High Tranny Dudgeon (TS responses only)

[LeaP]

Indignant. Resentful. Angry. Dismissive. Offended.

Alternatively: Elitist. Arrogant. Cliquish.

In a huff. Fit to be tied. Foaming at the mouth.

We are an angry, sensitive bunch. Or are we?

Anne's recent "I'm cool with it" thread got me thinking first. Then I got a PM from a friend wondering if it was just her when she got PO'd when people post things like how to grow boobs by taking hormones. Anne's getting progressively more PO'd. My friend is PO'd. And there are lots of things that come into our happy little forum home that PO an awful lot of us a lot of the time!

Same syndrome, I think. It's the underlying assumption that we (TS that is) share the same beliefs, attitudes, and motivations at some level as those posting the incongruous BS. In the case of Anne's story, it's the assumption that we share the view of our weirdness and inferiority. In the case of the hormones posters, it's the assumption that we are fetish driven too. In the case of the gender variant or CDs that we are a version of more of the same. Etc. Etc. Etc.

It's an example of the general rule that we all project ourselves onto others. But this is a special case, one in which the projection is not only spectacularly inapt, but has the effect of dismissing our reality.

A mildly offensive non-trans analogy is a person asking a pharmacist how they get high. After all, if THEY went into drugs for a living, it would be to get high, so surely the pharmacist did, too. Best response is to laugh and tell them to leave the pharmacy. We do some of that around here. (Usually at this point it's the mods who are PO'd, not us, but I digress.)

A closer analogy to situations where the TS members take real offense is the blundering tourist abroad. The one that demands perfect English in a non-English speaking place, laughs at prized local customs, walks into the cathedral snapping pictures in shorts and sandals during Mass, loudly proclaims that "we have REAL restaurant service back in wherever", and in general behaves like a bull in the china shop ... all the while proclaiming their appreciation for fine china. All of this makes it clear that the tourist assumes the locals either really share his views that they are charlatans and he is justified in blurting the truth, or that they are dupes and idiots for continuing to be so ignorantly gauche, buffoonish, and entertaining. The poor beleaguered locals, who live a completely different reality, get their [pick color here] panties in a wad ... understandably. Since they are at home, they feel pretty free to express their displeasure (torches and pickforks), even when the gendarmes don't necessarily agree.

But what to make of progressive irritation and offense??? Where TS appear to become increasingly sensitive and irritable over time? You know, where we become accused of being elitist as we approach the holy grail (as the non-TS see it) of transition and especially SRS. For me this is simple. Rather than launching into another long explanation, this one can be reduced to a question. I.e., how do you like being slapped while you are waking up? You bet I get more PO'd the more I realize the implications of what is being said.

[stefan37]

I am not sure I would say we are an angry bunch per se. I would say we tend to be overly be overly sensitive as evidenced by these post the last few days. I am thinking the sensitivity is higher early in transition and eases as we progress closer to our target gender. What I do take offense with are posts from those not suffering dysphoria or transitioning demeaning what we are going through. Personally myself I am not all that sensitive or angry. I am transitioning and realize it wil take time for those around me to accept and feel comfortable with what I am doing, and for whatever MENTAL, and physical changes I will undergo.

Changing genders is just so far out of what cis people can understand. It will take years for the general public to be accustomed to comfortably interacting with transgendered or transsexual individuals. I took me many years to acknowledge and accept who I am. I cannot expect somebody that does not suffer from my condition to understand in a short period of time that which took me years.

[Kathryn Martin]

Recently I am very taken by Stephen Fry's response to someone telling him that what he said was offensive (in the political correctness kind of way) : You say your are offended? So f*cking what?

So with a hearty slap on the back I would say this:

If you re changing your gender, you are not like me.

If you are suffering from gender dysphoria then if you are correctly diagnosed you are not like me.

If your greatest problem is social acceptance as who you are, you are not like me.

If you think that crossdresser- transsexual is a natural progression you are not like me.

If you have the need to re-name normal as in "cis" -gendered you are not like me.

If you would have taken the red pill that would have instantaneously transformed you into a perfect girl you are not like me.

And if you feel the victim of your own life circumstances you are not like me.

If I tell you some truths about what you project in your writing and you get offended well, so f*cking what!

I am not pissed off. I think though that a lot of nonsense that is being debated here distracts from the real issues and topics that should be discussed and debated by those that really mean it.

[Ann Louise]

Kathryn,

Should someone, you perhaps, post for the rest of us what those "real issues and topics that should be discussed and debated" here are? I do recall reading some general guidelines posted by the mods regarding what and for whom each particular forum was intended for. Is there a supplementary source of information I can find somewhere else wherein the issues and topics that you deem the "truth" appropriate to these forums is located?

If my particular "truths" that I have offered here have offended anyone, I regret that, and I DO give a f*ck that I have offended you, because by my thinking my "truth" is not necessarily your "truth" or anyone else's "truth," either, whether if be subjective, objective, relative or an absolute "truth."

)0( Ann )0(

[mary something]

In my opinion it is the next stage of gender dysphoria Lea, but I doubt it will be a popular one around here. Matter of fact it's the kind of opinion that will trigger the very response you wrote of in your first three sentences.

All of our lives we live without one very essential truth. We are female. We are blind and nameless and all we know is that we want something but we can't ever have it. The more impossible transition feels the worse the dysphoria. We tell ourselves a million horrible things to ourselves to keep from transitioning, to keep from owning the fact that we are women. We scar ourselves terribly.

Then we transition. We get therapy. When we look in the mirror we see more and more female and less and less man until one day we just see female. When people talk to us they only hear female.

At the point that we know it's impossible for all of those things to be true, all those things we told ourselves to keep the urge to transition in check, when we know they aren't true we feel wonderful relief and we say I don't have gender dysphoria anymore.

And that's true, but only in a sense. But we have scars. Lots of them and they've been inflicted by someone who knows all of our weaknesses and vunlnerabilities, ourselves.

Then when confronted by someone who reminds us of where those scars are, whose very words or image rubs salt into those scars we feel pain.

Hurt people hurt other people.

We get angry and indignant, because a lifetime of repression takes healing, and until we recognize and understand that the enemy was always ourselves we externalize it.

Just like we did with gender dysphoria before, when we felt like it was something besides us and it would go away one day.

We externalize these new pains that we feel, straight onto whoever happened to be "guilty" of the transgression. Maybe someone's face wasn't feminine enough, that's hardly their fault, no one has any control over that.

We're still doing the same things we've always done, just calling it something else and the fingers are pointing outward instead of inward and now the perspective looks different because we are in a different place.

Or does anyone else feel like the emporer is naked also?

edit- Let me put it this way, can we agree that gender dysphoria is repressing ourselves by telling ourselves what we are NOT. We are not women, we are not TS, etc.
that is the only way to avoid transitioning. Once you know that you have to transition because you are TS then a lot of the gender dysphoria goes away as long as you know transition is possible.

The question is when do we stop defining ourselves by what we AREN'T, and find a way to establish our identity for what we ARE?

