A definition of gender equality from Berkeley..

[Lucy_Bella]

Just wanted to share a professional definition of TG.. Please notice the very last line of this definition..This is because of the definition its self does not describe Transvestic Disorder .. Compare that to the DSM5 description of Transvestic Disorder.. Please understand this ...This is not a pissing match ,this is not calling anyone out..This is just another discussion thread for people to see the difference between the two ..

Thank you for understanding :D




Transgender
Transgender (sometimes shortened to trans or TG) people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. To understand this, one must understand the difference between biological sex, which is one's body (genitals, chromosomes, ect.), and social gender, which refers to levels of masculinity and femininity. Often, society conflates sex and gender, viewing them as the same thing. But, gender and sex are not the same thing.Transgender people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. For example, a female with a masculine gender identity or who identifies as a man.
An umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers (transvestites), transgenderists, gender queers, and people who identify as neither female nor male and/or as neither a man or as a woman. Transgender is not a sexual orientation;transgender people may have any sexual orientation. It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such..


Transvestic Fetishism

The paraphiliac focus of Transvestic Fetishism involves cross-dressing. Usually the male with Transvestic Fetishism keeps a collection of female clothes that he intermittently uses to cross-dress. While cross dressed, he usually masturbates, imagining himself to be both the male and the female object of his sexual fantasy. This disorder has been described only in heterosexual males.Transvestic Fetishism is to be diagnosed when cross-dressing occurs exclusively during the course of Gender Identity Disorder.

Transvestic phenomena range from occasional solitary wearing of female clothes to extensive involvement in a transvestic subculture. Some males wear a single item of women's apparel (e.g., underwear or hosiery) under their masculine attire. Other males with Transvestic Fetishism dress entirely as females and wear makeup. The degree to which the cross-dressed individual successfully appears to be a female varies, depending on mannerisms, body habitus, and cross-dressing skill.

When not cross-dressed, the male with Transvestic Fetishism is usually unremarkably masculine. Although his basic preference is heterosexual, he tends to have few sexual partners and may have engaged in occasional homosexual acts. An associated feature may be the presence of Sexual Masochism. The disorder typically begins with cross-dressing in childhood or early adolescence. In many cases, the cross-dressing is not done in public until adulthood. The initial experience may involve partial or total cross-dressing; partial cross-dressing often progresses to complete cross-dressing.

A favored article of clothing may become erotic in itself and may be used habitually, first in masturbation and later in intercourse. In some individuals, the motivation for cross-dressing may change over time, temporarily or permanently, with sexual arousal in response to the cross-dressing diminishing or disappearing. In such instances, the cross-dressing becomes an antidote to anxiety or depression or contributes to a sense of peace and calm.

In other individuals, gender dysphoria may emerge, especially under situational stress with or without symptoms of depression. For a small number of individuals, the gender dysphoria becomes a fixed part of the clinical picture and is accompanied by the desire to dress and live permanently as a female and to seek hormonal or surgical reassignment. Individuals with Transvestic Fetishism often seek treatment when gender dysphoria emerges. The subtype with Gender Dysphoria is provided to allow the clinician to note the presence of gender dysphoria as part of Tranvestic Fetishism.

[GaleWarning]

"This disorder has been described only in heterosexual males."

This, for me, is the stand-out sentence in the definition. To me, it indicates that the definition is deficient.

Other's views?

[Lucy_Bella]

Because it would be kinda odd being a gay male thats attracted to a female that you are emulating..The paraphiliac focus of Transvestic Fetishism involves cross-dressing. Usually the male with Transvestic Fetishism keeps a collection of female clothes that he intermittently uses to cross-dress. While cross dressed, he usually masturbates, imagining himself to be both the male and the female object of his sexual fantasy

[AllieSF]

"Transgender
Transgender (sometimes shortened to trans or TG) people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. To understand this, one must understand the difference between biological sex, which is one's body (genitals, chromosomes, ect.), and social gender, which refers to levels of masculinity and femininity. Often, society conflates sex and gender, viewing them as the same thing. But, gender and sex are not the same thing.Transgender people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. For example, a female with a masculine gender identity or who identifies as a man.

An umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers (transvestites), transgenderists, gender queers, and people who identify as neither female nor male and/or as neither a man or as a woman. Transgender is not a sexual orientation;transgender people may have any sexual orientation. It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such.."

