Can cross dressing alone really end a relationship?

[Jenniferathome]

There have been several threads recently where cross dressing is cited as the reason for the end of a relationship.

I have long advocated that cross dressing can never be the sole reason for a breakup. In the case of a marriage, or for that matter a multi year relationship cross dressing is just a "thing." It's an odd thing and certainly not for all women but there are a million "things" that make a multi year relationship. In a recent post, the OP writes that they were in a 3 month relationship that ended due to cross dressing. That is not enough time vested for a woman who may be struggling with this to keep gutting it. To me, 3 months is just dating. So cross dressing can absolutely be THE reason for a breakup. A decade or two says there is more reason to stay and adjust to cross dressing.

So, is the length of a relationship not intimately intertwined with this decision?

[Dianne S]

I think crossdressing alone can kill a relationship if the SO is completely aghast at the idea (for religious reasons or general discomfort with gender ambiguity.) But I think it's pretty rare; most relationships that end do so IMO for a variety of reasons.

[Alice Torn]

Yes it can be. If the wife or SO believes it is an abomination, against God, she will end it.

[Beverley Sims]

Jennifer,
If after a long marriage and you have been honest with each other dressing would only be "one" of the things that can cause a split.
Early in a relationship and had the SO not known, I think Alice and Dawn have both explained that one succinctly.

"Cross dressing is weird" to someone that does not know about it.
At a party I have gone dressed and it is a hoot.
Every one likes the joke. Give it an hour and some get very weird about seeing a man they know wearing a dress.

[LilSissyStevie]

Why bother asking this question when you have already determined that "cross dressing can never be the sole reason for a breakup." Sure, people on here say all the time that it caused their breakup but they are not as smart as you and can't see the truth. You can comfortably discount their experience and stick to your dogma.

[CarlaWestin]

I think crossdressing alone can kill a relationship if the SO is completely aghast at the idea (for religious reasons or general discomfort with gender ambiguity.) But I think it's pretty rare; most relationships that end do so IMO for a variety of reasons.

This sums up my point of view, exactly.

[Genny B]

I like Jennifer's thinking! I only wish I could get my SO to listen to her!

Genny B

[kimdl93]

This is a difficult thing to prove. In my personal experience, no. In fact my failed marriage had survived the revelation quite well and was not ended by my CDing. Nor has it harmed my present marriage.

I am sure, however, that here are some women who simply cannot accept or appreciate having a CDr as a partner...for a variety of reasons. But I also suspect that factors unrelated to CDing can be far more destructive of relationships.

[Christina Kay]

Having just recently told my wife I like to cd. I don't think it can be the sole reason. But it does set into motion, a series of questions . That can shake the foundation of your commitment. Yes it is a hurdle to be dealt with. A lot depends on how you are as a couple. To shatter the view your wife has of you. Is road not easily walked. Even though they might have hints you cd. It's seldom easy for a women to accept her spouse in womens clothes. Mostly it is a slow work in progress of acceptance, visually and mentally. I am at the early stages of acceptance. I am sure after 32yrs of marriage, things work to a balance point.. Isn't that all we can hope for, balance. Yesterday my wife said to me "since you came out to me, the whole energy of this house has changed for the better. It's a happier place" So yes the length of a relationship, is intimately intertwined. To how you go on from that day forward.

[Lorileah]

Never say never and always avoid always. I am sure somewhere sometime someone divorced over just dressing. Just like I know that men divorce their wives when they start to age just because they don't look like they used to. These people are superficial and petty and honestly not worth anyone's time. I say if you love someone, truly love someone not just say you do, that it takes a major disruption to break you up. I had an aunt and uncle who slept apart for 50 plus years, they had one child, they didn't hold hands, they didn't kiss, he berated and teased her all the time, she called him names. Yet I know they were the most "in love" couple I ever met. Nothing would have broken them apart. When you find that cross dressing would be nothing more than a blip on the radar. My opinion is that too many people marry not for love but because they think it is expected or they see a physical attraction and not a soul attraction. Those would be the ones who would separate or divorce over cross dressing, they were (are) not really in love but are just going through the motions. Nature is wise, she makes our eyesight start to fail as we age so that we can still "see" our SO in the way we first did. The memory of how she/he looked is stronger than what they show now.

[~Joanne~]

On one hand, I think the CDing alone can, in some cases, be the sole reason for a relationship going south. On the other hand, I also think that it becomes the reason to justify ending a relationship that has a lot more problems than either party will admit to. The main problem being a lack of communication.

We hear about divorces, that once in front of a judge, the SO will bring the CDing into like the judge says "oh, I didn't know THAT, divorce granted" as if that one factor alone is enough to get it done.

[Sophie_C]

Jen, I believe it's really on a case-by-case basis. Some people have a certain image of their partner that is "shattered" by the image of the opposite gender they are attracted to, but many times it's just an excuse. I have a friend of mine who came out as bisexual in private to his wife, but never, ever cheated or even considered the possibility of doing it, but she used that as an "out" to divorce him, since she had lost interest a while back. She acted all shocked, horrified and basically like he had cheated on her, but he never would have in a million years. The same drama/excuse can go for crossdressing. They were together for like 7 years, so in a similar scenario, it was like what you are saying.

To me, I'm more trans and am not likely to date much unless I transition, so I have an entirely different situation.

[JenniferR771]

I have an online friend with two kids in college. Self-employed. His office computer crashed and he used his home computer. He left the thumb drive in, forgot to delete his history, didn't log out or something. His wife of 25 years found his online stuff. It did not go well. He has his own apartment now.

[MatildaJ.]

My perspective as a GG is that a low-level of cross-dressing, say once or twice a week, in private (or in public but unlikely to be seen by people they know) probably wouldn't end a strong marriage.

But if the husband shifts in a couple of years from no CDing (except in secret) to CDing all the time they're together, loses interest in previously shared activities because he's obsessed with the CDing, refuses to have sex the way they used to, or if the wife starts to think that the CDing is just a stage on the way to transitioning... that could certainly make the marriage feel like just a roommate situation, and roommates who don't have much in common.

Then would you say it was the CDing which ended the marriage, or the self-centered, obsessive approach to CDing?

[Jenniferathome]

Jess, your example, to me, is well beyond cross dressing. Self obsession is not a relationship. Would that not be true in anything ones partner does? Substitute cross dressing for golf and is it really any different?

[MatildaJ.]

I agree, and either spouse can become obsessed with something -- whether politics, video games, sex, or remodeling.

[Ayame]

It can end a relationship for many reasons. One maybe if you were not open from the start it can cause trust issues. Maybe they just arent attracted to women, or feminine men (everyone is entitled to have a type, just because they like a certain sex does not mean they like everyone with those parts!). A lot of people also have an alternate personality when they are en femme, so your partner might miss the you they fell for. There could be religious reasons, or maybe they do not want to be associated with the stigma.The list goes on and on. However, I encourage you to date someone that loves you for you no matter how you present, but you are free to do as you wish.

[ReineD]

You cite two scenarios:

1. The short-term relationship: I agree that just the CDing would be enough to turn a woman off. She hasn't yet formed attachment bonds with her bf.

