"Im so tired of needing to always be a man" [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Lorileah

01-03-2014, 06:29 PM

First the reason you don't see those questions here is because they really are not related at all to transgenderism. They are life questions so to speak :)

Second, it is one of those things I think that you need to be in someone's shoes to really understand. This is because we all have a different perspective of how things are or should be. For example, I had an assumption recently that most women at sometime or another imagined what it was like to be the "man". That they would look at a guy and say "gee if I only could _______ like he does, just to try it." I was informed that this was a false assumption on my part. it is because I had the perspective that women had certain "things" they were allowed so to speak and men had other things. Like say standing to urinate (I will admit that I used to take that for granted). I know that gender stereotypes are wrong, that men can be say nurturing, just as well as a woman, but these things are so ingrained in society, we see them as "rights" the certain gender is endowed with. You use the killing bugs and lifting things example. Many people will agree that males should be the ones doing the heavy lifting in the relationship while the woman stands back and watches (now don't get all angry, this is how society has stated it should be, not how it is). Of course this has evolved because males do have a greater muscle mass in many areas. Not always true, I am a weakling when it comes to power. But if something needed to be moved, it was the men who either took it upon themselves or were asked to do it.

So when someone here says they are tired of being the "man" I can see where they are coming from. They want the ability to wear something they think is sexy (again perspective, because men think sexual dress is sexy whereas a woman may think a color or style is sexy). Unfortunately this does lead to men dressing in shall we say, overtly over sexualized styles. Things that men and women may associate with sex. Garters for instance. And when a man dresses like that the woman looks at it not as dressing sexy but dressing for sexual purposes. This is really hard to explain even when some of us have been on the other side of the coin for a while.

But women have their stereotypes too. Often here we hear about a SO who wants a hairy man, a gruff man, a man who smells of sweat, who shows what women have been told a man should appear. You were bombarded with it while you were growing up...even when it was used for things associated with women, i.e. Brawny towels (flannel shirt and biceps), Mr Clean "bald and biceps). It is why some women are attracted to the bad boy image (bikes and drinking and fights) instead of the guy who works in an office and doesn't do anything even remotely dangerous. Personally, I think having a TG spouse would be an advantage because they are less likely to do the bad boy things that are not wanted. A Tg spouse maybe more likely to sympathize with you;show emotions; like your design idea...or even see your point of view.

So it isn't that the men here want to give up alll the things that come with being male (size, strength, sexuality as such) but they would also like to enjoy and partake in what they see as things women "get" to do. Look soft, act sexy, feel less in control.

Yes we all know these things are not the realm of one sex over the other but admit it, as a woman (or for the men who read this) there are certain expectations that each gender is expected to meet. Some we enjoy some we don't (it's a rough life, suck it up and do what you are supposed to do). If a man could see it from a woman's perspective, he may not see CDing as a fun activity when he has to live up to certain stereotypes. And if we could, somehow, let the women see what we see, maybe they would be less condemning of it. Breaking away from the sexual aspects and seeing that not all or even many of the TGs, at least here, don't dress for sexual reasons. They dress to express who they are, how they feel.

But we both have our ingrained ideas of what the other is...or should be. I know that I have not in anyway cleared up your question but maybe if you could just see that it is a perspective issue and that if you and your SO could actually see how the other sees TGism it would make it at least a little clearer.

GirlieAmanda

01-03-2014, 06:35 PM

With my partner I am still the one who fixes the cars, lifts heavy stuff, opens jars, etc. but I enjoy being strong. I enjoy doing traditionally masculine stuff. It still makes me feel powerful and accomplished. I installed in-door car speakers and replaced many a headlight bulb even in her Prius which is a PAIN to do. My hands got all dirty and rough but I cleaned them up and they are fine. I got a few looks when the door panels were all over the place at our apartment parking lot. Just because you are a female doesn't mean you have to automatically turn into a "Helpless Hopeless" as my Mom used to say. This is the modern age, women need to be strong and capable.

Michelle789

01-03-2014, 06:39 PM

"How to tell my wife that I want to stop being responsible for doing the taxes, or maintaining the car, or ..."

I know some people (both men and women) who insist that it's the wife's job to handle the money and taxes, and that it's only natural.

I think gender roles are somewhat based on biology, but somewhat based on culture too. Perhaps in some cultures, it's the women who do the taxes. In others, the men do the taxes.

Tina955

01-03-2014, 06:44 PM

This is just my view, but the way I see it, if a woman is having a hard go at life, she can always find a man that can take all the pressure off. (not necessarily monetary, since many women make more money these days) Men don't generally have that option. So no matter how bad your life is going, just man up and get over yourself. That is what I've been taught.
Just an example, my two sisters are living the high life with entrepreneurial husbands, while my three brothers and I have pretty much struggled our entire lives.
I am happy for my sisters, but just trying to make my point. And again this is all thru my jaded eyes. I know some will disagree.

Tina

MatildaJ.

01-03-2014, 06:49 PM

Certainly, if the wife already does the taxes, then her husband won't ask to get out of doing the taxes.

I am hoping to hear from men who sometimes feel they want a break from the male role, and find out what else that means to them, besides the clothes/sexiness aspect.

I didn't see your post, Tina, before I posted again. That's a good example: men sometimes wish they could rely on someone else to take care of them and make the decisions. Though maybe that desire comes and goes?

PaulaQ

01-03-2014, 07:02 PM

I'll start, although I'm trans so my answers may skew things a bit.

Man stuff I hated:
1. Being expected to fix the car. You know what? I don't know anything about cars. I *hate* working on cars. But this was my deal. "because men do that"
2. Always being the one to initiate sex, be in charge of our sex life. This was 100% of my responsibility in my relationship. "because I'm shy about it" (Sometimes I wanted to be the one getting screwed. Never happened.)
3. Being the emotional bulwark everyone relied on. That is just exhausting. "you are so strong..."
4. Being allowed to express almost NO emotion in any aspect of my life. "what, are you some type of sissy" (turns out - yes.)
5. Listening to other dudes, who I did not understand, talk about ****ing sports. Endlessly.
6. Never being allowed to change much - for 20 years, I was static and unchanging.
7. The constant displays of macho needed to keep others from figuring out I was different.
8. I hated receiving stuff for men as gifts. **** it - there wasn't a thing I wanted. I was impossible to buy gifts for, and at gift giving occasions, I expected disappointment.
9. I hated feeling responsible for everything. I was the sole breadwinner in the family. If something happened to me, we were in real trouble. This was a LOT of pressure. I felt, as a man, I had no choice but to accept this role.

OK, that's a list of the stuff off the top of my head. I feel certain I could go on. I mostly tried to leave trans stuff out of it. I also know that I received great privilege in exchange for all this stuff I hated. If I hadn't hated it so much, and hated my body so much, well, I'd be a guy, because the tradeoffs are mostly worth it, unless you're transgendered.

busker

01-03-2014, 07:27 PM

[QUOTE=JessM.;3395297]

"How to tell my wife that I want to quit my job."
"How to tell my wife that I want to be able to express emotions."
"How to tell my wife that I want to stop killing bugs and carrying heavy boxes for her."
"How to tell my wife that I want to stop being responsible for doing the taxes, or maintaining the car, or ..."

you probably won't find these questions here because they really seem to relate to being an adult, rather than a cross-dresser. There are men and women who never marry or perhaps never have a partner, yet these tasks are all part of life, and being an adult. We have to work, like it or not. Perhaps you meant "my husband wants to quit his mining job and become a seamstress"? That would be a possibility here because of the general gender connection. Men are also in the fashion world, but as a guy going into the fabric store, I can tell I'm intruding no matter what I buy.
Men aren't -generally- brought up to express a lot of emotion. My father never really showed much but at some point in life he was in love with my mother and I'm certain at that point he did show emotion. It's an "acceptable" time to do so, but after, one had better get back to "being a man".
Some boys don't like bugs, and that would carry over as an adult, and while they feel they have to "man up" and do it, they might just rather not. I'm not squeamish, but prefer not to kill anything, bugs included, and more so, since they have a function on this planet other than being the object of the pest control guy who brings the profits for the likes of Monsanto.
And finally, taxes, car maintenance, etc CAN be very streesful, especially if one is not good at it, and all men are not created equal in that regard. Some guys can rebuild a car blindfolded and some can't find the spare tire. When one is expected because of gender, then that is where the pressure is. The same for women whose male half wants them to "be sexy" all the time. It is a pressure that people--men and women--don't need. Too often we fail to explain that to our partners and wind up in the gutter.
Gender in general is a problem because it tends to lock us in pretty hard and fast in roles that we may not want or appreciate. Expectations from others --learned from parents--must often be met, but with great consequences on the part of the person who is expected to "perform" whatever. I can do just about anything, my brother is brainy but clutzy, yet the expectations about our ability "to do" is equal.
Men are expected to dress conservatively, women more flamboyant--if they wish. We have turned general dress into absolutes rather than "our costume for the day" It is, after all, just a costume, and we are the players. Haven't you ever asked yourself, what do I want to look like today? When I was young and out to impress, my dress role models were Cary Grant, Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire and even Nick Charles---but never ASTA. Now, It's Amandas, no-panty-line underwear, camis and bras (I have gynecomastia), and I'm not out to impress.
It was a good question and though I haven't logged on in ages, I thought it worth doing just to add another point of view.
take care