I highlighted the part that I like in this definition. It is also the same one used in the intro page to this site (or at least it used to be there because I have not checked lately). It is also one accepted by many and disputed by others. That is, "transgender" is the umbrella term that includes all the others, including crossdressers, transvestites and transsexuals. So, that is why the recent poll on CD versus TG will not give meaningful results because there are so many definitions floating around that thread from members who accept or reject this definition. I really do not care how one labels themselves or not. However, when doing a survey/poll like of our members here, respondents should respond according to whatever definitions the OP establishes, which was not really the case in that other thread.

I do not know where this thread here will go, because even though you are not calling anyone out or want to start a pissing match, the topic itself with the definition is a regular source of many disagreements here, unfortunately. Such is life.

[Beverley Sims]

Too many big words in that for me to understand.
I would a Webster's to decode it.

Looks like a student's assignment paper.

6 'outa, ten. :)

[Zylia]

The line about heterosexual males that Gale also noted is pretty remarkable, but to me it makes an awful lot of sense that you do need to be gynephilic in the first place to develop some form of autogynephilia. Other than that, there's not much in here that hasn't been discussed and confirmed over and over again, but I guess it's something worth repeating.

By the way, here's an excerpt from an interview with Ray Blanchard (http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/heres-how-the-guy-who-wrote-the-manual-on-sex-talks-about-sex) who co-wrote DSM5, specifically the part about paraphiliae. I guess it's relevant for the people who think TF vs. TF as a disorder is a point of discussion:

Motherboard: When does a paraphilia become a disorder?
Blanchard: There are two ways by which a paraphilia could be converted into a paraphilic disorder: the individual is distressed by their desires, or they are acting in a way that is noxious to people. So a pedophile could have a pedophilic disorder if the guy is tortured by the fact that he is a pedophile, or he is perfectly happy with the fact that he is attracted to children, and he is molesting a lot of them.

So if someone cross dresses and they are cool with it, then they don’t have a disorder, correct?
Blanchard: Yes, under my proposal you can now be a happy transvestite, or you can have a transvestic disorder.

[I Am Paula]

Sorry, seems like a long run for a short slide. Nothing here that hasn't been covered again, and again.

[NicoleScott]

Lucy Bella, I don't inderstand this:
Transvestic Fetishism is to be diagnosed when cross-dressing occurs exclusively during the course of Gender Identity Disorder.

Does this mean a person cannot be a fetish crossdresser unless he has GID? I don't get it. What am I missing?

I know that I am aroused by total transformation - makeup, dress, the works - and that it is the reason I do it. I also know that I have a few fetishes, items of female wear that even by themselves can arouse me. Combining them into a complete makeup/dressup session has an additive effect on my excitement.
But I'm just a pretty normal person who always identifies as a male, even when dressed. I just like to crossdress. I don't see any indications of GID. Yet I am surely a fetish crossdresser.
Does what you have quoted just have significance when it's a "problem" and diagnosed as a disorder? Reading Zylia's quotes of Blanchard makes me think I'm just a happy transvestite (and I'm not offended by that).

[Debra Russell]

hummmm...dunno ..I just like "being" a woman - for a while :idontknow:....................Debra

[rachael.davis]

You started this
A definition of gender equality from Berkeley..
Just wanted to share a professional definition of TG..

Is there a cite on this? Whose "professional definition is this? It reads like a sociology or intro psych textbook from the 70's (Goddess did I ever just date myself)

[Lucy_Bella]

[QUOTE=NicoleScott;3374920]Lucy Bella, I don't inderstand this:
Transvestic Fetishism is to be diagnosed when cross-dressing occurs exclusively during the course of Gender Identity Disorder. /QUOTE]
This is part of the reason I brought this up again..The DSM 5 VERSION OF t/f was revised to a version 6 this may answer your question this is up date 12..

[12] There is a need to distinguish different types of transvestism according to the foci of the patient’s erotic interest. Transvestites vary greatly in their overt behavior and in their mental content during sessions of cross-dressing. Some seem quite similar to simple fetishists in their preference for very specific garments and report no conscious thoughts of themselves as female even while dressed in multiple pieces of female attire. Other transvestites, whom Blanchard (1989) has called autogynephiles, are most aroused by the thought or image of themselves as women. As a practical matter, the autogynephilic type seems to have a higher risk of developing gender dysphoria. This was confirmed in a secondary data analysis reported by Blanchard (2009c). The results of that analysis clearly suggested that the addition of the proposed specifiers to the diagnosis of Transvestic Disorder could provide clinically meaningful information as well as data useful for research.