I think one of those paths can include personal happiness as a goal and one makes it really tough.

[Badtranny]

Well some of us aren't angry at all.

I don't respond here out of anger, I respond out of concern for someone who may have real questions about a real transition.

The community may be filled with those that are easily offended but I'm certainly not one of them.

[Angela Campbell]

I agree with Melissa's sentiments. I see at times comments that make me wonder if someone may be making a choice or decision not based on good information or even on hopes rather than experiences and research. No I do not claim to know everything, I know little to nothing, but it distresses me to think someone may be making a choice based on bad information. I do not have the experience that some on here have, but I do have what I have. I have seen what I have seen in others as well out here in the real world. I think any advice I give here is based on good knowledge, or I wouldn't give it.

If that is taken as rude, mean, or even elitist, I am sorry. I would never intentionally hurt someones feelings, but sometimes people get there feelings hurt simply because you or I disagree with them. And no one likes to be told that their fantasy is not based in reality.

[mary something]

I've always had a really hard time understanding the "real" argument. I suppose some people are transitioning from male - trans but I've always wanted to skip the whole trans step and go from bio male/woman soul - woman. The fact that I had to do the trans label kept me from wanting to transition for a long time because I didn't want to be a transsexual. If someone implies that I'm not trans it's really no problem for me and because of internalized transphobia I suppose it doesn't bother me in the least. I'm sorry if that's offensive but I'm not the only person who's said a version of "who in the world would chose this!"

I never wanted to be trans. I could care less about my rank in the tranny dungeon. I don't live my life there and keep it at arms reach on purpose.

I'm just a woman. I live my life like a woman. I'm a mother, when I come in the door the concerns of 4 other people go through my mind before considering myself. I read guys posts about their relationships with their wives and want to slap them upside the head for being dense. Women agree with me.

When my ex wife left, she said she didn't want to be in a relationship with another woman PRESENT TENSE, not future. I hadn't had any physical changes or even started hrt yet.

I'm not transitioning to become a tranny, good luck with that! I'll be the lady behind you in the supermarket that you never have a clue about.

[Angela Campbell]

Being a transsexual is like being a Vampire. Some think it is cool, but no one in their right mind would ever really want this curse if they knew what it is like.

[LeaP]

The point is that we are not any more angry or easily offended than anyone else, that when people DO get put out it's because things are being incorrectly attributed to us, often adamantly. That's the majority of situations, represented by my first analogy. Often when they are refuted, they take it even further and take the refutation as an angry response. It's usually not.

[mary something]

Lea- you don't think some trans are a little more angry than women? Have you socialized as a woman with other women and not transwomen enough to see the difference? I belong to another forum that is predominately female and the tenor and tone is quite different. Try it yourself and see what you think, could make for an interesting thread

[Angela Campbell]

Well just for the record.....I am quite sensitive and easily offended so all you mean old trannies better be nice to me!!

Or I'm going home!

[LeaP]

LOL! I've socialized enough to know that different dynamics are in play when women (trans or not) socialize with other women versus what happens when women (trans or not) "socialize" with men - as we have going on here. Apples and oranges.

[Marleena]

Angela... you forgot your ball.:)

[Badtranny]

I never use the word 'real' in the sense of a 'real transsexual' because I'm not qualified to make that kind of diagnosis and mostly I just don't give a damn. In this case, as in most cases, I used that word to describe a transition because there is indeed a "real transition" just like there are "real breast implants". There are a lot of folks on here who may be TS/TG/CD whatever who have convinced themselves that they are transitioning because they are out to six people and they go out dressed "all the time". That is not a real transition. It is something, but it sure isn't what any transitioner I know would recognize as anything familiar.

Transition is a rocky row to hoe and the girls that are doing it deserve our support and respect. These are the people I care about. I can't relate to anyone else.

[Angela Campbell]

Angela... you forgot your ball.:)

No I just don't want them......

[LeaP]

... There are a lot of folks on here who may be TS/TG/CD whatever who have convinced themselves that they are transitioning because they are out to six people and they go out dressed "all the time". That is not a real transition. It is something, but it sure isn't what any transitioner I know would recognize as anything familiar.

Transition is a rocky row to hoe and the girls that are doing it deserve our support and respect. These are the people I care about. I can't relate to anyone else.

Sounds reasonable to me. While I use the phrase "in transition" on occasion, I prefer to refer to my intent to transition. Hormones (especially), electro, coming out, etc. - even activities like HR planning at work - are far more than nothing, but as far as I'm concerned, the rubber meets the road with (FT) social transition. Everything leading up to that is directional and intentional. It can only truly be viewed as "in transition" retrospectively.

This is like getting taller as you grow up. If you were to describe yourself as "growing" at age 15 and did indeed continue to grow, you would have been correct. If you had stopped growing at that point, you would not have been correct. No-one really knows who will transition, including the "transitioner," who may be derailed by any number of things. We may grant the courtesy of treating those who declare intent as being in transition, but it is little more than that.

To the topic, Misty, how you regard those "in transition," meaning engaging in transition-related activities before social transition, is an example of something that is taken as an indication that you are affronted, when, in fact, you are not. I have seen you really object to people describing themselves as transitioned when they are not full-time, however. To the topic, that's because it devalues the meaning and significance of transition and, by extension, your experience by association. (That it makes no logical sense is just a kicker ...)

[mary something]

We may grant the courtesy of treating those who declare intent as being in transition, but it is little more than that.


I think the greatest gift we can give ourselves is radical honesty about ourselves. Realize that the only enemy you've ever really had to deal with was yourself. Realize that the GD that you felt (or if you're the odd duck that never had it) was completely YOU. Any of the negative feelings about being yourself, YOU made those. They were made in reaction to the world around us, all of it's bigotries and mindless hatreds, those feelings were a REACTION to them and were caused by YOU. Own it and learn from it because the only person you're ever gonna have any control over in this life is YOU. You can tell yourself that you can "grant" something to someone else but let me assure you that the only people who will crave that "prize" :brolleyes: is not someone you're gonna like very much.

It's difficult to do because it is so much easier to blame. It is easy to be a victim. Sympathy from others is nice but feeling sorry for yourself is divine!

The constant companion of sympathy is seeking approval from others. This is the exact opposite of radical self honesty and leads to a lifetime of a special hell of your own making. It leaves someone constantly looking for the next gust of wind to fill their sails, but it also leaves them rudderless, directionless, and completely dependent upon others for a sense of place and self-worth. That is why a hierarchy is so attractive to this person. Nevermind the fact that they cast out to sea on a journey to THEIR destination, they're just so glad to have some wind in their sales so they don't have to do the hard work of rowing anymore that they will willingly sell out their own identity for a momentary comfort.

To me this is an extreme example of self-hate, but typically it is projected onto others and can be discerned by statements where they tell someone else what they were meaning for example. To the untrained eye it appears to be a (perhaps) extra serving of self confidence was given to that person by the maker. They may appear to be condescending to actually think they can know someone else's thoughts better than their own but really it's subservience, to anyone except themselves. To someone who has shared the same struggles it is simply seen for exactly what it is - an empty soul looking for approval from someone higher up the hierarchy than themselves because they decided someone else was better at solving their problems than they were.

