transitioning in a society that doesn't want you to

[mary something]

I was reading some information about mtf TS women, specifically about the two types that are identified by what age they transition. The early transitioners who typically are androphilic, have strong expressions of true gender before puberty, and tend to transition in their teens or 20's if possible. Also the late transitioners who are typically able to live in a male gender role for a part of their lives, have a career, families sometimes, and tend to transition at an older age although there is some overlap between the two groups.

When comparing the data between the two groups one statistic really took me by surprise. The mean IQ of the early transitioners is 100, meaning it is a representational sample of people with some bright ones, some slightly behind the curve and whatnot. The mean IQ of the late transtioners however is 127.9, quite a bit higher and definitely indicative of SOMETHING going on.

What is your take on this? Most of the people who post on this board are aware of what it means to transition although we are all at different points between where we started and where we want to wind up.

In a recent thread there was a lot of discussion about people who transition who aren't "real" transsexuals and don't manage a good outcome, sometimes we never find out what happened with them.

It seems to me that the IQ differential is simply that the bar to jump over is VERY high for us, and because of a combination of socioeconomic and cultural forces that do not work in our favor (although if you're on the NHS perhaps it is easier than in the states where it is cash only, thanks very much).

Does it make sense with your day-to-day experiences that these "fake transsexuals" is simply social darwinism at work? It's hard to imagine somebody wanting to be a woman who is a man at heart, even if the reasons they give don't quite cut the mustard sometimes.

[Kimberly Kael]

It seems to me that the IQ differential is simply that the bar to jump over is VERY high for us, and because of a combination of socioeconomic and cultural forces that do not work in our favor (although if you're on the NHS perhaps it is easier than in the states where it is cash only, thanks very much).

There's probably some of that at play. Opportunity and ability are contributions to success in many aspects of life, so this is unlikely to be an exception. IQ correlation with parental IQ means these individuals are likely to have socioeconomic advantages growing up. Among other benefits, this means their friends are more likely to be better educated and more accepting than average. There are plenty of exceptions to these generalizations, of course. One other factor that might play into this is confidence. Someone who is used to coming to conclusions on their own terms despite "common wisdom" to the contrary may have a better shot at successfully transitioning.


Does it make sense with your day-to-day experiences that these "fake transsexuals" is simply social darwinism at work? It's hard to imagine somebody wanting to be a woman who is a man at heart, even if the reasons they give don't quite cut the mustard sometimes.

I'm sure there are some who misdirect other issues in their lives into the belief that they might be transsexual. It may well be one way of coping with homosexuality in a hostile environment, or other ways of not fitting in socially ... but I don't doubt that there's a lot of grey area between those with a very clearly female identity and those who are simply misdiagnosed. It's not likely to be a pure black and white "real vs. fake" matter.

[stefan37]

It is a very different era than when i grew up. Not gonna get into a coulda,woulda,shoulda. Had the information been as accessible as it is today, ThIngs might have been much different and i might have transitioned at an earlier age. I might have saved myself and my family a ton of greif. Not buying it has much to do with IQ. It is impossible to know however as i lived as a male for 55 years and built a life that many parts need to be dismantled at a great personal cost.

[Marleena]

The IQ part is interesting but not surprising based on the TS members here.

I can't comment on "fake" transsexuals. I'll leave that up to the gender therapists to decide who is who. I can't understand anybody wanting to be TS if they're not. I'd like to hope the gatekeepers can see through any BS.

I'm not sure what to say as far as people with failed transitions. Perhaps they started out with good intentions but were constrained (like me) with financial issues. Or it could be their RLE was more difficult than they expected and they weren't prepared to lose it all. Or...or...or.. who knows?

I often wonder how TS people managed in the old days before standardized treatments were available.

[Aprilrain]

I often wonder how TS people managed in the old days before standardized treatments were available.

Back then there really were gatekeepers, all men, and they based there decision on who got treatment and who didn't on how passable you were. If you weren't naturally feminine you were screwed.

I have met people who I think are, as far as i can tell, predators. They are sexually attracted to pretty CDs and TSes and so they claim to be TS to gain access, as it were. One individual in particular struck me as not only male but a really sleazy male at that! When anyone would talk about surgery he would make lude and suggestive comments and he would overtly hit on women at our support group social events. We all agreed he was a perv. I don't know if this person is TS or not but I do know that our Endo refused treatment asking for further assessment even though this guy had a referral letter, that is pretty much unheard of around here. Obviously, the Endo was not comfortable prescribing to this individual. According to the individual himself it was not because of physical health related issues. Anyway that's just one example.

I'd say what I've run into more often is people who probably are TS but for whatever reason haven't had that great of an outcome. Usually it has to do with losing too many family and friends. There are a lot of lonely people out there. : (

[Marleena]

Well April that person is beyond creepy and sure sounds like a sexual predator, yikes!

Great point about ending up alone too. I just recently said to another member that if even if I had money to proceed I could end up an old wrinkled tranny dying alone. So my age is a biggie here. I don't have many good options and saying that is where we'll get the "if you're TS you accept losing everything". So I'm just biding my time right now.

What is a failed transition anyways? Is it backing out after RLE, not getting GRS, or stopping any method of transition including HRT? I have thought of leaving here too because I might not ever fit in by giving everything up and doing what's expected of me. I might embarrass the members here.

My only goal was to deal with the GD and at least I have that under control for now. I was warned it might not be enough but just wanted some quality of life.

I do know an ex-member from here that left and is now helping other TS people. She is living a dual gender role to keep her job as a professor at a University. She's doing fine with it but what exactly is she right? Most will say she isn't actually TS. She got that a lot here.

