...if you never crossdressed

[NicoleScott]

A question was raised (by me) in Veronica's "...Lost Bet" thread:

"Can a guy be a CDer if he never crossdressed?"

Rather than get that thread off-track, a new thread.
I know some people see it as what you do rather than what you are. That is, some see themselves as TG (oh how I dislike using that term, so let's say Gender Non-Conforming), not CDer, but crossdress is what they DO to express their internal feminine identity. I'm Ok with being called a crossdresser.
To the topic: If a guy had this "innate desire" to crossdress but never did for any of several reasons (fear, cut out of the will, labelled, religious, etc.), could he be called a CDer?
Many responsed to "fantasize about being with a man while en femme" threads by saying "if you fantasize about sex with a man, you're gay", even if you never did.
Same thing, right? If you have the desire to CD, you're a CDer, even if you never did.
I used to chat a lot in AOL crossdresser chatrooms 10+ years ago. There are all kinds: CDers, admirers, straight, gay, bi, some looking for a hookup, some just wanting to get aroused....etc etc. I'm convinced that there are guys out there who never crossdressed but who have that "innate desire".
What do you think? Or is all of this semantics?

[Katy120]

Nicole,

I think you are right. I think there are men who have the desire, but never do it. This was especially true in pre-internet days. However, I think that situation has changed and will continue to change as online resources make it easier for men with the en femme urge to buy gear, to be assured that dressing isn't off-the-wall wierd, and to connect with others who share this desire.

[Stephanie Michelle]

That a great question Nicole. But with that logic that means if I think of alcohol a lot, am I an alcoholic? I would say he has crossdressing tendencies, but until he actually crossdresses and likes to do it or that makes him feel that its the right thing to do for him then he is a crossdresser.

[celeste26]

Is it possible to have an innate desire that one has no conscious knowledge of?

Is it possible that without some "trigger" that innate desire never is known?

If both of those statements are true then it is incorrect to call such a person a CDer. It would simply not be any part of his life, at least until the trigger was pulled. We really dont need to go around calling people CDers just for the heck of it without the least scintilla of evidence.

On the other hand "CD once" might or might not be evidence of an underlying 'innate desire.' Another person cannot make such a judgement based upon skimpy evidence of a single CD event. It can only be properly decided much later on with hindsight.

[KayleeTaylor]

If you have an "innate desire" to CD, then you will find a way. It is not something that can be turned off. I don't believe that it is something that is "discovered" later in life. Now an individual has control on when/where/how to dress and sometimes it takes years for a person to accept this part of him/herself.

The desire is there and has always been there. Even in pre-internet days (which a lot of us are from that era) we found ways.

[Katey888]

Nicole - I think you're right, you too Katy (great name btw:battingeyelashes:) - but possibly the nature of our hobby in some ways makes it easy for CDers to present a completely normal male appearance to the world and so therefore the desire is relatively easy to satisfy without arousing suspicions - if you're careful... I think most wardrobe CDers (those still completely private) would never admit to it anyway, simply because so much stigma is attached to 'men who like to wear womens' clothes' in normal life.
I can honestly say that I've never fantasised at all about sex with men and never will. It has not been the same when it comes to beautiful women AND their beautiful clothes (and shoes, and hair, and lips and... :blah:)

And yes, all of that is semantics too :heehee:

Kateyx

[GretchenJ]

Can a guy be a CDer if he never crossdressed?"

No, I don't **think*** so, but he would still fall under the all inviting TG umbrella.

[Lynn Marie]

I'm fascinated with airplanes, but that doesn't make me a pilot any more than Nascar fanatics can be called "race drivers". I'm pretty sure that you have to experience the thrill of the sport before you can even identify with the term, CD.

[Lucy_Bella]

I always wanted to be a Professional Quarterback instead I wound up being a Sunday arm chair Quarterback ..You gotta practice to be a real ..

[Zylia]

I personally think that a person who identifies as male but wears typically female clothing and/or presents himself as female (on a regular basis) is (for lack of a better term) a 'cross-dresser'. Having transvestic (sexual)/autogynephilic fantasies doesn't make you a cross-dresser as much as not everyone who cross-dresses has transvestic fantasies. On the other hand, a person who pretends to be female on the internet but doesn't physically 'cross-dress' arguably still might be something of a cross-dresser.