Tina955

01-03-2014, 07:29 PM

Wow Paula, that was dead on. Couldn't have said it better. I am so tired of putting up fronts to not show my true self.
I do think, had my life gone a different direction instead of getting married and having two children, I probably would have considered transitioning. My wife passed 4 years ago, and even tho my kids are adults, I don't want them to feel like they are losing dad too. I am now a frustrated crossdresser, because I want more than just the clothes.

Tina

devida

01-03-2014, 07:59 PM

Well, I do understand what you're saying. I too am sick to death of being a man, in terms of the ideas that I labored under for most of my life believing were necessary to being masculine. In fact I never did act much like the stereotype of manliness that I thought I had to maintain. I was always pretty queer and, really, nobody treated me like I was some masculine hunk. What I discovered was that this was really entirely up to me. Nobody actually had the ability to force me to be masculine. I gave them that power. It was never theirs. My gender identity was always mine. I did not have to do what I, in my confused view, thought was masculine. Nobody was telling me I had to be this or that. I was telling myself what manliness was, based on cues from my childhood and the general society. All I had to do was recognize that and understand I really could do whatever I wanted. Of course there are consequences to all of our actions, non-conforming or not, but they're rarely as bad as what we imagine. In fact, these days, society in the West is so much more tolerant of gender deviance that it's historically unprecedented. If you don't want to be what you think is masculine, don't be. Find out who you want to be, and try to be that, rather than what you think other people want you to be. They actually probably don't care as much as you think they do. Life, especially for someone trying to discover their true identity, gender, or otherwise, is an adventure of self-discovery. Don't freeze yourself in place with fear and anxiety. Enjoy the adventure!

Oops, I should have read your signature. I assumed you were a man complaining about gender expectations, not a GG/ So to a CD, so you'll have to take my comments as if I was talking to the man who was making these complaints. Sorry!

DebbieL

01-03-2014, 08:12 PM

In another thread, LeighR. said that her wife doesn't tolerate any evidence of dressing.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?207003-So-what-s-the-point

She said she's tired of having to be the man, and I want to know more about what that might mean to cross-dressers in general.
Some women are attracted to cross-dressers and transgenders because they WANT to be the man. My step-daughter's reaction when her mother showed her a picture of me as Debbie was "Well mom, at least you won't have to worry about shattering his male ego when you take charge". She was correct about that.

When I proposed to my wife, she said "OK, but I'm in charge of it". My response was "I wouldn't have it any other way". We are a very happy couple.

What happens if you try to analyze or reject gendered activities separately from gendered clothes? We often have posts about "how to tell my wife that I wear women's clothing," but I can't remember any posts about any of the following topics:

This is one of the key distinctions between cross-dressers and transsexuals. Cross-dressers are often ONLY interested in wearing women's clothes, and often only for sexual gratification. They enjoy being men in other areas of their life and can even be a bit sexist and vested in their manhood. These are Level 1 and 2 on the transgender scale.

Transsexuals on the other hand are acutely aware of masculine and feminine roles and struggle with it almost from the time they start grade school, some even begin to experience it as soon as they start trying to play with boys and girls their own age.

In grade school, boys will bully a "Sissy" but not just with names. Often, the label makes an effeminate boy a target for cruel beatings, torture, terror, and being attacked on a regular basis. Making the problem even worse is that true transsexuals don't have the brain structure to fight back. Their feminine nature is hormonal, starting during the first 6-12 weeks of pregnancy. Scientists have discovered a gene that prevents these boys from processing the testosterone their bodies produced during those formative months. The brain's "fight or flight" instinct is smaller, more typical of a mother who would nurture her baby and need the cooperation of other men and women in the community to survive. They have more "White matter" which makes them calmer and more placid. When attacked, their instinctive reaction is to cry.

The brutality is systemic. Because the boy doesn't fight back, and cries, teacher and even parents will tell him "Boys don't cry" or "Keep crying like a girl and I'll give you something to cry about". They begin to hate not only the labels, but also the sexism implied, that somehow women are not worth of respect. Boys aren't allowed to hit girls, but they are often ENCOURAGED to beat the crap out of cute little sissy boys.

"How to tell my wife that I want to quit my job."
The pressure to become the breadwinner is intense. Unable to compete in sports, to be a protector, or to be a muscled stud, many transsexuals turn to intellectual pursuits, becoming "nerds" or "egg-heads". In my own case, I hated most books about boys, and books about girls made me sad because I couldn't be a girl, even though I wanted to be. My recourse was to non-fiction. I could learn how things worked. I learned about cooking and sewing, but I also learned about radio, electricity, and photography. I knew that since I had to be a man, I would have to learn things that would make it possible for me to make money without having to be strong or tough.

I even went to a college known for grooming the wives of Air Force officers. Many girls were out for their MRS degree marrying a man who wanted a good wife and mother. There were a few women at the Academy at the time, but they didn't want a MAN who would be a good wife and mother. Some of them were looking for other officers.

"How to tell my wife that I want to be able to express emotions."

As transgenders, we learn that expressing emotions is DANGEROUS! If someone hits you and you start to cry, all of the other boys will start to hit you too. Athletic coaches would tell the boys they weren't allowed to cry, and boys who cried were often attacked by the entire team. There is little more terrifying than having someone on your soccer team trip you, then having all of the boys on BOTH teams kicking your head back, stomach, and legs like YOU WERE THE BALL! All while the gym teacher looks on and SMILES!

"How to tell my wife that I want to stop killing bugs and carrying heavy boxes for her."

Many transgenders don't have well developed muscles. We may be tall and slender because of a massive spurt of testosterone during puberty, but we never became body builders, worked out, or tried to win fights. We'll carry the boxes because it needs to be done, but we might have to lift them carefully, use a dolly or hand truck, or even take it a step at a time up the stairs. A muscled masculine man who wanted to be big, strong, and tough would be able to carry his weight in boxes up the stairs without hesitation - but he would probably expect something in return for the favor. A transgender man wouldn't demand to be rewarded with sexual favors for such a simple act.

"How to tell my wife that I want to stop being responsible for doing the taxes, or maintaining the car, or ..."

As a transgender, I actually DID find it quite easy to let my wife (both of them actually) manage the finances and pay the taxes. I learned to fix my Rambler American because I could buy it for $25 and fix it myself, but once I could afford to have my cars fixed by a mechanic, and could afford Triple-A, I didn't even try to change my own oil. I did buy a trike and fix it up, but even then I wanted to be the bitch on the bike. There was even one lady biker who I knew was bi. I'd have easily let her do whatever she wanted with me to be her bitch. She knew I wanted it, but never offered.

I know that men often say they feel trapped by their gendered roles, feel they have to compete in an aggressive male world. But I want to know more about what that feels like, and why that aspect can't be addressed separately from the clothes issue.

Look at the name most frequently used in books where a transgendered male is feminized. They are called "Sissy" stories. Women don't seem to understand how incredibly heavily loaded that word is for a transgender male who has been terrorized for over a decade at an impressionable age. Being called a "Sissy" might even make him wince at the flashbacks. They may eventually learn to embrace the term, but only after careful support from an attractive woman who wants to give him the lifelong dream of being able to dress, walk, and talk and live like a girl.

