Justifying need of physical changes

[Lilo]

I am curious about how you, especially the ones still with partners, deal with justifying you need of a surgical physical transformation to others. My partner is very supportive and has accepted this part of who I am. HOwever, when conversations emerge on possible surgeries (especially FFS), she voices her deep concerns about not knowing if, when or where this is all going to stop. I can completely see her point. If I step on her shoes and look at the whole situation, it would also be hard for me to distinguish between what physical changes are absolutely needed to help my dysphoria or social interactions and when I could be crossing a border into a realm driven by vanity and/or by mental ilness related to an inability to ever accept my body (think similar to bulimia). She does slowly accept things but this is currently an issue when I discuss these concepts and potential paths. I am wondering if others experienced the same.

[Ariamythe]

I don't think that there IS a clear dividing line. The physical changes are meant to bring our bodies more in line with our mental identity; anything that brings us closer to that could be considered "necessary to cure dysphoria". And since our bodies will NEVER completely fit the image in our heads, since we can always get closer but never actually get there, EVERY change could be considered neccessary.

I grues what I'm saying is, it's up to the individual. At what point are the changes enough for you to live with? You may never make it to the ideal woman you want to be, but when you're happy with who you are, that's the end of it all.

[Barbara Ella]

Lilo, it has taken my wife two years since I first realized my true self. Only in the last two months could she see me dressed, sit and interact with me as my true self. She now supports my being on hormones, and can look at my breasts, and accept the lack of hair. She still worries about where this might go, as there are no absolutes, only expectations of where one is at the moment.

It really comes down to her feeling that she does not know her place or role in the partnership. Until there is comfort in that, the rest will be in limbo.

Every partnership is different, some move forward, some do not. Always act as if yours is moving forward, maintain positive communication.

Barbara

[mary something]

It's ok to want to be as physically attractive as possible, don't expect it to necessarily make you happier though, there are plenty of unhappy attractive women. What really matters is finding a place that you and your partner can agree upon. It's hard to decide at what point too many physical changes are mental illness when talking about TS's, hrt will eventually change all the soft tissues in the body and after that you're talking about degrees of change in my opinion.

I've had two different partners and discussed these very things with the responses being night and day different. All I can say is that my partner's opinion about how far to go with physical changes influenced me more than I thought it did.

If you're looking for a good place for someone to tell you if you're too vain, mentally ill, or any other deficiency I'd say you're definitely posting on the right board :evilbegon:

[LeaP]

Justification and need are two different things. You need to know for yourself what degree of congruence is required. You need justify that to no-one. Explain it the best you can, educate perhaps, hope for understanding and empathy, but in the end, if you are driven to it, that's all you can do. Justification implies permission. No-one can ethically bar you from being healthy and whole.

We often feel that partners MUST approve, that we be in sync. You cannot count on that in this case.

[Lilo]

By 'justification' I did not imply asking for permision. Yes, I could go at it alone without consideration but this would kill any relationship. Think finances, family responsibilities, time off etc... Let me try an example to maybe clarify. I am just postulating that maybe even if a 'less attractive' GG or male decides to undergo all of these aesthetic procedures, some may question if there may be an underlying acceptance problem that will not get ever fixed. Look at Micheal Jackson as an extreme example. I realize there is a need to present a certain way for us to physically pass BUT some could argue that decisions sometimes may take it too far. I dont have a good argument on each side. I like the results of FFS I have seen (still scared about it though). I just wanted to post this because, like my wife, I sometimes also question things like these.

[arbon]

If your living as a woman then some changes are just practical. Like for me my adams apple is the biggest priority because it is a dead give away and can impact my quality of life (like getting jobs). An orchiectomy makes sense for me because I don't want to keep taking so many pills. FFS would be nice but not something I feel I have to have, same with breast augmentation.

SRS would be great but again I can live without it.