Transvestic Disorder

A. Over a period of at least six months, in a male, recurrent and intense sexual fantasies, sexual urges, or sexual behaviors involving cross‑dressing. [11]

B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Specify if: [12]

[NicoleScott]

Lucy Bella, I appreciate your attempt to clarify my confusion, but cut-and-paste from the psycho-bible didn't help much. The quote still doesn't make sense to me.

[LilSissyStevie]

This seems to be a muddled mess. Blanchard concocted the autogynephilia (AGP) theory in order to distinguish it from Transvestic Fetishism (TF). It's not a sub-category of TF. There is no requirement for an AGP to cross dress and many don't. I'm not even sure that any CDing by an AGP could be considered TF since they are doing it for a different reason.

[Katy120]

Like most clinical studies it paints with a very wide brush. What is missing is the individuality and uniqueness of our community. If you were to conduct a rigorous study of the thousands of people who are members or visitors, let alone the hundreds of thousands of CD across the globe, you would probably find some common threads, but even then there would outliners that simply don't fit into any pigeon-hole. Thanks for sharing your research, but this, like so many other studies, isn't the definitive last word.

[Lucy_Bella]

Nicole,

I will admit the part you pasted was contradicting of the term..That was the first time I've seen that ever said in all of the reports I have read and I believe it was someones personal opinion ( not from the original report )..Now if you like I can post the original report ? In that report it does not say anything like that in fact it differs the two completely .. see below..

Finally, Dr. Blanchard proposes to change the Specifier Options to the diagnosis. The current Transvestic Fetishism diagnosis has a single specifier, “With Gender Dysphoria: if the person has persistent discomfort with gender role or identity.”7 Blanchard’s proposal would replace this with a specifier of “Autogynephilia (Sexually Aroused by Thought or Image of Self as Female).”

What has happened Nicole is Dr. Blanchard changed this diagnose to "Autogynephilia" ( considered a mental disorder ) ..Now DSM 6 proposes the need to expand that criteria because of the fetish dressers who do not have the "thought of being a woman" as well as other fetish dressing issues..

[robindee36]

Wow, do we have way to much free time, and research funding, on our hands. This is an astounding analysis but I can not relate to it let alone understand it in total. With you on this one Beverly.

Much more easily put, some of us like to dress as a woman and enjoy the company of others who are like this. In drab we do not have an attraction to men, as such. Dressed, men may or may not hold appeal ;)

Heck of a lot easier to understand for this brain.

Hugs, Robin

[NicoleScott]

Lucy Bella, again, thanks for replying. Your second paragraph makes sense. It's surprising to me that "with gender dysphoria" was ever a specifier to TF. I'm thinking that they are very different, and that a TF would be unlikely to have GD and vice versa. Regardng autogynephilia, I never think of myself as female, but I am aroused by the image (in the mirror, photos, etc.). So "thought or image" is pretty broad but quite different.
It seems to me that a TF is one who wears the objects that arouse. Neither GD nor AGP need be present. But if all this is relevant only if there is discomfort to the point of disrupting normal life, it's too deep in the weeds for me. I just like to dress up and include items that have that special affect on me.

[Zylia]

Does this mean a person cannot be a fetish crossdresser unless he has GID? I don't get it. What am I missing?

It's actually very easy to explain. Someone misquoted the DSM or it's a misprint. This is what DSM-IV-TR actually says (on page 574, under 302.3 Transvestic Fetishism)

Transvestic Fetishism is not diagnosed when cross-dressing occurs exclusively during the course of Gender Identity Disorder.

Source: my copy of the DSM-IV-TR. That makes much more sense.

[Lucy_Bella]

Thank you Zylia,

For clearing that up.

As I was looking for the original DSM5 it surprised me that Dr. Blanchard originally had placed GID as a criteria for T/F?

[NicoleScott]

Yes, thank you Zylia. Now it makes sense.

[Zylia]

That's actually news to me. In DSM-IV-TR it's not a criteria, it's a specifier. DSM-V has Transvestic Disorder without GID as specifier as far as I know.