2. A committed or long-term relationship: I also believe there must be something else that propels the separation other than just the CDing. So many things do happen in committed relationships and don't about half of them end in divorce anyway? A lot of people do not have proper relationship skills to withstand all the issues that crop up. So resentments do build that have nothing to do with the CDing. And sometimes people are not aware of the source of their resentments. They just become angry at and intolerant of their partners.

Last, I agree with Jess. If the husband goes into a major pink fog, has absolutely no balance and refuses to honor his wife's more moderate boundaries, I think this might be enough for a separation even if there are no other major issues. But I have to wonder ... if the husband can feel that he has the right to such a high level of free reign, how else would this have played out in their marriage even before the CDing became an issue - hence the suppressed build-up of resentment.

I suppose there are just too many variables to come up with a statement that fits everyone. :p

[AllieSF]

I understand where you are coming from Jennifer, and you know that I do not totally agree with your point that in the "good" marriage crossdressing will "never" break up that marriage because there are probably bigger issues in the background. My point of view is that, yes, crossdressing revealed after the fact can be the principal deal breaker to a long term and a short term relationship. Is it always the reason? No. However, crossdressing is nowhere comparable to a man having a common, acceptable and very time consuming hobby, be it golf, hunting or even riding a bicycle on a very regular basis where they are absent from the family on weekends for extended periods of time. Some things are similar, but when the wife answers her friend's question, "Where is your better half today?", with these other activities she does not have a strange secret to keep from her friend, may not have the potential shame that her husband, her man, is at home dressing up in women's clothes. She has a secret that she probably cannot share and is very hesitant to share with anyone but her closest friend and confidant. It is an added and unwanted burden that now she must carry. Some just can't handle that.

As I always state in my rebuttal to your absolute belief is that with an over 50% divorce rate in the USA, it is a fact to say that most, or at least half of all marriages will end in divorce for whatever reason. Those marriages that endure do that for many reasons, and not all are because of true love. There may be financial reasons, co-dependency, inability to make a very difficult decision, cultural beliefs, shame in getting a divorce and many other reasons. In Lorileah's example of a couple sleeping in separate bedrooms for so many years and the husband berating his wife in front of others, that to me is far from love. Not knowing the details of that situation but having seen many like that in my 66 years of living, it may be love, but one that is really strange to me and not one that I would want to emulate. It sounds like one of the wife's dependency on her provider and her fear of making the decision to escape her continual moments of hell because she may not know how she could make it on her own alone. That is and was very typical of my parents generation. The wives many times put up with the abuses of her husband because they were "supposed" to and because they were totally dependent on those husbands to provide them for their needed support, which is so different from todays generation where many times both parties are educated and have or are working professionally, both supporting their family and life styles.

As for people getting married for the wrong reason, that is a definite true statement. However, how do you define true love when you are just out of college and meet the woman or man of your dreams? How do you know that both parties will mature, grow, learn and continue to be, more or less, the same person that they fell in love with when they got married? That in my opinion is not easy at all. People change over time, one may go from being very liberal to being more conservative while the other may change the opposite way. One who was active, may become more sedate and truly enjoy those quiet moments at home watching the boob tube, while the other misses those moments out doing things away from home. So many differences may arise that introduce changes into a relationship that eventually sour that same relationship, even when the communication process works well.

Were these people truly in love when they got married? I would say that, yes, the majority probably were, with great hopes that they would live together forever. Was it a mistake for them to get married in the first place if they eventually got divorced? To me, if they enjoyed their time together and neither was abused by the other during that time, I would say no. We make decisions several times a day, most inconsequential to the overall scheme of things. When we get married, I believe that most of us are making hard decisions based on what we see around us and our ability to make sound decisions, based on what we think may happen in the future, and what we have learned to-date based on our own experiences and what we see around us, i.e. it is a decision based on what we know and think at that moment.

As for marriage being forever, I guess this continual discussion about crossdressing not being the main reason for a divorce has got me thinking about it in a different way. Who says that marriage is and should be forever, a religion, common sense, a rule of nature? We are creatures of nature and in nature there are very few creatures that mate for life. It is well known that the male sexual drive is stronger than a females for the propagation of the species.

Since we do not live in tribes anymore, similar to a pride of lions where the group in many ways looks after the safety and care of its members, providing food and defense from outsiders, teaming up in a long term relation where both sides provide services to and for the other and work toward the support of the other is a logical way to make it on our own with the family becoming our small tribe. Most religions since way back have had provisions and procedures for divorce. Why? Because they realize that not all unions are made in heaven (non-religious view) and practically speaking not all relationships were made for the long term no matter how well they started with all the great and good intentions involved.

Using my experience to a situation very similar to Lorileah's example, my uncle was a driven man who was successful financially and provided well for his family. He was also the controller in the family and everything was done his way. He was loud, arrogant and could be a very rough person at times. Later in life as an alcoholic he was very hard to be around. His wife, my wonderful and sweet aunt, suffered from all the abusive manners that my uncle exhibited in front of others and probably a lot worse when in private. I knew that he loved her and that she in her way loved him very much. But it had to be pure hell for her to continual being there every day, day after day, not knowing when nor how he may react to his abuses, and these abuses were not physical in any way. She suffered late in life from several stress induced illnesses that basically forced her to stay at home. The abuses were verbal and based on control and fueled by his own personality and the alcohol. She stayed with him because in that generation that is what you did and she had no way to support herself if she ever decided to divorce. Yes, there was definitely mutual love, and yes, there really was no easy way to escape the love/hell relationship for my aunt.

In summary after this long post, I think that we all should make very special efforts to make our relationships work, but as is obvious from the statistics, that does not always work. However, when whatever it is that brings down a relationship, including crossdressing, there may be no reason nor benefits to live in a situation that is non-beneficial to all involved, including those innocent children. Therefore, a divorce is in order and is best for all over the long run. And yes, crossdressing all by itself can be a major reason, above all other ongoing typical marriage issues, that can be much more than the straw that breaks the camels back. If an SO cannot accept it for moral, religious, cultural reasons, or decides that the burden that it puts on them and the family is too much to handle, they have every right to decide not to accept it as a part of their daily married life and is more than grounds for them to opt out of the relationship.

[Kate Simmons]

Not every situation is the same. CDing largely contributed to the end of my own marriage of 31 years.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I have a CD friend who is getting divorced over crossdressing.

Was it the only thing? I don't know. Maybe or maybe not.

Was it the last thing? The thing that broke the camel's back? Definitely.

[JennyLynn]

Jenn
All the lengthy previous posts.... you summed it up!! You win for using the fewest words to sum it up !

[Judith96a]

Jennifer,
I think that Alice and Dawn have a point. If the SO perceives cross dressing as totally repugnant / morally wrong the i can't see the relationship surviving regardless of duration.
I suspect, though, that the perception of having been deceived for so long is the real relationship ender.
As for your question, I think it's the level of commitment that's important. The duration of the relationship is relevant but there are loads of other factors. As with everything to do with this "thing" of ours, it's complicated. Now there's a surprise!