[Angela Campbell]

Practical is the way I think about it. I am going to have some "light" FFS in January (no bone work only soft tissue work) and I am doing so only to make my appearance easier to accept as feminine as I transition. I work directly with customers and I need to make sure I am convincing. I have been told by some I do not need to do this at all, but I think I do so I will. I do not "need" it to help my dysphoria....living as a woman is what helps that. I do not "need" SRS either but I will do so just because to me I will feel more complete then, but if for some reason I cannot do that it will not strongly effect my satisfaction of living as me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Surgeries are a choice. They improve quality of life for transsexuals. How you feel about them is personal. Whether you "need" them is something that only you can ever possibly know.
But trust me, when you are out on the cliff and the door behind is bricked shut...you will want every best chance...
if you think you desire ffs as part of your transition, then you will likely want it even more when you transition.

Any promises you make today regarding what you won't do is just hopes and guesses.
You have no idea how you will feel in the future.
It makes the discussions with your supportive partner difficult, and its not fair..but it is the truth...

Its not that i'm pro or anti anything... I just think the most honest thing I can say to you is that I don't put any credence in promises about the specifics of transition, and neither should your partner.
You are simply going to have to do whatever it takes to feel like you are an authentic and alive person.
If you don't, then you will NEVER feel like an authentic and alive person...its that simple...unfair to your partner? yep.

[kimdl93]

It seems to me that you have quite a few things that you'll have to work through with your wife before you get to the point of seriously contemplating FFS or any surgery for that matter. As Jim Lovell said in Apollo 13 All right," there's a thousand things that have to happen in order. We are on number eight. You're talking about number six hundred and ninety-two."

[PaulaQ]

HOwever, when conversations emerge on possible surgeries (especially FFS), she voices her deep concerns about not knowing if, when or where this is all going to stop. I can completely see her point. If I step on her shoes and look at the whole situation, it would also be hard for me to distinguish between what physical changes are absolutely needed to help my dysphoria or social interactions and when I could be crossing a border into a realm driven by vanity and/or by mental ilness related to an inability to ever accept my body (think similar to bulimia).

This isn't a mental illness. If it were, the treatments they use for mental illness would have some benefit for us. The fact is, none of them really do. Our condition as transsexuals is treated with physical medicine. The gender of our minds mismatches the gender of our bodies. You'll correct this until:
- you feel better, your body no longer feels "wrong"
- you run out of money for treatment
- you suicide

Or perhaps you can continue living in misery. Many do.

I can appreciate your partner's concerns over surgery. I think there are several reasons for this:
1. When they start cutting on you, shit gets real, and there is really no longer any way to pretend "maybe this will go away..."
2. Changing the face of the person your partner loves is going to be jarring. Often this is what they fell in love with in the first place

I fully expect my wife to completely freak when I get FFS. We aren't living together anymore, so I'm unlikely to talk to her about it until after the fact. Perhaps when she can no longer see the "male me" in my face, she'll let go of her feelings for me and start to heal.

Or, let me put this another way - suppose that the only thing I did was go on HRT, and ultimately, get SRS. I'd basically go through life looking like a balding 50 year old man, who happens to have a vagina. That is not the type of situation that results in a very high quality of life. I have lots more stuff to do medically to remedy that.

For your partner to really accept this, she will have to really accept three things:
1. You are a woman. You've always been a woman.
2. You need to correct, as much as is medically / financially possible, the disconnect between your male body and your female brain
3. If she wants to stay with you, she will have to adjust to living with another woman. Or she may have to realize that she can not abide this, and leave.

If she can't understand why you need medical treatment for this, it's very possible that she hasn't truly accepted it yet. Nothing against her - this is a tough, tough thing to accept for anyone, even more so when she'll NEVER truly understand why you need this. She may understand it abstractly at some point, but that's the best you can hope for.

[Aprilrain]

I needed to transition, I needed my body to match my mind as much as was medically possible. For me that meant FFS. FFS is not a beautifying cosmetic procedure. If you have a good surgeon who understands the differences between male and female faces he or she will alter the BONE structure which has been masculinized by testosterone to RETURN it to its previous female proportions. FFS is not about vanity it's about producing the best possible outcome from transition. If money is not an issue and transition is a need why would you not want the best possible outcome?