Another way of spotting this person is by the fact that if threatened they tend to attack others in the same way they've always denied themselves, negation. These are the people who are always telling you that you aren't something. "You aren't good enough" , "You aren't pretty enough", "Your not smart enough", etc. They learned this at an early age and used it on themselves until what little bit of spark was in them was extinguished and then looked to others to applaud their handiwork. When your only tool is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail, and this type of person would rather hammer every window into place than to simply open their eyes and OWN the only thing they will ever be able to truly possess, and that is of course themselves. The problem of course is that they have no idea how to do it by this point. They have gotten so off course of where they should be at this time that most likely they are hopelessly lost.

Although they are lost they would never admit it, instead they will try to regain their bearings the only way they've ever tried to help themselves. Let someone else do it. Although that is not a very good strategy at this point because the only people who don't feel threatening to them are people just like themselves. What are we left with? The blind leading the blind and cursing the darkness.

[Marleena]

I have to admit to becoming sensitive to some fantasy related posts about hormones and using them for the wrong reasons eg. to grow boobs and look more girlie. HRT was meant for TS people who are experiencing GD and have to jump through hoops to get them for the right reasons. If one took the time to read about them they'd find they aren't a magic potion and are dangerous. Most TS women get BA's and surgeries anyways..

I understand Anne's frustration too. I'm cool with it means to me that they think you're flawed or just tolerable but they accept you. It's like calling somebody racist about black or gay people and they defend themselves by saying "but I have gay or black friends". It seems patronizing.

I can say a lot of the issues here can be avoided if people would just take a few minutes to research what being transsexual is really like from credible sources. A lot of it just stems from ignorance.

As for other TS members I have no concerns or care how they approach or deal with transition as long as they've done it according to WPATH SOC. I'm still a firm believer in only doing as much as needed to live with your condition because only you live your life. Your endgame may be different than mine and it doesn't matter to me. I try to be as honest as I can that's all.

JMO as always.

[mary something]

Marleena being sensitive to others and caring about the general perception of ourselves is only natural! Being frustrated is only natural! These boards are for support, and that was the intent of my post, to highlight that very real phenomenom that occurs when support becomes uniformity and growth is stifled. I appreciate every person that I have had the pleasure of interacting with on these boards and it doesn't matter to me if their path is different than mine as long as it hurts no one. I appreciate the opinions and comments of everyone; gender variant, crossdressers, TG, TS, GG, etc. I ENJOY relating to others, especially those who are different!

It is only by being able to look beyond ourselves that we can ever truly connect with another person. As far as I can tell that is the reason we all exist, to connect. My post was simply a plea to not allow our fears or natural aspects of human nature to take the "support" out of this forum.

[Marleena]

Sorry Mary, I was responding to the OP mostly.

[Michelle.M]

If you re changing your gender, you are not like me. . . .
*
*
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. . . If I tell you some truths about what you project in your writing and you get offended well, so f*cking what!

I am not pissed off. I think though that a lot of nonsense that is being debated here distracts from the real issues and topics that should be discussed and debated by those that really mean it.

And you wonder why the villagers occasionally try to burn you at the stake.

Has it occurred to you that your transition experience is radically different from that of the majority of people in transition (and especially those who frequent this site)?

While I celebrate the uniqueness of your experience you might consider that it also yields an obstacle to allowing you to relate to others who are wrestling with serious challenges that you simply can’t understand.


Kathryn,

Should someone, you perhaps, post for the rest of us what those "real issues and topics that should be discussed and debated" here are?

Yes, please!


The point is that we are not any more angry or easily offended than anyone else, that when people DO get put out it's because things are being incorrectly attributed to us, often adamantly. That's the majority of situations, represented by my first analogy. Often when they are refuted, they take it even further and take the refutation as an angry response. It's usually not.

I think that’s an astute observation.


Lea- you don't think some trans are a little more angry than women?

I'd say that for some trans women, Yes. Sometimes they’re equally angry, but for different reasons.

Someone once asked me why all (her word) trans women seem to have a chip on their shoulders. I replied that, first, we all don’t, and second, we’re all dealing with a variety of challenges on many fronts. Sometimes it wears on us and we get defensive. In my own experience, I started with less of that (thank God) and overcame what I did have to deal with as I became more comfortable with my transition.

We all don’t progress at the same speed or necessarily by the same route that others do, even though we are generally heading in the same direction.

[LeaP]

I think the greatest gift we can give ourselves is radical honesty about ourselves. Realize that the only enemy you've ever really had to deal with was yourself. Realize that the GD that you felt (or if you're the odd duck that never had it) was completely YOU. Any of the negative feelings about being yourself, YOU made those. They were made in reaction to the world around us, all of it's bigotries and mindless hatreds, those feelings were a REACTION to them and were caused by YOU. Own it and learn from it because the only person you're ever gonna have any control over in this life is YOU. You can tell yourself that you can "grant" something to someone else but let me assure you that the only people who will crave that "prize" :brolleyes: is not someone you're gonna like very much.

...

I agree with the general principles expressed here - honesty, responsibility, reactions and victimization, etc., but think you take too much of an absolutist stance. These aren't just reactions and choices. They are learned, developed, channeled, coerced, reinforced, monitored and controlled, and beaten into us. The issues that result are pretty extreme, ranging to permanent psychological damage and suicide at the extreme. I'm also unwilling to leave the coping behaviors of children in the realm of choice.

That said, for most of us, a point of self-knowledge and (hopefully) responsibility is reached whereby we take whatever we have and are at that point and become 100% accountable for our choices.

I think you made too much of "granting the courtesy." This simply means taking individuals seriously whom you believe serious. It's the extension of trust that enables intimate personal support. Whether or not some craves it is a different issue.

[mary something]

I agree with the general principles expressed here - honesty, responsibility, reactions and victimization, etc., but think you take too much of an absolutist stance. These aren't just reactions and choices. They are learned, developed, channeled, coerced, reinforced, monitored and controlled, and beaten into us. The issues that result are pretty extreme, ranging to permanent psychological damage and suicide at the extreme. I'm also unwilling to leave the coping behaviors of children in the realm of choice.

.

I agree completely however I was specifically talking about transition. Someone should tackle other mental health issues before beginning transition in my opinion, I think I read that you did the same?

the coping behaviors of children is an excellent point. That is what we are fixing. We have to forgive ourselves and whoever harmed us by knowing that everyone is allowed to be imperfect. After we forgive ourselves and our transgressors then we can own who and what we are in it's entirety.

[LeaP]

Sorry for the misunderstanding and yes, I did the same, concentrating almost entirely on co-morbid issues for the first 6 months or more of therapy. I'm glad I did. It not only gave those the focused attention they needed, but made dealing with the sex/gender issue clear and straightforward.



I can say a lot of the issues here can be avoided if people would just take a few minutes to research what being transsexual is really like from credible sources. A lot of it just stems from ignorance.