Regards
Judy

[Joanne.England]

I. Think it could. If my SO found out I would be sleeping in the car.

[SherriePall]

Will it end a long-term relationship? My experience is no. I told my wife after nearly 25 years of marriage. It took a couple of days before she stopped crying and not talking to me. I dreaded going to work. I dreaded coming home. I sincerely dreaded living for those couple of days. I simply lost my will to live (and I later told her that for those days I really didn't care if I lived or not).
We started talking, with her asking the usual questions and my answering them in the usual manner. For a while there was some lighthearted banter about CDing. Now we seldom talk about it (nearly 15 years later). She hasn't seen me and has voiced no desire to since an early-on maybe.
OK, I'm rambling. We did not break up. Though I figured it was over. She did, however, say in those first couple of days that if she knew before we got married that she would not have married me.
So, I consider myself one of the lucky ones even though she doesn't share this with me in all but a few aspects (lingerie washing and space sharing).
Maybe if I had some other qualities she did not like at the time, it might have been all over.

[ReineD]

If the SO perceives cross dressing as totally repugnant / morally wrong the i can't see the relationship surviving regardless of duration.

Even when this happens, there are deeper reasons that cause the rift. The biggest reason that wives find the CDing repugnant and morally wrong is because they don't get it. They think of the CDing in terms of Drag Queens at Gay Pride parades, they believe that their husbands must be dressing because they want to attract men, they believe they are not enough for their husbands in other words they think it is all a sexual fetish, plus they remember the defamatory remarks they've heard all their lives made by an unknowing media and ignorant people who in turn have gained their opinions from other people who knew just as little about variance in gender expression.

So the onus is on the CDer to educate his wife and to keep it in check until she learns more and to maintain a balance, reestablish trust, and remove the sense of threat, even if she never becomes fully supportive but instead she acknowledges that he does need to dress and she chooses to not be involved. This requires great communication skills, patience, and a marriage where there is mutual respect among two people who see themselves as equal partners in the relationship.

And how many CDers have the desire to talk at length about the CDing to their wives? How many are able to take the bull by the horns and be open and honest with their wives about their needs? How many will try to hide the fact they want breast forms or wigs, or to go out dressed? And so it's more likely that both sweep it under the carpet while the husband continues to keep some things private, while the wife continues to build up her own version of the story until the marriage's breaking point.

Admittedly, there must be some devout religious women who do think that the CDing is an aberration, but I seriously doubt this is the norm. If the marriage breaks up it is way more likely there was a failure to communicate.



I suspect, though, that the perception of having been deceived for so long is the real relationship ender.

Yes, this is a huge contributing factor as well. And if a wife feels that she was deceived, it will take a long time for her to rebuild trust that her husband is now telling her the truth and not hiding anything. Ever. And he must be patient of the time that it will take for her to grow in her understanding. And judging by the stories of people who do experience break ups, I don't think those CDers ever fully get there.

Let's not forget though ... we're only talking about a percentage of marriages that do break up over this. There are tons of marriages that don't, whether the wife is fully supportive or they agree that she will not be involved.

[Eryn]

My feeling is that if CDing alone ends a relationship then that relationship must have been quite shallow to begin with.

Relationships are multi-faceted entities, and most failed relationships fail because more than one of these facets goes bad. A CDer might be self-obsessed, a substance abuser, or be seeking outside relationships. The SO might have any of these failings as well, or they might have more respect for an outside influence than they do for their spouse. I have a non-CD friend whose 20+ year marriage is on the rocks for this last reason.

[teri222]

I agree Eryn,, very well said.

[carhill2mn]

I think that this is one of those questions that is best answered: "It depends upon the people involved". There are some marriages of 40 years or more that have ended due to crossdressing alone. There are also relationships of a only few weeks that work out just fine; ie. CDing is not an issue.

[LelaK]

If I read all the messages in this thread, does that mean I think it's an interesting discussion?

If I somehow found a girlfriend who really liked me and we got married or something like that and later she became a crossdresser, that would seem kind of horrible, since masculinity is so drab etc and since it would be like being married to a guy. But, hey, I'd get over that, if she were really my type mentally or spiritually. Now, if she then went and transitioned into a guy, that would be harder to take, but I probably wouldn't mind being roommates anyway.

Society is getting very weird. Young people these days like to dress as animals, vampires and everything imaginable. How would you like if your wife or SO turned out to want to be an animal and dress as one? So we don't need to feel so out of place any more. We'll fit in.

[MatildaJ.]

I'm with Allie here. I think people do the best they can to predict how they'll change and hope to change in ways that are compatible. But sometimes it doesn't work that way. Sometimes the changes make people incompatible. That doesn't mean the relationship was a waste of time, or that it was shallow. It just means that it ran its course, the way a friendship sometimes does, and now the two people have outgrown each other.

I like to think that a marriage can be good even if it ends in divorce rather than death. Certainly I had good relationships which ended without marriage; the fact that we broke up didn't mean that we should never have gotten together.

[Melissa in SE Tn]

Jennifer. I truly enjoy your posts. You are a truth crusader in addition to bringing logic to this zoo. Thank you for all that you do.

[PretzelGirl]

I want to echo again what Lori said. There is no such thing as an absolute. I think that is something that we need to always think of when in discussions here. Now I will agree that from my perspective, the CDing is probably not the reason a large majority of the time. It does get called out more because divorce is sometimes about drama and trying to have an upper hand for the agreement. Raising the CDing is great drama and some may think it gives them the upper hand.

[Danielle_cder]

I'm going to say no, if u get divorced over just cross dressing that bit*h is pretty shallow

[Cheryl123]

All very interesting thoughts and experiences. But I wonder if it's possible to make generalizations? No individual is the same as another, no marriage is the same as another. I'm sure there are women who find cross dressing totally repugnant so I can understand how that could be a sole cause. And I'm sure dressing is sometimes used as an excuse to cover up deeper issues. People are complicated and so I guess are many divorces. But very interesting discussion!

[MysticLady]

Normal Cinderella life is destroyed when CD is put on the table. It doesn't matter what you've gone through together. That factor alone will override all the hardships and triumphs together. It becomes "the issue". At least in my case it did.

[prene]

It did for me.
I told my last 3 gf's maybe to early.
Maybe I should have waited ... but I didn't.

[rachelcdtvcd]

i know this is going to sound insane, but if your SO is completely selfish it can. while cross dressing can be considered a selfish act in itself, you also have to think that every person has "kinks" or even at worse "flaws"..if you're willing to accept your SOs "flaws" but they can't accept your cross dressing, then really, aren't they being selfish in a way? i would never ask anyone to join in if they didn't WANT to...also, it's more for myself anyway as i don't need anyone else's involvement to enjoy myself. if a SO has a problem with something i'm doing that doesn't involve her and isn't hurting her, then oh well, she's free to leave at any time. i know that sound selfish too, but i've been doing this too long and i enjoy it too much to deny myself when there are women out there that don't mind it.

[Gillian Gigs]

"The straw that broke the camels back", sounds like it was just one straw...but I find it very difficult to believe that one issue alone could break up a marriage. I see the CDing thing as being a very big looking straw, which would be very easy to focus on. Every situation is different, so what is the baggage that each person brings into a marriage. We all have baggage and it is easy to only look at the other persons baggage and say that it is all their fault, but no problem is ever one sided. If one person would leave a relationship for only one reason, I would be prone to think that someone is very shallow, or very insecure in who they are. Comments were made about getting into a really dense pink fog, and that could be a problem, let's face it if a person thinks that the marriage is all about them...then a really big problem does exist. I tend to be a, "all things in moderation", person and it is the getting into extremes that tends to get most of us into trouble.