You say your partner is "accepting....but", I hear this ALL the time. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't but the sad fact remains that like 99.99% of all relationships end do to transition. Don't kid yourself thinking that some awkward partial transition will satisfy her either. I read a thread just the other day where someone was discussing how there partner was "accepting" yet she still uses male pronouns and calls her HUSBAND gay if they wear dresses or heels. I've met many people who "stay" together yet there is no phyisical intimacy, what kind of intimate relationship is that? I think asking a heterosexual woman to accept and stay with a partner who is going through transition from male to female is just too much to ask. Some will say " but my partner and I did it!" but did you really, or are you just staying in an amicable friendship/roommate situation?

[mary something]

When I look at the pre and post pictures of ffs patients on the web it sure seems to (maybe completely inadvertently lol) make a difference in someone's ability to meet the standards of what is considered feminine beauty.

Matter of fact I know that dr zukowski pitches that very concept...

I'm not disagreeing with the underlying premise that it is designed to undo years of extra cartilage and bone growth from testosterone.

Paula made some excellent points that I wholeheartedly agree with. When I look in the mirror I want to see a woman looking back at me. My quality of life will be much better that way. It's not about placing all of my self value on how I look but we are kidding ourselves if that isn't a desirable aspect of the surgery.



I've seen this argument take place on this board many times and I understand the criticisms that my statement is vulnerable to.

Simply put I want to look like the best woman I am capable of being. That is why I want ffs. That is the exact way I explained it to my fiancée and she gets it. It made my ex sick with despair because she doesn't accept me as a woman. That is only one of the many differences between them however and I can tell you that having someone's complete acceptance is a very precious thing. She enjoys helping me catch up on all the things I've missed out on by having to live my life in the wrong gender role for me. When I tell her that if I don't have a b cup after a couple years of hrt she understands and volunteers to to care for me during my recovery for ba. She understands why I desire srs and last week during an intimate moment asked how long after surgery would it take for dilation to become less painful so she could "help me" with it with a big grin on her face while holding me.

You will never convince a partner that these procedures are necessary unless they accept that you are a woman and also if they don't feel internalized shame because of it. If we are carrying any shame over being transsexual our partners will unconsciously pick up on it and feel it also. It's really hard to do this because for the longest time I simply could not accept that I was trans because I had been conditioned to think that trans people are mentally ill. As a child I was threatened repeatedly to be sent to reform schools or military schools to "fix" me but thank goodness they were too expensive and my folks didn't want to spend that much money on their queer son lol.

I could care less what the haters will think, there are many other things I probably disagree with about their worldview anyway.

Ultimately we will be judged by how comfortable we are in our own skin and by how happy and well adjusted we are, with enough time the things that I needed to do to accomplish this won't matter as much as they fade into the past.

I've been swimming upstream my entire life and probably won't stop now over fear that someone will think badly of me. Whatever they choose to think is their problem, not mine. Everyone has a choice in how they will respond and I can't make those choices for them.

[Launa]

As Jim Lovell said in Apollo 13 All right," there's a thousand things that have to happen in order. We are on number eight. You're talking about number six hundred and ninety-two."

Too bad FFS can't be bumped up the priority line to #6 or 7. :)

[Lilo]

I think the trick may be to beable to succesfully convince them that after HRT, FFS, BA, SRS etc... there is an end and that this is NOT a never-ending cycle of procedures. I think that is the origin of their concern, making sure there is an end state.

[celeste26]

Then there is the question of using "our" money for doing something for "me." Because like it or not the income however large or small it might be is family money not just my money. Many if us are less than well off and using huge sums for what seems (to the other) as mere cosmetic changes can threaten relationships all by itself.

I dont know how many others here live month to month, maybe dont even own homes, and struggle to make it at that. Then suddenly we want to spend $20-$30,000 for something that we've done without for 60 years already. It puts that justification into another league altogether.

[Marleena]

I dont know how many others here live month to month, maybe dont even own homes, and struggle to make it at that. Then suddenly we want to spend $20-$30,000 for something that we've done without for 60 years already. It puts that justification into another league altogether.

*Puts hand up*. I'm tired of seeing shut off notices for the hydro. Just paying for HRT meds is a struggle each month but is a necessity for me. Some of us are not ready or expecting this GD to hit when it does. The timing was all wrong for me so I need to be happy with where I'm at. I won't be doing RLE anytime soon in my own city and I've vented about all the physical changes I need for myself. Compromising with our wives is usually short lived if we have to and done so early on.

