Passing or not

[MsJanessa]

I've read some posts where a lot of TVs have said they don't want to go out it public because they can't "pass". Its always been My view that passing or not is not that important--some of the most attractive TVs,TGs and even TSs can't pass all the time---and also some of the most passable CDs are not all that attractive---I have a friend who can always pass---but she is older, heavier and looks like My maiden aunt---but she can walk down a mall or crowded street and not draw a glance from anybody----conversely one of the Hottest CDs I know, the one most popular with the guys and other CDs stands 6'2'' in stocking feet---6'6'' in heels and always draws attention--yet I am very attracted to her---as is everybody else. The point is not about passing or not, it's about looking your best and being confident in who you are--very few of us can pass in all situations and those of us who do aren't necessarily the most beautiful. That should not stop you from going out in public.:dom:

[Sam-antha]

Ms Janessa has a point or two. The first being it is all about confidence. After all, consider the shape and size of many women. I love the length of leg of some of the 5'10" variety, and some shapes I stare at or at least look twice at. Nice. Then about being read, is that so serious if it happens and you are an unknown. Do you look anything recognisable as you ? If your are read that is.

[Julie]

In a CD/TG environment I'd say your observations are correct but you need to consider many of us have no place to go when dressed other than the supermarket or some other mainstream establishment. A 6'6" woman will draw attention no matter where she goes. Your average CD/TG has no desire to be the focal point of attention. They just want to blend in unnoticed and enjoy being a woman. Thus, the desire to pass. Confidence plays a big part plus fear of the unknown. What will happen?

In a friendly environment these things hardly even matter. And if you are tall or overly attractive or just very friendly you can become the center of attention quickly, but at least you'll know it's all good attention.

[Nikki Dee]

I agree...it's all about being confident and comfortable about who you are...not all RG's are stunners as you may have noticed...and I very often notice how tall Rg's are these days....so people see generally what they think they are seeing...enjoy.!!
love Nikki. x

[Rene]

You are quite right. Confidence is everything. I find that most people are to busy with there own lives to even notice you unless you give them a reason to. If you are nervous or avoid eye contact, it just sends up a red flag. I have come to not care if I am read. I figure at worst I am good example for the transgender community.

[Sam-antha]

That is really it "C & C."
I wish to goodness that I had a friendly environment to visit sometimes. Edinburgh is as near as I know and that is mostly out of reach.
More importantly, I used to think that to avoid eye contact was important, it is not so, eye contact, not overlong, produces confidence in appearance. But please let the contact be fleeting, dont flirt.
Somebody mentioned the fear of what might happen..... in a way that "fear", , providing you are confident, is part of a sort of rush on going through that door, whether it is your house, car or a shop.

[Reana]

"conversely one of the Hottest CDs I know, the one most popular with the guys and other CDs stands 6'2'' in stocking feet---6'6'' in heels and always draws attention--yet I am very attracted to her---"



Confidence is directly related to self image. "Passability" is all in the mind. I think the word "passable" is much overused among CDs. For most, to be truly passable they would have to be pre-op or post-op Transexual and on hormones. I could never be passable or fool anyone due to my height, among other reasons. My goal has always been to be seen as a male that is capable of presenting a very femme appealing image when dressed totally femme. I would be very satisfied to be seen as one of those CDs described in the previous response documented above. I realize this may conflict with some of the "purists" here but there does seem to be two camps here in terms of what we wish to accomplish with our dressing. I hope the picture included in this message is something many can relate to.

[KathrynW]

I realize this may conflict with some of the "purists" here but there does seem to be two camps here in terms of what we wish to accomplish with our dressing.
Honestly...I'd say there are probably more than "two camps". There are as many reasons, goals, etc. for cd-ing, and passing or not-passing, as there are people who are doing it. I seriously doubt that we'll ever all be in mutual agreement on the subject of "passing".
I personally believe that passing is very important. That's precisely why I don't venture out in public, myself. Yes, I've heard many times that it's all about "attitude" and I buy that to a certain extent. I also feel that geographic location has a lot to do with passing.

[Jodi]

Just my two cents worth as one who goes out in regular venues.

To be presentable and accepted--that is my goal. For passability, I pass the 200/200 test. I am totally passable at 200 yards and at 200 mph. I posted about my experience this new years eve. Some knew immediately, some had doubts at first, and some were clueless. The positive comments were that I had confidence, had poise, had a together look, and that I knew how to accessorize an outfit. Yes, they know I was a guy in a dress, but they appreciated the effort that I went to to look good. That leads to acceptance.

Also, a comment about eye contact that was made. Do make eye contact with others, and SMILE. I can not over emphasize the smile. Woman greet each other, even strangers, with a smile. I have found that when out as a cd in a regular venue, a sincere smile will always break the ice with a woman.