I'm firmly convinced of one thing - that the only credible sources can be found among those who have transitioned. Everyone else might have partial insights, but they don't know in a way that can help. Nothing replaces the perspective and advice of another TS whose experience is close to your own. Nothing.

[arbon]

I think there is an underlying layer of bitterness in me, a chip on my shoulder - from all of it, from before and during transition.

I am judgmental a lot of times. A lot more then I used to be.

Yesterday my name was finally updated on the company voice mail system, almost 3 years since I made my intention to transition known. A year and a half since I forced the issue by legally changing my name.
Three years to be taken seriously, sort of. Its still unusual for me to be gendered correctly at work.
And thats just one tiny little thing out of the mountain of crap all this has been in my life.

Then I have someone tell me they are transsexual and have been debating on hrt for the last three years. Who always has to tell me what they are wearing, and their most recent shopping adventure letting their girl side out. Its so fun to be one of the girls now! . Or talk about how they would do it if only it were magically easy and there would not be any pain or loss - I just want to tell them **** off already.

When someone tells me how brave or courageous I am, or that they are okay with me, I smile and say thank you, very polite. But inside I don't want to have to be brave or courageous or to need anyones blessing to be myself!! I don't want to have to be patient for everyone else to get their minds around it and accept me. But I'm expected to, and I am patient, and polite, and give people time.

I've had an easy ride, really. What some trans women going through is way way beyond anything I have had to deal with. If their a little short with people, or sensitive, or emotional, or dramatic, or exclusive and judgmental about other gender diverse people, I think its okay.

[mary something]

I'm firmly convinced of one thing - that the only credible sources can be found among those who have transitioned. Everyone else might have partial insights, but they don't know in a way that can help. Nothing replaces the perspective and advice of another TS whose experience is close to your own. Nothing.

I understand your sentiment and see your logic behind it but it does have a flaw. That is the same kind of thinking that got Michael Jordan hired to manage other people. Incredible basketball player, heart of some of the most impressive teams. He was crap at running an organization or managing other people though.

It is easy to confuse mastery of one set of skills as mastery of another.

I think it's much better to assess how well someone handles whatever their current situation is, that would have kept the Knicks from ever hiring Isaiah Thomas. Ok, that is the most masculine reference I will ever make here lol.

Lea, was your gender therapist trans? Mine wasn't and she was incredibly helpful. Its OK to be different of course I just don't think anyone can solve my problems as well as I can. Not because I think I'm smarter, more capable, or anything like that but because I have skin in my game and they don't.

[Kathryn Martin]

And you wonder why the villagers occasionally try to burn you at the stake.

Has it occurred to you that your transition experience is radically different from that of the majority of people in transition (and especially those who frequent this site)?

Oh I don't wonder at all, I know why I am a perfect lovely target for stake burning. You see, I don't believe that the transition experience of most of the people here is radically different from mine. The obstacles and the challenges and the advantages or disadvantages have very little variance. It's how you deal with them that separates the successful transitions from the unsuccessful ones.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about "finding yourself" and "discovering" who you are and such things that all have a self actualization flavor. While these may be comforting and "nice" to have they are also a form of transsexual socialization. If you have some unidentified "feelings" spend a lot of time here and those feelings will eventually identify you as a transsexual. But is this really what being transsexual is about? Is it really that by our peers do we identify who we are. I don't think so.

So that then leaves the question what would be real support for transsexuals coming here. I think some very down to earth, hard nosed practical advice. It is not as if I have not tried to address these issues. And those that count (at least from my perspective) get the message and take away from what I have to say what helps them do what they need to do. As I said transition is not a process it is an instantaneous paradigm or phase shift that happens when your life as pretend man ends and your life as an authentic human being begins. Everything before is preparation, everything after is dealing with the consequences. You are not in transition when you go out with the gurls on a Friday night. You transition when you wake up, piss, shower, dress, eat, sh*t, dream, have sex,work, be sick, caress, be caressed, socialize and love as you, finally.

The reason why people get progressively disenchanted having to deal with those that will not in a million years walk the path we have walked is that they waste time for everyone. For themselves playing at, flirting with images, for those that are on the sharp edge of despair and for every other post op who wants to pay forward.

[Amy A]

So that then leaves the question what would be real support for transsexuals coming here. I think some very down to earth, hard nosed practical advice.

A couple of months ago, I would have been in a much more fence like locale over this whole issue. However, having gone full time a month ago, my eyes are open. I'm just trying to get through this first year, day by day, with the hope that my life will one day be better. I know the grass is greener on the other side, but the NHS haven't built a bridge yet and the river is covered in burning oil.

However, some of the irritation at cis gendered people for sometimes minor infractions can sound a bit cranky sometimes. I understand why; but when you are dealing with any particular 'issue' your are naturally more sensitive to the way others deal with it, and I certainly know how it stings when somone gets your name wrong for the seventh time that day. But perhaps sometimes we need to cut people a bit of slack, as long as they mean well and treat people with kindness and respect.

[LeaP]

I understand your sentiment and see your logic behind it but it does have a flaw.

You are correct and I've seen the results of the Michael Jordan-like situations. That's a matter of choosing well, however.

My gender therapist is not trans. I wanted one who was experienced in gender but not trans. She has nearly 30 years, including a large number of transitions and at all stages of life. Why not trans, given my comments here and elsewhere? Foremost, to take out even the slightest hint at a trans agenda. Second, to separate aspects of personal support from professional advice and therapy.

My therapist is excellent, and I do mean excellent. Not helpful, good, nice that she's knowledgeable, etc. Excellent. Yet despite her experience, even with a considerable empathetic component added in, she hits some odd notes sometimes that clearly come from being non-trans. It's akin to a parent relating to someone else's children. You get it, but it only goes so far. The connection I have to the trans people in my support circle is different. It facilitates advice that is often exactly on the mark, and often instantly. It's hard to substitute advice based on lots of brutal, direct experience. Moreover, they have experienced not only being trans, but the collision with the rest of the world - something the therapist gets only second hand and filtered.

I been the beneficiary of some of the hard-nosed, practical advice to which Kathryn refers. Much of it is very, very simple. Unfortunately, much of it is excruciatingly difficult to follow, as the most common theme is cutting out my own crap. Reality is a hard mistress.

(I have no idea who Isaiah Thomas is.)

[Kathryn Martin]

....However, having gone full time a month ago, my eyes are open. I'm just trying to get through this first year, day by day, with the hope that my life will one day be better.

You girl, have my undivided attention. Ask whatever question or raise whatever concern you think I might help with, publicly or in private.

[PaulaQ]

It's hard to substitute advice based on lots of brutal, direct experience. Moreover, they have experienced not only being trans, but the collision with the rest of the world - something the therapist gets only second hand and filtered.


That isn't the entirety of it though. The simple truth is that we are simply different than the cis-folks. They will never understand us, because what we experience in life is simply so far removed and alien from anything they experience that they will NEVER completely understand it. They simply can't, in the same way that a color-blind person will never really understand the nuances of certain colors.

My opinion is that we are that different. We think differently. We feel differently in some ways. We get each other in ways they don't get us, and generally, we don't really get them. Although we desperately, desperately want to be like them.