Very often, effeminate men are mistakenly perceived as being gay. The irony of this is that after being tormented by boys all her life, the last thing a girl trapped in a boy's body would want is to be further attacked sexually by the same kinds of boys who bullied her as a child. Often, it isn't until we are living full time as women that transsexuals get the experience of men being nice, polite, courteous, even sweet and romantic to us. I do admit to getting a bit of a thrill when a man my age starts trying to flirt with me because he thinks I'm pretty.

Maybe I'm way off track, and the only aspect that men don't like about the male role is that they aren't allowed to feel pretty. If that's true, please let me know. I'm just trying to understand how much is about the clothes and how much is about the burden of other kinds of gendered expectations.

You're not wrong, but many transgender males don't want to talk about this kind of pain. I've written about it in my book "Debbie's Secret Life", but there are very few books about it. Katie Leone talks about it in "Wrestling with Myself" and in "Finding Jenny", but even this is from the perspective of transsexual who is living as a girl and being persecuted for it.

Stories of such prolonged terror and trauma don't sell very well. Those of us who have transformed ourselves and come to terms with those traumas, put the past in the past, and moved on with our lives. Writing about those awful days brings back pain that is often best left in the past, where it belongs. I only wrote these things in my book in hopes of helping others understand the experience of life for a boy who had to live in "Stealth Mode".

If you wish to personal message me I can give you details about getting the book.

MatildaJ.

01-03-2014, 08:29 PM

I did not have to do what I, in my confused view, thought was masculine. Nobody was telling me I had to be this or that. I was telling myself what manliness was, based on cues from my childhood and the general society. All I had to do was recognize that and understand I really could do whatever I wanted. Of course there are consequences to all of our actions, non-conforming or not, but they're rarely as bad as what we imagine.

I am a GG, but this is exactly how I feel about gender roles. I don't feel comfortable with all parts of the women's role in our society, and I understand my husband not wanting all the male roles. Not every wife will feel like I do -- PaulaQ has suggested that her wife would never have let her give up some of those responsibilities (for the car, for initiating sex, for putting on a macho exterior, for earning a high salary, etc.).

But I think many women would be able to be more flexible, and could discuss how to arrange the marriage so that each person is only doing tasks they feel okay about (and maybe outsourcing the rest to other people, or figuring out how to do without).

PaulaQ

01-03-2014, 08:45 PM

But I think many women would be able to be more flexible, and could discuss how to arrange the marriage so that each person is only doing tasks they feel okay about (and maybe outsourcing the rest to other people, or figuring out how to do without).

I think you are correct Jess. Society doesn't make this stuff very easy to negotiate.
Women: "Congrats, you are empowered now! The equal of any man! Just don't stop doing all the stuff you used to be responsible for while you go to work now. (Erm, and don't compare your paycheck to anyone else's. It's against company policy, for ... reasons.)
Men: "You need to be sensitive, and willing to help out your spouse! And work 80 hours per week!"

Message to both: "don't vary too far from the roles you used to have - just do a whole bunch of extra outside the home work, because you are empowered now. Oh, if you fail to live up to any part of this stuff, we will really, really judge you! Oh, and we won't give you any vocabulary to even let you discuss this without getting defensive. Enjoy your freedom to be yourself!"

edit: While I acknowledge that both sides got screwed in this deal, I still maintain women got the worst end of the deal. They pay a tax for having a uterus, even if they NEVER intend to have children, and work as many hours as a man. And god forbid they actually try to be professionals AND moms. The men in corporate have no patience for that shit.

Beverley Sims

01-03-2014, 08:49 PM

Jess,
The four points that you raise, always helps me to want to be a protector and lover of my other half in life.
My wife.

Trapped in a gender role, never.
If someone else wants to be Adolf Hitler, I will cut him down when the time comes.

I really think some are trapped into thinking they have to exhude "woman" all the time.

Me, I certainly wear the pants in my family.....

Sometimes. :)

gennee

01-03-2014, 08:59 PM

My father and I had some testy moments. He thought I should be more aggressive because it's a dog-eat-dog world. I chose to handle things in a quiet and unassuming way. Toward the end of his life, I earned his respect.

Subconsciously,it's projected that we have to uphold the male species. This is tiring emotionally because living life can be hard enough. I enjoy male activities (electronics, repairing things, etc.) but I prefer the feminine. :)

Alice Torn

01-03-2014, 09:27 PM

I know, that some of us live lives of quiet desperation, as Thoreau wrote. I , at 56, was forced to have to return to my foul family of origin. My dad is now 93, full of sexual issues, and he had some sexual issues with me, but expected, but worhipped his harsh father, and still expects his adult kids to "worship him" the tyrant. It has brought many painful personal issues up, that i though i was done with. I am going through childhood anguish all over again. Gender issues, and roles, deep painful emotional stuff, about m y manhood, and fem side which i must hide, and expectations from my dad, and brother, and sister, all who are without mates. It never ends for some of us. The conflict wihin.

Kate Simmons

01-03-2014, 09:48 PM

This was one of my driving points behind my current thread "Would you miss it? " As far as feeling pretty, I allow myself to. Things you mention are necessary things that need to be done, regardless of gender.:)

vetobob9

01-03-2014, 09:51 PM

Many of us refer to being forced into stereotypical roles based on nothing but gender stereotypes. In most workplaces, if you don't live your life according to the stereotypes you can and will be fired for it.

Desirae

01-03-2014, 09:55 PM

At the point we are in the world now, I don't think there are any 100% male activities or 100% female activities. For every man that enjoys working on cars, I can show you another (at least) who doesn't. Not everyone is handy at doing things around the house. What about knitting? That used to be about a 100% female activity. Then along comes Rosie Greer. Remember him? My ex was terrible with money and the checkbook. She'd buy anything at any time. I took care of the money. Did I like taking care of the money? Heck no. Why? It's not because I minded taking care of the money and checkbook. It's because it was just another thing I had to do which took time away from other things that I enjoyed doing. I don't like cutting the grass, either, but I've always done it. Now, being single, I have to do EVERYTHING myself like dishes, and laundry, and grocery shopping, and snow shoveling, and lawn mowing, and balancing the checkbook, and cleaning the house, and working on the car, and repairing the house, etc. Who wouldn't want a break from having to do all that all the time? Frankly, I think females think the same way. Isn't that why people hire babysitters, to get away for a while? To get a break from it all? It has nothing to do with "feeling pretty" or needing to CD. That's just one form of escape. No different than a hobby in some respects, at least for some. Some other person's escape could be going to a ball game.

vetobob9

01-03-2014, 09:56 PM

I know some people (both men and women) who insist that it's the wife's job to handle the money and taxes, and that it's only natural.

I think gender roles are somewhat based on biology, but somewhat based on culture too. Perhaps in some cultures, it's the women who do the taxes. In others, the men do the taxes.

Actually modern roles such who runs the money and does taxes is based purely on bigotry within the culture and has absolutely nothing to do with biology or genetics.

LaraPeterson

01-03-2014, 10:00 PM

"Crossdressers in general" aren't going to be able to answer this question. Why? Because, the more you know about us as a group, the more you are going to realize that we are the most divergent "group" in the world. Probably the only thing we have truly in common is that fact that we wear women's clothes. So many of us who have been "at this" for a long time face an entirely different challenge than the current generation of dressers who are facing a more tolerant society.

We are married, single, divorced, widowed, young, old, tall, short, leggy, slim, fat. . .and on and on. So, those of us, including me, who say they are tired of always having to be a man, come to that conclusion for thousands of different reasons. For me, crossdressing DID begin as a sexual exercise, a fetish if you will, because at a very young age I was drawn to the feel and look of feminine clothes--and entering puberty is was just exciting, both the risk and reward. Years later, wishing and wanting to be a woman, I still love the clothes, but there is much, much more to it than just the frilly, sometimes sexy part.

I've said it before in numerous threads, if there was a magic pill, I'd take it. Why? And maybe this WILL partially answer your question: I'm not so tired of male responsibility, I'm more tired of the conflicting thoughts, the misunderstanding by loved ones and co-workers, the split personality, and all the work it takes to try to be two "different" people.

My humanity does not change one bit whether in male or female mode. My wit, level of intelligence (or lack thereof), my desire to help others, and my desire to be at peace with everyone I know is the same regardless of how I present myself. I guess what I'm trying to say to you, Jess, is that we are always going to have a "role" to play in life. Which role is not nearly as important as how we play it.