Jodi

[windycissy]

Passing has become second-nature to me by now, although I always feel those butterflies in my stomach when I go out the door. On rare occasion when I just don't "feel" right about the way I look, I'll stay home. Once I'm out and about, I try to think of myself as a woman, and that's really not a hard thing to do when you're wearing a skirt and stockings, feeling earrings dangling and inhaling the scent of your own cologne. Getting into character while I'm putting on my makeup helps - like practicing my Windy voice - but no matter how together I look and feel, on rare occasion I still get read. I hate it, but I just move on. I figure, even if 10% of the people I encounter realize I'm a guy, 90% of the time I am passing as a woman, and I'm not going to give that up to avoid the occasional embarrassment. Still, I always stay in safe places and get home before it's too late.

Windy

[SweetHosedFeet]

A couple of thoughts...

First of all going out in public is NOT for everybody.

I stand 6'1 on my hosed feet so I'm far from "passing" and still I have had wonderful times out to both public (supermarket/cinema/restaurant) and friendly places.

I didn't have any "bad" experiences while out and from my point of view, confidence was my best asset. Let me explain, average women in Mexico City are about 5'2 so obviously there's no way I could have "passed" as a girl.

Also, men there (I just moved to Guatemala) are not exactly what you would call "open-minded" so that wasn't something I could count to my advantage while out.

Attractive (as well as ugly) girls (GG/CD/TV/TS) always get people's attention everywhere and most of us don't really look like your average "next door" kind of girl so keep that in mind if passing is that important to you.

I think that passing at 100% is impossible because it doesn't matter where you go, someone will ALWAYS find out that you're not a girl and depending on how he/she behaves, few or several others could find out as well (come on, you really think he/she's going to keep it for him/herself?) so if you're going out it would be best not to focus as much on "passing" as on self-confidence, at least from my point of view.

Anyway, I do like the kind of attention people give me when I go out so I couldn't care less about passing. Still... as I said before, going out is not for everybody.

Yours,
Zara

[Michelle Hart]

For me I would like to pass but my height makes that very difficult. So I have began to focus more on being "Believable" by acting moving and sounding like a woman.

Just tonight I stopped for gas and saw a GG and the first thing I thought was .....what a sloppy guy......... then I realized this guy was actualy a girl upon further examination.

So there are many GG's out there who carry themselves so poorly and dress so badly that at first glance you may beleive they are male. So their gender is the only thing that makes them "pass".

Don't worry so much about Passing, be belieable.......

[Rachel Morley]

The point is not about passing or not, it's about looking your best and being confident in who you are--very few of us can pass in all situations and those of us who do aren't necessarily the most beautiful.
Hear! Hear! MsJanessa.

Here's a link to another time we discussed passing earlier in December.
http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=281291#post281291

[Helana]

I have noticed that the holy grail of passing is being discussed less and less on CD sites so I think the message is slowly sinking in that passing is not the end goal at all, the objective is to be who you are and be confident in projecting that image. People will accept you if they sense that you are genuine in your conviction. Confidence is the key to unlocking the outside door.:cool:

One key thought is this - nobody who sees you knows how many times you have been out en femme. They have no way of knowing that this is your first, second third or one hundredth time out. In fact they will most likely assume that you do this all the time so why not take advantage of their assumption and act as if you really are a full time woman;)

[GypsyKaren]

I think way to much emphasis and worry is put on passing, it gets to be like a sword hanging over your head. Let's face it, we have the wrong genes and features, and there's only so much you can do with a wig and make-up. I for one am not going to let "god's little mistake" keep me from living my life the way it was meant to be lived.

I've been going out now for almost a year, and the only problems I've had are an oggasional giggle from teen-age girls, and a few stares. I treat everyone with courtesy and respect, and pretty much get that in return. I'm not out to be taken for a woman, just as a person. For me it's all about being myself and feeling real, and that makes me feel pretty, so I'm happy with that.

GypsyKaren

[ReginaK]

I am one of those people, that even if I were on hormones, my sheer size would keep from passing for anything other than an extremely masculine women.

I've come to the conclusion that the day I do go public, I won't try even very hard to "pass". I'll just carry myself as properly as possible. As far as trying to pass as a woman, I believe that would attract more attention than if I were to just behave normally.

[Miss Vicki]

I went to the mall the other day and looked at people as they walked by. I thought that, "What if all the female looking people were really males dressed as females?" How many could I spot as crossing over".
There were many that I saw as, men in a dress that were actually GG'S. I mean that they looked just about as good as I would if I was walking there with them. They deffinitely had the confidence to walk around and not be as scared to death as I would be. They looked kinda ........... natural. Hmmmmmmm Maybe there is something to that. I we just walked around like we own the place we can pass.
Just my observation. Has anyone else thought the same ???

[Helana]

Hi Vicki

I have had the exact same observation. I often see women who could easily be mistaken for men if only they appeared anxious and unnaturally stiff in their behaviour. It is their natural confidence which sends you the loud signal that this must be a GG.