[Angela Campbell]

Marleena, there is no set path for the transsexual. It is not a "by the numbers" thing any more than we as people could ever walk down the same path. It may be a path with similarities but it is never the same one. We can only hope that on here we can find from time to time others who understand some of the similarities.

[Leah Lynn]

It was very different "back then". Today, in a reasonable family, a child can declare their gender preference. I tried at the age of four, in 1955. I recieved one hell of a beating. Then, the information just wasn't available, not to mention that the medical side was far from what it is today; from hrt to surgical practices. If it would have been concievable, I'd have preferred being raised as a girl and transitioning as soon as possible.

Unfortunately, I think the overall difference in IQ's is generational, and little to do with being tg/ts. Just my not so humble opinion.

Leah

[Frances]

The typology thing is a false dichotomy. The trans experience is far more complex than cis-people believe. This kind of stuff stops mattering after transition.

[mary something]

In my opinion only I agree that it is a false dichotomy too. Why does it stop mattering after transition? And please don't say that the dysphoria goes away because you look female. What does the next set of problems look like after physical transition? Are they more of a social set of problems? Do you feel that perhaps they are also related to how we approach transitioning and the perspective we use to consider it successful?

[Frances]

No, I just mean that the why and the how stop mattering. I was interested in the possibility of having an atypical karyotype before surgery. I could not care less now. I have a vulva, what would my karyotype change now? Same with theories about transsexuality. This stuffs matters when a trans person is trying to accept the need for transition or to convince others that transition is required. I am not saying my case is special. All post-ops or post-transitioned people around me have stopped caring about it too, regardless of what they look like.

[stefan37]

I agree with Frances that once one accepts they are transsexual and are actively transitioning what differences does it make why. I know a few that have undergone srs and many only stay in the community to pay forward their experience. They focus shifts to fully integrating and living their life as female. Since i am not able took afford surgeries art this time. I am dealing with what i have concentrating my energy integrating as best as i can. The more i am accepted the more comfortable i have become.

There have been many posts lately theory crafting about the whys and hypothetical situations. I am actively transitioning and get more value discussing real situations and how to handle them. I guess the hard part is our journeys are unique, but we can still receive value from those that have lived through it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I've stopped caring other than as an intellectual exercise or a way to help others..

it's a huge relief... as I mentioned before its a challenge to replace all the obsessing and wondering with a plain old authentic life..

to me the fake transsexual is 90% online forum stuff... very few people will go through everything to live an authentic life...its the need to feel like you are alive that gets you through the hard stuff..

for folks that are transsexual and don't transition , they avoid all those problems, but must learn to live with the terrible feelings and they can only hope they don't get worse... if you think you can control gender feelings over time you will just have to learn the hard way..

I would speculate (how would I know) that some kind of acceptance based therapy might help the person that can't or doesn't transition as a way to provide comfort...
I can say with certainty however that I tried everything...literally everything to get rid of those feelings and I found the more I tried the worse I got(my issues started when I could no longer compartmentalize these feelings)

[Frances]

Acceptance based therapy = awesome idea.

[Sally24]

Mary, you have to realize that groups get filtered by time and experience. Just as people on this forum aren't representative of the average population. We tend to be higher tech persons with more computer experience than the mean. I would guess that the late transitioners have a higher income after working and bearing with these feelings for most of their lives. That would give them the financial ability to try to transition. I don't know if that would account for the possible higher IQs. It's also possible, with the higher suicide rate that we all are aware of, that people with less flexible brains cannot cope and never reach the later ages. Food for thought....

[Badtranny]

Just as in many situations in life; it helps not to be too bright.

[Frances]

I wish there were a like button.

[Marleena]

Lol... guess I don't have to worry about sharpening any tools in my shed.

[stefan37]

I second a like button. I am hardly the brightest bulb.

[mary something]

Acceptance based therapy = awesome idea.
I agree, I've had YEARS of it. The assumption that I'm searching for a reason is a legitimate one on your part but I'm past that. Frances would you agree with me that even if there were a blood test that could tell you if your're transsexual it wouldn't make any difference at all for someone that considers themselves a crossdresser? They wouldn't believe it. I've never known a woman that didn't buy two pregnancy tests when suspecting and they even have something we can't talk about on this forum NOT happening to suspect it.

I'm not talking about acceptance. If anyone has heard a single thing I've been saying then surely to goodness you'll realize that I accept that I am what I am. Needing a test is a sign you DON'T accept it. that is why someone wouldn't believe it anyway. It would be wasted money to even develop a test, cause them some poor fool would take it three or four times, transition, and then when they think they've solved the gender dysphoria and they still aren't happy they would blame the test and want to sue someone. That is why it only gets rid of gender dysphoria, if you measure it as looking female.

Has looking female made you happy? that is what I was asking with these two questions that NOBODY answered except to say get your vulva and shut up cause you're dumb.
What does the next set of problems look like after physical transition? Are they more of a social set of problems? Do you feel that perhaps they are also related to how we approach transitioning and the perspective we use to consider it successful?

the fact that nobody will answer IS an answer.

When are we supposed to start figuring out to be happy with ourselves?

How about we approach it the same way we do transition and wait until we're about half dead from the dysphoria and do it. THAT sounds like a plan for success!

I'm not saying your wrong at all (insert name of postop person here, or Melissa :hugs:) but please somebody HONESTLY answer my question. It's not easy or fun to be honest and open about yourself and allow others to judge you. I do it here and people don't always like it nor do they always like me. I'm not asking for anything I don't do myself.

[Frances]

I use the pronoun "I" in my post and still get accused of talking about others. I did not make assumptions about you and do not think you're dumb.

Maybe I did not understand the OP correctly. I did not see a question, but rather a few statements on different subjects. I'm a late transitioner and have two university degrees, but if I were truly smart, I would have done it when I was androphilic teenager.

