Gender studies 101

[May(be)]

Hey gang, long time no see.

I have a question, and it might be incredibly naive. I'm wondering, considering that sex and gender are now considered separate things, why do we still use the same words to describe both?

If sex equals male/female (or intersex), why does gender also have to equal male/ female? Wouldn't it be more useful to start anew and propose new words for these extremes on the gender spectrum?



tl;dr- why don't we use language to describe gender that is independent from the language we use to describe sex?

[Beverley Sims]

Everybody is doing 101.
How about some second year subjects. :)

[May(be)]

Haha, yeah... It is a cliche' title. Probably could have been more creative. I put 101 becuase it seems like such a basic question, but unless I'm missing something really obvious, I think it's a good one.

[kimdl93]

Only really doctrinaire individuals insist on using the term sex and gender differently. Sex and gender are understood in common usage to mean one's biologically apparent apparatus.

However, gender and sexuality are two different things. Gender in this case referring to one's physical and emotional identification as male/female or somewhere in-between. Gender is apart from sexuality, which could be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual....with some allowance for variance as well.

[Lilith]

What I've heard before is that sex, a person's biology, is man/woman. And gender, how a person mentally/emotionally/spiritually identifies or publicly projects, is male/female. Did I understand your question properly?

[May(be)]

Not really. My question is if we make a distinction between sex and gender these days, why do we cling to antiquated terms? Sex and gender are different, so why do we use the same words to describe distinctly different spectra? Wouldn't it be liberating to use different terms, so people don't think that sex and gender go hand-in-hand? I think the failure of language to keep up with changing philosophy of identity is a detriment to gender liberation. Am I wrong?

What if the gender spectrum didn't use "man/woman", but instead used, say, the color spectrum? On one end is red and at the other is violet? I think that using man/woman for gender, and using male/female for sex (or vice versa) keeps the conversation limited to only address what could be considered traditional gender roles. Shouldn't gender have its own terminology so the fallacious association no longer perpetuates?

I think divorcing gender of traditional terms used to describe sex would solve that problem, and liberate people to explore gender without having to acknowledge at all a relationship to their biological sex. I think keeping terms used to describe gender, which are derivative of biological sex indicators, keeps up the idea of the false dichotomy.

[kimdl93]

I understand what you're saying, May. Unfortunately, we can't really accomplish this separation. Words in English seldom are precisely and narrowly defined, outside of very careful use in scientific journals. At best, one needs to offer their intended meaning for the term "gender", and ask that the reader apply that definition in the specific context. Once you get outside those closely controlled confines, definitions become a free for all.

[May(be)]

Would it be a bad thing if gender became "free for all"? That aside, I think there is a need for new definitions or terminology of gender, if only because the old system only perpetuates misunderstanding and mental prejudice. To your point though, Kim, that kind of shift in thinking would be hard to come by. I think there has to be an enlightened popular movement to make this freedom a reality.

[NicoleScott]

There's sex (male/female determined by our chromosomes and equipment between the legs and internally), sexuality (who I'm attracted to), and gender. I get your point. The school sends home forms to be filled out. Half ask for my child's sex, the other half ask for gender. They see sex and gender as the same, and for a lot of people, it is. How about sex terms male or female, and gender terms masculine and feminine. But how about all those somewhere between masculine and feminine, an issue that's rather rare in describing sex, when it's either male or female (with rare exceptions)?

[May(be)]

"masuline/ feminine" is the same problem, and I think it perpetuates the same prejudices. In my opinion, gender terminology should completely indemnify itself from sexual terminology, so much so that one would never mistake the two as the same thing (or even corollary) ever again.

[NicoleScott]

It sounds like you see sex and gender as totally unrelated things. Yes, they are different but not totally separate.
This reminds me of particle physicists naming quarks: up/down or strange/charmed even though they are neither up nor charmed but just different names for quarks possessing different properties. So you want two distinct names, how about chocolate and vanilla, recognizing that some people like their flavors mixed in an infinite number of proportions? We can't have a name for every point along a scale (because they are points, not landing pads).
If gender became a "fee for all" (which it actually is, but not in words) it would cease to have any meaning. But it does have meaning, how we present or identity as opposed to what our sex is. Who we are as opposed to what we are.

