The T word

[Brooklyn]

I’m well aware of the WPATH definition of the umbrella term “transgender” and what it means on this forum. Unfortunately, many people both within and outside of our community do not interpret it the same way. In the press, it has become a substitute for the word “transsexual”, and many people who are TS prefer that term for reasons that I totally understand. So today, none other than the author Helen Boyd told me that we will never agree on what transgender means, and that the media will never use it appropriately. Is that correct? If so, what utility is the word? How can we advocate for our place in society when we can’t loosely define who we are? It seems I spend so much time explaining things to cis-gendered people. Could this confusion ultimately be a positive thing? Can you provide a better way to think about this vocabulary word? :rose:

[AllieSF]

I understand your question and from what I have read here and interpret from a lot of our differing opinions on this topic and labels in general, it will remain a debatable term and may grow or diminish in its use for us and the general public as who we are and what we do becomes better understood by the general public, ourselves and those who study us and try to help us, from clinicians, researchers, pollsters and other professionals.

I personally more than accept for now the umbrella use of the word. To avoid conflict here, I generally try to put in parenthesis after using the word in one of my numerous posts my definition (TG as the umbrella term) to help others to understand where my comment fits in. Maybe in the heated discussions here that would be helpful for others to do as well so that the thread itself stays on topic and not get sidetracked into one of conflicting definitions. However, it will also get a bit tedious reading though those extra words when one has little time nor patience and really wants to get enough information from the thread to write their own response.

Is the confusion positive? Who knows. When there is some sort of disagreement, nice people tend to get hot when they defend their own point of view. However, the ensuing discussion with many differing points of view can also be a great learning opportunity. It may also roll over into the general public, and for me, more importantly to the media whether in reporting about or portraying us in the news and entertainment industries. I know now that several news organizations have specific guidelines for their reporters and writers to use when reposting about us. Some of those guidelines probably need a lot of work and others may be close to what is correct and needed. I see all this as positive for us. It means to me that at least they are trying, which they did not do before, and maybe eventually they will finally get it right. This last comment may be harder to accomplish when within our own community we continue to debate what is right for each one of us.

[Marleena]

Hi Ashley, transgender seems to be our definition. The way I see it the general public can't tell the difference between us MTF's. If we're read in their mind they just see a man in a dress. I rather be called a transgender person than some of the other words used for us.

[mikiSJ]

Gender Politics - Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!

[Marleena]

It's not a dirty word like some seem to think. Tamara took the proper stance in closing threads about arguing about it as far as I'm concerned.

[kimdl93]

I agree with Helen. Humans are notoriously flexible with the use of language. It helps to preface the use of term, like TG, by giving the definition as you are using it. One can even acknowledge that others may choose to use the term somewhat differently. Then the ensuing discussion can focus on your intended meaning rather than decay into a debate of definitions.

[Marleena]

Here is the accepted definition of transgender from a good source for everyone.

TRANSGENDER : Those who transgress rigid societal gender norms, and who present a breaking or blurring of cultural stereotypical gender roles. This includes: Transsexuals, Cross Dressers, Androgynes, Gender Benders, Shape Shifters, and Intersexxed Individuals. The word describes a category and Community, not the individual groups under it's umbrella which are very different from each other. Some Intersexed people do not consider themselves Transgender. Others who are changing roles and gender through surgery identity with it.

[NathalieX66]

Being "T" doesn't necessarily require having an innie, or needing an innie.

Some of my T friends have one, and some of my T friends want one. We are not all the same, but I have no problem with being in the same club as friends in a sisterhood kind of way.

[Rogina B]

Nathalie...GOOD way to put it! When I get asked "what do you consider yourself?" My answer..Transgender. Usually,only those that have some interest or knowledge will go further with the questioning,mostly out of personal curiosity.I answer their questions honestly and with thought.

[Zylia]

Perhaps of relevance: here's GLAAD's Media reference guide (http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender).

Transsexual, transsexualism, etc. are hard words to use properly. If even we cannot come up with foolproof descriptions, I don't expect the media or society at large to do so either.

[Allison_Leslie]

In MY mind.. even before I joined the club, this is how I have interpreted it :

Crossdresser - A Man or Woman who likes to dress in the opposite apparel for their own pleasure
Female Impersonator - A man who impersonates females for show and entertainment yet does so with respect and awe for the fairer sex
Drag queen - A Gay Man who dresses as a female to mock the female species and also to possibly attract males but not always.