Edit: correction, the specifier in DSM-IV-TR is gender dysphoria, not GID.

[Lucy_Bella]

Correct !! But that is in the DSM 5..I can not be sure if this is true so back to Blanchards original reports I will go to find out because I have way tooo much time on my hands,,lol

[donnalee]

A further example of higher education being no proof of intelligence.
The second definition doesn't indicates a train of logical thought, just an opinion of a description, and is inherently worthless.

[suchacutie]

When I read threads like this one I suddenly feel like a butterfly pinned to someone's display. I happen to be rather well adjusted in life whether presenting as a male or as Tina, and I would imagine there are millions of genetic men who feel the same way. I don't feel the need to be diagnosed with anything as I just don't see an issue, and I feel this approach by the " professionals" only leads to increased prejudice on the part of those not personally familiar with our lives.

[Zylia]

If you don't feel the need to be diagnosed with anything as you don't see an issue you're in luck, because that's how the DSM system works nowadays for better or for worse.

[Katey888]

Well, if it's a Berkeley definition it must be right, eh?
I think I fit the TF definition to about 80% - but I'll carry forward Zylia's 'Happy Transvestite' tag - I don't think that's too far from Eddie Izzard's "I'm just a lesbian in a man's body.."
Kx

[NicoleScott]

A further example of higher education being no proof of intelligence.
The second definition doesn't indicates a train of logical thought, just an opinion of a description, and is inherently worthless.

For those who can make the diagnosis, so they can then treat it, and then bill for the treatment, it's not worthless. haha

[Kate Simmons]

Call me a turnip if you want. Just so you pay me and let me go out and have fun en femme. :battingeyelashes::)

[LilSissyStevie]

By the way, here's an excerpt from an interview with Ray Blanchard (http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/heres-how-the-guy-who-wrote-the-manual-on-sex-talks-about-sex) who co-wrote DSM5, specifically the part about paraphiliae.

This has to be my favorite interview with Blanchard because in it he exposes how the idea of paraphilias has no scientific basis.


Blanchard: ... I’m not going to say that there is no gold standard of what sexual behavior’s purpose is.

Motherboard: And what is that?

Blanchard: I would say if one could start from scratch, ignore all the history of removing homosexuality from the DSM, normal sexuality is whatever is related to reproduction.

So Blanchard believes that the "purpose" of sexual activity is "reproduction." Any sexual activity that is not related to or preparatory to reproductive sex, although it may be benign, is abnormal (paraphilic) including homosexuality. That's a moral or religious idea not a scientific one. Darwinism 101 teaches that nature assigns no purpose to what happens. The purpose of sex and which activities are permissible are for the preachers, philosophers and legislators to determine. All we can say scientifically is that, under the right circumstances, sexual activity may result in reproduction and that's why we're still here. The fact that most people occasionally engage in reproductive sex does not mean that all the other sexual activities they engage in that are strictly recreational are somehow "unnatural."

People who experience distress over their "paraphilic" activities have no scientific basis for feeling bad. They need a preacher not a doctor. If their sexual activity involves criminal behavior (pedophilia, bestiality, rape) they need a lawyer because they are not "sick" they're just criminals.

[Zylia]

Semantics. Blanchard could have called it the evolutionary purpose or function and mean the same thing. The evolutionary purpose of sexual behavior IS reproduction, although it has a (evolutionary) social function as well for primates like bonobos and humans.

(By the way, that's why I don't fully agree with Blanchard's statements)

[LilSissyStevie]

Nonsense! There is no evolutionary "purpose" to anything. Purpose and function are not equivalent.

[Zylia]

Semantics:

Full Definition of FUNCTION

1: professional or official position : occupation
2: the action for which a person or thing is specially fitted or used or for which a thing exists : purpose

Source: Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/function)

[LilSissyStevie]

It's not just semantics. Function is how something works, purpose implies intention. It's true that a function of sexual activity is reproduction. It's not true that nature intended for that to be the one and only function of sexual activity. Nature knows nothing about "fetishes." These only exist as ideas in the minds of people. The idea that Nature has a purpose is anthropomorphism. The truth is that nature is not a person and doesn't "care" what you do. Nature didn't wake up one day and decide to evolve the foot so that people could walk - making walking the "purpose" of feet. They work very well for that function, nevertheless. So people who use their feet to kick soccer balls around rather than just for walking are not perverts in the eyes of nature. Nature also doesn't care what you do with your other body parts. You can use them for whatever function you wish. Deciding the purpose of anything is an area that is of concern to philosophers and religions, not science.