I have seen some clips of Transamerica which has a GG playing the role of a TS in transition. In order to convince you that she is is a MTF TS, the actress stiffened up her body, made her body movements more awkward and appeared less confident in herself to project the idea that she was not a GG. It is an interesting way to look at this issue as the actress had to de-construct what made her a woman.


As far as trying to pass as a woman, I believe that would attract more attention than if I were to just behave normally.
Quite correct, if you followed these "passing guides" they would have you doing all sorts of stupid things which would only make you stand out more. A classic is the instruction to place one foot in front of the other as if you were walking along a tightrope. Well I dare you to go to your local mall and find any woman who does this. I have failed miserably. Only fashion models practice this type of exaggerated walk, nobody else.

Another is walking balancing a book on your head. That type of poise may have been all the rage in Victorian times but would look incredibly stiff today.
Why not throw in the whalebone corset and huge petticoat to complete the blending in :rolleyes:

[Nyx]

In my opinion, passing is all in the face. It's very easy to hide the less interesting parts of the body with appropriate clothing, to turk, to wear a waist cincher, padded panties and breast forms. This simply does the trick.

But your face, you can hardly hide. It's what you show to people everyday, all the time... And some men have a very masculine face. The only thing you can do, short of surgery, is a killer makeup job, but it might not suffice.

[MandyTS]

Passing is a term that I no longer use or accept. I feel that NO CD will ever be 100% passable unless there were other factors such as myself being intersexed, etc. Even then TSs are only about 99.9% passable, and some less.

The only way to be really percieved as a woman is for someone to look at you without you moving, study your body lines, facial structure, and stature and say, GG! The only way that is going to happen is through FFS, hormones, etc. There are certain diviations from the norm but it is rather strict in regards to what things scream GG, which is the percise reason that FFS is so popular.

I say a GG in the store the other day, she was actually 1/2 inch taller that me and I am 6'6'. There was no mistaking she was a GG based on facial structure alone; no mannerisms, voice, etc was required. That is why I would not dream of going full time without brow ridge reduction, mainly because that is the most masculine part of my face and the most noticable to me.

In regards to the word passing, I perfer to use the word "organically living in the role of our choice." If we choose to live and not pertend things just fall into place. To be honest, the only way we live organically is to embrace womanhood in all aspects of our lives, and that really means, really, becoming a woman on the inside.

I can not CD anymore in the way many people do, I just feel fake. In 12 months of so I will have breasts and be closer to the ideal female weight and size. At that time part time living will be a reality, a few years later RLT and SRS are probable.

We don't ever really pass, we live: Plain and Simple!

[paulaN]

Passing is always my goal but if I don't get out soon it might not matter. I realy need a girls day out. he## I'll take a girls day in right now.

[Sam-antha]

There is so much to read and absorb in this series... I can only say that when I go out, my aim is to do just that... go out.
What is involved if you do not pass ? Temporary embarassment from an unknown ? Forget that, the unknown will probably never see you again.
Might the unknown recognise the "you" under the "en femme you" ? Very doubtful, so forget that too.
Just go out, be confident and project the image that you are supposed to do. A happy woman/girl which is what you will be when you are out..

[JoAnnDallas]

I have started believing in the old saying.

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck".

I have started believing that most people will see you this way. if you look like a woman, walk like a women, use a fem voice, then you must be a women.

When I am out and about, if I see a person dressed as a women, with makeup, hair, nails, and etc, I will assume that it's a women. In 99% of the time I will then go on my merry way and not worry about her. I feel when we are out dressed, that 99% will look at us, see a women and go their merry way.

[Rachael R]

I always traveled to the "big city" to go out since whether I passed or not, there was a certain amount of anonimity since only my TG friends there knew me. Those weekend trips boosted my confidence level immensly.

As my confidence grew, I began clubbing in the local area, usually local gay venues because I didn't have to be "on my guard" so much.

One of the biggest confidence boosters I ever had was the night I played pool with some lesbian girls that worked with me on a daily basis and they did not recognize me.

Hold your head up, and act natural, and most of all, act like you belong whereever you are. You will be amazed how well things go.

[Wendy me]

see this passing thingy it's more of them lable things thrown in with every thing , passing just what is it ?? to look like a drop dead beautfull gg?? to have every one looking at you or just to blend in and not have anyone notice you at all??by what standards do we judge "passing" ??? and whay dose everyone make such a big deal out of it ??? and dose every one need to pass? well to me cding is so diffrent to so manny difrent cders i say do what your comfy with and it's all good....if setting at home in stockings and heels
hairyer than sasquash is what makes you happy veary cool....if shaved plucked and tuched dressed to the 9's out and abought dose it for you cool it's so manny difrent things to so manny difrent people ... it's all good be who you are and be happy...

[Lissa Stevens]

I think for a lot of us when we say we want to be able to pass it is because there are those of us that no matter what we do to our appearance we will always look like an NFL lineman in drag. When you you like that people will notice. When people notice someone might point you out or say something. No one likes to be ridiculed and that is what some of us are trying to avoid. For those of you who can and do go out you have my greatest admiration and respect but please don't think that all of us can do that. When you start to make blanket statements you hurt everyone.

