If people are becoming more accepting...

[Nicole Erin]

Then does "passing" really matter?
Shoot I don't normally "pass" that great but I have few problems. Only from the true asses of society do I hear rude comments and that is pretty rare.

As I become more experienced in this whole "full time" junk, life just gets more normal. "But peoople still know and think things or say stuff when you are not around". Of course. Hasn't stopped me from having friends, getting a job, being invited to things, and even DATING. I date a genetic woman who has zero problems with who I am. I know I know I am delusional. My job, the lady I date, couple ppl I dated a while back, friends, strangers, and family are all pretending to accept me. They are even seen with me in public to further the facade.

But back to "does passing matter?" So with society being accepting of such monsters as us TS, I wonder if such procedures like FFS, breast implants, and maybe SRS will become less of a goal for many TS? I know for me, even if I HAD two dimes to rub together for surgery, it wouldn't change my life anyways.

[PaulaQ]

It matters to me.
1. I hate looking at my face in the mirror each morning - death gazes back at me each day. It is wearying.
2. I hate people knowing "yeah, guy in a dress, weird, but we'll pretend like we don't notice." I'm good at ignoring this stuff - but that doesn't mean I like it, or think it yields me an especially high quality of life.

[Anne Elizabeth]

You know Nicole I fully understand what you are getting at, and I am or will be in the same boat you are as no dimes to rub together. However, I think Personally for myself I have wanted to be a female for so long in my life, that I feel I need to get GCS just to be totally right with myself. I am sure I will be the ugliest one out there but at least I will be out there.

PS the times that I have been out my attitude (so far) is at least I made their day. They had something to take home and laugh about if that is what they did. but at least I made their day. I imagine that as soon as I go full time hopefully within the next few months that attitude will change.

[Rachelakld]

My job often puts me in a city coffee shop that quite a few TG & TS etc have lunch (Auckland K rd)
While some look good, others not so much.
The arrive, treated politely and leave.
Of the rest of the punters, no one mentions it, no one cares in that area, everyone is polite.

My local suburb, there are many CD, TS, TG out hooking, pissing on the sidewalk, abusing the locals who even "look" in their direction.

So accepting depends on the version the public is subjected to

[thechic]

I don't know if people become more accepting but You are probably getting on with life and not caring about what people say or do. so passing every day becomes less important sometimes because it so much of a chore, I know that's the case with me.

[kimdl93]

No, it doesn't matter. Whether we are tolerated, grudgingly accepted or embraced by others...all end up the same, as you said, we go about our lives. Procedures, particularly expensive, invasive procedures may make it easier for some of us to blend in or even pass, but aren't they as much about an individuals need to feel enter about themselves? That's ok too.

[Aprilrain]

Passing for me is internally driven, it has little to do with the outside world. I have always wanted a female body, looking at my guy face in the mirror was depressing and as you say, I did alright but alright wasn't good enough for me. Even with FFS, BA and SRS it's a compromise. I still have to live with a body that has suffered testosterone poisioning.
There will always be a market for TS related surgeries. I can't really imagine being TS and NOT wanting your body to be as congruent as possible. But hey that's just me.

[stefan37]

Now that I am full time and out and about on a daily basis. I don't even think about passing. Sure it would be nice to have it reflected back to me without fail. But reality is a bit different. I go with the flow and am comfortable being myself. I have been joining business networking groups and to date I have been met with only respect and proper pronouns. What they think of me I have no idea. I am not volunteering any information other than who I am and what business services we can offer. I have also joined 2 women business networking groups, however they do not seem to be very active. I will get more involved and set up some meetings. I imagine I will also be treated with the same respect others in the general public afford me. The general public for the most part treats me with the respect I would expect.

[Anne2345]

I want to offer the best presentation possible. I cannot stand looking in the mirror and seeing my dude face staring back at me. Talk about completely depressing, painful, and sickening. So to the extent I am able, I desire to place as much distance between my old dude body and my new, developing chick body that I can. The fewer the physical reminders and markers the better. Would that I could destroy all evidence of my male body I would.