[sometimes_miss]

Yes, yes it can. My ex and I were in couples therapy before we got divorced, and towards the end, she admitted that she simply couldn't accept what I wanted to do, and what I was doing. She had initially said during our sessions with the therapist that it wasn't just the crossdressing, perhaps because it wasn't the politically correct thing to do. But in the end, crossdressing was the one thing that she couldn't accept in her man.
While we may like to think it's not really such a big deal, we really have to remember that being a crossdresser changes one of the major things about us that a woman is attracted to; a masculine man. Once the image of us is replaced from masculine to feminine, it can easily destroy any sexual attraction she has for us. And once that's gone, it leaves a big hole in her life, and how she feels not just about us, but about herself. And that's the straw that breaks the camel's back. There can be other things going on; but there are lots of couples that survive all kinds negative things between them; sadly, crossdressing isn't commonly one of them.

[Stephanie47]

Sure, cross dressing can be the sole cause of the end of a marriage. I think society finds it easier to accept a gay man for who he is than a cross dressing man. Society finds it easier to accept a transsexual than a cross dressing man. A transsexual? Why that's a medical issue! A woman trapped in a man's body! Gay! Her was hardwired that way. A man wearing a dress? Where the heck does that come in? Huh?

As said by others, it modifies if not destroys the image of the woman's man. She was attracted to the man, even if his being was influenced by his hidden or not yet discovered desire to wear feminine clothing. Even a long term marriage may be destroyed because the woman cannot accept this aspect of him.

There is also another element in the potential destruction. I see many times the woman fears society will look at HER and find her "strange." Why the heck does she stay with him? Damn, the guy likes to wear a dress, and a bra and he does not have tits, and, heels, and panties, and makeup, and, a wig. He walks like a duck, but, he isn't a duck!

It takes a very special woman to analyze her man and accept him, even if she does not want to participate. I'm married to one!

[Tina_gm]

I would say that under certain circumstances, yes, Cding alone could cause a relationship to end. Some women are into the hyper masculinity. That is just the way it is. As good intentions as a Cder may have, and be as thoughtful and respectful as they can, that alone may end the relationship, and would likely be a cause for a relationship to never get off the ground. Of course with one that already had, that would mean the a CDer did not tell early on. So, the not telling would be a reason too I guess, but it is not telling about the CDing, so it is still definitely the same coin.

Another reason would be if the Cding changes, either from non sexual to sexual, or if it begins to progress past the point of what the CD partner can handle emotionally. So the Cding alone would then be the cause. I think too that just as a Cder may change, so too can a partner of a CD even though the CDing they do hasn't changed. For whatever reason, a partner may no longer be accepting to it.

Overall, I do believe that if a CDer does keep their partner 1st and foremost is honest and honors any agreements, there is a good likelyhood that a strong relationship will survive it. Not an absolute though.

[dusktreader]

Relationships are always unique. You can never apply universal rules to them, because each one is different. It's really tempting to try to put them into neat little boxes and make general statements that always apply. That just can't work, though. Talking about relationships in generalized terms helps you fit something unique and very intricate into your internal model of what a relationship is. However, you just can't perfectly apply rules to all of them.

While I don't think it is likely that the discovery of cross-dressing will end a relationship on its own, I am absolutely certain there are situations where this is the case. The main point I am making here is that generalizations can really help to describe aspects of unique and very personal things to each other, they just can't apply universally.

[Sandra]

IMHO yes it could, but it could also be the straw that broke the camels back where other things in the relationship are going wrong.

I'll be honest when I see a thread on here saying that cding was the only cause I tend to take it with a pinch of salt, after all we only have one side of the story.

[GaleWarning]

My ex- recently told me that she becomes a different person whenever I am around.
Bitchy, grumpy, moody ...
It got me thinking about how long she might have been feeling this way ...
Long before she learned of my CDing.
Long, long before I left.
In my case, CDing was a minor issue compared with everything else.

[NicoleScott]

Can cross dressing alone really end a relationship?

I have long advocated that cross dressing can never be the sole reason for a breakup...
... cross dressing can absolutely be THE reason for a breakup.

So, is the length of a relationship not intimately intertwined with this decision?

Jennifer asks two questions. She answered the first herself: yes.

The answer to the second question may be "yes" but if a long-term relationship ends due to crossdressing, the fallout can be worse (kids, finances, etc.) than a short-term relationship ending.
Most CDers here advocate telling a future wife before marriage. But if Jennifer is right about "a decade or two says there is more reason to stay and adjust...", new members about to marry soon might get the idea that they should keep their CDing secret for the next twenty years before revealing. You know, for stability.

[Tiki]

I know someone personally whose marriage ended in a divorce only due to crossdressing.. .

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jenn, If that's all it takes then it probably wasn't all that great of a relationship to start with.

[ReineD]

We're all debating whether the "crossdressing" can be the sole reason to end a relationship or not. So it occurs to me that the question is rather, what aspect of the crossdressing are we all talking about exactly, over which a wife might leave a husband.

Is it just putting on the clothes occasionally in private? Underthings? All-out dressing?

Is the husband wanting to go full steam ahead shortly after his wife has just found out?

Are there tell-tale signs in guy mode, i.e, plucked eyebrows, shaved body, long fingernails, long hair, pierced ears, no facial hair, etc?

What about wanting to go out in public and possibly outing the CDer (and the family)? Are there a lot of "oopsies" ... "Ooops, I didn't know our child was going to come to our bedroom because of a nightmare tonight, and see me in my nightie". "I didn't think your family would see my pic on facebook", "Well, it's not my problem if Janie's friend's parents won't allow their child over anymore for sleepovers."

What about the preoccupation with it ... does the husband chomp at the bit waiting for his wife to go away, making her feel unwanted?

The money ... how does it affect the budget and the closet space at home?

What about the openness about it all ... is there hiding and either non-disclosure or lying?

What about the time involved online, either looking & shopping, here, on meet-up sites, looking at T-porn?

And sex ... is it all about the CDer being femme in the bedroom? Does he have fantasies about being with men and the wife senses that he isn't all there when they have sex? Does he avoid having sex with wife? Does he go ahead and have sex with men behind the wife's back (a few people have said they do this here).

What about moods ... is he resentful when they have to go somewhere in guy mode and does he show it? Is there depression? Anger? Is there drinking involved?

Is he telling his wife that he feels he might be a woman and he doesn't know if he will want to transition or not?

Etc.

I have a feeling that as usual, everyone has a different level in mind, when they think of the proverbial last straw.

[Lorileah]

what aspect[/B][/U] of the crossdressing are we all talking about exactly, over which a wife might leave a husband.

Is it just putting on the clothes occasionally in private? Underthings? All-out dressing? Probably the part where she comes home early and catches you...in bed with someone else :idontknow:

[MatildaJ.]

Yes Reine, exactly. I think very few marriages end just because the husband admits that he finds it sexy to wear panties or stockings from time to time. Conversely, even a strong marriage would end if the husband can't come out of the pink fog enough to maintain a real connection with his wife. No connection = no marriage. (Assuming that the wife will have an instant connection with the female persona -- that's a fantasy.)