Chickhe

01-03-2014, 11:02 PM

...guy walks in the front door...1st thing out of wife's mouth is...the dryer doesn't work.

what I as a guy would prefer...

...wife says...the dryer broke, I know what is wrong with it, I have three estimates, and she will come home on her lunch break to take care of it...

...instead, its a burden placed on me to not only figure out what 'doesn't work' means, then I have to research, do all the leg work, worry about it etc etc...

MatildaJ.

01-03-2014, 11:40 PM

Chickie, if you said, "That sucks. So can you look into getting it fixed?"-- what would happen next?

(Yelp has made it a lot easier to do that research, at least in some regions.)

ReineD

01-04-2014, 02:42 AM

Jess, what a great question! I completely understand what you're getting at. You're asking why the choice of clothing/presentation has to be tied to a "I'm so tired of being a man" statement. Really, why can't the guy say that he wants his wife to make all the decisions this weekend? Or that he doesn't feel like doing any stereotypical manly chores for a few days. Or that he would like her to initiate sex once in awhile. If forum members should do this, would they then feel such a strong need to crossdress?

I think they still would. So maybe when they say they are tired of being men, they really mean that they are tired of looking like men?

For what it's worth, I can reverse the situation. As an at home mom, I also got tired of making three meals a day, years on end. Or tired of being the one to get up with the baby(ies) at night all those years, or being the one to cancel my activities when the kids were sick, or running them around to all their activities. Or being the one who seemingly would bend in order to keep the peace. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that all of us get into ruts over many of the things that we do regularly. It's not a gendered thing, it's human. Yet despite my wishing occasionally to have a break, I never did feel the need to look like and/or present as a man (and no, wearing jeans doesn't count) in order to escape my ruts. lol

PaulaQ

01-04-2014, 02:57 AM

I think they still would. So maybe when they say they are tired of being men, they really mean that they are tired of looking like men?

Not exactly. I think most of us on here hate having to conform to society's expectations of our appearance and behavior. We have this part of us we want to express, but can't. So the other societal gender roles that get foisted upon us rankle worse than they should.

You'll notice that in threads about male privilege, most of the most ardent critics of the notion of male privilege are CDs, and other TG folks who feel the benefits they get from male privilege (which are huge), don't outweigh the cost. Because they really are tired of being forced to always be men.

There's an element of truth to what you say, Reine particularly the notion that women have plenty to complain about with the roles they are assigned. (I have no argument for this - I know it is the truth.) So how can CDs, who have the awesome and magnificent benefit of male privilege decry it's very existence? Because the downside to being a guy is you can't be feminine in this society, at least not very feminine, and the more you show this, the more you lose the rights to your man card.

I believe the ones who declare "I'm tired of always being a man." I surely was - I wanted to be one 0% of the time. Others here have differing percentages.

Katie_Did GG

01-04-2014, 03:42 AM

I dunno Jess. Maybe they are just tired and need a break from life in general. Even if a husband talked with his wife wouldn't something else crop up in time that cause him to become weary and in need of escape? Just to unwind?? I would have to imagine that men that cross-dress do discuss things with wife's the same as those who do not cross-dress. I do understand your point, but I think the point we miss is that it cannot be narrowed down or nailed down so simply. Lordy if it could be explained simply I'd think someone would write that book and retire in luxury. There are just somethings in life we cannot understand unless we live it no matter how often or sincerely someone explains it to us. I think this is one of those things Jess.

Michelle789

01-04-2014, 03:47 AM

You'll notice that in threads about male privilege, most of the most ardent critics of the notion of male privilege are CDs, and other TG folks who feel the benefits they get from male privilege (which are huge), don't outweigh the cost. Because they really are tired of being forced to always be men.

I would say any CD, TS, or other gender variant who had a difficult time trying to be a man and hiding femininity (and consequently have been read as gay or sissy) are usually the most ardent critics of male privilege.

I also think accepting the notion of male privilege makes the assumptions that men are perpetrators, and women are victims. If you're a male who has played the victim role, whether to a male or female perpetrator, to you male privilege breaks down. If you've been a victim of a female perpetrator, regardless if you're male or female, male privilege also breaks down. This is why some GGs who were bullied by other women also don't believe in male privilege.

Because the downside to being a guy is you can't be feminine in this society, at least not very feminine, and the more you show this, the more you lose the rights to your man card.

Those of us who had a difficult time hiding our femininity, and got read as gay or sissy lose a lot of our male privilege, and therefore to us, male privilege does not outweigh the costs - so to us women may be perceived to have more benefits than men, or at least there is an equal trade-off between the genders.

Those of us who were able to hide our gender variance retained all our male privileges, and therefore to us, male privilege does outweigh the costs.

We all have a bias towards our own life experience without regards to how others experienced their life. If your father worked 80 hours a week and was never home, you might assume all men work long hours. If your father worked 40 hours a week and was home by 5:30 pm every night, you might assume that all men are home by 5:30 pm every night. If you grew up in a home where there was always food on the table and bills always paid that everyone had the same and you may be oblivious to the fact that there are people who starve and live without electricity. If you grew up eating only once per week with electricity being turned off half the time, you might think that's normal. It's called the normalcy bias.

DebbieL - I can relate to most of what you said in your post.

PaulaQ

01-04-2014, 04:07 AM

Those of us who were able to hide our gender variance retained all our male privileges, and therefore to us, male privilege does outweigh the costs.

Oh, if only. Ultimately, male privilege didn't keep me from transition as much as fear did. When I grew up, losing your man card was sometimes punished by death. Oh wait - it still is sometimes. :(

Jennifer Kelly

01-04-2014, 04:46 AM

There is much truth in what you say Paula. I am not TS. So I want to be both male and female. However my girlfriend wants me to be male only. So I can oly be female when we are not together. C'est la vie.

MatildaJ.

01-04-2014, 12:41 PM

Thanks, everyone, for these thoughtful replies. I've come to a new conclusion about the topic.

When I posted originally, I thought that a man could "let go" of some aspect of his male role and just be non-male or gender-neutral for a while. When I let go of some stereotypical female behavior (like trying to take care of the household), I feel gender-neutral. I don't feel male.

But the female role in our culture is more "marked" (with clothes, make-up, mannerisms, etc.) And the "unmarked case" is seen as more male (boring, unemotional). For more on how gender is marked/unmarked, see Deborah Tannen's 1993 New York Times Magazine piece "Marked Women, Unmarked Men", at http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/tannend/nyt062093.htm

So now I see that "letting go" of that male role may require going beyond what I see as "gender-neutral," and incorporating some stereotypical female attributes, just to counter-balance one's normal male role. I'm going to think more about this, but I really appreciate everyone's help so far.

kimdl93

01-04-2014, 01:18 PM

I don't think those stereotypes of male and female gender roles are a the core of being transgendered. Working isn't a male or female role today, nor really has it ever been, outside certain income levels. My female relatives worked their buns off, even before outside the home employment became commonplace for women. And they dealt with bugs, sick livestock,, stifled their emotions and helped manage family affairs.

I view those men who espouse frustration with the demands of their gender roles as having problems unrelated to being transgendered. First, they are clinging to an idealized view of women which for most of the worlds women has never been accurate. And second, they are indulging in escapist fantasies predicated on mistaken ideas about women's lives. They probably have entertained other equally unrealistic fantasies about how to escape their responsibilities.

If a person feels trapped by male responsibilities, I'm sorry. They need to focus on getting a realistic view of life. It's not a cakewalk for anyone.

For me, living as a woman doesn't and never has meant getting a pass on responsibilities. It's about expressing and fulfilling myself, not escaping.

Brooklyn

01-04-2014, 02:04 PM

One of the things I admire about my friends who are in same-sex marriages or relationships is how they navigate these roles openly and at a practical level. They talk about how to divide up housework, swap out who initiates sex, both can lift heavy boxes, both express emotions. Once you remove the ability to revert to stereotypical gender roles, couples can have a frank discussion about many subjects. I can certainly see how someone who is trans would have a different preference on these roles. In my experience, however, many CDers enter into more traditional relationships in an attempt to conform or "cure" themselves. That can make changing these roles more difficult.