The point of my response is that inner debate does not cure gender dyphoria, transition does. As for happiness, transition did not make me happy, but less unhappy. It mainly stopped the incessant inner monologue, the white noise that was constant in my life, even in my sleep. Now, I actually hear people talking to me. As for happiness, I will quote Bod Dylan: "In this life I write songs. I will be happy in the next one." In this life, I overcame gender dysphoria.

[Aprilrain]

Has looking female made you happy?

When are we supposed to start figuring out to be happy?
.

Yes! looking female makes me happy....about the way I look : P Seriously though it does and has done much to eliminate the GD.

No time like the present to start being happy!

[Frances]

Looking female has made my life much easier. We communicate with our gender and most people did not understand me or respond to me correctly before I started looking female. Gender and physicality corresponding goes a long way to having your message heard. The problem now is telling men about my past.

[Badtranny]

There are a slew of new problems after transition, I just prefer them to my old problems.

Instead of always being aware of what I was saying and doing lest someone think I was less than manly, I'm now always aware of what others are saying and doing lest someone think I was a little too manly.

I am extremely fortunate in that I'm a professional with the means to have a few procedures and despite my height, I can still approximate a relatively feminine silhouette. There are those that are not so fortunate and I can't say with certainty that I would have still transitioned if I were among them. I have no kids and no family who really cares one way or the other so the barriers to my transition were almost entirely of my own making.

It occurs to me that there are a million really good reasons to NOT transition. In fact I wouldn't advise it, TS or not.

[Marleena]

@ Mary I didn't see anybody calling you dumb here at all. I think you misread, most of us did attempt to answer your questions and it's made for a good discussion. I'm sure finishing our transition is the goal for all of us but a few won't make it for a variety of reasons. Reaching your goals is the message I see here in order to be at peace with yourself.

[Wildaboutheels]

I have no desire whatsoever to transition, so some may consider my opinion worthless.

I think the TITLE of your thread is probably offensive to some and discouraging to many here who are confused. Especially the Newbies.

Understand that many here may read only titles and never bother to investigate the thread itself.

Since I [along with everyone else here] IS part of Society, You can't speak for what I think.

I care about how other people treat and interact with me and it has been my vast experience that most reasonable folks feel the same way.

[tiffanynjcd24]

I think it is hard in my case to transition into a woman because there are lot of things to consider and other things to worry about like lack of support, lost of employment\family and more important your happiness. For me, i am happy of being a crossdresser and i probably wouldnt of seeing myself transition at this point

[mary something]

I have no desire whatsoever to transition, so some may consider my opinion worthless.

I think the TITLE of your thread is probably offensive to some and discouraging to many here who are confused.


I would be happy to change it if it wasn't true. Are you saying society wants you to transition? I don't that bucket holds water. Is it a truth that we LIKE to hear? Probably not.

I don't think anyone should EVER transition unless they are fully aware of that fact though. Matter of fact that is the very point of my post, the average gap in IQ is precisely what Sally and Kimberly attributed it to, and melissa in another manner of speaking in her post. It takes an extra amount of means to be able to do this, and this group typically has those means.

However I think Melissa made a VERY good point that was more prescient than she meant it at the time when she said


Just as in many situations in life; it helps not to be too bright.

why is that so? I agree that just because you are ABLE to achieve what you desire doesn't mean that you can enjoy it when you get it.

My point is that it takes a different set of skills to be happy than it does to physically transition your body. If you assume that the totality of the cure is to transition your body then if you aren't happy where does that leave you?

It leaves you WITHOUT any body dysphoria. The one driving force that led you to transition your body.

How do you remember how bad it was? How do you combat that feeling that if handled improperly can lead to doubt? Is that why you stay at the forum to remind yourself?

I think these are all valid questions. Just as valid as you folks telling me that once my body has been feminized as much as possible the need to do so will go away.
trust me, I get that, I'm working on it, and I've got some time to spend between now and then to be working on the next challenge.

I really like Stephanie's post though, especially this part

The more i am accepted the more comfortable i have become.


Simply from your posts you seem much happier now than you were last spring Stephanie, does this have anything to do with it?

and Frances, you made an excellent point, I'm horrible at talking in the wrong tense, I type these posts in 3 or 4 minutes and don't have time to edit. Really in the end it doesn't matter because the only "support" in a forum of any kind is what you get out of it. Kathryn made the point the other day that projection is everywhere here, of course it is!

There is nothing more helpful to me than to read my own posts. No one knows how to solve my own problems better but sometimes I can't get out of my own way to see what needs to be done. We are ALL like that. That is the only way to get what you need from doing this (in my opinion). That is why I just let it rip, I need a lot of help.

[Angela Campbell]

Just as in many situations in life; it helps not to be too bright.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then......

To Wildaboutheels:
I cannot understand why it would be offensive. You are an individual not society, yes you are a member of society but you are not society. The name of the thread is very true, society as a whole is not very supportive of transition although there are small parts of it that do it is a small minority. If a newby does not already know this then they need to, and quick.

I also think it is a very good idea to discourage transition.

[stefan37]

If you were asking whether looking female made us happy. You should have asked. You asked about transitioning without society approval. Would looking female make me happy? I am sure it couldn't hurt. I am pretty happy so far with how my transition is proceeding. I get to be who i am. I am not worrying about how people perceive my lack of masculinity. There is also a tremendous aspect of hurt and sadness i may never get over. Overall my experience has been more positive than negative, so yes my quality of life has improved. I feel comfortable being me and that allows me to live in the moment without getting crazy because i can't afford some procedures at this time. It took me 57 years to get here. What are a couple more?