[KathrynW]

For those of you who can and do go out you have my greatest admiration and respect but please don't think that all of us can do that. When you start to make blanket statements you hurt everyone.
Lissa~
I agree 100% ;)

[MsJanessa]

Its been 36 hours since I started this post and as I read down the other comments it occurred to Me that a lot of people are worried--maybe with some justification--that they will be confronted and harrassed if they don't "pass". The main reason why most of us may not pass all to the time has to do with size(most men are bigger than most women) and if you are the height and weight of an NFL full back you might not be taken for a GG--(although you might be a beautiful and sexy CD) but I can virtually guarantee you that you will not be harrassed---most people would be too intimidated. IVe found that if I stride into anyplace, whether its a TG club, shopping mall or grocery store with confidence and pride, I don't get bothered. Only once was I confronted by someone(and I'm 5'11'' in stocking feet and always wear 3'' or more heels) and then the guy---after saying youre not a girl, asked for a kiss---I just smiled, said not today and walked on. One finally piece of advice---If you do go out, act like a lady---you will be much more likly to be treated like one---if you act in a rowdy and loud manner---well then you will be treated accordingly----have a great day.:dom:

[KathrynW]

if you are the height and weight of an NFL full back you might not be taken for a GG--(although you might be a beautiful and sexy CD) but I can virtually guarantee you that you will not be harrassed---most people would be too intimidated.
Where do you live "Mistress" Janessa? There's no way that you can accurately make that claim and speak for everyone in every part of the country. Absolutely. No. Way.

If you do go out, act like a lady---you will be much more likly to be treated like one---if you act in a rowdy and loud manner---well then you will be treated accordingly----
(see above)

[MsJanessa]

I live in Maine---in Bangor and regularl go out to nightclubs both here and in Portland---also the the Maine Mall and other types of stores---It's not exactly a rural enviorment but not a big city either---where do you live?

[KathrynW]

I live in Maine---in Bangor and regularl go out to nightclubs both here and in Portland---also the the Maine Mall and other types of stores---It's not exactly a rural enviorment but not a big city either---where do you live?
Ozark Mountains in Arkansas. I can virtually guarantee that a non-passable cd in public would not only be harassed here, but would more than likely end up in the ICU or worse. There's a KKK headquarters about 25 mi. from here. Get my drift?

[Lissa Stevens]

Some of us live in very redneck places where if you are dressed you are considered gay and gay bashing at times has been considered a sport. I can take care of myself one on one but if five or six guys jump me I am toast. My area has one CD friendly bar where people go just to watch and make fun. We are a little backward here in the midwest.
The point I am trying to make is some of us cannot go out dressed. Whether it is from physical abuse, public humiliation, or other complications, our reasons at least to us are real and important. When you do not try to understand us, you make us a separate group from yourselves. When we become split we don't have as strong a voice and we are no longer considered a group worth listening to or giving respect to. A very wise person once said "A house divided against itself cannot stand". Please try to understand our reasons, don't make us feel inferior. We already have had to fight those feeling for too long.

[PennyAnne]

The best advice I had was that if I was going to live and work as a woman I should get my face done first. Fortunately I had very little facial hair so electrolysis was minimal. Admitedly , the total facial reconstruction was about three times as expensive as SRS, but worth every cent. "You never get a second chance to make a first impression"

[susandrea]

I'm not a CD and even I can tell you that the vast majority of CDs wouldn't try and make you feel inferior for not going out if you live in a dangerous place.

But why do you live there? CD or not????

There are so many who DO want to go out and are doing battle with nagging doubts that hang them up. The truth is, for THEM (and for MOST CDs) there is just as much a chance of getting mugged as there is of getting beaten up for being a CD, so to use it as a reason to stay at home isn't a strong one. As said before here in this forum many times, "the big, bad world" is really an excuse to avoid the harsh reality of the whole "passing problem".

Of course not everyone can move to a more accepting place and try to bring a better balance to their lives, but god, if there is the slightest chance of doing so then DO SO! There isn't a successful person in the world, CD or no, who would recommend staying in a hostile environment out of fear of the unknown or-- heaven forbid-- lack of self-confidence. Think of it this way-- if you lived in a shit-hole in North Dakota but you thought you had the musical talent of the next Mozart, wouldn't you somehow find a way to get out and make a better life for yourself? What a waste if you didn't, huh? So, should it only be a remarkable talent that drives you to take a chance for a better life in a better place? Of course not! Often it's a "mental paralysis" that keeps people from taking a chance, big or small, that may or may not lead to success.

WOMEN DO IT ALL THE TIME-- shrug their shoulders and say "it's impossible". But some people DO force a change, they work their butts off and never stop trying until they get to a better place. Sheer strength of spirit and guts. Look at all the people who load up in tiny boats and set out for a neighboring country in search of freedom, with only a slim chance of survival. Do you have it worse than THAT????