TRANS-gender - one who wants to or HAS changed their gender. Broad term
TRANS-sexual - one who is in the process of becoming the opposite sex from their birth sex or has already (very close to Trans-Gender but more specific to those who are in the
interim or post-surgical)

Trans-vestite - SAME as simple Crossdresser as it is used in Psycho to describe Norman Bates. Just someone who dresses in women's clothing and for me this gives a slight higher
nod to one who might also be slightly more serious than the casual crossdresser but has not committed to actual reassignment.

These are the definitions that come to mind for me PERSONALLY and I hold that they are my OPINIONS only as I have understood from our culture for these to be what they are to me.

I.E. I was CD, a simple crossdresser, but now I am TransGender because I am trying to live as a female even if I don't or cannot go through the HRT or surgery. If paid for, would I? YES. But I think any of us would if it wasn't our $80,000 sum odd dollars plus about $200/mo extra for lifelong hormone treatment (rough figures)

----------------

How I feel about the rest of the world?

and what they think?

Look, if they don't understand then they aren't going to and we do not owe anyone an explanation of what exactly it is that we are, unless we SLEEP with them or they are FAMILY and need to know, and that's soul proper to US and nobody else. It's legal to crossdress, thats all they see when I go out fully dressed, and I go do what I need, and I go to the counter or sit in the restaurant, and I go on the bus or walk into the gas station, I get what I need and I leave. THEY CAN THINK WHATEVER THEY WANT TO. I don't have to wake up next to them. I am sweet and kind to everyone I meet. Bad people who make remarks just get a very gentle "Well bless your heart, then.. you have a great day now!" And that INFURIATES them to no end. GOOD. That's how I see it. I know who I am and I am getting what I want from life from now on.

I am not sinning, I am not going to hell why? I am not doing ANYTHING wrong. I don't kill people or steal or harm others. THATS IT. I am a good person and I love all people regardless of what they have to say about me. I just walk away and sometimes if they are particularly nasty I will LAUGH AT THEM TO THEIR FACE ... and then just say my line. "Well Bless your heart!". LOVE THAT.

It's southern for "You're a complete idiot, aren't you?" - WHEN USED AGAINST ENEMIES... Different when used on children... well.. MOST of the time.

[Zylia]

If you use personal definitions, you might as well make up your own words for it. I obviously respect your opinion, but it defeats the purpose of having words.

I don't get the transvestite/cross-dresser thing by the way. Is a transvestite an evolved form of a cross-dresser?

[Tamara Croft]

I don't get the transvestite/cross-dresser thing by the way. Is a transvestite an evolved form of a cross-dresser?No, transvestite is the UK term for crossdresser, although we seem to be adopting the crossdresser definition more recently.

[Beverley Sims]

Ashley,
I find thinking about definitive words a waste of time for me.
"T" for me meant a T Bucket.... that was my friends hot rod... That is a modified car, not a sexual object.

Well, I suppose it is in a way also. :)
Certainly was a "chick" magnet.

[Zylia]

I actually wondered about Alvina's descriptions of cross-dressers and transvestites, not so much the actual difference. I didn't really get what she was trying to say. In the Netherlands, some people claim that there's a significant difference as well, with transvestite (or travestiet) used for the 'sexual' type and cross-dresser for the non-sexual type.

[linda allen]

Language changes over time (think "gay") and the use of particular words changes depending on the country or even by region in a particular country. The word "bum" seems to mean the part of the anatomy that a person sits on in the UK but in the USA it's a person with no job and who generally lives on the street or in the woods.

In the USA, a carbonated beverage is "soda" in parts of the country and "pop" in others.

It's pointless for a small group on a web forum to try to define words when the general public and/or the media is using different words or different definitions of the same word. If you wish to communicate with people, you must use the accepted words and definitions.

[mykell]

before i joined i accepted the fact that i was indeed "gay". standing in front of a mirror dressed like a diva.
after i joined i kept reading and saw the term trans-gendered, a community is all i thought, crossdressers.com, transvestite.com, transgender.com.
crossdresser doesn't even clear spell check. the words are just that to me now. Friends, community, camaraderie, compassion, acceptance, are what is important for me now. labels not so much...
even in the clothes i wear, just as long as i like the way i look and feel while in them...
our time will come, baby steps maybe, but come it will...

[NicoleScott]

I don't often use the term TG and when I do, like Allie, parenthetically define what I mean by it. It's very broad, like the umbrella, and Marleena's description is how I think of it. Alvina's definition of TG is also broad if you consider TEMPORARY gender-changing (crossdressing). Many people who consider themselves TG (NOT the umbrella term) describe themselves as "more than CD, less than TS", dressing to express their internal feminne identity.
To avoid confusion, it would be good if everybody explained what they mean when they use the term TG. But that's pretty impractical. Rather, let's use the term TG as the umbrella term and use another for people with internal feminine identities. Lately I have been trying to follow Reine's lead in avoiding the confusion by using the term Gender-Nonconforming for those whose gender identity doesn't conform to their birth sex, but it hasn't caught on. I hope it does. Otherwise, this will never end.