Brynna M

01-04-2014, 02:46 PM

I really don't think that being a crossdresser and being tired of being a man are related. Its more of a different way of expressing dissatisfaction with responsibility and gender roles. Certainly a crossdresser could be tired of being a man when you'd rather be wearing a dress than a suit. But one could also simply be tired of all the obligations of the gender role in general. As others have said the expectations of manual labor, auto and home maintenance, bread winning, a certain stoicism can be draining. (don't get me wrong women have equally tiring expectations) While these male roles are no longer absolute the pressure, both self imposed and external is very real. While a typical male would never consider taking on a female role, a crossdresser who has already crossed the gender boundary with respect to clothes at least may entertain the idea of escaping whatever aspect of the male gender role the dislike by being female. A typical male may be more apt to say "i'm tired of... my job ...my life ...being an adult....)

As far as what it means to be tired of being a man.

- I wish I could look at clothes I like when I go shopping.
- I wish I could compliment a dress or shoes etc with out seeming weird or creepy.
- I wish I could buy myself tulips once in a while.
- I wish I could get rid of body hair.
- i'd love to dance more like a girl (although I'm built like a tank so it would look odd i'm sure.)
- and yes I wish I didn't bear total responsibility for the cars and the yard maintenance without my agreement simply because "those are man things."

While all of these are possible I would have to break the gender role barrier to do them. So when I feel trapped being responsible for things or being prohibited from things I might think "I'm tired of always being a man"

Badtranny

01-04-2014, 03:12 PM

I love this kind of stuff.

The trials and tribs of my transition have convinced me that a more liberal attitude about gender variance would have saved me from years of confusion. Would I have still transitioned if I could have openly said at 7 years old that I prefer to hang out with the girls? I don't know, but a cross-dressing man would NOT have such deep emotional feelings about pieces of fabric if the very idea of being pretty or fabulous wasn't completely closed off to them during their formative years.

The whole concept of masculine and feminine roles in marriage is a total red herring here though. A cross-dressing man has no concept of femininity outside of their own understanding and that means clothes and shopping and 'women's work'. The idea that they are somehow trapped in a masculine hell because they have to kill bugs or work on the car is childish and delusional. There are MILLIONS of men who don't do such things and they would punch you in the face if you called them a sissy because of it. There are millions more who are just not very traditionally masculine yet are completely straight and have no problem being men. The nebbishy Woody Allen type comes to mind.

A man who is trapped in a life of rigid expectations of masculinity is living in a trap that he created himself. I don't blame him because as a closet queen for many many years I totally understand the comfort of "being a man" when you look like one. The larger point here is one that I keep trying to get across to the closet cases and it nearly always falls on deaf eyes; You don't need to 'come out' as a CD to be an authentic person, you just need to come out as an authentic person.

Cross-dressing can be a private activity, but you can still be a man who doesn't like to work on cars, or who doesn't like sports, or who likes to shop with his wife. In my case I never felt masculine but near the end of my closeted existence I was a man who enjoyed racing dirt-bikes but didn't like working on them. I would get the occasional snide comment when my cousin would take over the track-side maintenance for me, or load my bike for me, but by then I wasn't afraid anymore so I just cracked wise myself. I was no longer pretending to be interested in football, or a gazillion different things, and I was amazed at how okay it was. I was gay (or so I thought) but most people didn't know that and more importantly they didn't assume it as far as I knew.

I was just a guy who liked SOME guy stuff and didn't like some OTHER guy stuff. Any macho dude who wanted to call me out on my lack of manliness didn't get the response he was expecting. I don't back down from anyone and it's not because I'm some bad-ass, it's simply because I'm not afraid. Most of the manly men who CD here have rugged masculine personas that they are afraid of losing by just being who they are but I'm here to tell you that nobody will assume all of the things you're afraid they're going to assume. I was openly gay, yet many people STILL didn't think I was gay. If you are a regular dude who isn't afraid of getting in someone's face if they disrespect your wife, then why do you think that has to change if you admit to everyone that killing spiders creeps you out? Or if you like shopping for shoes with your girlfriend? Nobody has to know that you like to cross-dress, but don't you want them to know who you really are outside of that? If you're a guy who likes MMA and Rupaul, who would give a shit?

I say come out, but not as a CD. Come out as a real man, a real complex man with varied interests. Eventually you will develop a circle of friends who really know you and after a few years you might forget why you were EVER closeted.

MatildaJ.

01-04-2014, 06:58 PM

Brynna, I hope you will buy yourself some tulips! How could anyone object to that, or if they did, why would you care what such a person thought? As for dancing -- if you can afford a wii system there's a "Just Dance" game that puts up a girl dancing and you follow along. My husband looks better than I do when following her sexy moves!

- and yes I wish I didn't bear total responsibility for the cars and the yard maintenance without my agreement simply because "those are man things.

How bad would the fall-out be if you said you were done with that maintenance and it would be done by professionals now? Can your family afford that by cutting back elsewhere? Or could you rethink your lives to move to a smaller place without a yard, or a more urban neighborhood with better public transportation?

I was just a guy who liked SOME guy stuff and didn't like some OTHER guy stuff...Nobody has to know that you like to cross-dress, but don't you want them to know who you really are outside of that? ... I say come out, but not as a CD. Come out as a real man, a real complex man with varied interests.

Brilliantly said, Badtranny!

One of the things I admire about my friends who are in same-sex marriages or relationships is how they navigate these roles openly and at a practical level...However, many CDers enter into more traditional relationships in an attempt to conform or "cure" themselves. That can make changing these roles more difficult.

Good point, Ashley.

PaulaQ

01-04-2014, 07:26 PM

I say come out, but not as a CD. Come out as a real man, a real complex man with varied interests. Eventually you will develop a circle of friends who really know you and after a few years you might forget why you were EVER closeted.

1. That's neat for California and stuff. Here in Texas, where I grew up, they murdered (I mean this quite literally) the one openly gay kid in our school. It ain't like San Francisco too many other places. In fact, I can think of about maybe 2-3 others in the US.

2. Hey, I hate to break it to you, but you kind of failed at the "complex man" thing, since you are a woman now. Just sayin'...

I don't argue that much of the prison that contains so many of us is built in our own minds. What a lot of you really fail to comprehend is that it's built as a defense mechanism. When you are a kid, and defenseless, and some overbearing grown up beats your ass for acting like "a faggot", you learn to hide things.

The expectations of society are pretty rigid for both genders - but when you have men building up a defensive shell made of this crap, the problem isn't so much that they are tired of it - the problem is they are tired of feeling like they are in prison, in solitary confinement. That's certainly how I felt.

Tearing down the walls that constrained who I really am was one of the most emotionally traumatic experiences I've ever gone through. I felt like I was losing my mind at times, and I nearly didn't survive it.

It isn't what we're made to do that is so bad - it's what we feel we can never expose.

People here keep looking at the visible stuff - the directly observable things. It isn't about that. It's the negative stuff, the invisible stuff, the stuff that is desired, but seemingly unobtainable. And sure, most of this is in our heads - but there are often real, and negative consequences to exhibiting these behaviors. If there weren't, we wouldn't have GG's here seeking support. (No offense ladies - it isn't your fault either, you are just as much a victim here as anyone else.)

Michelle789

01-04-2014, 07:37 PM

There are few gender variant tolerant places in the USA.
1. San Francisco/San Jose/bay area
2. Los Angeles/Long Beach/Ventura
3. Palm Springs (but not the rest of the Coachella Valley) - Palm Springs has a huge gay population

Maybe tolerant places - I'm basing this on a list of states that have transgender protection laws so it's purely speculation
1. Seattle
2. Minneapolis
3. Boston
4. NYC

Even DC isn't tolerant. I tried buying women's clothes in DC and got rude comments from the SA's on several occasions. I never had any trouble shopping in California.

I'm pretty sure Bakersfield ain't tolerant.

NathalieX66

01-04-2014, 07:49 PM

Michele789, you left out New Jersey, eastern Pennsylvania, and Maryland. If I can walk into a Dunkin Donuts in a working class neighborhood of Baltimore wearing a dress and not have people bat an eye, and get decent service, then I've won the game. I don't believe America is self righteous Old Testament Bible-thumping meanies.

I've been fortunate to have been in the transgender community up and down the east coast, and have had the opportunity of comparing notes between crossdressers and transsexuals that I've met, and everyone in between. I like it here.