[Zylia]

Let me start by saying you're preaching to the choir here about 'purpose in nature' to use an (in)appropriate idiom. I'm not a religious person. I'm Dutch. I like Richard Dawkins. You can try to explain it again and again, but this is not the point I'm trying to make in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is that I think you're reading too much into Blanchard's use of the word 'purpose' in that interview. I don't think he really used the word purpose the way you think he did. He's actually not all that interested in morality if you read the rest of the interview.

[LilSissyStevie]

That's where we will have to disagree. I think that's exactly what he means (paraphilias are "unnatural") because otherwise the whole idea of paraphilias collapses . And Blanchard is a paraphiliaphiliac. Of course, and I'm sure Blanchard would agree, some sexual proclivities are morally objectionable and need to be banned because they involve force and injury to others who do not or can not give their consent. But that's not a concern of science. Science does not have the answers to every problem.

[Zylia]

You're moving the goalposts. Some sexual proclivities are morally objectionable indeed, at least according to some moral codes. That yet again wasn't what I was trying to say. I assume Blanchard has a moral code as well. The idea that Blanchard bases his scientific ideas about paraphilias on a moral code that has yet to be provided in the first place is conjecture.

Paraphilias are unnatural, sexual behaviour for reproduction is natural. That's exactly what Blanchard is trying to say. Sexual behaviour that's natural is normal. Obviously the words normal and unnatural have loads of (negative) connotations as well and yet again invoke morality, so I guess we'd have the same discussion about those.

Again but just in case, I don't necessarily agree with Blanchard's statements.

[thechic]

An I only thought I was TS, Ha

[Aprilrain]

Lucy Bella, I don't inderstand this:
Transvestic Fetishism is to be diagnosed when cross-dressing occurs exclusively during the course of Gender Identity Disorder.

Does this mean a person cannot be a fetish crossdresser unless he has GID? I don't get it. What am I missing?

I agree this is a bit confusing though i dont believe that is what is being said. if you read the beginning of the last paragraph it says,

"In OTHER individuals, gender dysphoria MAY emerge...."

They seem to be making the distinction between your average CDer and those with GD here.

[donnalee]

Too many equivocations tacked onto the original theorem are, using Occam's razor, inherently bankrupt. The whole falls apart when it requires those kitchen sinks be bolted to it to approach what is, at best, a poor approximation of a bad analogue of a questionable reality.
In more direct words, a pile of BS.

[NicoleScott]

April, this was misquoted and has been resolved. See posts #18-20.

Stevie and Zylia's discussion of purpose or function is splitting hairs, disagreeing about definitions. Dumb animals don't know if their sexual activity is for making babies or not. Nature gave them a desire to have sex. And so they do. Lordy, how much sex would humans have if they didn't know that babies could result?

[CONSUELO]

Well the description of Transvestic Fetishism is a pretty broad one and I find that I can fit into it fairly well. Nevertheless I feel that the jury is still out. I once had a discussion with a Dutch woman GP who pointed out that a problem the medical community faces is that there is a self selection amongst the people whom they see. They are almost all people who have an illness and they rarely have a chance to "treat" or examine in detail, large numbers of healthy people. She felt that this tended to skew their understanding of the "health" of the entire population.
Likewise, most psychiatrists and psychologists see TG people who are in some way or other struggling with some aspect of their lives that may involve their cross-dressing. Of all of the people who are members of this site, I wonder what percentage have spent a significant amount of time in counseling. My suspicion is that it is small. Most of us have worked out a life style that more or less accomodates our cross dressing desires and needs and have never sought intensive counseling .So the population available to for Blanchard et al to study in detail is probably small and self selecting and therefore perhaps it is skewed. I wonder how this affects the conclusions and consequently the definitions that are proposed.
I was trained as a scientist and I wonder how the theories and hypotheses of science would be affected if we were only able to observe a small subset of a particular phenomenon. Might this apply to the proper understanding of cross dressing and related phenomena.

[Tracii G]

Considering where the study came from I don't put much stock in it.
Sounds like a bunch of windy BS coming from someone who is paid to write his/her opinion down.
They seem to always include masturbation or BDSM as part of the equation I do neither when dressed.