[Kate Simmons]

I think it will ultimately be a better world when we finally just consider one another as just people. This is how I think of others now for who they are, not what they are.:)

[Brooklyn]

Thanks for the replies and especially for the GLAAD Media Guide, Zylia. At a glance, it generally aligns with the WPATH definitions and our preferred usage in this forum. Helen may be correct, however. Many CDers will not accept the TG label, believing that it refers only to gender identity and not also to gender expression. The mass media and public seem to share the same notion.

Words and labels ARE important to us, especially when it comes to writing laws, rules, news, insurance policies, and in medical practice. For example, someone could pass a law or write a school rule allowing "transgendered individuals" to use restrooms appropriate for their gender expression. But if some "gender-non-conforming people" are excluded or exclude themselves from the umbrella term, that could leave many CDers with a big hydraulic problem! :rose:

[Tina_gm]

Perhaps the hang up on Transgender is what vs. who. Is it part of what we are, or who we are? I personally still do not care at this point. I am transgendered because of how I feel and what I do about it (CDing) Because I am not just a woman trapped in a man's body, but rather a man who has feminine feelings and tendencies and likes to wear female clothing because it helps me to connect, and that they generally tend to feel very comfortable. I still consider myself to be transgendered. It was how it was described to me by a gender specialist. One who said it was an umbrella term for anyone who indulges in cross gender behavior or who has any internal feelings that are cross gender. So basically anyone who CD's occasionally up to TS's. They are all just words and terms. Crossdresser, tranny, Drag queen, transgendered. I still feel the same and do what I do.

[Veronica27]

It was mentioned by Kimdl93 that "humans are notoriously flexible with the use of language". While this is unfortunately true, it is the basis of much of the misunderstanding that takes place when people attempt to communicate with each other. Rather than calling it flexibility, I prefer to think of it as linguistic laziness. The need to interpret the written or spoken word, is both costly and time consuming, but it can be of vital importance in such things as making legal decisions, transacting business and, yes, understanding our unique condition.

Zylia's GLAAD media reference guide clarifies much of the confusion about terminology, but there is one slight discrepancy that forms much of the reason for so many arguments here. It defines gender identity in a very concise way, and then goes on to define gender expression as "the external manifestation of one's gender identity". Where the discrepancy arises is under the definition of transgender where they make the statement "gender identity and/or gender expression differs from the sex they were assigned at birth". There can be no "or" since gender expression by definition is dependent upon gender identity. Transgender, thus can only exist where identity differs from assigned sex. Many here insist that you are transgender if your expression, even occasional, is of a feminine or womanly nature. However, even the definition of crossdresser included by GLAAD recognizes that " Cross-dressers are usually comfortable with the sex they were assigned at birth". In addition, the term transgender is further clarified by saying it "may" include crossdressers. Thus, the use of transgender as an umbrella wrongly includes possibly the largest segment of the overall community.

As a sometimes crossdresser, usually fully closeted, I don't personally care what anyone wants to call me or anyone else. I simply want to see the appropriate language used because the issue goes much farther than my humble wishes. As a community, our "leaders" have been advocating legislative recognition of "rights" which usually embody the word transgender or "trans". Such laws are useless if they do not accurately describe the people to whom they are intended to apply. For example, many businesses have incorporated transgender rights into their employment policies. They are usually thinking in terms of transsexuals and others who identify primarily as other than their assigned birth sex, and wish to express themselves as such. Should such employers be required to permit occasional crossdressers to dress up when they are in the mood, or drag queens to parade around the office in their very flamboyant attire. Such things could be disruptive to business and upsetting to other employees. Female employees, in particular, while being accepting of the transgender women using their facilities, might be disturbed by having people they are used to seeing as men, suddenly using the women's room because the are wearing a dress that day.

Finally, Linda Allen mentioned how the word "gay" is now used. I find this one to be particularly sad, not because of any homophobia, but because that was a beautiful word in the English language that has been rendered useless in its original sense because of this "evolutionary" process we hear so much about. Gay was a very short simple word that nevertheless conveyed a very wide array of emotional expression, that was difficult to capture by any other single word. Alas, it has been expunged from song lyrics and poems to the detriment of true understanding.