[Rachel Smith]

I use the pronoun "I" in my post and still get accused of talking about others. I did not make assumptions about you and do not think you're dumb.

The point of my response is that inner debate does not cure gender dyphoria, transition does. As for happiness, transition did not make me happy, but less unhappy. It mainly stopped the incessant inner monologue, the white noise that was constant in my life, even in my sleep. Now, I actually hear people talking to me. As for happiness, I will quote Bod Dylan: "In this life I write songs. I will be happy in the next one." In this life, I overcame gender dysphoria.

Frances to me you have hit the nail squarely on the head with the first 4 sentences. The inner monologue and white noise being gone being the biggest ones for me. I have found that I am no longer exhausted and sleeping whenever I could. I told Michelle just last week if I had only know it would make my life this much better........ I am just so freaking happy now and after being sad and depressed for as long as I was I can't get over how simple it all was, not easy but simple.

BTW Dylan has been my favorite artist since the first time I heard him. My Mother used to say you only like him because like you he can't sing either, lol.

[Kimberly Kael]

why is that so? I agree that just because you are ABLE to achieve what you desire doesn't mean that you can enjoy it when you get it.

I can't presume to answer for Melissa, but what I got from her statement mirrors some of my experience: it helps not to over-think transition. You have to get out there and make forward progress by doing, and learn from your mistakes along the way. It's not the kind of thing you can plan in isolation.

[mary something]

If you were asking whether looking female made us happy. You should have asked. You asked about transitioning without society approval. Would looking female make me happy? I am sure it couldn't hurt. I am pretty happy so far with how my transition is proceeding. I get to be who i am. I am not worrying about how people perceive my lack of masculinity.

Stephanie I can only speak for me but that is exactly one of the things I'm processing right now, the fact that my body is changing. I admire your honesty and the fact that you've lost the wait in your transition and are living your life right now as you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Transition allows the possibility of living life in a way that feels authentic to you..

when you do not experience an authentic life, it has the effect of reducing your quality of life..
that's why so many people express their transition experience as one of relief....its one big negative off the board....

..when life events conspire to make transition too difficult or impossible, then the inability to be happy is about those events, not transition..
transition won't help the situation that is causing the unhappiness, if transition will not improve your quality of life, then you don't transition...

I don't know how many more times transitioned women can say it... transition simply does what it's meant to do... it gives you an authentic life...(its not just about femininizing and body changes)...
Although i found transition transcendent, it was not about peace and happiness (or enjoyment)...

Once you gift yourself that authentic life , you do with it what you will... its your life...that's the beauty of it..

[gonegirl]

What Kaitlyn just wrote is one of the best explanations of what transition is that I've ever read.

I would like to add, based on my own transition, that being authentic to oneself and living authentically is simply about participating in your life fully, as yourself, who you really, truly are. It's an incredible experience.

[Kathryn Martin]

Has looking female made you happy?

When are we supposed to start figuring out to be happy with ourselves?

I will answer the question, although it is the wrong question. You assign a value to looking female which if you are female makes no sense. Of course it does make me happy to look female. Do you have any concept how horrendous it is to be born with a body that does not match your experience of who you are. This is central to transsexualism as a condition. What you fail to see Mary, is that looking female is normal, it's what women generally tend to look like. So assigning it some extraordinary value really makes no sense. It is.

How do you figure out to be happy with yourself? I wonder what your vector is on that question. I have no idea. As a striving human being I try to become the best human being I can. Both the results of my striving and my striving itself make me happy. What more can I ask for. It seems to me that "how to be happy with ourselves" requires some external validation for you. Why is that? This is the place where the rubber meets the road when your physical transformation is complete. You are concerned about a social set of problems post transition. My answer to you is this: you will not become a better human being by surgically altering yourself or dressing the part. Those of us who have gone through this here will tell you that transitioning solves one problem not all problems. What few talk about is how you will cope with yourself and your past once you transition. Frances comments gave a glimpse, but you didn't notice.

[mary something]

I noticed but I didn't want to push her anymore. I too can say that I will spend this life dealing with being trans. And I agree with you Kathryn that looking female more than I do will help me feel more normal. Working on it right now and it takes time. You mentioned in another thread some of the real issues that no one talks about, I didn't want to copy and paste you into a conversation you hadn't involved yourself in but would you mind to talk about some of those issues?

Kaitlyn- I understand the transcendent thing, I really do. I changed my life in every way that someone possibly could and stopped trying to be that heteronormative person and that was transcendent by itself even and made me much happier. I agree with April that looking female will also contribute towards my happiness because it will REMOVE something that makes me unhappy. I'm working on it. I feel that I've done a lot of things in a different order than some people do in their transition here. I was not able to hide this from my family. I was riding other peoples couches when I was 18 because of it. I moved to another town and tried the heteronormative thing and it lasted for about 6 or 7 years until I was such a mess I couldn't take it anymore. I changed my entire life around, acknowledged that I can't change who I am, and decided to transition my body.

What are the set of issues that trans people deal with post transition? Is it complete rejection by family? Ok, I've already experienced that, dealt with it, still don't like it, but I'm at a good place about it now. Is it their friends and associates trying to wrap their head around how someone can be one thing and then another thing? I don't have a ton of social friends because it is impossible when dealing with a loved one with a life changing condition like what he has to do so. My friends know that I'm transgender, I don't spend a lot of time talking to them about stuff they don't understand or that puts walls between us, I try to connect over our similarities not our differences. I know LOTS of straight white people in the same boat as me in that regard because of the same issue. Is it learning to put a marriage behind you that failed? Ok, I've done that and rearranged my personal life in the manner that it doesn't conflict with who and what I am.