[Nicole Erin]

A lot of CD and TS blame all their life problems on their gender variant status.
When I was still in my Cd stages, my ex said that was the reason she wanted out but we had a lot more problems than just that. I don't think CD'ing alone would cause it.
Keep in mind also that while the image some CD/TS get is - "She found out yesterday and filed for divorce today" is seldom the case. Usually it is months or years of turmoil before the relationship is ruined.

[suchacutie]

Wow...so many topics:

1) Someone discovering they are CD (regardless of initial gender) is certainly not necessarily the end of a relationship, and certainly not mine. I was 55 and married 34 years when we discovered Tina. We were both shocked, and fascinated, and curious as heck. We both knew I was the same person 10 min before and 10 min after discovering Tina, so the question was only, "who is Tina?".

2) Realizing one is CD does not necessarily mean we are not manly men for a large part of the time. In my own case, when my wife wants her man, you can be sure she gets him. But there are times that she specifically invites Tina for a visit as well!

3) So this brings me back (as with Reine's post) what aspects are we talking about that are a problem, especially in established relationships? The "hiding" aspect has to be a big issue. When one spouse is not given all the details that they think they deserve in order to make a relationship decision, they are going to be upset. There will be some SOs who will find it all fascinating, and some might even see that they have "leverage" over their CDing hubbies because of it, but there will be some who, for whatever reason (and there certainly are many possibilities) will be at least intially turned off and outraged.

4) And lets not forget those relationships that are strengthened by having (suddenly or not) a CDing hubby. Those success stories get swept under the rug, and they are all less sensational, but they do happen. A part of that is education, where a surprised spouse begins to realize that there are real advantages to a CDing hubby. Without a doubt, those of us who are the recipients of that acceptance are incredibly dedicated to our spouses!

I love these topics with no definitive answers :)

[dawnmarrie1961]

Sharing is caring. So I would suppose that the partner that is excluded from the activity feels that they are being denied entrance to that part of their lovers life. Kinda like having sex with the light turned off all the time. When the light finally comes on we are afraid they won't like what they see.

[Judith96a]

Kristy,
Leaving and telling everyone including work sounds rather vindictive to me. If that's what she's like then exactly why are you still with her? (Rhetorical question, I'm not looking for an answer!)

[Lucy_Bella]

If anything the cding was used as an excuse to end the marriage although it wasn't the true reason... My ex had used it time after time as an excuse as to why our marriage failed .She wasn't faithful in our relationship, several times in fact, but the excuse was because of what I did( give me a break).. Yeah ..It's an excuse because she knew of my cding before we married 25 years ago and said it wasn't an issue she was fine with it until the end..

Now she can not stay in a stable relationship she seems to attract losers who do not work ,drunks and druggies..

[Confucius]

Can it be solely responsible for ending the relationship = YES
Will it probably be responsible for ending the relationship = NO

According to some of the best surveys of wives of cross-dressers about 20% of wives find cross-dressing to be completely repulsive, disgusting, and such a turn-off that they can never look at their man as a normal, healthy, sexual partner - ever.

Fortunately most wives are more tolerant. Most wives need a man to hold and love them. They need a man who will protect them and make them feel secure. They need a man they can respect and honor. If you are that man, and you love, protect and respect your wife, then you're odds are pretty good.

http://www.tgforum.com/wordpress/index.php/research-on-the-wives-of-crossdressers-questionnaire-ii-report-3/

[AlexisRaeMoon]

This is one of the best articles I've ever read. Thanks for sharing! It's good to see someone doing some actual research is this area, rather than all the personal conjecture that seems to have popped up on this thread


Can it be solely responsible for ending the relationship = YES
Will it probably be responsible for ending the relationship = NO

According to some of the best surveys of wives of cross-dressers about 20% of wives find cross-dressing to be completely repulsive, disgusting, and such a turn-off that they can never look at their man as a normal, healthy, sexual partner - ever.

Fortunately most wives are more tolerant. Most wives need a man to hold and love them. They need a man who will protect them and make them feel secure. They need a man they can respect and honor. If you are that man, and you love, protect and respect your wife, then you're odds are pretty good.

http://www.tgforum.com/wordpress/index.php/research-on-the-wives-of-crossdressers-questionnaire-ii-report-3/

[Lucy_Bella]

Sad part of it is and great article BTW, I never dressed as I do today and didn't dress while she was around while we were together..I can go with the 20 percent as a few GG's mentioned on this post, that some get way to involved ( pink fog) ..But I never did it was always about the family,providing ,and being the best father I could and my children respect me for that now that they are grown.. I can not say that so much about their mother..She was more like a friend to them than a responsible parent and as they got older they started wondering about why they and mom stayed at a motel with a strange man when they were in their pre teens..

I think after all the affairs ,cheating and running around behind my back while I was working 80 hours a week to provide her a nice lifestyle drove the urges even higher for me to dress.. I was depressed, heart broken and married to a complete stranger after 10 years.. Those were the darkest times of my life and dressing eased the healing process and gave me the strength I needed to move on..I felt I was the one who abandoned my family and she sure made me feel quilt because of my earlier dressing before we was married ..I never lived it down while with her and now that I am away and my mind is clear,,I know for a fact it wasn't me or the dressing ..It was her needing an excuse she tried to come back a few times after I moved out and by that time I allowed the dressing to happen ..I no longer supressed the urges .. I told her that dressing is now a part of my life that will not go away I don't expect her to accept it and I will never dress in front of or around you but I will be doing it.. She went home and hooked up with her next door neighbor told our son that her and I will never get back together because of my dressing..

[mikiSJ]

... remodeling.

In a previous life I was a homebuilder. I can state that more marriages are destroyed during a major remodel or new home being constructed than due to the discovery of a spouse's crossdressing.

[Wildaboutheels]

MANY folks have reported in this very Forum that it did. Could at least SOME of them have been lying?

Undoubtedly.

How likely is it that ALL of them lied?

The math is pretty simple unless one has a completely CLOSED MIND. And/or refuses to remove the blinders.

Can drinking alone end a Relationship?

Can drug use/abuse alone end a Relationship?

Can just ONE affair end a Relationship?

[PaulaQ]

Ah yes. This thread.

I know that it is difficult for many here to believe, particularly the supportive GG's here, who are, I think, as a rule, very special women, each and every one of them.

There are a number of reasons I woman might not accept ANY amount of CDing from her spouse:
1. Some women have religious convictions that preclude them EVER accepting a CDing spouse. I'm not sure why there's any debate about this - I've talked to plenty of folks on this forum who've had wives that fell into that camp. It's not super common, but it happens. In that case, I guess we'd have to conclude that CDing alone ended the marriage.

2. Some women have just no flexibility in their views of gender / gender social roles / and sexuality. For most people in the hetero world, these things are NOT independent variables - they just kind of view them as one big lump for their own personal lives, with the exception "oh yeah, gay people have different rules." Some women doubtless can't handle a gender variant spouse without it assaulting her own sense of sexuality. Some women have very rigid views about what men and women are supposed to be and the roles they are to fulfill in a marriage. CDing could easily be more than they could handle, particularly if we're talking someone who fully dresses, forms, hose, wig, shoes, makeup - the whole enchilada.

I have no doubt that my wife seeing me presenting female for the first time vastly accelerated the demise of our relationship. It was just too much change, all at once, for her to handle. It shook her world-view. She depended on me a lot for emotional stability for herself, a guidepost if nothing else, and I turned everything upside down the day I walked out of my study in a dress. (She asked to see me.) She simply never recovered from this. Still hasn't.