But we just aren't.

[Marleena]

I'm firmly convinced of one thing - that the only credible sources can be found among those who have transitioned. Everyone else might have partial insights, but they don't know in a way that can help. Nothing replaces the perspective and advice of another TS whose experience is close to your own. Nothing.

I agree mostly.

In that quote I was actually referring to other non-TS members of the board though that ask questions or comment in this section.

[mary something]

That isn't the entirety of it though. The simple truth is that we are simply different than the cis-folks. They will never understand us, because what we experience in life is simply so far removed and alien from anything they experience that they will NEVER completely understand it. They simply can't, in the same way that a color-blind person will never really understand the nuances of certain colors.

Paula! You have an amazing ability to intuitively see connections I think. You really hit to the core of the matter with this comment.

We are different.

actually to be fair lets use

We are DIFFERENT!!?!

When do we realize this the most? When we are faced with people who look at us like we're mentally ill. Who don't understand why it's important to use our name to give the same amount of respect that they would give to a dog or cat. When people think they have the privilige to let us know that it's acceptable for us to exist to them but would be shocked if we told them it was ok with us that they are who THEY are.

It's easy to recognize it isn't it? Not very hard at all.

But the question is WHY?

That single question and understanding it is the difference between transitioning to a woman and transitioning to become a transsexual.

Some people figure out how to do it but aren't able to communicate it to others and teach them, or maybe their message only falls on a few like-minded ears. Some of the most brilliant professors I had were horrible teachers, one guy in particular made a good sum by patenting an important procedure used in rna replication but he was complete CRAP as a teacher. If it hadn't been for his grad student that actually taught me the material I would have surely failed his class.

What is the fundamental difference between trans and cis people?

They don't live a life of gender dysphoria.

They are given the invisible but ever so important privilige of being able to express their perceived gender without having any dysphoria as a result.

This is so simple yet it colors so many of our observations, thoughts, ideals, and behaviors that it can make transitioning a life or death affair.

But I disagree with Paula on one aspect though. Men and women each are half of the gender binary, we are the entirety of the gender binary in one package. This is true because you can't tell me that a transsexual who is able to build a successful career and life as a man did so flying blind, I simply won't believe it. The fact is that there are lots of women who if they really had to do it they could. I can think of lots of women I know personally if they were stuck in a man's body tomorrow could make it work. It doesn't mean that you were never a woman. If that doubt is felt then it is something else and getting addressed next. This experience damages us and causes scars though.

Our problem is self-hate.

That is why cis people will never understand us. They don't know the experience of denying such an important aspect of your identity because to them sex and gender are synonymous.

Transphobia and gender dysphoria are the same force in different vessels.

The only way to eventually earn the respect of ourselves and be happy is to reach the point where we do not wish we could be anything but ourselves.

It is impossible for someone to be happy when they wish they could change WHAT they are.

[Kathryn Martin]

The simple truth is that we are simply different than the cis-folks. They will never understand us, because what we experience in life is simply so far removed and alien from anything they experience that they will NEVER completely understand it. They simply can't, in the same way that a color-blind person will never really understand the nuances of certain colors.

Paula, I completely disagree with you. The only difference between someone who has no medical condition and the person who does, is that they have a medical condition. There is no mystical dimension, no alieness to being transsexual. Break it down and the difference in experience between someone who is transsexual and someone who is not, is those that are not, do not have this particular birth defect. But women everywhere are quite familiar with having body issues. The only body part that women never have to worry about is having a penis instead of a vagina - having testicles instead of ovaries and a uterus. Why do we need to "other" those that are not us, for what purpose. I was recently called "cis-scum" for the sole purpose to "other" me in a debate involving some very hot button trans political issues. It kind of made me laugh even though it is actually quite sad.

[PaulaQ]

Paula, I completely disagree with you. The only difference between someone who has no medical condition and the person who does, is that they have a medical condition.

That's fine hon, you are allowed to be wrong. :)

Tell that to someone who's bipolar, or schizophrenic, or has any other mental condition that makes reality seem pretty different to them. I feel that while we don't see things that aren't there, going through what we go through makes us different - and I suspect there are physiological differences in our brains as well, at least to some extent.

I base my observation on my own experiences - I've always been lonely as all hell, despite the fact that I have amazing friends. I've always felt alienated. The first time I sat in a room full of trans people - I just instantly felt at ease, and I "got" them in a way that I've never felt with cis people, even my very closest friends - even my wife.

I'm not trying to demean or demonize cis people. Most of us here would give *anything* to be a cis-person of the correct gender. I'm simply observing that I felt like I was probably from another planet until I met other trans folks. I felt this way my entire life - long before I knew that I was trans, or even knew that such a thing was possible.

It's a pretty commonly observed phenomenon amongst trans people. Whether it's "real" or just another symptom of GD is really beside the point. It feels real to a great many of us.

Trying to dig further into this is more or less of a philosophical debate at this point. There is no logic analyzer for the brain to go "whoa! that's different". At least not for something as subtle as this.

Oh - I feel I can speak with some authority on this because I'm both trans, and was born with a handicap - so I have a medical condition. (A really rare one too.) It doesn't make me feel alien, though I tried to blame it for that for years. But I never really felt any more comfortable around other handicapped kids either. (I went to special summer camp and stuff.) I mean, I could deal with them, and I felt as though I should help some of them out - being born without arms as some of my friends were is, well, a real bitch. But I felt apart from them too.

If nothing else, having the wrong hormones pumped into your brain likely does weird crap to it. I'd be very surprised if that wasn't the case, and that alone could well enough explain any perceived differences between the populations in question.

edit: of course they fact that they kill some of us from time to time certainly adds to an "us and them" mentality.

[LeaP]

Mary,

Most of us do wrestle with self-hate. I have. But it is not my problem. Being the wrong sex is my problem.

I am also not both genders in one package. I am gender F in package M. The part that non-trans people can't understand is what it is like to live in such a state. They should be able to understand what we are like at our core though, psychologically. After all, in that respect we are much the same as them. Just about everyone is familiar with the ugly duckling story. The problem is that sort of understanding doesn't seem to extend much beyond ducks and geese.

[mary something]

Lea, it is difficult to recognize self hate in ourselves. It is really hard to perceive a thought of ours is faulty in our own heads. That is why a therapist is so important. That is why journaling is so important.
We have no perspective until we can escape our own frame of reference and witness our thoughts objectively. That is why I write on this forum so much. It helps me understand when I am thinking wrong.

Three questions please?
Is being trans inferior to being cis?
Why did you feel the need to avoid a therapist with a "Trans agenda" when you clearly stated your preference for personal experience as a criteria for evaluating someone's ideas?

If I said I was trying to avoid the cis agenda by choosing a trans therapist what would the response be?

[PaulaQ]

I am also not both genders in one package. I am gender F in package M. The part that non-trans people can't understand is what it is like to live in such a state.