Is it accepting who and what you are without doubting yourself? I've spent years in therapy and reworked my entire world view to accomodate something that in many people's eyes simply doesn't exist.

[bas1985]

The IQ issue has interested me in the past, I have read it too on some website.

I think that late transitioners score better simply because for them it takes a big deal of flexibility
to simulate a man, when indeed they are a woman.

As in a Computer sense, to simulate a Windows on a Mac (or a Linux on a Windows) you can... but
you need a powerful enough host computer, as the guest will run slower.

Probably those who cannot simulate (and cannot transition) simply revert to drugs, alcohol, or, sadly, suicide.

Or we can distinguish between TS with a right dominant emisphere or left. Probably late transitioners
are usually left dominant, they were able to do some technical things, and approach their transexuality
simulating a man, the "left" brain is model oriented, schematic, logical.

Maybe early transitioners "feel" better the disphoria and do not want to simulate a man, if they feel to
be a woman. They are right dominant.

That may also explain the higher IQ. The IQ measures better analytic skills, mathematical, logic problems,
some things that left dominant people (male or female) are good at.

--

In my opinion so transition is dropping the simulation and maybe realizing how much effort (energy) has been
wasted to simulate something which was not there, a male "virus", a guest operating system to uninstall.

I agree with the "white noise" observation, dropping the facade and starting transitioning has helped me
immensely to quit the inner dialogue, and be perceived as female is helping me to stay quieter, without
any more things to prove, as if I constantly tried to be "the man" (and failed).

[Kaitlyn Michele]

When you fully transition, you no longer deal with being transsexual. You deal with being you.
that's it. that's transcendent... there is nothing else even remotely like it if you are not cisgendered...

when you have transitioned , you don't have to accept anything...there is nothing left to doubt...you just wake up in the morning and live...

I'm not advocating transition ...I'm communicating directly about what it is and what its not in my experience

you are way overanalyzing it (and I know because I did too)..

[mary something]

When you fully transition, you no longer deal with being transsexual. You deal with being you.
that's it. that's transcendent... there is nothing else even remotely like it if you are not cisgendered...


ok, that sounds at first and second reading like a way of expressing self acceptance by the confirmation of feminizing your body making the need to feminize your body go away. Is that fair to say? I mention this because perhaps internally someone doesn't have to deal with being transsexual after transitioning but you are still living in a world that doesn't want people to transition nor typically understand the transsexual experience.

Is it really fair to tell people that all the problems of being trans go away after your body is as feminine as your (their) means can make it?

If you are looking for a partner there is definitely a learning curve for them, that is dealing with being transsexual. If you are looking for a job, you will deal with being transsexual, that is why I worked so hard at establishing a business that I could run while transitioning and support myself during the most vulnerable part of it before I started physically changing my body. Because of the changing trends in digital content delivery I'm not so sure my business will be viable in 5-10 years so I'm planning on getting a specific degree that will allow me to get a job in an industry that is tolerant of transpeople (it will be a few years because there is another priority in my life that trumps that now). If you're sitting at home on Christmas and you're birth family doesn't want anything to do with you because you're trans, well that is my life and I haven't even physically transitioned fully yet but it is definitely a part of dealing with being trans for me. Is it learning to be assertive with people in a manner that doesn't need male privilege to work? I've had a lot of practice at that, there is definitely a skill to it and to me that is part of dealing with being trans.

EDIT- Maybe it's hard to relate this to each other because we started from very different places? If I had been able to do the hetero thing convincingly I would have as long as possible because no on (in my opinion) of sound mind CHOOSES to be trans, however I'm not sure that it is possible to be of sound mind if you're trans and living a life that is completely in denial of what you really are. I was able to handle a handful of years like that because I became a workaholic and focused intensely on specific goals like buying a house, buying a car, etc. when those goals were reached it was like hitting a wall.

bas1985- the IQ issue is because in order for a biological male to transition in our society at a later stage of life it takes a remarkable amount of resources, planning, and attention to detail to recognize the problem, learn what to do, and then make it happen successfully. People who are at least a standard deviation or two above the norm typically are also people who are capable of the three things I listed when the cards are stacked against them. Remember that the simplest definition of intelligence is "the ability to learn or understand things or to deal with new or difficult situations" according to the dictionary.

That is why named the thread how I did.


and be perceived as female is helping me to stay quieter, without
any more things to prove, as if I constantly tried to be "the man" (and failed).
I would imagine anyone would find it impossible to be what they are not, I would like to be the next Picasso but will not feel like a failure because I am not. In my opinion how you deal with that faulty perception of yourself is more important than anything else.

[LeaP]

...The mean IQ of the late transtioners however is 127.9, quite a bit higher and definitely indicative of SOMETHING going on.

What is your take on this? ...

My take is that the advantages of intelligence are highly overrated in some circumstances ...

[mary something]

I completely agree that in some circumstances the type of intelligence measured by stanford-binet can be highly overrated at times because to navigate this life successfully seems to require a LOT of different skills that require more than just what that test measures.

The people I've known with high IQ's aren't necessarily the same people I've known who are good at understanding what their limits and weaknesses are. Many times it seems they build their ego identity around this aspect of themselves that provides a measurable way of finding value in themselves compared to others and so they have plenty of confidence but sometimes are their own worst enemy. I'm picturing John Edwards presidential candidate here, there are plenty of other examples.

Maybe Socrates was onto something when he said "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing". That is probably why he asked so many questions and got some flak for it.