Veronica

[mikiSJ]

Perhaps of relevance: here's GLAAD's Media reference guide (http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender).
This is an excellent reference source and with only a couple of definitions I would question, it resolves a lot of definitional issues.

[Katey888]

Here is the accepted definition of transgender from a good source for everyone.

TRANSGENDER : Those who transgress rigid societal gender norms, and who present a breaking or blurring of cultural stereotypical gender roles. This includes: Transsexuals, Cross Dressers, Androgynes, Gender Benders, Shape Shifters, .....

What? Shape Shifters? We're now in the same scientific category as werewolves? How cool is that thought... a werewolf in heels...
(Just trying to inject a little levity... :devil:)

I align with Veronica's comprehensive opinion. But if I only spend 10% of my time CDing (or thinking about it), the rest of my time in male attire, thinking male thoughts and doing male things in an overtly male way, that should not qualify anyone to classify me as TG. Just means I'm a little strange...
As my late father-in-law loved to say: Call me anything you like, just don't call me late for dinner...
Kateyx

[Brooklyn]

Should such employers be required to permit occasional crossdressers to dress up when they are in the mood, or drag queens to parade around the office in their very flamboyant attire.

Since reading this, I keep thinking "Drag Monday" would be the perfect compliment to "Casual Friday". It would be so fun and gay, Veronica!

[Lucy_Bella]

I told myself I would never get involved with another bathroom thread.. But I do feel this is important to say.. Progress has been made for the Trans community and rightfully so but it's only going to take a few out of our own community to ruin that progression..

Until we understand that the umbrella term ( that the media uses ) has a certain spectrum with no" Gender Identity Issues" freely using public restrooms that they probably shouldn't..I am in no way saying these cross dressers ,who rarely leave their homes dressed en femme, are bad people 99.9 % are probably average people who never break any laws..What I am saying is all it will take is .01 % to ruin it for those who truly earned that progression..

[Vickie_CDTV]

I find it amusing that GLAAD, that vast majority of whom of which are not trans people, took it upon themselves to dictate what words can and can't be used and what is and isn't derogatory. What gives them the authority to decide words like "transvestite" are derogatory? I doubt they rounded up a bunch of transvestites, err I mean cross-dressers (note the hypen, must spell it their way), and got an overwhelming consensus about that.

[Zylia]

GLAAD doesn't dictate anything, it's a reference guide for journalists. Journalists are free to ignore it (many choose to ignore GLAAD's stance on Chelsea Manning for instance) and you are free to write your own reference guide for journalists and try to get attention for it. You can also send your suggestions to GLAAD, I think they'd be very interested in your well-sourced argument about why the word transvestite isn't derogatory and it may lead to them improving their guide. I for one am glad that organizations like GLAAD exist and do their best to represent 'us'. I don't see many organizations doing a better job than they do.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

I still don't understand this need/compulsion to categorize ourselves with a word/title/definition. In a way I find it counter productive to being accepted by society writ large. When asked by someone I state that I am who I am a genetic male who prefers to dress in female clothing from time to time. In the end I am a person that is all. The sooner we can accept that we are who we are (definition aside) the sooner we can make strides in being accepted as people.

My two cents

Hugs

Isha

[Rogina B]

LGBTQ...T is for Transgender. That umbrella term HAS to work in order to pass laws and rules,and whatever,that can help us be included as HUMAN BEINGS. Seems to work just fine as a description with more people, than not.

[Marleena]

Okay here's a better link showing the terminology used for those that aren't clear on it.: http://transequality.org/Resources/NCTE_TransTerminology.pdf

[NicoleScott]

I for one am glad that organizations like GLAAD exist and do their best to represent 'us'.

It depends of who "us" is. Nothwithstanding the discrepancy Veronica pointed out, it seems that GLAAD's agenda is to exclude crossdressers from the TG umbrella, and include only those who crossdress (verb) to express their internal feminine gender identity required for inclusion. Most dictionary definitions of TG include crossdressers regardless of motive.
The T in LGBT is a misfit as it is about gender identity/expression and the LGB is about sexual preference.

[Zylia]

Fair enough, they do seem to exclude (fetishistic) cross-dressers who have absolutely no doubts about their (100% male) gender identity from the transgender spectrum in this media reference guide. Either way, 'doing your best' doesn't imply 'being perfect'. I might actually send GLAAD an email about it.

Brings me back to my point about how even we cannot come up with foolproof descriptions and how I don't expect the media or society at large to do so either.