At the end of your life you will probably have to take some kind of accounting of yourself, and add-up all the times you COULD HAVE made a change for the better and didn't, making excuses that it was just too hard or "impossible". And the CD aspect of your lives is just one part of it!

If you hate where you live, if it's oppressive and dangerous, you have only yourself to blame for staying there. There is NEVER a iron-clad reason to stay, just more difficult ones. If the place where you live sucks, you should try and leave even if you AREN'T a CD! Is it your friends and family you're staying for? The same ones who make your life so difficult? Your kids? Your wife? You want them to live in a mean, dangerous place? This is a huge world and there are so many places you can go that are better and not expensive. You just have to do your research and make a huge effort-- and don't buy into the fear.

I've moved many, many times to try for a better life. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it sooooo didn't-- but I can never fault myself for not trying. And I'd do it again in a heartbeat! In fact, I'm working on it right now....

[KathrynW]

But why do you live there? CD or not????
obligations? job? family? etc, etc?

there is just as much a chance of getting mugged as there is of getting beaten up for being a CD, so to use it as a reason to stay at home isn't a strong one.
Please clarify this...Did you mean to say there's just as much a chance of a non-cd getting mugged as there is of getting beaten up for being a CD?
It seems that's what you mean to say. If so...there are so many holes in your theory, I don't even know where to start...

[Lissa Stevens]

Please don't judge until you have walked a mile in my heels. I never said I lived in a shit hole. For the most part where I live is great. It is just very backwards compared to the east or west coast or even Chicago. I was trying to speak for some of our other sisters as well as myself so I used some generalizations. Maybe I should not have tried to speak for others but I was trying to help the ones who don't have as big a mouth as I do.

I happen to be involved with a number of civic activities where if my crossdressing came out it would make it hard for me to be involved. I would not get the cooperation and support I get now. When you are perceived to be a civic leader your image with the public can make or break your efforts. Maybe right now these Volunteer efforts are more important to me that making a political or social statment about my dressing. I don't know, but a number of things have to be considered before coming out of the closet.
We are all individuals. we are not a group of robots with the exact same programming. What works for you may not work for me. If you cannot understand that I am sorry for you.

I am glad that most of the sisters I have dealt with on this site so far have not been as judgemental as a few have been. We have spent most of our lives questioning ourselves and feeling crappy about ourselves without someone who is supposed to be in the same boat making us feel as low as the outside world does. I know that my reasons are justifiable and if you don't agree that is your right. Just don't try and make yourself feel superior because you go out and I don't. We should be doing everything possible to help one another not knocking each other down.

I will get off my soapbox for now. Don't make me climb back on it, it could get real ugly. LOL.

[Fallen Angel]

As most of you girls know i do go out quite regualy but its not always the looks that do the passing!! its how you carry your self that to me is the most inportaint part of it frame of mind youd be suprised on how that plays as most of role xxxxx

[KathrynW]

Just don't try and make yourself feel superior because you go out and I don't. I will get off my soapbox for now. Don't make me climb back on it, it could get real ugly. LOL.
Amennnn Lissa!!! :clap:

[susandrea]

obligations? job? family? etc, etc?

Please clarify this...Did you mean to say there's just as much a chance of a non-cd getting mugged as there is of getting beaten up for being a CD?
It seems that's what you mean to say. If so...there are so many holes in your theory, I don't even know where to start...

Kathryn, it's no secret that you have an alarming and steadfast belief that you are doomed to live in fear, that you are powerless to change your life for the better. Nearly every post you make is filled with the most defeatist attitude I've seen in ages. Very similar to women who continue to live with abusive husbands! I'm so sorry you feel this way, that all is lost and hopeless.

Not everyone wants to settle for that, and shouldn't.

You can have "obligations" anywhere, you can pick up and move to a better place on your own-- or be forced out by fire or flood. People do it every day. Many actually succeed!

Yes, some CDs are beaten up for being CDs, gays for being gay--- killed even. Yes, and women are raped and children are kidnapped by assholes. So, does everyone hide in a cave? And it's far, far worse for people in some other countries. We here in the West can't even imagine how hard it's been for women who live in strict Muslim countries, like those who suffered under the Taliban in Afganistan. A CD in a Muslim country? Forget it.

But here in the States the statistical truth is that CDs actually DON'T get beaten up or murdered more than anyone else. I do believe Blacks are number one in that catagory, for many unfortunate reasons. In most States the law is behind you, there to protect you if you only have the guts to demand respect and stand up for your rights as a human being. Most CDs will wait for their braver sisters to do this for them, but some day it will happen.

Again I say-- if you live in a shit-hole (or just a repressive Red State) and refuse to even try and leave, whether for CD reasons or not, I guess you really never will be happy and secure, and you will be in the closet until the end of your life. What's the saying? "If you don't think you'll succeed, you're right!"