The trouble is that living as gender F in package M creates an incongruity between your view of reality and that of the rest of the world. Most people's view of external reality matches their internal view of it, and maps well onto that of others. Sure, their reactions to it are wildly different - but mostly they agree on the basic facts of what they observe.

With our gender, internally we know that we are a different gender than our exterior would suggest. This is a pretty fundamental disconnect between our view of reality, and everyone else's. It's hard for them to understand, hell, it's hard for a lot of us to understand - if I have a penis, I HAVE to be a boy, right? I mean - I can see it! So why do I feel like a girl?

In our case, the readily observable physical evidence, what we call "reality" is just wrong. Or at least our belief that it's wrong is incredibly strong. And given that the only treatment for our condition happens with physical medicine, rather than psychological treatments, I think the evidence is good that what's in our heads is the reality, despite what the "real world" seems to imply.

This is hard as hell for anyone to understand because situations like this are extremely rare - and are usually attributed to mental illness. Except we aren't mentally ill. It's just the part of us that really decides "boy" or "girl" is housed in such a way that you can't readily observe it, and we don't understand it well enough to see if there are physical difference that would be definitive proof one way or the other.

TLDR: Being trans is a mind ****


Is being trans inferior to being cis?


Well, some of the cis people seem to think it is... :(

[mary something]

Well, some of the cis people seem to think it is... :(

Of course they do! But is that really the problem or is it the fact that we agree with them? Don't you HAVE to agree with them? I mean its easier to change everyone else's mind right?

Cis people are always right? We already agree that its like being color blind right?

So why are you letting their opinions be more important than yours?

We have to learn to fully accept ourselves to transition well. That meanstrusting YOUR feelings more than someone who has no effn clue about the subject!

[LeaP]

Lea, it is difficult to recognize self hate in ourselves. ...

Three questions please?
Is being trans inferior to being cis?
Why did you feel the need to avoid a therapist with a "Trans agenda" when you clearly stated your preference for personal experience as a criteria for evaluating someone's ideas?

If I said I was trying to avoid the cis agenda by choosing a trans therapist what would the response be?

LOL! Difficult to recognize self-hate??? I've spent most of my life immersed in a sea of self-loathing.

Your reason for writing is similar to my own. I write first for myself, secondarily for anyone interested or helped. I've continued to do so, though I've thought about stopping many times.

I'll leave out the subjective words - being trans is not what our physical design intends. The variations are to be expected, however.

I indicated that trans people whose experience is close to mine could best understand and support me. While I can see how you took that into the evaluation of ideas, that's somewhat different. A good therapist conducts a disciplined, differential diagnosis. It's less a matter of ideas than training. Trans allies provide a particularly critical type of support.


The trouble is that living as gender F in package M creates an incongruity between your view of reality and that of the rest of the world.

It does, but if the experience of many post ops is any guide, it resolves. It's testimony to the reality of the identity.

[PaulaQ]

Cis people are always right? We already agree that its like being color blind right?


I think the cis people are the color blind ones though. Not us.

[Kathryn Martin]

I can see it! So why do I feel like a girl?

Being trans is a mind ****

Well, some of the cis people seem to think it is... :(


Of course they do! But is that really the problem or is it the fact that we agree with them? Don't you HAVE to agree with them? I mean its easier to change everyone else's mind right?

Cis people are always right? We already agree that its like being color blind right?

Paula, do you suggest that someone who is bipolar or suffers from schizophrenia somehow has no medical condition and lesser because of it. Are you lesser because of who you are, and what is it exactly that you are?

Has it ever occurred to you that you just might be a woman, that being transsexual is not a mindfu*ck but rather a bodyf*ck since you have a penis where none belongs and lack a vagina where one should be?

Who the hell are cis people, that would actually justify these completely outrageous generalizations. What in fact makes you so different from cis people when you really strip down to the bare bones. Or do you need o justify your existence by the "others" you rely on to define you instead of being your self.



Mary, a therapist who suffered from the very condition she treats you for over and over again treats herself. How creepy is that. How tainted in both content and application. It's like the doctor who treats himself for a serious illness, the lawyer who represents himself except far worse.

[mary something]

Kathryn I didn't say my therapist was trans, that was a hypothetical question to prove a point, but what does it matter?. Why would it be a problem if it were so though? You're transsexual, right? Or were, maybe? I don't know you're really confusing. Can I trust YOUR advice?

You do realize that the therapist treats a patient not themselves? A more accurate analogy would be to say it's like the doctor who treats someone for a disease he has himself right?

So you think if a Dr has diabetes then he/she should be prevented from treating other patients with diabetes?

Do you see why a disease model for transexuality is such an inaccurate way to describe our condition? It is a natural way of being human Kathryn, should we ever forget the many ways to be human?


Lea- how does it sound to you when I say "I chose a trans therapist to avoid the cis agenda" (it's a hypothetical, sorry I should have stated that before)

why does it sound different than "I chose a cis therapist to avoid the trans agenda"?

The only reason why is because somewhere deep inside you feel the trans agenda is inherently worse than the cis agenda. To feel this way means you either don't fully accept yourself as transsexual or that you feel that it was a "choice" or it means that you wish you weren't transsexual.

I got stuck on the third option for a LONG time. That was when I felt the most crippling dysphoria of my life.

Then I realized I couldn't NOT be ME. I AM TRANSSEXUAL.

Can you change anything about yourself that is inherently derived from your nature? How about your taste in foods. Could someone consciously change the fact that they like chocolate for example?

Can someone choose not to be gay?

If your brother was gay and didn't want to go to a therapist with a "gay agenda" what would you tell him? (hypothetical)

[KellyJameson]

It is traumatic to be born but we do not experience it as trauma because we did not know any better but transitioning, which is a form of birth, is done with an awareness we as babies did not have.

Transitioning " Rubs you raw" partly because of this.

Identity conflict is a core symptom of being transsexual and living with this conflict leaves the person fragile to the degree they are separated from their female identity and most importantly HOW they were separated because a large part of the trauma comes out of the "How"

Part of the "how" we do to ourselves for survival as "To get love" from others and in the doing we throw away the ability to love ourselves because you cannot love yourself when you reject your essence and much of this essence is made up of gender as identity.

To some degree fighting for this identity will mean fighting with others to respect it and it is in this fight we find the self respect lost when we did what we needed to do to survive.

Healthy people find love with others as an expression of the healthy relationship they have with themselves because they live without identity conflict, which is an expression of mental health but the transsexual is deprived of this until they start to fight for it by resolving the identity conflict imposed on them through their bodies and than out into the world with this body through transitioning but "(before but after) when full realization dawns on you "I'm a transsexual" and during transition you are in the "birth canal" and at your most fragile".

The misery of gender dysphoria changes dramatically when you go from "suffering this unknown ailment" to "full awareness of what you are suffering from" while still staying a misery. The mind and all that it is moves to a completely different place of being and understanding.

From the very beginning this experience has been about movement toward something and even as a child I felt it as a searching for something without understanding what I was searching for, which was ultimately me as that part that was lost, stolen and rejected for survival as my "known unquestioned natural gender" because of my body

I think the high emotional sensitivity is an expression of this birth process but is expressed differently from person to person.