One of my least favorite activities on this forum is the game of "oh, you broke up? Your marriage must've totally sucked!" Who the **** are you to judge? You don't know the person in question! You don't know the spouse - you don't know one damned thing except your own experiences and your opinion. And you may not be wrong most of the time - but jesus, have a heart! This is the last thing someone who's going through a divorce needs to hear. Believe me - if it sucked, they'll tell you. A lot. A lot more than you want them too...

[Tina_gm]

MANY folks have reported in this very Forum that it did. Could at least SOME of them have been lying?

Undoubtedly.

How likely is it that ALL of them lied?

The math is pretty simple unless one has a completely CLOSED MIND. And/or refuses to remove the blinders.

Can drinking alone end a Relationship?

Can drug use/abuse alone end a Relationship?

Can just ONE affair end a Relationship?To the last, definitely. Of the others you mention, it would depend on the causes of them and the effect of them. Why does someone drink and to what amount? or drugs, which is mostly the same thing. How does this person who drinks act differently when they drink? And lastly, if an S?O was lied to, or if the drinking was completely concealed, that too makes a big difference.

[StephanieH]

Really short answer: yep.

[Tina_gm]

I have no doubt that my wife seeing me presenting female for the first time vastly accelerated the demise of our relationship. It was just too much change, all at once, for her to handle. It shook her world-view. She depended on me a lot for emotional stability for herself, a guidepost if nothing else, and I turned everything upside down the day I walked out of my study in a dress. (She asked to see me.) She simply never recovered from this. Still hasn't.

Paula, in your case you pretty much say it, too much change too soon. That was a very big key here. Also, you are now transitioning, so she is not adjusting to a change of her husband, but losing him altogether. Women have the intuition gene, and I believe you have stated she knew right away where things were headed for you. She did try, she had hope that she could somehow weather this, but it was too much for her. It would be for many of the accepting GG's here of their partners who are CD's. They still have their husband or BF. You no longer are able to provide that role for her. Understand that this is in no way meant to be negative toward you. I would also agree that in some cases, any gender variance could be a cause of a break up. Most often though, how it is presented, handled, the pace of change and the amount of variance does play a big role in whether a relationship continues.

[Ally 2112]

I truly think it can .Of course there may other issues but no marrige is perfect .Even after 6 years of being divorced my x (who i am now somewhat friendly with) says it was the crossdressing that ended it for her .Maybe im a rare case but it is what it is

[PaulaQ]

Paula, in your case you pretty much say it, too much change too soon.

Total of my changes prior to separation:
- I waxed off my body hair - this bothered her no end
- I painted my toenails (my socks and shoes hid them most of the time)
- I'd CD a fair amount - but not in front of her until she asked to see it
- I went to a support group meeting once a week.
This doesn't seem like a whole bunch of change.

My changes since separation:
- I started electrolysis
- I started HRT
- I have my own tiny breasts now. Yay.
- I go to a couple of different therapists, and a couple of different support groups
- I'm actively talking to doctors about FFS, and SRS. I want both in 2014.
- I live as a woman 24/7
- I'm interested in men now, mostly thanks to HRT.
This seems like a lot more changes to me - but you be the judge.

[Tina_gm]

Paula, you are only looking at it from an absolute physical aspect. And even that, after two decades of no knowledge of the feminine side of you is drastic for her. It is however the emotional aspect and what lies behind why you made the changes you made when you were still with her that she was not able to comprehend or deal with.

Women, GG's... almost all are born with a sense of intuition that "us girls" are not born with. Even though we have aspects of us that are more feminine, and not just the physical desires to look like one, we do not have the extra intuition that they are born with. In you wife's case, she had the intuition that for you it was more than just cross dressing and an increased feminine presence within you. So, those changes that at the time you perceived as minor were major to her. Both physically and because of what they meant and where it would end up.

For a lot of us who are thinking, hey, I am only doing a little bit here and there, nothing drastic, nothing permanent, please be mindful of the emotional impact that comes with it.

[laura.lapinski]

Of course it can be THE reason for a breakup. I've had women who had trouble seeing much lesser of an issue cause a break up than CDing. It's a huge thing for a woman to discover her love is a CDer. It erodes her faith in you as an honest partner. However, if she really loves you, she would be willing to try and get an understanding of it, but I would understand if she just couldn't deal with it. It is a BIG thing. Don't underestimate it.

[Tina_gm]

I really believe that not telling about the cding cannot be emphasized enough when it comes to the difficulty that many CDers have with their relationships after it is told or discovered. Cding itself is such a complex issue. It is so because of the fact that our wives and GF's, especially if they are 100% hetero (and most are) are going to have a hard time with it based on their own sexuality. At least for some of the time we are asking them to bend that hetero to some extent. Then of course there is the society aspect in that it is among the biggest of taboos. The biggest of all though is the trust that is broken because they were not told early on. There is so much going on here in terms of Cding. As much of a roller coaster as it is or has been for us, it is for them as well. Then add in the broken trust issue...

[laura.lapinski]

AllieSF. Thanks for taking the time to articulate your point. I agree 100% with what you wrote.

Lucy,

Maybe she started cheating on you in the beginning because she felt your occasional, but cloaked CDing was, in her mind, like you had an affair? If this is true, this points more to CDing as being the reason for the divorce. Al the other behavior on her side was some sort of coping mechanism that just further undermined your marriage. Sorry to hear that she used your dressing against you in a very mean way after the divorce. This is why we don't reveal our true selves to just anyone. We know that they could or might use it against us. I hope you are living a happy life now and find that special person to share all of you with.

[MonctonGirl]

I have long advocated that cross dressing can never be the sole reason for a breakup.


Never say never.

Snoring too loud
One spouse insisting on a waterbed, the other refusing to sleep on one
Drinking too much
Forgetting every anniversary

... any of these things have been presented as "sole" causes for requesting divorce
and the relationship length did not seem to matter.

[Valerie1973]

I'd say yes and no. Yes because women use the cross dressing as a weapon. It's always on the back of the minds and it leads to resentment. If she hates it and makes you feel bad for doing it then guilt and shame sets in. You become withdrawn from the relationship and she feels unwanted and undesirable. She then becomes snippy and cold and you become more distant and the marriage becomes hopeless. No, because what should the cross dressing have to do with wrecking a marriage. But it some how does. It all depends on the woman really and what kind of guy you are. I know of Neanderthal guys and their SO's think they're everything a man is supposed to be. I think its the hiding and lying they hate more than to fathom seeing their man in a dress. Who knows I haven't figured out my SO yet. One day she's cool and know it's disgusting. Some wives have accepted and some guys took a mile when only given an inch. If life evolves around CDing then like drugs or alcohol or gambling or whatever for sure being too obsessed with anything can destroy a marriage.

[Tina_gm]

Good point Valerie about the gambling.... Is it the gambling itself or the money that was lost because of it? The money would not have been lost or wasted if it was not for the gambling. How many wives who are vehemently against gambling in any form are going to file for divorce because their husbands went out and bought a one dollar scratch off? They may really dislike that he even did that, but its impact is so minor that ending the relationship is extreme to the point where the guy never should have married someone like that in the 1st place....