That is why I keep asking. What are the types of problems that transsexuals deal with after physical transition is complete? The answer is always a version of "stop asking questions"

I'm guessing here but I don't think being a woman physically will guarantee any type of happiness,?although if it makes the constant feeling of need to feminize your body go away then that is an important first step, right? Of the very few transcendentally happy people I've met there doesn't seem to be a gender bias. Matter of fact there was a study recently released that determined that the only measurable determiner in someone's happiness is how many people they connect with socially and have relationships with. Of those people the only measurable quality to determine what made them different is that they overwhelmingly held the attitude that they DESERVED to have the company and friendship of others.

It seems to me that being trans makes both of those feelings very hard to come by in a world that doesn't want you to transition. Does that vibe with anyone else's experiences or thoughts or am I on an island here?

[Marleena]

My take is that the advantages of intelligence are highly overrated in some circumstances ...

I find playing dumb has way more advantages.:)

[mary something]

You are not the only woman to feel that way Marleena

[Marleena]

I realized after I posted that I left myself wide open.lol.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Listen to Socrates Mary....its not that after transition you know nothing...its that there is nothing to know...

btw
I'm incredibly high IQ and I've used my intelligence to plan and execute a very successful transition...plus I am probably the most humble person around...my ego is tiny despite my greatness...

[Jorja]

As I have read through this thread, a question keeps rattling through my brain. Why do you think that society does not want to know you? They haven't even met you as yet. You are still hiding behind that closet door. Yes, the door may be open but you are using it as a sheild at this point and only testing the waters.

[LeaP]

I completely agree that in some circumstances the type of intelligence measured by stanford-binet can be highly overrated at times ...

Maybe Socrates was onto something when he said "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing".

...

I'm guessing here but I don't think being a woman physically will guarantee any type of happiness,?...

My IQ comment was said in irony. I.e., what's the value of intelligence in this case if the result is more damage over more of your life? Doesn't come off as terribly bright, does it?

Socrates also said "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." I would say the concept is more subtle than literally knowing nothing.

I'm always a little surprised when happiness comes up as a discussion topic. I don't think in terms of happiness and can't say that I have it as a goal or as an expected outcome.

[Kathryn Martin]

As I have read through this thread, a question keeps rattling through my brain. Why do you think that society does not want to know you? They haven't even met you as yet. You are still hiding behind that closet door. Yes, the door may be open but you are using it as a sheild at this point and only testing the waters.

I think this is an incredibly important point, Jorja.

One of the real issues for people is to believe that pre-transitioning transsexuals are normal. I was not. How can you be normal when everything about how you appear to your world is wrong. People may believe it is normal and we are conditioned to believe it is normal but in fact we are suffering from a condition that is not within the range of normal human biological development. If your brain is sexed female and body is not then the observers of you (that is your entire social environment) communicate with your body only. Believe it or not, you (the part they cannot meet and have not met) are being objectified in the worst way. Do you recognize this from somewhere in our social intercourse in this world.

Once you have fully transitioned including SRS surgery you stop being transsexual. Just like Kaitelyn said you just live. Beginning with this and having a transsexual medical history, post ops say that the real transition begins. If you cannot make peace with your past how can you just live. If you cannot let your transsexuality be a medical history then forever your world will only communicate with the woman behind the open door and eventually pass it by.

Like Kaitelyn I do not advocate transition because it has such limited application a small group of people in this society. It is one thing only, it never solves any of your problems except one. And when it is done it leaves you with every personality trait that belongs to you. People say you can become a woman, I say you can never become a woman, you are born a woman. You can only unlearn conditioned behavior that conditioned you because everyone only communicated with your body instead of you. So the two matters that will get you out of the no mans land is to make peace with your past and de-condition yourself.

[LeaP]

... If your brain is sexed female and body is not then the observers of you (that is your entire social environment) communicate with your body only. Believe it or not, you (the part they cannot meet and have not met) are being objectified in the worst way. ...

This hit me like electricity. What a terrific conceptualization!

Of course, some of us are more easily objectified than others ... But yeah, the concept still applies.

[mary something]

I'm always a little surprised when happiness comes up as a discussion topic. I don't think in terms of happiness and can't say that I have it as a goal or as an expected outcome.

I'm not trying to be mean but you should remember this quote the next time you feel sad. If you applied the same metric to your transition where would you wind up? How about if you applied this type of thinking to any of the goals that your boss wanted you to have at work?

What is more important than trying to be happy? Making lots of money? Looking happy? Is that what people mean when they say they are jealous of women they pass in public dressed the way they are and smiling? Are they simply assuming that happiness comes from looking like that? I'm guessing, help me out here.

What is your goal Lea?


I realized after I posted that I left myself wide open.lol.

I was being nice! You made an excellent point I thought.


Listen to Socrates Mary....its not that after transition you know nothing...its that there is nothing to know...
ok, that is still something to know Kaitlyn, and I'm not surprised you have a high IQ, I've always thought you were really sharp. However finding out that there is nothing to know is still something, of course that still sounds to me that what we found out is that if you feel a strong need to feminize your body and then you do it then the problem is solved, you no longer need to feminize your body. Here we are back again at the fully transitioned woman talking to the group and giving a sad smile when she says all transitioning does is cure the need to be feminine (or make the dysphoria go away).

What is it like to live in a society that marginalizes trans people, especially considering that you went from being perceived as a very smart successful man to transwoman? Was it just satisfying an urge? What have you learned from it? What are the problems and pitfalls after the need has been taken away? Those are the questions that I will admit to being ignorant to and why I think it's best to find out now so I can plan accordingly.


Why do you think that society does not want to know you? They haven't even met you as yet.
well I didn't say that society doesn't want to know me, I said that society doesn't encourage people to transition which I firmly believe. Do you disagree?

How do you know they haven't met me, you don't think I'm a shrinking wallflower do you? ;) For that matter how do I know that society has met you? I'm real enough that my neighbor will let his daughter stay overnight with my daughter at my house even though it has not been a secret for YEARS that at a minimum I'm transgender.