Myself, I'd rather die trying for something better than settle for a life of fear and repression. I was once in that kind of situation. So, I fit what I could into my little 7 year-old car, threw the rest of my belongings in the dumpster, and armed with only $250 I drove two thousand miles away to "start over". I failed, and that entire year sucked beyond belief. But I never faulted myself for trying.

Eventually things got better. But only because I refused to settle for worse.

Kathryn, I think I cross my fingers more for you than anyone else here. I so hope someday you will believe you are worth as much as everyone around you, that someday you will believe you have as much a right to happiness and security as anyone else.

If a CD decides NOT to go out into the world, then that is their right. I know there are many, many reasons not to, and good ones.

It's the fear factor that seems so over-blown. And it's tied into the reason for this thread-- fear of not passing keeping CDs at home.

[KathrynW]

Kathryn, it's no secret that you have an alarming and steadfast belief that you are doomed to live in fear, that you are powerless to change your life for the better.
Geez...where did all this come from? doomed? powerless? Where did I say that?
All I've ever said is that I live in the real world, and deal with my real circumstances as they are. And, I don't really appreciate blanket statements about what "all" cd's can do, because all cd's can't do the same things. So, where does the rest of this drama come from?

You can have "obligations" anywhere, you can pick up and move to a better place on your own-- or be forced out by fire or flood. People do it every day.
Why would I do that when I'm quite content with where I live? It's like Lissa said in this thread....cd-ing is NOT that important for everyone. For some of us, it's just a part of our life, it doesn't rule our life.
All I stated was that a non-passable cd in public would be very likely to get his butt kicked where I live. The solution is simple. I don't CD in public. I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

But here in the States the statistical truth is that CDs actually DON'T get beaten up or murdered more than anyone else
I'm interested in more info. Please post a link with your statistics documenting this.

[susandrea]

Geez...where did all this come from? doomed? powerless? Where did I say that?
All I've ever said is that I live in the real world, and deal with my real circumstances as they are. And, I don't really appreciate blanket statements about what "all" cd's can do, because all cd's can't do the same things. So, where does the rest of this drama come from?

Why would I do that when I'm quite content with where I live? It's like Lissa said in this thread....cd-ing is NOT that important for everyone. For some of us, it's just a part of our life, it doesn't rule our life.
All I stated was that a non-passable cd in public would be very likely to get his butt kicked where I live. The solution is simple. I don't CD in public. I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

I'm interested in more info. Please post a link with your statistics documenting this.

I guess I'm refering to when you stated that only CDs who can pass 100% of the time should go out. (and ealier thread)

Yes, it is true some CDs don't place a great deal of importance on that aspect on their lives.

I said, and believe, it's up to each individual if they choose to go out or not.

I hope everyone here-- CD or GG, reads this thread:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20588

If the majority of people in this world, CD OR NOT, could reach inside themselves and push the envelope-- *sigh*-- it would certainly be a wonderful thing.

[susandrea]

[FONT=Georgia]Where did I say that?

Ozark Mountains in Arkansas. I can virtually guarantee that a non-passable cd in public would not only be harassed here, but would more than likely end up in the ICU or worse. There's a KKK headquarters about 25 mi. from here. Get my drift?



There's one example.

[KathrynW]

I guess I'm refering to when you stated that only CDs who can pass 100% of the time should go out. (an ealier thread)
Well yes, that is my own personal opinion...but, it's not shared by too many here, and I can accept that. You know what they say...opinions are like @$$holes... ;)

If the majority of people in this world, CD OR NOT, could reach inside themselves and push the envelope-- *sigh*-- it would certainly be a wonderful thing.

ahaaaa...pushing the envelope (not really my specialty)...now, I think I see where you're coming from....
:bonk:

[susandrea]

Well yes, that is my own personal opinion...but, it's not shared by too many here, and I can accept that. You know what they say...opinions are like @$$holes... ;)


ahaaaa...pushing the envelope (not really my specialty)...now, I think I see where you're coming from....
:bonk:

I hope so. And keep on wearing those pointy cockroach killing shoes! They're the best! :D

[KathrynW]

I hope so. And keep on wearing those pointy cockroach killing shoes! They're the best! :D
Whatta you talkin about?
You're the GG...you're the one who's supposed to wear them!
With the expensive leather ones, you probably wouldn't even get blisters! :dance:

[raelene]

Hi,
I really dont attempt to try to pass, I just enjoy dressing. If anyone dont like the way i look, then they dont have to stare. Its totally my choice and I myself enjoy and like dressing.
Raelene

[MsJanessa]

I understand why people can't move----financial, personal, professional reasons---I probably wouldn't stay here in Bangor except I have a good paying job which I like and financial obligations which I don't like---and I certainly wouldn't force somebody out in public if they truely didn't want to go there--neither would I advocate going to anyplace dangorous---if you cant' go in your home town, plan a trip to the big city---also go someplace accepting like drag night at a gay bar. All I know is that I've been dressing all My life and didn't dare go out in public--for the same reasons you gave--until 6 years ago when I was 46---it was the bravest thing I ever did---but each time after that got easier- My biggest regret is that I didn't start in My 20s---one peice of advice---I've started to think more like a woman when I go out dressed---I'm always careful about where I go, who I hang out with, where I park my car etc.---it pays to think defensivley--I've never had a problem. Janessa

[Sage GG]

I hope you realize that most GG have the same worry, some of us are not a size two and have been told to always wear earrings because with that short hair you could be taken for a man in drag. of course any generously sized womans greatest fear is the question, When are you due, dear?