Being a transsexual means you are born, die are reborn and than eventually die again.

Between the first death and rebirth life can be very difficult.

[PaulaQ]

Paula, do you suggest that someone who is bipolar or suffers from schizophrenia somehow has no medical condition and lesser because of it. Are you lesser because of who you are, and what is it exactly that you are?

No, I suggest only that the peculiar nature of our medical condition, not unlike schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, has an unusual disconnect from what to everyone else is obviously reality. I assert that our view of the world is simply different from theirs in some respects. If nothing else, I've never met a cis person who could even remotely understand what we go through is like.

My belief is that being transsexual is a childhood disorder that is underdiagnosed, and treated largely with contempt and cruelty by the bulk of the medical community. I think this is a travesty. I certainly don't feel that I am less than anyone else for being trans, anymore than I feel less than anyone else because I have always been handicapped. Both conditions put restrictions on my life that are realities - sometimes cruel ones.

I was implying that there are plenty of cis people who see us as a problem, see us as inferior, and would prefer to see us gone.

But it ain't like having a heart attack. I may not know personally what it's like to have heart disease - but it's not very hard to get my mind around:
- a heart attack hurts like a BITCH
- it is life threatening
- successful treatment of it often requires substantial behavioral change on the part of the patient
- that it is generally poor form to congratulate someone who's just been diagnosed with heart disease...


Has it ever occurred to you that you just might be a woman, that being transsexual is not a mindfu*ck but rather a bodyf*ck since you have a penis where none belongs and lack a vagina where one should be?


I am quite certain that I am a woman, and always have been. I think trying to discuss whether it's your mind or body that is at issue is just arguing over semantics. It is the incongruity between the two that is the issue, complicated by cruel treatment from a cis-world that doesn't largely doesn't understand or empathize with us at all.

However, just because I'm a woman, doesn't mean that I've been socialized at one. I fit in pretty well - surprisingly well to me - with "the girls." (i.e. genetic women I know.) However, I'm starting from ground zero at age 50. There will likely be things they know that I never will, and experiences that they have that I'm either not physically capable of, or have missed due to my age. I expect there will always be some differences between us.


What in fact makes you so different from cis people when you really strip down to the bare bones. Or do you need o justify your existence by the "others" you rely on to define you instead of being your self.

Most cis-people don't finally realize in horrendous mental pain and emotional anguish on a rainy February night that they are the wrong gender, that their entire life has been built based on a lie, and that their life as they've known it for 50 years will change to the point of being unrecognizable.

If it hasn't been your experience that trans people just think "kind of differently" then I don't really know what to tell you. I've observed this myself, it's a pretty profound feeling, and I think it's real. I feel alienated from the cis world. I'm hoping to gain enough congruity between my mind and body to live what feels like an authentic life - instead of the terrible living undeath that has been my existence up to now. Whether this is a symptom of GD, an illusion or side-effect of GD, a product of having to hide ourselves from a cruel society that doesn't care, or a real difference in the way we are put together I can't say - and at this point I think it's as much a philosophical matter as it is a scientific matter.

It's a very commonly reported phenomenon amongst trans people - both men and women.

I hope this clarifies my thinking on these matters for you.

[Angela Campbell]

Mary, a therapist who suffered from the very condition she treats you for over and over again treats herself. How creepy is that. How tainted in both content and application. It's like the doctor who treats himself for a serious illness, the lawyer who represents himself except far worse.

So are you saying if a lawyer ever went through a divorce then it would be a poor choice to hire that lawyer to represent me in a divorce case?


My therapist is someone who transitioned from FtoM. The insights have proven invaluable. I think the help I got there has allowed me to do as well as I have so far. I would not change therapists for anything right now. No it is not creepy at all. He understands things in a way many others cannot. He understands in the way that only someone who has experienced this can understand it.

As far as I know this man has never treated himself. In fact I know the psychologist that he went to when he transitioned years ago. She is the one who will eventually write my second letter for SRS.

[mary something]

The whole point of all of this hopefully is to live a better life. Not just to transition, I want to keep improving my life AFTER transition also! I'm not trying to be right or wrong, most of the ideas I write I learned from Kelly or Kathryn or Melissa, Kaitlyn, lots of people who have earned a lot of knowledge and have shared it. I listen intently and try to learn what you guys are saying. I've got a lifetime of being a transsexual to compare their experiences to, don't we all?

You can't tell me the individual path my transition needs to go down but I think we're trying to reach the same place. (actually Kathryn I'm not sure we'd agree it's the same place but it's probably really similar :hugs:)

When I hear someone say something that I recognize as internalized transphobia what should I do? Should I try to help them realize it? It won't go over very well maybe but perhaps I can help someone else with something at least.

It's not that I don't respect the social function of a hierarchy, it's that I don't believe in sacred cows. People who have been transitioning longer than me should be acknowledged for that. I've never seen it as a competition, it's really hard to feel competitive about something like this to me. Real? What the heck is real? Aren't we all real?
Who gets to decide?

Why would someone even want the job of deciding who's real? Sounds terrible to me.

If someone hears me say something that conveys an idea that is harmful to me, my transition, my life after transition, etc. Please let me know! I might challenge your statement but that isn't because I don't believe you, it's because I don't understand you.

If you participate here to help people you can relate to but you hardly ever post, you can't put that on anyone but yourself. I find myself relating to almost everyone I speak to here in some manner or other. If you're blaming me for it then there is a handy solution called a block button. I don't want the responsibility for feeling that you could help someone but choose not to, even if that someone is yourself.

If your idea suggests that there is something wrong with being transsexual then it's best not to voice it to me. I've finally got to the point in my life where I believe that I'm not inherently wrong and I'm going to protect that feeling even at the expense of being rude.

[mary something]

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about "finding yourself" and "discovering" who you are and such things that all have a self actualization flavor. While these may be comforting and "nice" to have they are also a form of transsexual socialization. If you have some unidentified "feelings" spend a lot of time here and those feelings will eventually identify you as a transsexual. But is this really what being transsexual is about? Is it really that by our peers do we identify who we are. I don't think so.

Sorry I missed this post earlier, but I just had to address this. Kathryn, I know you've had a female body much longer than me but honey you need to reread this. Do you think many women would agree with you that we DON'T identify with our friends?

You think someone can catch the trans?

When did you catch the trans?

If you've been around kids very much you'll realize that they choose their friends based on similarities that make them feel bonded. They identify with those friends. Have you ever argued with a teenager and realized that their friends are really that influential for them?

Maybe you didn't really think about this because you were really wanting to get to the next part? I don't think many women would agree with you that friends don't matter for self identification.




The reason why people get progressively disenchanted having to deal with those that will not in a million years walk the path we have walked is that they waste time for everyone. For themselves playing at, flirting with images, for those that are on the sharp edge of despair and for every other post op who wants to pay forward.

that is presuming a lot. You should buy a lottery ticket, pick your own numbers.