I'm not sure how changing my appearance somewhat does anything about changing who I am. Isn't the point to make the outside match the insides? Did you become someone different when you got some curves?


what's the value of intelligence in this case if the result is more damage over more of your life? Doesn't come off as terribly bright, does it?

Socrates also said "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." I would say the concept is more subtle than literally knowing nothing

Lea I love you for being the brave woman that you are, brave enough to risk criticism even, that is a rare quality.

What is damaging? Do you mean destroying your male life? Isn't that the point of transition?

I think you used a perfect quote in this case, however it takes bravery to seek knowledge and it is evil to give answers in a manner that only proliferates ignorance about what life is like AFTER transition according to that quote.


One of the real issues for people is to believe that pre-transitioning transsexuals are normal. I was not.
I agree :)
:hugs:
seriously though I really do agree, I've said in other posts maybe even in this thread that same sentiment that this is a condition that results in a lot of problems for the person with it socially, my response in the thread detailing what dysphoria is like is not describing someone who is "normal"


If your brain is sexed female and body is not then the observers of you (that is your entire social environment) communicate with your body only.
I dare you to go tell your wife that, let us know what she says. ;)

So a woman with big boobs and a huge butt is saying what exactly Kathryn?

I communicate with much more than my physical appearance. My gestures, manner of speaking, the expressions on my face, word choice, there are SO many ways of communicating besides how you physically look. You know that!


If you cannot make peace with your past how can you just live.
I totally agree!!! You're talking to my future self's past person right now so any advice for what living as a woman with a transsexual history is like? Consider me a forward thinker.


it never solves any of your problems except one. And when it is done it leaves you with every personality trait that belongs to you. People say you can become a woman, I say you can never become a woman, you are born a woman. You can only unlearn conditioned behavior that conditioned you because everyone only communicated with your body instead of you. So the two matters that will get you out of the no mans land is to make peace with your past and de-condition yourself.

I totally agree Kathryn, I am not transitioning to become someone else. I am transitioning because it is the only option I have to pursue the goal of being a happy me. As for the behavior I tend to think of it as changing one's perspective changes one's behavior. I am a completely different person than I was when I was in my early twenties and trying really hard to be "that guy". It was learning to be comfortable acting in a natural manner for me and not worrying about the occasional look or social faux pas that made me MUCH happier and confirmed to me that the rest of the feelings were real, the desire to feminize my body.

So let's talk about making peace with our past, cause we're creating more of it every moment.

Would you agree that living in a society that doesn't encourage transition makes this more challenging?


What an overthink :)

It's ok Nigella, you're just learning proper care and feeding of your beaver right now, it probably does seem that way to you and I can't say I wouldn't feel the same way if I were in your shoes. Cute pic in your post btw!


If you need societies approval to be you, then you will be sorely disappointed.

I agree, matter of fact I think someone should NOT transition if they feel that way because most likely they haven't lost the wait yet!

[Nigella]

What an overthink :)

Who gives a monkey what society thinks. I don't. Society marginalizes many, look at life around you, look at the begger on the street corner, the individual with body piercings or tattoos.

If you need societies approval to be you, then you will be sorely disappointed.

[LeaP]

I'm not trying to be mean but you should remember this quote the next time you feel sad. If you applied the same metric to your transition where would you wind up? How about if you applied this type of thinking to any of the goals that your boss wanted you to have at work?

What is more important than trying to be happy? ...

What is your goal Lea?


My goal is to solve the problem. Or as a former boss put it, priority 1 is to solve the problem, priority 2 is to solve the problem, and priority 3 is to SOLVE THE F****** PROBLEM.

I simply don't think in those terms, Mary. The emphasis throughout my life has been the absence of pain, not the pursuit of happiness. This is a topic on which I've invested some quality therapy time.

I'm well-acquainted with sadness from depression. Even here, the goal was to eliminate the depression, not to achieve bliss. Upbeat moods carry red flags for me (and frankly those who know me well enough) because of bipolar manic episodes.

So what's more important? It's not a matter of ranking choices. See paragraph 1 ...

I'm puzzled by your work question. I work to make a living, not because I enjoy it. I understand that some people love what they do. I'm not one of them.

[Badtranny]

.plus I am probably the most humble person around...

I'm waaaaay more humble than you. In fact I would even say I was the MOST humble by far. ;-)

[mary something]

My goal is to solve the problem. Or as a former boss put it, priority 1 is to solve the problem, priority 2 is to solve the problem, and priority 3 is to SOLVE THE F****** PROBLEM.

I simply don't think in those terms, Mary. The emphasis throughout my life has been the absence of pain, not the pursuit of happiness.

This is important stuff Lea! Tell your therapist that pursuing a happy life has never been your goal. That your goal is to solve the problem and that is to remove pain but that you are not motivated to be happier nor do you see the need. If they are worth their salt they should be able to work with that!

Has it occurred to you that while you're completely rearranging your life with transition you might as well try to make it happier too? I'm not trying to pick on you, that is EXACTLY what I would tell a loved one who said that to me though.

[Kathryn Martin]

Of course, some of us are more easily objectified than others ... But yeah, the concept still applies.

The nature of the objectification may vary. The reality that someone is talking to your body parts is not. Whether someone talks to your boobs, your vagina or your defective body is not a difference in degree just a difference in the object of communication. No matter what, this obscures the subject with whom communication takes place. By the way this is the only answer to TERF attitudes or exclusionary attitudes of anyone based on conditions that are not a choice.

It also in my view reveals why annexing the condition of others to effect a result cannot bring about solutions that are workable.