Michelle789

01-04-2014, 08:02 PM

NathalieX66 - I'm really happy to hear that. That gives me hope. So maybe it's not as bad as 2-3 places. I guess the more liberal east and west coast places are tolerant, while the conservative south and middle America are not. There are plenty of people from the south and midwest who will tell you tales of intolerance, violence, and even murder to LGBT people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_States

The above article gives us a good indication of LGBT tolerance in the USA. Look under anti-discrimination section for states where you're job and housing are protected by state law. Most of the states that offer protection to transgender people are in the northeast, west coast, and a few in the middle of the country. These states are probably the most trans-friendly states. As you see, not a single southern state, including Texas, has any anti-discrimination laws for gender identity.

But the fact that so many states are more trans-friendly gives me hope. Besides, the states that are the most tolerant are the ones that have all the high-paying jobs, right. I mean, who goes to Arkansas or Alabama for a high-paying career job? Not many people. Lots of people go to NYC, NJ, SF, LA, and Seattle for high-paying jobs.

Badtranny

01-04-2014, 10:19 PM

1. That's neat for California and stuff. Here in Texas, where I grew up, they murdered (I mean this quite literally) the one openly gay kid in our school. It ain't like San Francisco too many other places. In fact, I can think of about maybe 2-3 others in the US.

2. Hey, I hate to break it to you, but you kind of failed at the "complex man" thing, since you are a woman now. Just sayin'...

Well, you've completely missed my point.

Let me repeat the part about NOT coming out as a CD, and assuming "being authentic" doesn't in fact mean you become a flaming queen, then I stand by my comments.

Yes I failed at being a masculine man, then I failed at being an openly gay man, then I failed at being a cross-dresser, then I decided to transition and ....SUCCESS!

I'm also assuming that the average cross-dresser doesn't want to transition, because if that's the case than my advice definitely missed the mark. I was talking to the guys who feel like they must dress like a woman before they can be authentic. I say that's nonsense. They can keep the dressing private thus maintain their precious manhood yet be a more sensitive or interesting man in the light of day. I seriously doubt the Texans are going to get too upset if a guy likes to sew or cook or watch Project Runway. I'm saying be as manly as you really are in the pursuit of things you enjoy like hunting or boxing or whatever the hell you enjoy, and just be honest about the things you don't enjoy doing. If one of your macho buddies gives you lip, just give it back to him.

It's simply preposterous to act like a macho jerk all day and then flounce around calling yourself Kendra at night. Just relax your rigid attitude about who you're supposed to be. Try being sweeter to people or openly enjoy watching chick flicks with your wife. Whatever your 'thing' is, just try and be a real and complete person. If your personality changes due to fabric or the lack of it, then you have issues that need to be explored. You have a bifurcation that needs to be mended. Allow yourself to be the person that you are and the clothes will become less important.

Michelle789

01-04-2014, 10:53 PM

Misty, you have some valid points here. There are many different paths and each of us is different. Some of us need to transition. Some with SRS, others without SRS. Others can dress up sometimes and incorporate feminine behaviors into ourselves when in male mode. Some of us need to dress publicly, others can just dress privately. Acting macho is a necessary survival trait and it takes courage and time to unlearn it, but it can be done. In some places, it's really necessary to be macho.

But the fact is prejudice and violence is real. Some places see prejudice and violence worse than others. Texas isn't as open-minded as California and threats of violence are real. It depends on what part of Texas or California too. In San Francisco, Los Angeles, or parts of Dallas, Houston, Austin, or San Antonio, it's probably not necessary to act macho. In Bakersfield or most of Texas, it probably is necessary to act macho. And it was far worse 30-40 years ago than it is today. Hopefully, we continue to progress towards more acceptance, but for now we have to accept reality that brutal violence towards LGBT really does happen, be aware of it, but live and hope for the best.

MissTee

01-04-2014, 11:08 PM

It's good that you asked this question, JessM. As a man, I enjoy being the leader of so many things in so many ways for my family. I wouldn't ever won't to give it up completely. That said, the stress that builds from having to be constantly unflappable, strong, logical, aggressive, and all the while bottle up my emotions can be debilitating at times.

Dressing provides a way to rest and recharge "on the other side" where I perceive I don't have to do any of that -- where my soul can laugh, cry, twirl, dance, sing and be at peace for a brief period and my mind can feel unencumbered by responsibility. The clothes provide an added ambiance to the experience of that escape. Likewise, the act of preparing for and then actually dressing is indeed physical process of unwinding from the accumulated stress. At the risk of sounding brash, dressing is at times like a foreplay for the mind in transitioning to a different place.

Over the years I've learned it works best for me to dress in regular doses versus starve-then-binge. I'm thankful for a supportive wife who gets that, and enjoys my company in either pant or skirt.

All that said, I feel that even if life gifted me richly and all I had to do all day was relax on a sunny beach and listen to the waves crash and then lap against the shoreline, there's still girl in me somewhere at the molecular level. No doubt, then, I would occasionally want to enjoy that beach in a too cute, flouncy skirted one piece swimsuit, a matching tote, and a pair of adorable little flower topped beach sandals :battingeyelashes:

MatildaJ.

01-05-2014, 12:12 AM

But, MissTee, couldn't you let yourself be a little flappable, non-aggressive & emotional, even in drab? Are the roles really enforced so strictly that it's easier for a man to be emotional in a dress than in jeans?

PaulaQ

01-05-2014, 01:40 AM

Allow yourself to be the person that you are and the clothes will become less important.

It is interesting that you assert this despite all the evidence to the contrary. Do you present as male often ? I don't do it at all anymore, last time I tried it was too taxing emotionally, never again.

Why is it difficult to imagine that what a CD goes through is similar but of a lesser intensity as the GD we suffer from? They need a vacation in girl town sometimes, and in their minds the way there is through clothes. There are exceptions, but most of them I know of involve behavior that would not be accepted as masculine in many places.

The things you suggest are simply insufficient for many of the CDs out there.

Are the roles really enforced so strictly that it's easier for a man to be emotional in a dress than in jeans?

He'll yes they are enforced that rigidly!!!! Neither woman I married could handle any display of emotion on my part . My current wife completely freaked if I displayed uncertainty. I had to be decisive and confident all the time. At jobs I've had - are you kidding me? I can't imagine crying at work - my management wouldn't have tolerated it . In school it was made VERY clear to me that boys don't cry.

This stuff isn't easy to turn on and off.

Michelle789

01-05-2014, 02:46 AM

He'll yes they are enforced that rigidly!!!! Neither woman I married could handle any display of emotion on my part . My current wife completely freaked if I displayed uncertainty. I had to be decisive and confident all the time. At jobs I've had - are you kidding me? I can't imagine crying at work - my management wouldn't have tolerated it . In school it was made VERY clear to me that boys don't cry.

Prejudice towards gender variant behavior ranges from murder to subtle discrimination.

Sometimes it takes extreme forms like murder or brutal beatings.

Sometimes it takes more subtle forms like getting excluded from the clique, getting shunned, getting passed over for a promotion or raise, or getting laughed at or teased.

Sometimes it takes an in between form of verbal harassment, or someone yelling and screaming at you, or telling you to "figure it out", or to "man up".

I got bullied on one of my previous jobs - my boss always said "figure it out" when I asked for help.

I lost another of my previous jobs because of lack of confidence, even though my boss wasn't exactly the most confident person either.

Someone that I really trusted, a psychic, told me to "man up" and she yelled at me when she said it. She also told me that "gender confusion comes from the devil".

I got bullied in school, and when I went to file a complaint to the principal, the administrators told me that I need to learn to deal with bullies on my own, and that I can't always keep filing complaints.

And plenty of people have been through much worse than I have been.

No wonder men can be such jerks sometimes. They're forced to be.

Badtranny

01-05-2014, 02:47 AM

It is interesting that you assert this despite all the evidence to the contrary. Do you present as male often ? I don't do it at all anymore, last time I tried it was too taxing emotionally, never again.

Again Paula, completely missing the point but you're not the only one so I'm clearly not getting my point across very well. Obviously I don't make an effort to present as male but I have curves and huge boobs so I don't have much of a choice. My transition is complete. I wasn't trying to advise people that are in transition and maybe that was my mistake. I have very little experience with cross-dressing so perhaps I'm completely wrong, but I don't consider them to be frustrated transsexuals. I consider them to be men who enjoy cross-dressing because they feel some need to express some kind of 'femininity' and they don't know how to do it any other way.