But then.... what if, because of the woman's vehement stance on gambling, that the husband covers up the occasional one dollar scratch off purchase?? Now, what ends up as a train wreck is not the actual scratch off but the cover up because of it... The woman would have rather dealt with a minor gambling issue which has very little direct impact than lying about it. So long as.... the gambling didn't progress to becoming a full time poker player or spending every free minute he has at a casino....

So indirectly the Cding can lead to a break up. Its the lying about the Cding, or how it progressed into something more than occasional dress up and it then begins to directly effect the life of the wife, in ways she cannot handle, even though in every other aspect of the marriage the Cder does what any good spouse does.

[Alice Torn]

YES,it CAN! If a gg has strong religious beliefs which do not tolerate, or accept men dressing in women's attire, and you don't repent, and totally stop cding, they will likely leave you. I have run into "brick walls" in trying to date some, and have been rejected because of it.

[krissy]

My first wife couldn't stand it at all.five year marriage down the drain.second marriage im still married 36 years still this wife cant stand it i cant bring it up or she will leave .so im alone with this all my life i found this site it helps me so much .the people here are so helpful if i didnt have this site i would have left this world along time ago.Its a tuff thing to deal with. im 56 and all i want is acceptance and love .

[Tina_gm]

Alice, there are definitely many women who are attracted to the hyper masculine men. Some of it is merely preference. We should understand that this is going to happen frequently, and all the better reason why you are doing the right thing by letting them know up front about yourself. Better to find the right one than to go through a train wreck later on and have such heartbreak anger and sadness because of it.

[ReineD]

Gendermutt, re your comment above about the hyper masculine men. Let's put this in perspective.

How many ultra macho guys were there in your high school or college? The jocks on sports teams maybe? This leaves the vast majority of guys who would have been just regular guys, not ultra macho: the nerds, the quiet guys, the guys who minded their own business, the guys who weren't popular. So now imagine that most of them have found partners and they are in relationships today. This means that the vast majority of women DO NOT go for the ultra macho guys.

Sorry for being picky, but I can't tell you how often I read here the idea that women prefer ultra macho guys. This just isn't true. Most of us go for the regular guys, since this is what most of them are! :)

[MatildaJ.]

Most of us go for the regular guys, since this is what most of them are! :)

But I think it's true that we tend to expect them to stick to the standard male practices and get annoyed when they don't.

Long before I knew anything about CDing except what's in pop culture, I found one boyfriend's voice irritating because it was high pitched, and I found my husband's preference for sitting when urinating to be weird. Obviously I married him anyway, but I did think it was odd that he wouldn't stand up to pee "like men do."

[Maryesther M.]

My wife of 45 years does the purging for me! Alas on two occasions she has returned early from trips away and discovered 'femme' items not stashed away. There follows a 'stop this or I'll throw you out' lecture, so I have to be doubly careful and not at all forgetful when I choose to dress.

M.

[JamieQ]

Yes Cding (or transexualism), it can be a sole reason to end a marraige especially if the SO is devout religious. Some women just can not take it. Probably more common it most likely can be the straw that breaks the camels back... I am going through the first two reasons now...I know I am trans, not CD though...

[Lucy_Bella]

Lucy,

Maybe she started cheating on you in the beginning because she felt your occasional, but cloaked CDing was, in her mind, like you had an affair? If this is true, this points more to CDing as being the reason for the divorce. Al the other behavior on her side was some sort of coping mechanism that just further undermined your marriage. Sorry to hear that she used your dressing against you in a very mean way after the divorce. This is why we don't reveal our true selves to just anyone. We know that they could or might use it against us. I hope you are living a happy life now and find that special person to share all of you with.

I thought that too....In fact I forgave her and we tried to continue our marriage ( in which we did for another 7 years) but I think the damage was done already ,our marriage had a scar that never really healed ..Never any reason for cheating ,cding an issue ? Leave don't run around behind someones back ..

[PaulaQ]

Most of us go for the regular guys, since this is what most of them are! :)

Can you define what a "regular guy" is Reine? Without telling what he isn't? I'm not sure I can. I'm also not sure he exists. What's a regular woman?

Also, in the description you did give, you mentioned "nerds, quiet guys, and unpopular guys." What about the funny guys? The outgoing guys? The thin guys? The fat guys? The loudmouth guys? The shy guys? The liberal guy? The conservative guy? The religious guy? The new age guy? The musician guy? The neatnik? The slob? The house proud home decorator? (Hey, don't laugh, I have a brother-in-law who is a "regular guy" who is like this.) Joe six-pack? The football fanatic? The sports nut? The wine-snob? The poet? The biker guy? The motor-cycle guy?

What about personality type? For example, you described Type-B personalities. Are Type-A guys just not "regular guys?" I mean, you can have a forceful personality and not be a jock, right?

BTW, when did nerds get to be "regular guys?"

Does "regular guy" describe anyone?

Oh, my interest isn't academic! I hope one day to date a "regular guy"! ;) (I also hope to own an unicorn ranch - we'll see if that happens either! :p)

[Annaliese2010]

I think your more spiritually advanced then you give yourself credit for. Would that you were My b#tch. Would take care of you. Straighten me out. Yep

[MissTee]

I believe it could, although it depends a lot on the two people trying to deal with it. If one is terribly close minded and dead set against it (even if DADT) then, yes.

[ReineD]

But I think it's true that we tend to expect them to stick to the standard male practices and get annoyed when they don't.

This is very true. Most of us, if we are hetero, do want our chosen male partners to be male. :p

But Gendermutt referred to an ultra masculine male. I imagined the stereotypical, insensitive and brutish sort of guy. Most of the guys that I know aren't like that. They actually change their kids diapers, help do the laundry, cook some meals, get mushy when they see some movies, hold their wife's purse when she needs them to, etc. :)

[PaulaQ]

But Gendermutt referred to an ultra masculine male. I imagined the stereotypical, insensitive and brutish sort of guy.

What about a cowboy of the sort John Wayne portrayed? Usually pretty intelligent, but extremely masculine? (I ask about this one because John Wayne is my wife's ideal of a masculine man.)

[Tina_gm]

Gendermutt, re your comment above about the hyper masculine men. Let's put this in perspective.

How many ultra macho guys were there in your high school or college? The jocks on sports teams maybe? This leaves the vast majority of guys who would have been just regular guys, not ultra macho: the nerds, the quiet guys, the guys who minded their own business, the guys who weren't popular. So now imagine that most of them have found partners and they are in relationships today. This means that the vast majority of women DO NOT go for the ultra macho guys.

Sorry for being picky, but I can't tell you how often I read here the idea that women prefer ultra macho guys. This just isn't true. Most of us go for the regular guys, since this is what most of them are! :)
Reine- I might be guilty of some generalization here...The wording might be a bit strong "hyper" and many was general, doesn't really even mean most. What I was implying was that Cders are not going to be a choice for a substantial amount of women. I am trying to think of wording that just means a good number, but not necessarily most.

You, and the other GG's who are on this board and continue with your relationships with your CD S/O's are open minded women at the least. Having struggles with the CDing does not mean a woman is not open minded, but open minded enough that they are choosing to continue or start a relationship with a CDer. There are still a good portion of women who might not despise the CDers but for themselves will be of the mindset of thanks but no thanks. The gender crossing is just not for them, they prefer their men to be only on the male side of the gender fence. Masculinity both physical and emotional is what they prefer, although it doesn't necessarily need to be just the ultra or hyper masculinity.