[Kimberly Kael]

There are clearly changes in play already. It used to be clear that passing was a life and death matter for any transsexual. These days for many, perhaps even most, that's no longer the case. Acceptance has become a reasonable goal. What it takes to achieve self-acceptance as well as social integration will likely continue to change. Emphasis on FFS and BA seems to be rooted as much in the societal norms we grew up around as what's actually going on right now, so I don't expect we'll really know the full answer to your question for decades.

... but if you look at the pressure any woman is under in our society to look good, I don't expect interest in cosmetic procedures among trans folk to disappear entirely.

[arbon]

But back to "does passing matter?" So with society being accepting of such monsters as us TS, I wonder if such procedures like FFS, breast implants, and maybe SRS will become less of a goal for many TS? I know for me, even if I HAD two dimes to rub together for surgery, it wouldn't change my life anyways.

I think there is less external pressure for those procedures, and there will continue to be less.

For me having been able to get all the correct gender markers without surgery took a lot of pressure off having to have it. Being able to live openly without a lot of negative consequences in day to day life relieves some of the need for it. Yes I am mis-gendered frequently, but its not like I am being constantly harassed for being who I am. Most of my problems came from people that already knew as male. No matter what I do it would be a slow process of changing their image of me from male to female.

Does not mean I don't want those things, they would improve my quality of life, but life is not unbearable without them either.

[LaurenB]

Me too Arbon. I just don't think all the procedures will make me what my ideal image of myself would be. I think I could live with being a male-bodied woman (MBW?) if most people would just accept that.

[Frances]

There is nothing wrong with passing for a trans person. I know tons of people who do not pass and deal with it. The secret is owning it.

[arbon]

Then again if you look like a guy dressing female jobs can be hard to come by

[LaurenB]

Can't argue that. That's up to time. If more of us just be who we are in public without much drama (and I mean just being our authentic selves, not caricatures of women) then things will start to shift in our direction (i.e. acceptance without struggle). It's the media TS that is our antithesis. The nylon wearing lipstick mascara mini skirt 6 inch heeled girly girl portrayed in the popular media that puts us in the hole. No one pays attention to middle aged women that are just normal. Not to trample on the right to be that way. Go for it if need calls but it's hard in a misogynistic society that objectifies the female body.

[Rogina B]

I was in front of a Tv camera in an interview last night at an HRO hearing in Atlantic Beach Fl. There were 3 of us [Mto F's] and we were interviewed individually. As we were on with a pretty,perky newscaster beside us with the microphone,it made it very obvious that none of us were genetic females..we were as usual,accepted as Trans,and that is good enough.People were respectful.I really doubt that "completely passing" is possible to many that fall outside the normal size range of GG's as there are always astute observers.[nail techs,hair stylists,etc] that can't be fooled. As long as you are viewed as "female" due to presentation[all aspects],etc,I think that is what brings on the respect in today's world. The desire for cosmetic surgery[for anyone] comes from with in,usually,and that is very understandable as most all humans would like to look their best.

[bas1985]

In a hypothetical Star Trek society where the gender marker may be only a letter on the space suit (M or F), changing gender will be easy as a different letter sewn on the breast; women and men will be perfectly "changeable", and maybe also the reproductive system will be not used (Aldous Huxley, for example in Brave New World). Now there should be some compromises... Personally I think that my highest desire is to be gendered and treated as a born-woman, and not because they are simply "tolerant". I know, this is like saying that I want to make truth from a lie, but I think that it is not really a lie, as I feel that there has been some curious mistake during my first years of life (half genetic-half maybe education) that has brought me to this. It is a lie as long as I identify with the old man, but if I drop HIM completely I would like to be treated as if HE never existed, so I will try as best as I can to delete all his legacies...

[LeaP]

I think passing would still be important because the dynamic that underlies social acceptance is different than the instinct that drives our ability to instantly and unconsciously gender others. The drive for the greatest congruence is related to the latter.

[Launa]

The desire for cosmetic surgery[for anyone] comes from with in,usually,and that is very understandable as most all humans would like to look their best.

Yep, in a few years from now I think it will be time for some FFS! Got to look your best going into the golden years. Yee ha

Passing for me? It will never happen.