[Marleena]

I hope this post doesn't cause problems and it's only my observation. The Cder's that have problems with the word transgender are the ones that dissect the "trans" part. "Crossing over" genders is what seems to bother them. They are reminding us they are male no matter how they are dressed. Maybe they just don't want anybody to ever think of them as female even though they might only dress for comfort and relief. Nowhere does it state here that they are even temporarily female though.

[NicoleScott]

I don't really care whether or not I (as a crossdresser) am under the TG umbrella - I just want all of us on the same page. I'm OK with defining transgender as those who identify as feminine gender AND (not OR) dress to express it. The OR includes run-of-the-mill CDers like me. For all of us including the label-haters it becomes even more important when laws are enacted providing protections for the TG. We better know who is included in that, and I hope the lawmakers define it as part of the pertinent laws. Veronic's third paragraph illustrates what can happen. A crossdresser (if included in the TG definition) one day feels like crossdressing for work. I have no feminine internal identity - as a man I would want to use the men's restroom, which may make other men uncomfortable. Or I could quote the law allowing me to use the women's restroom, which might make females uncomfortable, especially if they know I don't really identify as female. I know that the issue is far greater than restroom assignments.
There was a recent thread asking do you see yourself as CD or TG? Many answered one way or the other, but I saw the question like asking if that is an apple or a fruit. I suspect that for those answering TG, they are those who crossdress (as an action) to express their feminine identity, but I really don't know that. They may be thinking, since I'm a CD, I am also a TG.
I agree with Zylia, if we can't agree on foolproof descriptions how can we expect the media or society at large to?

[Valarie]

I like to say that I am "double spirited" sometimes. Many Native American tribes used this phrase to describe men and women that had qualities and characteristics of both sexes. They were highly praised in the society for having knowledge and an understanding of how a man and a woman looked at the world. I learned about this when I was around 10, and always felt this way, and later in my Native American History class I wrote a paper on it. We defiantly are a wise and understanding group :)

[LilSissyStevie]

For anyone that's interested, this person has researched the usage of the term "transgender" as to when and how it became an "umbrella" term for all gender variant types.

http://www.cristanwilliams.com/b/2012/03/27/tracking-transgender-the-historical-truth/

Jack Molay also had a blog entry yesterday about Wikipedia's use of the term

http://www.crossdreamers.com/2013/12/what-does-transgender-really-mean-on.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+autogynephiliac+%28Crossdream ers%3A+Confessions+of+an+Autogynephiliac%29


It occurs to me that, before the term transgender came into use, there was an already existing umbrella term coined in the early 1900's by the sympathetic German sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld to refer to those born in the body of one sex and who dressed for whatever reason in the clothing of the other sex. Hirschfeld's case studies covered the full spectrum of what many call transgender today. They included those who dressed for purely sexual reason and those who had transitioned to live as the other sex. He called them...

drum roll please.....

Transvestites

[Tina_gm]

ok.... I am going to play a little devil's advocate here..... the LGBT, T for transgender. For those who are "just crossdressers" and do not go out in public, or do little to nothing other than don female clothing, there really is little true need for them to accept the occasional CDer who keeps themselves private. The T is for those who want to go out in public and assimilate with the public while expressing themselves in a cross gender way. To be perhaps hired and work while dressed, or not get harassed, beaten up etc etc. I would say that the LBGT should do more for those people who do not want to transition and or consider themselves to be hetero. That though is a minority, who desire to take CDing to that level, and yet not want to transition, or consider themselves TS, and are hetero. A lot of us, myself included do fantasize of a world of more acceptance, and perhaps we would be more comfortable to go out, or go out more often and to more places. What I am saying is that the group itself, is an umbrella and that the last letter itself is the biggest minority of that which it covers, and of which it covers, those who do or would benefit from the group are a minority among those of us who are in the TG spectrum. I do agree, that the group should be more inclusive... especially to those who are hetero, because I do think there is a bit of a hang up when it comes to those who are in the spectrum yet are hetero. At the same time, it is only a fairly small percentage of the entire group which they cover.

[laciewhite]

i'm not so hung-up on terms myself, but i can well imagine that genuine transgender people would want to define themselves as apart from someone like me who's just a guy who gets off on wearing women's clothes in the privacy of his own home sometimes.

[oliviall]

Transgender is a better word to use in media, because it doesn't contain the loaded suffix "-sexual", which the masses immediately translate into "a weirdo I need to keep away from my children and pets". Its unfortunate that we cannot often use words like adults, but in my opinion there are many people out there who suffer from a serious Beavis and Butthead complex when they hear such words. Best to avoid that nonsensical reaction if attempting to have a serious discussion.