[binx]

May, I get where you're coming from, but I agree with Kim that sex and gender are seen as the same thing for most people. Creating new words to further categorize the topic of gender just wouldn't work IMO. At least not for now. The subject is still so fresh in today's world and even totally unknown to some people. I think that creating a new title would only cause some people to further alienate the idea. (Yeah, it would open the eyes of a few, but create a whole group of outsiders to many, many others) I think more people learning about the whole concept would be able to understand and accept more easily if it's explained in common terms. As in, Mark is biologically a male, but his gender, or how he feels or presents, is a mixture of or absense of male/female. I think that a statement like that would be better understood (not saying 100% readily accepted) than saying Mark is biologically male but his gender is mauve. (Color reference = new gender terminology)

I also think it would be beyond difficult to define ALL genders. Couple that with the fact that two people who identify with the same gender might have completely separate definitions of that gender. To make new words to define gender, you would have to actually DEFINE gender in a way that everyone agreed on. As far as a spectrum system goes, that would be subject to interpretation. "Magenta" means blahbityblah to me, but "magenta" means hoopityhoop to someone else. It makes it a moot point.

*brain explodes* Sorry for the length and all-over-the-place-ness.

[LilSissyStevie]

Gender does have it's own spectrum. The masculine/feminine spectrum. The problem is that it is impossible to separate gender from it's historical/cultural contexts which are intimately bound to biology. It is the job (culturally speaking) of men to be masculine and the job of women to be feminine. In fact, it is these roles that men and women are supposed to fill that define what is masculine or feminine. It is not necessarily a woman's nature to "feminine," it's just her social role. This is easy to see when you look at different cultures, time periods and classes. We live in a time when the gender paradigm is becoming unglued. Once upon a time the division of labor between the sexes was strictly defined but that's no longer true. Gender outside of the purely physical functions is becoming obsolete. Once you divorce gender from physical sex, there is nothing left but the muddled symbolic residue of the past - enter the cross-dresser.:D

[kimdl93]

I'm a realist...despite the fact that I prefer to present as a woman ;) I meant the term free for all to mean that in public discourse words like sex, gender, sexuality, or whatever all tend to mean whatever each person wants them to mean. And the misunderstanding and prejudice drive the user's intended meaning. Some people who will be more careful and considerate in their choice of words, others will not - and for the most part, real communication will be stifled.

I'm reminded of George Bernard Shaw's observation about two people divided by a common language. In the case of gender, we are a multitude of people divided by commonly used (if carelessly used) words and individual prejudices.

[NicoleScott]

"Hey there's John."
"Yeah, he's a nice guy, don't you think?"
"Yes, he's somewhat Magenta, don't you think?"
"I'm not familiar with that. What do you mean?"
"His gender. He's magenta. Probably about 40% magenta. The rest chartreuse."
"I don't understand. Please explain."
"He's kind of...................feminine."
"Oh yes, feminine."

Back to square one.

[binx]

NicoleScott, exactly! And in so many fewer words than what I said lol

[mikiSJ]

May

You are not doing well in class today. :battingeyelashes:

[May(be)]

MikiSJ, I disagree, so far the arguments that I've heard are that people lack the imagination to understand that a different system is possible. Yes, change is hard, but I don't see how any of us benefit from the current system/ gender language tied to sexual identifiers. I'd go so far as to say that using sexual terms to describe gender is- by definition- sexist.

[Lilith]

Ah I understand now, May. That's a good question. I'm honestly surprised that there aren't spectrum words. Think about sexuality. Now there aren't just homosexual, heterosexual, and bisexual. There are asexual, pansexual, etcetera. I feel as though it is only a matter of time. Society seems to be becoming more open and aware to the spectrum of identities versus human binaries. These terms usually begin within the communities who identify with them. So hey, why not start it here?

[NicoleScott]

May, suppose you pick new words for the ends of the gender spectrum - new words that have no other meanings - how would you define these words without using terms like masculine/feminine or referencing attributes or mannerisms commonly associated with men/women? Then, after that, what do you call all the in-between genders? Those of us who lack imagination want to know.

[May(be)]

I hope you don't think that I'm making a slight toward you, NicoleScott. Please don't think that by identifying with either of these two indicators, that you lack imagination.

I don't think it's my place to say what the answer is, only to point out that the current system may be counter to a lot of our goals. That being said, however, since you asked- and this isn't the answer- how about "gentle/ stout", or "tough/ tender"? I don't have all the answers, but I do have a question.

Again, I don't claim these are the right answers, but what I do claim is that a culture that is thriving- not receding- is constantly inventing new language to describe the new reality that it is creating. Hip hop did that, Rock and roll did that 60 years ago. Am I wrong that there is a need for new language to describe our thriving community, as well?