[Aprilrain]

I think passing would still be important because the dynamic that underlies social acceptance is different than the instinct that drives our ability to instantly and unconsciously gender others. The drive for the greatest congruence is related to the latter.

This is spot on Lea, astute observation. Humans are hardwired to gender other humans instantly. it's a basic instinct stemming from the most primal parts of our brains and its almost entirly visual. A small but significant part is auditory, most voices are distinctly male or female.

It's one thing to be accepted as a transwoman it's quite another to pass as female. even if people know you're trans looking and sounding female REALLY helps with acceptance. That being said if your voice is marginal having a female face will tip the balence in ones favor.

[Rogina B]

I agree with you,April. I think many girls are accepted as transwoman[by the astute observer] and pass as female to many [men especially]when their complete presentation is well honed. That is about as good as it gets.

[linda allen]

What makes you think people are becoming more accepting?

[Sally24]

What makes you think people are becoming more accepting?

From personal experience going out in public the last 7 years I have to agree with the premise.

[Marleena]

@ Linda take a look at the previous posters they are out and about and facing the music.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree that people are more accepting in general...at least in my experience...

I would say that to appear female enough to be correctly gendered every time is a personal thing...its part of the idea of conforming to your own gender.....we change our bodies for reasons that are part of us and not to be accepted in society..

we all know that a meaningful number of people will never accept us...we all know some don't get the conforming surgeries and are perfectly happy conforming only their lives...(id, name, full time and hrt..perhaps get an orchiectomy)

whether passing matters needs to be addressed in context of your whole life...to me if you have the money, you are making a huge mistake to not experience your life being easily gendered correctly and have the right body parts...i transitioned without FFS at first...i know the difference before and after...its a big difference...it made my internal monologue change, which reduced my anxiety and made my life much better...same with srs..nothing to do with whether society accepted me any better or not...

One more less than politically correct point...like it or not, you will be accepted much better if you look female...so even though i found the ffs to be highly helpful to my mindset, it had the added benefit of being more easily accepted..
its almost as if some of my friends saw me, looked at me and i eased their fears...i looked like a woman..and it helped them accept and even understand me(lea's and april's point)...

[Launa]

What makes you think people are becoming more accepting?

When I was in high school nobody was openly gay at all. There was a transgender student that went to my friends high school and she only lasted a week after been beaten every day.

FFW 30 years and my daughters best friend is openly gay with his first date and him coming over to our house a few times to hang out. My daughter has no problem with transgender people and even told me a few months back that there are check boxes on University application forms that say Male, Female, Transgender.

There is still discrimination though, I have just heard last week that one of our CD friends mentioned of an acquaintance of ours that is TS and has transitioned. She has had to take a 500.00 cut in pay. The only reason the boss said was now that you're female I will pay you less just like the rest of the women that work here. If you don't like it then quit, if you make a formal complaint then I will deny anything that I've said and I will find another way to fire you. So times have changed and are still changing but not everybody is changing with them. It will take time.

[Wildside_md]

Bigotry is slowly dying out. 20 years ago a black man dating a white woman could get him killed, but now very few people would even bat an eye at it. Older people still say horrid things about same sex relationships, but the younger generation could care less. Give it another ten years and few people will cay about other peoples sexuality.

[Rianna Humble]

Wildside, this thread is not about sexuality - that was only introduced as a comparison by Launa. This thread is about attitudes towards transsexuals who are in transition or have transitioned.

[bas1985]

yesterday evening my daughter (9) asked me: "dad, why a man cannot marry a man here in Italy? or a woman a woman". And she is not aware of my TS status (openly, but she may have sensed something). I told her that they are debating about it, because usually marriage has been always between a man and a woman, and she replied: "what is the difficulty in this? Why are they wasting so much time?".

So, yes, things are changing. Rianna correctly says that this thread is about "acceptance". Well, regarding to transition I suppose that new generations will simply accept, but in a broader sense. As a "normal" thing. The difference between accepting and tolerating is different.

There is, however, the "internal acceptance", which is another story. I can be truly accepted by others as a woman, but if I still see a man in the mirror I may not accept myself, so FFS, BA, etc, become a necessity for me and not for others. That is a good point.