Sage GG

[Rikki Elisabeth]

I found that as I grew older, I grew bolder. I don't care what other people think. [Sure, I blush and hurry off if some child points and says: Mommie, look at that weird lady."] Why? I don't seek a confrontation or a scene. In a lot of cases, men try to wear really "sexie" clothing...tight, latex, fishnet hose, 5 inch heels...and they are 40 and look like "doo doo."

When I was in the Marines, they taught us that the best hiding place is in the middle of everything. People will see what they expect to see unless you call undo attention to yourself.

I cared when I was in the service but that was a different story. I don't care now. But, at the same time, dress tastefully unless you can really pass and you don't want people pointing and snickering.

Listen to your mother...don't go out dressed that way.

[Falcor]

I think you're spot on KathrynW,
I've felt uneasy by some of the postings which,probably unintentional,encourage cders to tither out and about;exposing themselves [possibiy]to a hopelessness of physical abuse and ego shattering ridicule.
FACT; most of us can't pass as female NEVER will.
FACT;excursions for a spot of shopping or atotter up to the pub,and not become a figure of fun is a myth.
To those of you fortunate to look the part,make the most of it.
to the rest of us,go along with you're instincts that have kept you safe.
fal

[Lissa Stevens]

Kathryn,

Why even argue with Susandrea. She is a GG. While she may be nice enough women have their own problems and do not understand ours just as we don't understand the

[Butterfly Bill]

Ozark Mountains in Arkansas. I can virtually guarantee that a non-passable cd in public would not only be harassed here, but would more than likely end up in the ICU or worse. There's a KKK headquarters about 25 mi. from here. Get my drift?
At the end of last September I drove from Muskogee, OK to Thayer, MO, across the top or AR, mostly along US Hwy 412, as a quite unpassable CD in a rayon dress, stopping for gas and food along the way, and I was neither harassed nor taken to an ICU. So that may happen, but it is not guaranteed.

Eureka Springs put on a big "En Femme Getaway" event every April.

[KathrynW]

Kathryn,Why even argue with Susandrea. She is a GG. While she may be nice enough women have their own problems and do not understand ours just as we don't understand theirs
Oh, we're not arguing...it's just a lively discussion...:kickbutt:

And...I don't really feel a need to add anything more to Buffalo Bill's commentary here... :yawn:

[susandrea]

Kathryn,

Why even argue with Susandrea. She is a GG. While she may be nice enough women have their own problems and do not understand ours just as we don't understand theirs.

*sigh* It seems quite obvious that there are a few here who are determined to make the worst of everything and totally ignore the many, many success stories from those who are actually out there.

While a CDs issues with society are unique, they do mirror situations that nearly everyone goes through at some time or another.

What it really boils down to is strength of will and confidence.

Just now I remembered that story about the 600 pound woman who spent so many years on her couch her skin actually fused to the fabric. She had heart trouble and had to be rushed to the hospital, still stuck on the couch. She died like that.

It's not funny!

[Lissa Stevens]

Listen I did not become a member here to fight with anyone. Let's just agree that we have different points of view and leave it at that. Let's shake hands and try to work together, who knows we might become friends if we give each other a chance.

[sherri]

I think the dissension in this thread boils down to these points:

1. If you are content staying at home, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Staying home is every bit as viable as not staying home.

2. Being closeted can, however, lead to isolation, loneliness and frustration, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with stepping out as a means of alleviating that situation, or going out for a host of other reasons.

3. If you want to go out but feel you can't where you live, then get out of town for a day or a weekend or whatever and give it a try. And you don't have to go to Chicago or San Francisco either; the nearest large city will do, regardless of what part of the country you live in. It's just that simple - this isn't a difficult problem to solve.

4. It is not essential to fool everyone about your gender in order to go out, but it is helpful to make an effort to look nice and dress appropriately for the place and occasion. There are many, many people out there who will know immediately that you are male and still interact with you in a tolerant, even positive, way if you give them a chance. As for those cretans who will sneer or whisper, if you don't know them, do you really give a rip? Aren't they the same kind of people who make fun of anyone who isn't "the same" as them? I don't know about you, but those people are not going to run my life.