Mary you said:


I dare you to go tell your wife that, let us know what she says.

as a quip (I took that from the winking smilie). Now, imagine what the factors are that drive marriages and relationships in which one partner is transsexual apart. Then ask yourself if this has any part in it, and how this knowledge can be part of the solution in that discourse. Take the buzzwords like, selfish, self centered, our children, us, marriage, sexual orientation, gay..... etc. and examine them in light of my statement. Maybe instead of talking to an objectified perceived paradigm talking to the person would net a different outcome. Transsexuals are bozos on a bus and everyone thinks they are the driver.

[mary something]

Have you ever really involved yourself deeply in a relationship forum that deals with relationships ending? I have before and the most remarkable thing I observed is that out of thousands of different stories and accounts it is remarkable how similar the experience is between even people who are very different in many other ways.

I think that is true of many more things than only relationships.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Just say it mary...
what do you want??
50 word maximum please...

as for me...I just want to answer your question..
but if you want a real answer, ask your real question

[mary something]

I just want people to be able to talk about their real problems and lives on here. No silly hierarchies or anything that limits being true and authentic. I don't think srs solves every problem, of course it helps body dysphoria. What about how to be a successful transwoman? (less)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thanks!

FWIW....I don't believe srs solves every problem...it solves one problem.
I also want people to be able to talk about their real problems...I have done it in excruciating details over many years...people do it here all the time...who is not being open??? its not me being not open...(double negative alert!)

There is no hierarchy... that is a constructed thing created by people that want to justify their own decisions.....they give power to people to their own detriment.
I just don't get that

The question is sensible, but its hugely open ended and broad..the answer can only be as broad

The way to be a successful transwoman is to understand yourself in such a way that you can give yourself permission and power to plan and execute your best quality of life..every moment and every detail is personal, and highly subject to circumstance and events out of our control..

note I didn't use the word transition, or surgery, or HRT...

...nobody will do this for you...if you transition, you must be prepared to lose a lot and you must be prepared to feel bad about others in your life because they will feel loss ... you must consider your career...you must be realistic about your appearance and all of your transition related goals...be ready for anything..

...if you choose to not pursue transition, surgeries or live 24/7 (this is what you are really getting at isn't it??), you must accept that you will continue to deal with uncertainty and disbelief around your gender...its not fair, but its reality..
you will have to deal with the gender feelings that will only go away if you are living a true and authentic life..

if you do not transition, and you feel your life is true and authentic...I would think that informs your nature....that feeling is your protective bullet proof vest

you may mitigate your gender dysphoria enough to make it...or you may realize over time that you are happy living as a dual gendered person.....if you can't mitigate your gender dysphoria, ultimately you will take more steps to do so or you will suffer a loss of quality of life that will force you take steps anyway...

You cannot negotiate or control whether this happens to you...I say this only from my experience..i am no doctor or therapist, but I have met WAY too many 40-70 yr old transsexuals that tell me the same story (how they tried and tried)...and I have never met a 50-70 year old transsexual that wishes they waited longer...

... nobody here is peeking in anybody's pants...but lots of folks share their views on this aspect of the transsexual experience.....its your call on srs..but its not fair to say "I don't think srs solves every problem"...that's because nobody ever said it did..

you need to explore why you think people say that......or perhaps focus more on the specific statement where this idea is expressed (I realize there are transsexuals that have a stronger view than me...but I can only answer for myself) and address it directly with them...

As always, its just my own opinion based off my own experience
I hope you find my answer interesting and helpful in some way

[LeaP]

Terrific comments: hierarchies constructed by those justifying, no transition vs uncertainty and disbelief, referring the question of what SRS solves, and finally, the inevitability of gender seeking its own natural endpoint.

I also agree with the comment about real and open exchanges. Like you, I have been very open here as have many, many others.

This, though, is the heart of the answer - "The way to be a successful transwoman is to understand yourself in such a way that you can give yourself permission and power to plan and execute your best quality of life..." Doubly important as many disbelieve in the need for such planning.

[Angela Campbell]

I think planning is very important...at least for me, but that is my nature. I always plan and execute. Some may thrive on chaos and chance.

[Kathryn Martin]

I would essentially echo what Kaitelyn said. Hierarchies are constructed but not by virtue of definitions or descriptions but rather in how they are perceived to be used. SRS solves nothing unless you need to have body sex that is congruent with your brain sex. It creates problems if it is used to meet perceived criteria of trans-ness. What people don't seem to understand that recognizing who you are, as in gender variant or transsexual neither creates hierarchies nor does it express anything about the value of the person who is one or the other. That is a complete fiction that often stands in the way of fully appreciating who you are.

And I completely agree with Kaitelyn on her answer to how to be a successful transwoman.

[mary something]

ok, I am firmly committed to transitioning my body to as feminine as possible, where I am at now is due to years of work and life changes to be right here right now, and it wasn't an accident.

What job market do you think is best suited for a transwoman who can't be stealth because of background checks, etc.?

[Kimberly Kael]

What job market do you think is best suited for a transwoman who can't be stealth because of background checks, etc.?

Large companies with a public commitment to equality are always a good place to start. HRC's Equality Index (http://www.hrc.org/campaigns/corporate-equality-index) is no guarantee that a given hiring manager won't be a problem, but at least you know the corporation makes a point of promoting diversity in a tangible fashion.

As for specific industries? Technology seems to be as good a place as any to transition, based on the number of trans women I've met who have done so. Results matter a lot more than conformance to tradition in a business fundamentally based around new ideas. Even when I decided to move on, I wound up with offers from several companies who all knew my pre-transition history.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

whatever you are best at..

if that doesn't work out, what you are good at...go from there, all the way down to whatever is available.