Paul Teutal Sr. (Orange county choppers) comes to mind as a standard bearer of the hyper masculine type guy. Unless someone like him has a truly horrible personality, women would choose someone like him over a feminine guy who also had a good personality, likely a good majority of the time. It is just the nature of a majority of men and women. my post was merely to remind and give support to Alice that She is doing the right thing by putting herself out there for who she is and finding someone who will be open minded.

[MatildaJ.]

Paul Teutal Sr. (Orange county choppers) comes to mind as a standard bearer of the hyper masculine type guy. Unless someone like him has a truly horrible personality, women would choose someone like him over a feminine guy who also had a good personality, likely a good majority of the time.

You're still thinking about this in a weird way. Women don't want Paul Teutal Sr. Women come in a range of types, and they like a range of types. It's true that most women want their men to follow mostly male cues in our society, but I think most of us violate the gender binary from time to time without causing a scene. A little looseness around gender roles is probably fine for most women; but at some point it goes over a line and makes the woman lose her attraction to the guy.

In other words, it's fine for the guy to carry his wife's purse while they're shopping; but if he says he'd like one of his own, that's going to ruffle more feathers.

[NicoleScott]

I'm with you, JessM, regarding Paul Sr, the OCC patriarch. If that's the standard bearer for hyper masculine guys, women (and men!) beware of the baggage that comes with it: he's always right, a control freak, short temper, full of himself...etc..etc. I guess some people like that, I hope just not very many.

[ReineD]

You're still thinking about this in a weird way. Women don't want Paul Teutal Sr. Women come in a range of types, and they like a range of types. It's true that most women want their men to follow mostly male cues in our society, but I think most of us violate the gender binary from time to time without causing a scene. A little looseness around gender roles is probably fine for most women; but at some point it goes over a line and makes the woman lose her attraction to the guy.


And this, everyone, is it in a nutshell! Jess you couldn't have described it any better than this. :)

[PaulaQ]

but at some point it goes over a line and makes the woman lose her attraction to the guy.

So between ReineD & JessM (whom I both very strongly agree with on this matter, fwiw), we have concluded that too much gender variance can make a woman lose attraction to her spouse.

Do relationships NEVER end because one of the partners doesn't find the other attractive anymore, and that's the sole reason? Is that really then the assertion of this thread? In specific, I guess we're asserting that women wouldn't do this. I know for a solid verifiable fact that some men do this all the time - just ask any of the divorced women my age in Dallas who've been thrown over for a 20-30 year younger trophy wife! So it seems likely to me that the same could certainly end a marriage for a woman. Hey, attraction matters - and if that's gone, you've kicked a fundamental pillar out from under the marriage, right?

[FemmeElastique]

I think it would for me. I'm a CD, and that's enough. When I find out that a man CDs, even if it's just wearing women's underwear or something like that, I am completely turned off to him sexually after that. I like a masculine/feminine balance when in a relationship. I like to be the feminine part of the relationship and I like my man to be completely masculine (not wearing women's clothes at all).

[Janet Doe]

I came out to a girlfriend once, that was enough pain and humiliation once she dumped me, and proceeded to tell everyone else around me.
After 24 years of marriage my SO does not know of my hidden kinks.
Even if I came out and was able to wear some of the " FUN " costumes she has in the bedroom, I would still not tell her about my past.

[MatildaJ.]

And this, everyone, is it in a nutshell! Jess you couldn't have described it any better than this. :)

Thank you for the kind words!


So between ReineD & JessM (whom I both very strongly agree with on this matter, fwiw), we have concluded that too much gender variance can make a woman lose attraction to her spouse.

Just want to underline that it often happens like that, but not always. For myself, I've found that I'm not attracted to my husband en femme, but once he's back in male mode, I'm attracted to him again. For some people, like FemmeElastique, just knowing that a guy wears panties is enough to end the attraction permanently, but for many of us, we can hold that knowledge in a separate part of our brain (like having an extra dessert stomach, lol), and still maintain the attraction when the women's clothes come off.

[Tina_gm]

well, I am still going to stand by what I am not so successfully attempting to say... is that if the choice was hyper masculine or feminine, as in the only choice hypothetically, then a majority of women will choose a over b if both had decent personalities. It is for the many of us who have wives and gf's here our personalities that get us through and we continue on with our relationships. Granted, there are some women who do prefer effeminate men, but they are in the minority.

I would even say that there is a greater number of women who bounce around from one d bag masculine guy to another, getting cheated on and treated poorly but then immediately take a pass on a fem guy or one who dresses and acts so occasionally, regardless of his personality. There are more women like that then there are who will opt for a Cder who has a great personality.

My wife grew up in a good but very patriarchal setting. Very christian based. And her choice of men up to me has been predominantly the more masculine type. Burned pretty much every time by them. Even then, she still struggles with the fact I CD. Even though she does not see it, it really does not effect her to any extent, and what changes she has seen in me are not major, just being more free with the femininity I do have. I am still pretty much the same guy she married. It is still a major struggle for her at times. She has told me she is not certain she would have had a relationship with me if she knew beforehand. At the time she had almost no knowledge of what real CD's are or can be anyway. I am also fairly certain that if it wasn't for how good our relationship is in all other areas, the CDing would have likely ended the relationship. She thought seriously about leaving me after I told her. I didn't even have a secret life, wardrobe, was a member here or at any other CD sites. I only told her I always had the desire and felt it was time for me to explore those desires. Just a handful of times where I would briefly wear some of her clothes. My wife is among the more open minded women overall too. Especially seeing as how she grew up.

[Tina_gm]

I'm with you, JessM, regarding Paul Sr, the OCC patriarch. If that's the standard bearer for hyper masculine guys, women (and men!) beware of the baggage that comes with it: he's always right, a control freak, short temper, full of himself...etc..etc. I guess some people like that, I hope just not very many.Just about any owner of a business will have a similar mindset, and I can more or less say for certain than any owner of a mechanical shop, especially performance based, they may not look like Paul Sr, but they will act quite a lot like that. At least when it comes to the business. Outside of that they may be totally different, as I would not be surprised if Paul Sr may not be quite what is portrayed on the show.

[MatildaJ.]

She has told me she is not certain she would have had a relationship with me if she knew beforehand.

I would have walked away if my husband in his twenties had been as much into crossdressing as he is now. It takes up quite a bit of our budget and our shared time, and I wouldn't have tolerated that back in our twenties. Why would I choose to have children with someone who would then spend so much of his time hiding himself from his children? Why would I choose to spend my life with someone whose favorite way to dress makes him unattractive to me?

But I'm glad for the twenty years I got to spend with a great guy (while he kept his crossdressing so minimal that I didn't know about it). And I'm grateful for the time I still have with him-as-a-guy, even though it's less than I expected to have, because of the secret lifestyle. But I accept that people change over time and that the situation could be much worse.

[NicoleScott]

I would not be surprised if Paul Sr may not be quite what is portrayed on the show.

I suspect you're right. The more reality shows that are thrown on the screen, the less real they seem to be. Those Housewives of [insert location here] that scratch each others' eyes out on TV are probably arm in arm while skipping to the bank.