@ Lilo, for TS women it is not about vanity or mental illness. This "condition" is real and has to be dealt with once you hit that wall. My wife saw me melting down from the GD and was supportive and pushed for me to start HRT. It's about quality of life and doing whatever you can to be comfortable in your own skin.

[mary something]

That is a very legitimate concern Celeste, and could certainly be one of the most difficult objections to overcome. It certainly isn't fair but money is important and necessary if someone is TS and the more money that can be used the better usually. Part of a transition plan needs to be knowing where the money is gonna come from. Part of it is also being flexible and implementing things step by step. It might mean spending a couple hours every day instead of free time running an ebay or amazon business, or even putting transition in slow mode for a couple years and changing careers such as a 2 year rn degree (I know one trans person who did this and by working their 3 days a week plus two days of overtime has been able to afford transition and have a nice lifestyle). Or finding a job with a company whose health insurance covers grs. It could even look like being one of those super coupon people that you see on tv who save thousands of dollars a year on groceries by using coupons and such, there are even internet forums specifically for that and if someone is dedicated enough and makes it more important to them that almost anything else they can make it happen. With enough patience and resolve there is very little that someone can't accomplish.

Lilo, is that your wifes main objection right now? It sounds fair that she wants to know what to expect and what this looks like in real life (transitioning). Has she met anyone in real life that has transitioned and has established themselves in their new gender role yet? Whether it is a ftm or mtf person perhaps that would help her understand if she can see a successful transition of someone who has a career and a loving relationship and can tell her that now they are happier than they have ever been.

[Lilo]

Let me clarify a bit. If you read the original post about 'mental ilness' I never said that TSs had a mental disorder. Instead, I said our actions could be CONFUSED as an illness by someone else overseeing the process (i.e. Partner) that does not know if the TS will ever be happy with the changes. I have read enough and experienced it too to know this. I just did not want to be missquoted.

[Marleena]

Perhaps give your wife more reading material or explain more clearly so she fully understands what you are going through then. You should have an end point in mind too already that she needs to know. I totally get our wives having a hard time understanding this. They didn't sign up for this either. It's a major struggle for both parties. I'm not going anywhere unless I win a lottery.:)

[Lilo]

I agree. The nature of these concerns are a lack of familiarity with the process. To me the end is quite clear but partners dont necesarily know as much about it to have confidence that there is an end.

April, my partner has been outstanding with this and she is very much accepting, she is just concerned like most other partners in any healthy relationship (especially about what she views as cosmetic surgeries but not so much for the ones meant to also improve health (orchi, SRS)). We have been moving forward and I will continue to operate assuming this much.

[mary something]

I guess for me my dream isn't to go from being perceived as a cis male to a transsexual, I want to hopefully accomplish cis male>transsexual>woman with transsexual history. Don't get me wrong I am happier with people knowing me as a transsexual instead of a man because I had much rather live a life that I approve of and feel authentic than to feel dead inside for the rest of my life. I tried for a long time to live a life where everyone else approves of me except myself and it's not living. It's hard to say that to a partner that you have a long history with because of the ramifications. With my ex I needed her approval and permission more than I needed to live authentically but that slowly changed the longer we were together until I reached a point where it began effecting my life and it was time to change course.

When someone looks at my face and calls me sir it invalidates me. If someone calls me Ma'am I feel good because the world is reflecting my identity back to me. That is why I personally want ffs. Natal women see cosmetic surgery as a way to make yourself look more attractive and younger and they usually do that for male attention. I didn't even try to persuade my SO that looking younger or more attractive wasn't a desirable aspect of the surgery because to my ears I would think it sounds like bs and I'm not gonna disrespect her or try to make persuading her contingent upon her thinking that it wasn't an aspect of it. Her main concern after she had thought about it for a while was that she feared that I would want to leave her for a man. I told her that was my biggest fear too, that she would leave me for a man ;). In this case her objection wasn't necessarily because she was against ffs, it was because of a fear that she had regarding my motivations to do so. She was mistaking my motivations for why I wanted ffs because she was assuming I was thinking about it like a woman, instead I was thinking about it like a transsexual and she needed help to see what the world looks like from my perspective.

btw, I didn't feel like you were saying that being ts is a mental illness :) the thing is that a lot of people do because their worldview doesn't allow them to see the difference between gender and sex. To them a male-faced person who insists that they be called a woman is like saying the color blue is green. That is why ffs is important. No one knows how to change someone's brain and switch their unconscious gender identity to a gender that matches their physical sex. If they could it still wouldn't be an appropriate or ethical treatment for this status because you wouldn't be "you" anymore.