All I'm trying to say is maybe they should consider the crazy idea of trying to find ways to work their real personality into their real lives. I am not saying they should come out as TS or CD or anything too freaky, just be three dimensional men. Clearly this concept is too progressive for this forum but I pity anyone who is so ruled by fear that they can't even admit to enjoying a sappy movie or a pedicure with their daughter.

Whatever, it makes no difference to me.

Michelle789

01-05-2014, 03:04 AM

All I'm trying to say is maybe they should consider the crazy idea of trying to find ways to work their real personality into their real lives. I am not saying they should come out as TS or CD or anything too freaky, just be three dimensional men. Clearly this concept is too progressive for this forum but I pity anyone who is so ruled by fear that they can't even admit to enjoying a sappy movie or a pedicure with their daughter.

It isn't this forum that has a problem with your ideas. It's society. Although most CDs don't achieve your ideas there are a small percentage that do. There are threads about incorporating femininity into male mode, and several people on this forum do so, but only a few. Why? Society frowns upon it, sometimes brutally. And in California, we have it easy compared to other places. Your ideas may work better in some geographic locations than others. In Texas, your ideas probably won't work any time soon, except maybe in Austin. In the west coast and northeast, they may work for a few CDs.

Many CDs need to separate male and female expression due to societal constraints, thus making it difficult to incorporate your ideas. Once again, it's not that this forum is against your ideas, but society makes it difficult to practice them. Most of this forum doesn't live in San Francisco or Los Angeles.

And there are some TS girls pre-transition, and some CDs, and some gays, that just have difficulty hiding femininity, and they pay for it, some worse than others. Some get laughed at, some get shunned, some get killed. Some places are more tolerant than others.

PaulaQ

01-05-2014, 03:28 AM

I have very little experience with cross-dressing so perhaps I'm completely wrong, but I don't consider them to be frustrated transsexuals. I consider them to be men who enjoy cross-dressing because they feel some need to express some kind of 'femininity' and they don't know how to do it any other way.

Yep, that's where you are going wrong all right.

All I'm trying to say is maybe they should consider the crazy idea of trying to find ways to work their real personality into their real lives. I am not saying they should come out as TS or CD or anything too freaky, just be three dimensional men. Clearly this concept is too progressive for this forum but I pity anyone who is so ruled by fear that they can't even admit to enjoying a sappy movie or a pedicure with their daughter.

I'm saying that as a non-CD who was fine being identified as a gay man until you transitioned, that you just don't have a whole bunch of understanding of what many CDs here go through. Want to express some femininity? Fine - people will assume you are gay because this is the only template of gender variance most heteronormative folks have. This is fine if you are attempting to live as a gay man (I know this didn't work for you), but for a suburban dude in normalsville, this is going to cause problems.

And yes, you should feel sympathy for people who are so ruled by fear. It's a horrible feeling - one you obviously don't understand well. You can keep your pity though. Nobody here wants it.

Teresa

01-05-2014, 09:16 AM

I'm not tired of the things I do as a man I was brought with the attitude of there's no such word as can't, so I would have been a trier but my sister is also a trier . I have probably achieved more as a man, but then we have a spanner in the works some how in my brain a streak of femininity crept in maybe even from birth and it's very hard if not impossible to ignore because it's always there it gives me something a man's life can never give.

MissTee

01-05-2014, 09:50 AM

. . . couldn't you let yourself be a little flappable . . .

In a way, JessM, that's like asking if I couldn't just not dress. Decades of social and peer conditioning, training in the formative years which led to permanent brain and behavior wiring, blah-blah-blah. It could also be part of the male DNA that I just can't explain. In any event, the package has helped helped me be very successful in the drab universe and I'm not looking to alter that. I've simply learned to be OK with dressing, use it in a way that works for me, and not beat myself up for doing it.

On a related note, I think my wife and I spent a good 10-12 years trying to figure it all out. Pepper in some counseling (total waste of time) and we finally decided that we're both good with it, and not to try and read too much into it. Being in this forum has helped to fill in some of the blanks.

NicoleScott

01-05-2014, 09:54 AM

Responses are all over the place, as Laura predicted in the first reply (Post #2), because we are different. There are men who like being men and accept the role but just like to dress up (the CD) , there are men who don't like being men (the TG -they have hijacked the term "transgender" for themselves), and there are those who aren't men but are stuck with male bodies and the expectations that come with a penis (the TS).
For those who don't like the expectations your SO has, did you let her know that from the beginning?
For every expectation for being male there is an expectation for being female. The guy that is expected to fix the car seems to be totally unable to operate a needle and thread to sew on a button. At work , there was a department meeting - about 8 men and one woman - guess who was asked to make coffee.
Women complaining about male privilige and men complaining about male responsibility are two sides of the same coin.

Marcelle

01-05-2014, 10:16 AM

Hi JessM,

Very interesting question and one I have not given any thought to simply because I cannot explain why I do what I do. Adhering to stereotypical roles . . . I do that not because it is expected but because I truly enjoy doing them. For example, I love being a solider is that the realm of men in Canada . . . nope as there are plenty of female combat soldiers. They like me do it because they enjoy it. I fix cars, do renovations, clear brush, play sports but then again so do women. I also enjoy cooking and absolutely love to vacuum. I don't do these things en femme (okay sometimes) I do them because I love to do them.

So what does that leave . . . the dressing I guess. Yes, I love the feel of women's clothing on my body and I love the fact that I can now go out in public dressed as such and I don't care. Do I do it so I can stop feeling like a man . . . nope. One look at me will only confirm that I am a guy and no amount of clothing or make-up is going to change that.

When I get together with my friends who know about Isha whether I am en femme or en boy, I talk about the same things as my likes, dislikes and vices have not changed . . . so still very much a guy. However, the one thing I do know that I enjoy "en femme" which I cannot "en boy" is a calming effect I get when I am with my GG friends. Our conversations are the same as when I am "en boy" but for some reason their acceptance of me is akin to the same acceptance I feel when I with my guy friends "en boy". May seem silly, but I feel a greater affinity to my GG friends when I am Isha then when I am "en boy"

So that is the one thing that I find differs. Other than that . . . same old, same old whether I am in skirt and heels or a suit and tie.

Hugs

Isha

Teresa

01-05-2014, 10:22 AM

Nicole I can mend a car ( I'm quite good at breaking them!), but when some clothes came through too big I taught myself to use a sewing machine, shortened the hem took the sides in, but gave the game away, I left the thread in, not a colour the wife had been using.

kimdl93

01-05-2014, 12:51 PM

In my vunderstanding, this post askes if 'escape from the responsibilities of being a man is a motivator for CDing. I agree with Nicole that there are perhaps as many motivators for CDing as there are CDrs. I also submit that this question is less relevant to TG or TS people, or those who cd as a fetish or for the sheer fun of dressing up. It seems that if an individual sees CDing as a way to escape perceived 'male' responsibility they are fixing the wrong problem with the wrong solution.

Badtranny

01-05-2014, 01:02 PM

And yes, you should feel sympathy for people who are so ruled by fear. It's a horrible feeling - one you obviously don't understand well. .

For the last time, I never suggested that dudes should ACT feminine. I assure you there are big manly Texans who are doing everything I'm suggesting and nobody thinks they're gay or CD's.

I guess on this forum, being anything less than cartoonishly macho is tantamount to being gay. I think I'm beginning to understand why women think it's so awful to be married to a CD. Here's a hint, it ain't the cross-dressing that's the problem.

***edit***

I had a rash of PM's after this post, all supportive except for one. Since I detest writing in PM's because I'd rather not let people hide their opinions from the board, I'm adding some thoughts here.

I was speaking to the guys that feel like they have to be macho jerks lest someone will "know". I was speaking to the dudes that feel like they have to be dressed up before they can listen to Britney or watch a chick flick, or just be a sweetie to someone. The guys that have nearly split personalities who feel like they MUST pretend to like sports or love working on cars.

I'm just saying if you don't like working on cars, then stop doing it. If you don't like hunting, then stop doing it. I'm just trying to get across that there are plenty of manly men as well as not so manly men who don't hunt and fish, and I know really tough looking dudes that would think nothing of getting a mani/pedi with their wives or daughters. I don't know too many guys that would get in their face about it either. I am NOT saying dudes should flame out and be fabulous, I'm just saying they can relax a little and start enjoying their lives a bit WITHOUT coming out as anything other than an interesting dude. Not a feminine dude, just a regular guy who is okay with taking his car to the shop, or letting a buddy work on his motorcycle. Be manly in the ways that you enjoy. Just be real.