[binx]

how about "gentle/ stout", or "tough/ tender"?

I don't know about things like that. What about a big, burly man that enjoys boxing and meditating in a butterfly garden? Is he tough or tender? Would his gender change depending on his mood or activity? If so, what would be the point of identifying with a specific gender?

Please know I'm not being argumentative. I see your point. I'm just trying to build on what you're saying.

For my own clarification, which words/language are you referring to in the rock and roll or hip hop context? If we're thinking about the same type of thing, most of those words became popular not out of necessity, but just as something trendy. And a majority of them aren't used anymore.


Am I wrong that there is a need for new language to describe our thriving community, as well?

I don't think you're wrong. I just think there are waaaay too many blurred lines for it to be defined with vocabulary. Giving a name to every point on a spectrum would be nearly impossible.

[Vickie_CDTV]

The trans community has (and has had for a long time) our own terminology and language to describe our condition, even if some terms lack precision (much like the English language can lack precision at times.)

[sometimes_miss]

I'm wondering, considering that sex and gender are now considered separate things, why do we still use the same words to describe both?<snip> why does gender also have to equal male/ female? Wouldn't it be more useful to start anew and propose new words for these extremes on the gender spectrum?
Because that's the way 99% of the general population does it, and 99% of those, don't want to learn anything different, so we learn to live with it. To them, there's: Male or Female, and that's it, each encompasses the complete physical sex and gender together. If it's not in the bible (Koran, Torah, whatever book they subscribe to, sorry if I misspelled anything) they don't want to deal with it. The fact that so many want to kill us just for offending their beliefs tells you a lot of how the world is still so screwed up by people who legislate laws regulating behavior appropriate to particular sex (there are still laws on the books against dressing in clothes of the opposite physical sex, remember?). We still have such laws in the backwards areas of the U.S., so you can imagine how bad it is in some even more backwards places.

[NicoleScott]

May, no harm done, no offense taken. But to the point:
I'm just having trouble seeing how we can use different words to describe different gender identities and/or presentations by defining them without using the kind of words you want to get away from, like masculine/feminine. Even tough and tender have implications, so they would need to be new words to avoid stereotyping (tough=manly, tender=womanly).

[Rhonda Darling]

We are not alone!

See: http://apps.carleton.edu/student/orgs/saga/pronouns/ and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-specific_and_gender-neutral_pronouns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_English#Pronouns
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2013/10/17/gender_neutral_pronouns_will_they_ever_catch_on.ht ml

In other words, a quick google search and some reading is probably in order so we can examine and build on what others have already begun.

Best,
Rhonda

[Beverley Sims]

This isn't 101....
This is part of a Phd.
Where everyone gets bogged down in pedantics. :)

Sorry, I just read closely and there is some serious thought here.
My statement still stands everyone gets bogged down and clear discussion goes out the door.
Stay on track and it is interesting reading.

[Jackie7]

Lilith has it right I think, these are spectrums not binary poles. There are infinite shades and degrees on each axis. By the way there are at least four axes to consider:

-biological sex, male to female and all of the intersex conditions in between. you're born with this, and while medical intervention can change the details it doesn't change the chromosomes.

-sexual preference, hetero to homo with all of the bi, pan, and poly points in between. people will argue about whether this is given by nature or nurture, personally I think it is some of both. Seems to be somewhat malleable in adolescents but wired into adults? I dunno really.

-gender, your internal compass, how you think of yourself, again it is a spectrum. I think this does change as we grow and age. I believe my female aspects have emerged and become stronger as I've lived, loved partners, raised children, and aged.

-gender presentation, how you look, act, and dress. The most changeable of the four axes, but driven somehow by the other three. I feel like a woman sometimes, and it feels good to match how I present with how I feel.

Of course these are related, but they are also somewhat independent and contradictory. So when you think of these axes - and speak to others of them - as spectrums or ranges, the poles we call "male" and "female" become merely references that mark the ends of each axis. Few people live out there at the ends, and hardly anyone occupies the same point on all four axes.

I recall a presentation at a conference suggesting there were a total of seven axes to consider, but these four are what stayed with me as covering most of what concerns us. I think. Good thread anyway, interesting range of views.

[NicoleScott]

Rhonda, I checked out your links. At first, the first one made me chuckle, but then I could see how overboard (in my opinion) this has become.

So, how do we avoid making incorrect assumptions about gender pronouns? ASK!
"Do you have a preferred pronoun?"