[Beverley Sims]

Semantics, probably engaging in erotica.
I think you have to physically do it to be one. :)

[LilSissyStevie]

You wouldn't be a crossdresser, you would be a crossdreamer. Jack Molay of Crossdreamers.com came up with the term as an alternative to autogynephilia since AGP implies the "erotic target location error" nonsense and crossdreaming only describes what it is that you do. Jack is not a crossdresser. He also started a small forum for crossdreamers, Crossdream Life. The membership includes both CDs and non-CDs, fetish and dysphoric crossdreamers.

I would describe myself more as a crossdreamer than a CD because I only CD occasionally and I've gone long periods (years) where I never CDed. I feel no particular compulsion to CD and if I had a good reason I wouldn't do it at all but I'm always a crossdreamer.

[Jenny Gurl]

There are alcoholics that have never taken a drink. You don't have to participate in an activity to have an internal deep desire or weakness for something. There are people who have never taken a drink in their lives due to multiple reasons, some of these people are alcoholics but don't know it because they have never tried it. There are different levels of femininity in males and females. I know some girls who would not be caught dead in a dress, others who can't get purse shopping off their mind for more than a few hours. Males also come in different levels, if they have a very strong desire I doubt much would be able to keep them from cross dressing any more than a true girly girl could keep from indulging in femininity. I worked with a lady who shopped just about daily because it was just so much fun to find the perfect shoes, outfits, jewelry, makeup, etc. Had she been born a male, she would probably be on this board.

[Tina_gm]

Count me in as one of those who had the desires but never indulged. (ok extremely rarely ever) but rare enough you might as well say never. And those few times when I did were not enjoyable, I was too afraid of myself and what I was doing and of getting caught, so I was never able to relax enough to truly enjoy it. Would be cross dresser, CD fantasy... That I had the desires and feelings of femininity, I would say I was always in the TG umbrella. I fought like heck to get out from under it, just never could.

[Elizabeth36]

Thank you for posting about cross dreaming. I had posted earlier about trying to understand a man I have had a 3 year relationship with. He has strong fantasies of being a woman and being feminized. Even force feminized. He had chatted online for 20 years as a woman but had not dressed until this past year. What happens when such a man meets a woman who encourages and even joins in his fantasies. I felt I was helping him deal with and understand his inner turmoil. It did benefit us both but when we met in real after a day he became withdrawn and pragmatic saying the issue wasn't as big in his life as he had thought and a real relationship would not work. Is this this association really only about fantasy satisfaction for him? Even he said I don't know what is fantasy and what is reality at some points.

[Jaymees22]

I think if the desire is there, but for whatever reason not acted on, that person is still a crossdresser. Jaymee

[Karren H]

I think that the rules say no..... not till you put on the first garment.... prior to that he could be cd-curious.... or be a Pre-cd..... or cd-capable! lol

[Stephanie47]

My personal slant on it is cross dressing requires wearing the garments. But, more than just wearing the garments for Halloween clowning around it requires a mind set. There has to be some inner feeling to compel getting all dolled up. I do not think wearing just feminine panties makes you are cross dresser. In my mind that makes you fetish dresser. Sure, there potential CD-ers out there who will never take the plunge because societal mores and norms prevent the man from exploring his inner self. The thought of rejection and ridicule in the family, among friends and business and social peers is overwhelming. But, it still requires donning the clothing for the purpose of expressing one's inner feminine self.

[Hell on Heels]

The word crossdresser is actually 2 words cross and dresser, and if a person isn't preforming the act of dressing, I don't see how they could be considered a crossdresser. I agree with Karren here, they are just curious,.
As we all know, this is "urge" to dress is very powerful, and given enough time this person will eventually act on his curiosity.

[Stephanie Sometimes]

A question was raised (by me) in Veronica's "...Lost Bet" thread:

"Can a guy be a CDer if he never crossdressed?"

Nope. To quote Dusty Springfield: Wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin' won't get you anywhere. Seems to me you have to actually dress to be a CD.

I have a wildass "theory" that a great many men (maybe even a majority) think it would fun, or just a turn on, to wear women's clothes at some point in their life. But it remains one of the great taboos of "real manhood". I think most men would never admit even the mere thought of it as they have been programmed that it would somehow destroy their (fragile, maybe) sense of manliness. Just a theory (ok scientists, really a hypothesis) that cannot be tested since we cannot read minds or talk such folks into being truly honest about their thoughts in some meaningless gender survey since they are probably not honest with themselves.

