistake, or look forward to moving to a new city, and keeping to myself.

Not knowing and not following the sort of rules we should compile, costs us. Bless them all, the ignorant, the stupidly insensitive, the socially clumsy. Bless them all! That is all I have to say. Period!

[Ann Louise]

The following is a link to a Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) document referred to me by the staff at the Seattle Office for Civil Rights (SOCR) that I attached to my coming out letter (Sticky: Coming Out Letters or Emails).

http://web.mit.edu/trans/tipsfortransallies.pdf

The SOCR has apparently used it before in other trans-education situations, and although it's rather brief, it succinctly covers alot of trans-etiquette ground important to us. It was put together by Trans@MIT:

http://web.mit.edu/trans/

Many hundreds of city workers eventually had my letter and that attachment pass through their work in-boxes, and I was very proud to have been the agent through which this brief, valuable educational opportunity on our behalf passed on to them. My immediate co-workers, about 50 folks, seem to have taken the points made therein especially to heart; they are almost unerringly trans-polite to me each and every workday (the exception being those #$%^&@& mis-gendered pronouns, of course).

Hope it helps out. All the best to you girls, we're all in this together,

)0( Ann )0(

[AllieSF]

Thanks Ann for the links. I read the first one and even though it is summarized it seems to hit a lot of key points for those who may be uniformed, a great starter document.

[Badtranny]

So is it wrong that my mom walks me around her church owned apartment complex introducing me as her "tranny son"?

That was actually witnessed by a friend of mine who almost choked herself to death stifling a giggle.

[AllieSF]

Melissa, I am not sure if that was me on your "Smudge" run? I think the guidelines are good, but sometimes we break them with great results, or is that, I break them with no negative results??

In my reality, for sensitive, introverted (not you), quiet or conservative people following the guidelines (almost rules for them) become more important for themselves and how they live their lives and how the interact with others living their lives. For other people more extroverted, comfortable being themselves and not worrying so much what others think, sometimes not following all of those recommendations does work for them and they do not necessarily cause harm to others. That is why in one of my original posts in this thread I made a distinction between guidelines and rules. Rules normally are associated with penalties when not followed, while guidelines have consequences that may be good or not so good and that need to be dealt with, sometimes becoming a learning experience for both parties, which in my opinion is a very important part of growing up and learning how to live life among others of all shapes and makeup. We learn a lot more from good and bad experiences than we do from formal education and teaching.