It's not personal but when you say something that doesn't vibe with my experiences it's hard for me to follow the conclusion that supposedly inevitably follows. If you think that the association between friends is the problem then you're failing to understand that kids are drawn to their friends for reasons. Heck all of us are.

Do you make friends with completely random people who have nothing in common with you and then become the same? I don't. In that case I'm sorry but nothing follows after that assertion because it might be true for you but it isn't for me. If that is what it means to be trans then I'm definitely not. Funny thing is though is that sometimes I talk to people that are trans and I feel a connection that I've rarely ever felt before with another person.

Probably doesn't mean anything

Is it silly that I posted this? The thing is that I want to learn from you but my dang bs meter goes off too much to know what to listen to. help me out with that please?

[Rianna Humble]

Mary, a therapist who suffered from the very condition she treats you for over and over again treats herself. How creepy is that. How tainted in both content and application. It's like the doctor who treats himself for a serious illness, the lawyer who represents himself except far worse.

I realise that you are playing a game of semantics, but if we believe you here, then you have disqualified yourself from making representations on behalf of transsexuals, which according to your previous writings you do.

[Kathryn Martin]

I don't think many women would agree with you that friends don't matter for self identification.

Funny thing is though is that sometimes I talk to people that are trans and I feel a connection that I've rarely ever felt before with another person.

Mary, I am not sure where you came up with the conclusion that friends don't matter. Quite the contrary in fact. I have looked my entire life for towards my role models because that is how (not who) I wanted to be. Girls and boys grow up, they become women and men and hopefully become their own woman and man. How did you grow up. By the measure of your peers? It is in fact those women that outgrow the standard of their peers that I have looked towards for inspiration.

Rianna, I never play a game of semantics, but that was a nice bit of sophistry on your part. And maybe what you really want to say is shut the f*ck up, Kathryn.

[LeaP]

I realise that you are playing a game of semantics, but if we believe you here, then you have disqualified yourself from making representations on behalf of transsexuals, which according to your previous writings you do.

I believe you have to take Kathryn's comment in the context of my "trans agenda" remark. That is, a trans THERAPIST. She added a twist of her own also, which was the aspect of self-treatment.

[edit] I should clarify my agenda comment a bit more. If you go back and look, what I actually said was that I wanted to avoid even the appearance of an agenda. It is obviously possible or anyone to have an agenda, trans or not. Avoiding the appearance, however, was important because I did not want to feed the impression of enablement. Even so, I had developed a list of therapists who were members of WPATH and I interviewed them before selecting one.

Among the criteria I covered in my interviews were training, therapeutic approach and preferences, experience with both trans and non-trans clients, and their views of the standards of care. When I got to my first session, I asked if she was trans.

[mary something]

there was something that I was struggling with, and apparently needing to project a little and try to flesh last night. Thanks for hanging in there with me everyone.

Lea- thanks for your patience and willingness to help me search for the unseen but felt during a time when certainty is hardest to find for me, you've helped me understand what I was struggling with in the context of words and not simply raw emotions. It's messy stuff for me.

What do you think the key is to resolving oneself of internalized transphobia? That is one of my strong triggers right now, and after reading and looking for the purpose in my writing last night it was helpful to me to see that. I deleted the posts that were simply conversations between my conflictions due to my feelings of physical in betweenness, I was having a much needed talk with myself I think

Kelly- appreciate your post. Awareness for me right now is painful but it's deceptive too. It's difficult to feel changing and unchanging simultaneously at the exact same spot, a very confusing experience until the smoke clears

Rianna- Thanks for pointing out what I was failing to really clarify last night in Kathryn's remark. I want to say that I don't really believe of course that Kathryn isn't what she is, although her style sometimes triggers my defense mechanisms but what I'm really responding to is my own doubts and fears that she can bring to the surface in me. It's not pleasant but growing pains never are.

Kathryn- thanks for all the time and energy that you put into your responses in this thread. You help me in the way a potent medicine does, I have to make sure I only get the correct dosage :) You're perspective also triggers the hell out of me sometimes lol. (The comment that transition takes 24 hours especially) All that really matters is action of course.

If this were depression or anxiety or any number of other issues would you feel the same way about the conflict of interest between therapist and patient Kathryn? How can your comments be taken without perhaps thinking we should just wait on superman to come along? What if you choose a nontrans therapist and unknown to you they've suffered from other conditions that can also be comorbid with the trans experience?

How does your statement not automatically lead to the dismissal of any mental health professional as not being creepy or sick at some level? Is that what you REALLY mean? This is the most confusing thing you've said to me.



From my perspective right now (funny huh? yeah well it's all I got :)) I'm having a hard time distinguishing gender dysphoria and internalized transphobia as not being the exact same force that manifests differently depending on physical sex and perspective. I suppose I'm just hoping that the rollercoaster ends in a sense. Perhaps it's the fact that I tend to externalizes these feelings that to my observations are coming from within to be reflected back as identity details. I think externalizing a conflict of identity like this is safer, but not helpful, probably learned to do that a long time ago.

[LeaP]

Mary,

I can't claim to have entirely eliminated my internalized transphobia. I can still be triggered by others on occasion. I seldom trigger myself anymore, though. So the self loathing quotient is way, way down.

The process of eliminating self-hatred passed through crisis, therapy, clarity, and acceptance. Hormones were the final key to clarity for me. Without them, I knew what I was but I hadn't experienced what I was, not sufficiently, anyway. By this time, my other issues were under control. Clarity and stability facilitate acceptance. Acceptance and a firm grasp of your own reality (for the first time) brings the ability to assert your right to be. The transphobia starts to dissipate when countered by your ability to believe and assert your worth. It is a natural process and progression. And believe me, it is a process. You can't capture this and make it happen simply by understanding. You have to experience it.

This isn't self actualization (using Kathryn's phrase) so much as it is a step-by-step process to strip away things that are preventing your identity rising to the surface. She also expresses concerns about "trans socialization." This is not a phrase that she made up. It is something that has been written about by others. What it means is becoming socialized as trans by the community that surrounds you. There is little risk in this, even if it does happen, to a transsexual. The transsexual will transition and while they may may remain in the trans community a bit longer than may otherwise be the case, eventually they will integrate. The TG is at more serious risk. This is a person who might take themselves too far and too deep for what they really are, perhaps even to the point of transition. Tragedy results…

Part of the danger comes of the same things that benefit us. Conceptual clarity is important to many of us. When we are immersed in terms and ideas that give us a framework for understanding, against which to test ourselves, We can be pulled also into believing things of ourselves that are not true. Support is a two edged sword. I appreciate your comment about helping you with your understanding – helping to give form to your feelings. But I warn you also not to trust the words and the concepts. Everything must be vetted out by hard experience. There is no way to think yourself out of this.

Oh – I almost forgot… Returning to my own topic for a second (!), "internalized transphobia" is one of those phrases that really pisses some people off!

[mary something]

Returning to my own topic for a second (!), "internalized transphobia" is one of those phrases that really pisses some people off!

yes, the best way to learn why it does is to ask them right?

[Rianna Humble]

This conversation has got just about as far away from the original post as it is possible to do. Time for the final whistle.