As many have noted on this forum, it takes some real guts to actually CD. Mere thoughts are easy.

Hugs,
Stephanie

[Elizabeth36]

I agree. Career and rejection by family and friends are what keep many men locked within themselves with these desires. My question is how easy is it to suppress it again after you have let it out and finally shared it with someone?

[Stephanie Sometimes]

Once you let the inner "girl" out then it can be very difficult to suppress. Read up on this forum about the "Pink Fog". Not to say that some folks are not able to suppress it for many years under sometimes severe situations. But why suppress?
Hugs,
Stephanie

[Karren H]

In other words.... just because every kid wanted to be a Fireman (person) all his life doesn't make him or her a Fireman (person)

[kendra_gurl]

I think we all know or have chatted with at least one guy like this and we call them ( and they usually call themselves) admirers not Crossdressers.

[Stephanie Julianna]

I had a 30 year relationship with a gentleman who loved to be around CDs and TGs. He admitted that he would have loved to dress but being a short, stocky, hairy man of Lebanese decent he conceded that it was never to be. I think that he was afraid that he would be taken for a terrorist with lots of explosives under his dress. However, he was so gentle and kind to the few "girls" he remained close to over the years that there was nothing any of us would have done for him if he asked. And he didn't ask much. He just wanted to be out on the town with the prettiest girl in the club. I tried my best to fulfill his wish and on few nights we blew them away. I really miss him. He died 2 years ago from Lung CA. He'd be the first to tell you that he was a crossdresser.

[Veronica27]

I tend to agree with Stephanie's "hypothesis" that it is quite likely that a majority of men have thoughts along these lines, but for the reasons she mentions, never act upon those thoughts or even admit to having them. As to the original question, I think that a guy can be a crossdresser without ever doing so, not in the pragmatic literal sense of putting on the clothing, but through his thoughts and activities such as reading about the subject, thinking about it, dreaming about it and so on. I am a model railroader, and there is a term for those who want to build a model railroad, but have neither the time, the talent, the space or the money to do so. If they read about it, dream abut it, visualize it and so on, they are called "arm-chair modellers". They do not actively model, but they are nevertheless considered to be model railroaders.

As with all such questions, I think the answer lies in the definition of "innate desire". Can it exist without our being aware of it? Is it awakened by whatever trigger prompted us to think about it, or does it originate at that point? That is the old nature versus nurture argument. Whichever argument you support, I think you might become a crossdresser at the point that the innate desire is awakened. The extent of the reaction to that awakening is irrelevant.

Veronica

[suchacutie]

For my first 55 years I had no desire to be anything but a guy, as far as I knew...but that could not have been completely true even though I didn't understand it. How could I have possibly shifted gears in 48 hours otherwise? On Saturday morning I was a guy and by Monday morning I had a name and had spent all weekend talking about it with my wife or researching online.

I wish I could understand what was keeping my conscious self in the dark for 55 years.

[NicoleScott]

I think the answer lies in the definition of "innate desire". Can it exist without our being aware of it?

In the OP I assumed (but should have specified) that the person was aware of the "innate desire" to crossdress, but for whatever reason, never tried it. The "innate desire" lurking unaware because it's never been tested is an interesting topic for another time.
"Crossdreamer" is a good word to describe this, but I'm reluctant to consider another label for future arguments here, if you know what I mean. We already have plenty to keep us busy. haha
Maybe it does come down to semantics, whether someone who never crossdressed could be considered a CDer.
Good support for different views, and thanks for everybody's responses.

[Desirae]

Put me down for if a guy has an inclination (a thought) that he would like to dress, but never actually adorns the attire, he is still a CD. Putting the clothes on is the act of CDing. It's the desire, or inclination, or whatever you want to call it, in your head (or wherever it's located) that makes you a CD (or TS).

[mary something]

dressing is an action, unless you are a nudist you are either cross dressing or regular dressing. Cross dreaming sounds right to me too, Molay has written a lot about it, anyone who feels this way should check it out and see if his writing connects with their feelings.

[AngelaKelly<3]

I think the term you use to describe yourself if a quite personal thing.

If someone is most comfortable being called a CDer, even if they've never done it, then I think that's what they should be called.