Perhaps a better understanding of gender and physical sex would help your wife see that this is a discrete process with beginning and end point. Perhaps meeting someone who is past the physical transition end point and has rearranged their life successfully will help her see that it is real. Most of all try to share your joy with her that you are finally taking action to make your life better because people are a lot quicker to invest themselves in joy and happiness than in uncertainty and unhappiness.

this is my opinion only and by no means do I speak for anyone but myself

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree. The nature of these concerns are a lack of familiarity with the process. To me the end is quite clear but partners dont necesarily know as much about it to have confidence that there is an end.

April, my partner has been outstanding with this and she is very much accepting, she is just concerned (especially about cosmetic surgeries but not so much for medically necessary ones) like partners in any healthy relationship. We have been moving forward and I will continue to operate assuming this much.

I viewed my FFS as medically necessary.. Like Mary, and many others, I viewed my social integration and correct gendering to be a necessary part of my transition. This could only be accomplished with FFS.
The fact that part of FFS is to hopefully give you a more attractive feminine appearance on top of the bone work was icing on the cake.

It can be argued that all of our surgeries are cosmetic and theoretically unnecessary. Our differences at ts people complicate cisgender views of our predicament.

[Lilo]

Ok, clarified the post. SHE still views some of them as cosmetic because of preconceptions, just like Mary said below.

[Kimberly Kael]

There are a lot of surgical procedures that are widely accepted as necessary despite being partly or wholly cosmetic. These are typically associated with birth defects like a cleft palate, or accidents like severe burns, which makes it easier for most to accept that the individual in question is blameless. It's easy to empathize with someone whose appearance makes socialization difficult — until you're faced with someone who appears to be a normative male or female but actually identifies opposite expectations. The relatively invisible nature of their condition makes it difficult to comprehend, and in that sense it really is similar to how we fail to prioritize other forms of mental health.

Not every trans individual has the means to pursue surgical procedures, and it's not necessary for social acceptance in all cases ... but when it is both necessary and accessible? Then I don't see any difference between this and any other procedure intended to help someone conform to social norms. Building self-esteem and finding acceptance with a community are the most critical elements of a successful transition.

[mary something]

Lilo instead of focusing conversations with your wife about a list of procedures and trying to negotiate how much change can or can't happen perhaps a different perspective will help her understand better. It is only normal that your and her relationship will be put under the microscope during this process. It will be stressed in ways that is really hard to conceive of beforehand. Maybe it is better to focus on the general terms of the relationship to make sure that it is working for the both of you.

April raised a point that I haven't been able to stop thinking about all day. What is the purpose of the relationship? The answer to this question will be different depending on who's answering it but if we keep the discussion to very general ideas perhaps you guys can find some common goals that will apply at all times and ages.

For example, I believe that pursuing fulfillment and happiness is each person's responsibility to themselves. As far as I'm concerned that is the meaning of life as far as I can tell. If I say that my SO makes me really happy then I'm giving her the credit for my emotional state, and it also means that if I'm really unhappy about something then it could be her fault since she is responsible for my happiness. Instead I think partners have a responsibility to never stand in the way of their SO's happiness. I can't make anyone happy except myself, but conversely it's easy to try and make someone unhappy and really not that hard if you try ;)

The scary part of this is that she has to feel the freedom to choose to stay or leave. This is the only way that you can show her the amount of love and acceptance that you are asking her to give you. I also think it's the most likely approach to keeping a relationship growing together through a transition, but that's my opinion only for whatever it's worth.

Perhaps if you guys could find a way to have the goal that you will support each other in being the happiest and most fulfilled women you can be together?