5. There's probably not an "outed" CD here who didn't struggle with fear of the unknown, fear of ridicule, fear of harassment, etc. But when they tried it anyway, the vast majority will tell you their fears were exagerrated, even groundless in some respects. There are many opportunities for positive experiences out there and those of you who harp on the negative are speaking out of paranoia, not experience.

6. Going out is not a "magic pill". Sometimes you'll have a wonderful time and come home elated; other times won't be so great. People are not going to flock to you like you're a movie star; if you want pleasant encounters and new friends, you're going to have to put your best foot forward and make an effort. It's not so terribly different than when you're not wearing a skirt.

[MsJanessa]

Sherrie all I can say is "ditto":dom:

[Sam-antha]

Sherri, You have my complete and full agreement/understanding to your posted position. I am not too sure about item (5), not having been outed in the sense of the word. It depends so much on to who and to what. My own profession/job position would not have allowed a hint of it, I would surely have been out on my neck, never mind unfair dismissal, which did not apply when I was employed.
Anyway Sherri, thank you for the concise appreciation and I hope it helps those who are with problems..

[veronica]

I've read some posts where a lot of TVs have said they don't want to go out it public because they can't "pass". Its always been My view that passing or not is not that important--some of the most attractive TVs,TGs and even TSs can't pass all the time---and also some of the most passable CDs are not all that attractive---I have a friend who can always pass---but she is older, heavier and looks like My maiden aunt---but she can walk down a mall or crowded street and not draw a glance from anybody----conversely one of the Hottest CDs I know, the one most popular with the guys and other CDs stands 6'2'' in stocking feet---6'6'' in heels and always draws attention--yet I am very attracted to her---as is everybody else. The point is not about passing or not, it's about looking your best and being confident in who you are--very few of us can pass in all situations and those of us who do aren't necessarily the most beautiful. That should not stop you from going out in public.:dom:


my main concern is being beat up or even raped no one should have to worry about that but that is the world we live in.:strugglin

[LeatherPixie]

I have no illusions about "passing" as a woman when I dress. Thats not what it's about. For me, it's about the sensual feel of the clothes on my body, the rush I get from the possiblity of being caught en femme.

Do I fantasize about being a woman in a vulnerable position? Sure. Do I really [B]want[B][ to be a woman? Nope.

I CD because it feels good to me, because I love the look of the clothes. :)

[Christina Nicole]

I can soft-of pass. Living in the northeast, there are a lot of places I can go and not run into anyone I know. I keep my regular life and my CD life separate. It must be that way. My wife doesn't like my crossdressing. Being discovered would likely be a disaster for my career. As long as I can keep both "world" isolated, going out works for me. There are a lot of places in the country where that couldn't work because there aren't enough places to go. Sooner or later, one would run into someone who knows the crossdresser, and if the crossdresser doesn't pass, he probably would be recognized.

Moving is not always so trivial. If one has spent 20 years building a business and has a great reputation and client base, it is not easy to leave. Likewise a farmer in the Midwest is going to have a hard time finding a hundred acres to farm in the gender friendly Bay Area unless he has a few hundred million for land. I can think of many occupations that do not lend themselves to picking up and starting over again.

I enjoy my crossdressing. But it's not the most important thing in my life. I make a very, very good living. It pays for my family to have everything they need. It pays for a lot of extras for us, too. If I had to choose between risking losing some of my clients because they thought I was "weird" for being a crossdresser, which would cut my earnings, or skipping crossdressing. I'd trash my dresses in a New York minute.

Most people have responsibilities to others. It is grossly irresponsible to throw away a great career and high earnings for a "maybe" just so that one may crossdress. To me, crossdressing is something I enjoy, as is going out. But, I won't trade my luxury cars and boats for an econobox car and a rowboat because I my earnings won't be as good if I were "out".

I gave up crossdressing when it became a problem before and I would do it again if the same circumstances occur. There are a lot more things in life that are more important.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

What Sherri said...

It's worth remembering that even post-op TSs like Andrea James get read sometimes. It happens. Yes it's easier going out in some areas than others, but I know a number CDs in small-town America who go out and live to tell about it.

Hell, I know someone who goes out, as she puts it, as stereotypical 1950s TV housewife (and yes she dresses just like Donna Reed/June Cleaver) without incident. Do people think she's eccentric. I'm sure they do. OTOH there are a lot of eccentrics in this world.

But going out isn't for everyone and if it's not your thing, there's no shame in staying home. I only see it as a problem if someone unnecessarily paralyzed by worse-case scenarios that exist only in their own mind.

Frankly, my experience is that most people don't seem to care how your dressed in most situations. (Which is not to ignore that TG hate crimes exist, but statistically they're fortunately a minute number when you think about all the people going out.) If you're making a good effort to present yourself as a woman, my experience is that they're willing to "play along" as it were. In short, if you act like you deserve respect, my experience is you usually get it.

[shelbyjeans4u]

i don't try to pass ,i go out dresed as ME I'm not into what people THINK,I'm here to make myself happy