Really?
If I were to meet a man (any man-an NFL lineman) with his wife and kids by his side, am I to ask what pronoun he prefers me to use when referring to him?
Is it really an "incorrect assumption" to refer to a woman as "she" or "her"? Or is the assumtion correct, but the pronoun incorrect - that is, the pronoun you prefer a mismatch with the pronoun gender you present? Isn't it OK to assume gender, with the understanding that if I assumed wrong and you correct me, that I will abide by your preference? Do we live in a time when someone who looks like a man takes OFFENSE by being called "he"? And that his taking offense is MY problem?
If making assumptions is wrong, how about this:
A CDer transforms to go out for the day, and does everything possible to blend, to appear female. While shopping and encountering SA's, the CDer expects to be referred to using feminine references, taking offense when a rude SA says "may I help you, SIR!" A CDer doesn't want to be asked what pronouns to use, just refer to me as I present myself. Isn't that an assumption a CDer WANTS people to make?
A shopper goes to the mall, and while there needs to use the restroom. The shopper sees a security guard and asks "where's the restroom?" Should the security guard, seeing a beautiful young woman before him, be instructed to ask "which one?".
I don't know, it just seems to me that it's getting ridiculous.
None of this is directed at Rhonda, who provided the links.

[gracee]

Then there's this. We speak of "having sex" with each other but do we ever say "having gender"?

[Lucy_Bella]

Take the word sex... It is a noun that describes and object.. The object it describes involves genders sometimes of the same gender with sexual and or intercourse .. Sex is also used as reference to reproductive parts "gender" ..In gender you have 3 types ..Male, female and neutral ..

Gender= Biological
Sex= Representing the act of or reproductive parts..

[Wildaboutheels]

I think it's as simple as that probably at least 80% of the population on the planet [just a guess] old enough to recognize most of the visual cues that set females apart from males, simply think of other Humans as male OR female. Unless they know/have encountered an actual Human that makes them wonder, they expect that men and women will pretty much stick to the "right" clothing and "presentation" for their own sex. This is especially easy to assume for people on the prowl looking for a mate. It's no mystery as to what "most" women and men are looking for in a mate. At least, to get the ball rolling and increase one's odds.

I think most "normal" folks just think of them as interchangeable.

[Julogden]

Sex is male/female/intersex, gender or gender identity is essentially bipolar but actually is more a continuum from man to woman.

Carol

[Rachael Leigh]

Now I can tell there are much smarter folks on this thread than me, but for me I've finally came up with term for me. It's Im cross gendered, I know I'm male in all the parts that count and that can't change. I know many think it can Im just not inclined to go there, so I'm cross gendered. When I dress I'm not a women but I'm somewhere between man and women so cross gendered . My two cents worth

[dusktreader]

I think that masculine/feminine work very well for describing gender. Usually these adjectives are joined with adverbs describing to what degree an attribute expresses gender:

"That skirt adds very feminine lines to her shape."
"Don't you think those shoes make you look a bit masculine?"

They aren't essentialist terms as I see them. There isn't some essential trait or quantifiable state that is feminine or masculine.

It doesn't lend itself to the English language to use male/female as gender descriptors. These work a lot better when we're describing something quantifiable like biological sex. One wouldn't naturally say:

"His work boots make him look so male right now!"
"She's been working on her gait to make it more female"

I think you'll find that substituting masculine and feminine into those previous sentences makes them much more natural.

Another point I'm going to make while I'm up on this soap-box is that there aren't degrees of sex in the same way that there are degrees of gender. There are, of course, intersex people, but it isn't as smooth and continuous as a distribution like gender is. One pitfall I think we can get to is thinking of sexuality and gender as *orthogonal* axes in some sort of human continuum. They aren't, though! Like it or not, there is correlation between gender and sex! They aren't the same axis, but they don't work completely independently of each other. You can move independently along those two continua, but your natural position on one isn't completely uninfluenced by your position on the other.

I think these sorts of discussions are really interesting, but I think we have to be careful about getting so caught up on the details that we overlook the important things. You should describe yourself in the way that you find the most fulfilling and honest to your feelings!

[Amanda M]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! The last think we need is more labels.

[linda allen]

You can assign whatever meaning to a word or words that you want to but if you want to be understood by others, you have to use the definitions that are in general use. The public uses the terms "gender" and "sex" interchangeably except that "sex" can also mean the act of intercourse.

You are wasting your time if you think you can change this.