Cross-dress in private if you want, nobody has to know what you do behind closed doors. I'm not suggesting that being yourself will "cure" you of cross-dressing, I'm just saying that you might be happier if you stop volunteering to do things you hate doing.

I met a fireman once who had beautiful nails. Not girly, just well kept, and believe me this dude was ALL man. ;-)

The answer is learning to be confident in your masculinity. Once you realize you have nothing to prove, you'll stop trying so hard to prove something.

PaulaQ

01-05-2014, 04:17 PM

Misty, I am unsurprised that mine was the only unsupportive email you received. My opinion is in the minority here, and always has been. This won't change. I do feel it is pretty unfair of you to accuse me of hiding behind a PM - I have been pretty directly critical of you in this thread because I think you are wrong, and that you are totally missing the point.

And if you were in front of me, and said 'I pity these guys' which is what you said here, I'd tell you 'how dare you condescend to these people!'

It is unfair of you to take out your own insecurities on others. These men have real problems that aren't going to be solved by listening to Beyoncé's latest.

Edit: what I find so interesting, hon, is why you are so passionate about arguing over a topic you ADMIT you don't understand. Why is that?

Now someone could say of me that I'm trans and that my views are skewed. That's no doubt true - but I lived as on overcompensating closeted CD off and on for 40 years of my life, and I am telling you flat out that you simply have no idea what you are talking about here, and are attempting to cover that with your defense mechanisms of snark and hot air. Why is that?

MatildaJ.

01-05-2014, 05:15 PM

I hope this can stay civil; I think we all only want everyone to have as easy a life as possible.

Neither woman I married could handle any display of emotion on my part . My current wife completely freaked if I displayed uncertainty. I had to be decisive and confident all the time. At jobs I've had - are you kidding me? I can't imagine crying at work - my management wouldn't have tolerated it.

Paula, why did you marry two women who couldn't handle you being at all sensitive or emotional? That's a serious question -- did you believe at the time that you could go through the rest of your life being the strong, stoic one? Or did you think they would change?

Also, about the workplace, I should say that women aren't allowed to cry there either. Not anywhere I've ever worked, anyway.

Aprilrain

01-05-2014, 05:29 PM

I lived as on overcompensating closeted CD off and on for 40 years of my life,

Paula, isn't it fair to say that you only thought you were a CDer? perhaps even hoped you were a CDer! but in reality you were TS... right? I mean, CDers don't just suddenly become TSes, you either are or you are not. That being said can you see that your experience would be different than your average CDer who is OK with being a guy?

Anyway I think Misty makes some good points.

PaulaQ

01-05-2014, 05:34 PM

Paula, why did you marry two women who couldn't handle you being at all sensitive or emotional? That's a serious question -- did you believe at the time that you could go through the rest of your life being the strong, stoic one? Or did you think they would change?

I didn't realize that's what I was getting myself into - my second wife was VERY independent. When we met. When we moved in together, for example, she wanted to split the rent and bills 50/50, even though I made about 3x her income. She got pissed off at me for trying to setup the VCR, instead of letting her do it. She had her own job and career path. I always encouraged her to educate herself and encouraged her to pursue a career and her dreams. She seemed so strong when I met her. She changed, or maybe I overlooked something fundamental, or maybe I somehow undermined her, in the most loving, but enabling way.

I don't have an answer to that question, and I know I need to address it. I'm trying to fit in some codependence support groups, or al-anon (both deal with this issue extensively), but my support group schedule is really full right now. So that may have to wait a little bit - I seem to be at my limit of things I can work on about myself currently. I am very aware and concerned about this however, and I fully intend to come to an understanding of it, such as I can. I'd really like to do this sooner, rather than later.

Also, about the workplace, I should say that women aren't allowed to cry there either. Not anywhere I've ever worked, anyway.

No, they are not allowed to do that either. But while a woman who cries at work will be seen as "weak", a man who cries will be seen as having a complete meltdown. The corporate world is pretty cruel to everyone, and neglect of your family and social life are actively encouraged in many corporations. We are all supposed to be little emotionless drones, doing our job, while the sociopaths who frequently rule us rage on.

Paula, isn't it fair to say that you only thought you were a CDer? perhaps even hoped you were a CDer! but in reality you were TS... right? I mean, CDers don't just suddenly become TSes, you either are or you are not.

1. I believe I acknowledged this.
2. every TS I know who CDed at an early age wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Do you think that some number of the folks on this forum are any different? You want to know how you can tell the "future" TS girls apart from the "just a CDer?" You can't. (Believe me, plenty of folks on the TS forum here flatly told me that I wasn't a TS, but a CD. Either they were wrong, or the system is broken, and I'm insane. Take your pick.) Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

More to the point, what part of being terrified of discovery, and hiding something fundamental about myself seems fundamentally different between a CDing TS and a CDer? The gay guys in my LGBT AA group often have very similar experiences of hiding and shame. I'm not a gay man, but I totally understand how they feel. Hiding something fundamental about how you are is a horrible and negating experience.

I find it fascinating that women who tell others, before they start transition, "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

What is up with that? Were you never afraid?

edit: one last note - it isn't so much that I think BT's suggestions are unhelpful, particularly coming from someone who has no firsthand experience with the matter. Hey, for some people, what she suggests might work. It was the condescension implied in the word "pity" that really sets me off. NO ONE on this forum is any less, nor is there suffering any less real than ANY TS.

Angela Campbell

01-05-2014, 05:56 PM

every TS I know who CDed at an early age wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Do you think that some number of the folks on this forum are any different? You want to know how you can tell the "future" TS girls apart from the "just a CDer?" You can't. (Believe me, plenty of folks on the TS forum here flatly told me that I wasn't a TS, but a CD. Either they were wrong, or the system is broken, and I'm insane. Take your pick.) Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

Not every one. I crossdressed at an early age...around 4 or so....and I always knew I was a girl, even before I knew there was such a word as transsexual. Did I want to be a crossdresser? No! I wanted to be a girl. When asked why I crossdressed my response was..."it is the only way I can find to make me look like a girl".

How do you tell a ts girl apart from "just a cd"? You cannot, but many times they know. (I did)

PaulaQ

01-05-2014, 06:00 PM

How do you tell a ts girl apart? You cannot, but many times they know.

Thanks Angela, you are right, and I stand corrected. I should have said that I know many trans women, like me, who didn't have the courage to admit what they knew, or couldn't figure it out for themselves, who wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Once you are married and have a couple of kids, the impetus to stay in denial is quite powerful, and the fears about consequences are quite real.

Michelle789

01-05-2014, 06:08 PM

The corporate world is pretty cruel to everyone, and neglect of your family and social life are actively encouraged in many corporations.

This is the worst of male behavior and male privilege. To me, the way corporations treat employees is the same thing as men being jerks. Men and women who don't want to go along with the corporate game are viewed as sissies and face problems of their own in keeping a job or getting a promotion. And it is caused by men, since men run the corporate world.

Someone (a GG) once told me that to get to the top, you have to be a man, preferably white, who thinks and acts like a white man. This means gender variants who don't act like men are screwed. Women are screwed. Non-whites are screwed. Even white men who don't act white get screwed. Many other cultures aren't so workaholic like the white man.

NO ONE on this forum is any less, nor is there suffering any less real than ANY TS.

That's right. CD and TS and other gender variants all have real issues, and real suffering. The issues may be fundamentally different, while some overlap - we all try to hide a fundamental part of ourselves from others. But we all suffer.

MatildaJ.

01-05-2014, 06:10 PM

She seemed so strong when I met her. She changed, or maybe I overlooked something fundamental, or maybe I somehow undermined her, in the most loving, but enabling way.

Sounds like you're saying it's possible that you brought gender rigidity to the marriage, and boxed both of you in so that she had to be the weak one and you had to be the strong one. I think what BadTranny and I are talking about is trying to encourage people to do as much as they can to break down those rigid boxes, even without coming out of any kind of closet.

I find it fascinating that women who tell others... "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

I'm a fan of more cultural change, of the sort that led to women being able to wear pants and men being able to have long hair. I encourage everyone to try to get past the rigid boxes. For most men, that won't mean wearing lipstick or stockings. But it might mean letting yourself cry in front of your wife; taking your car to a mechanic; staying home with the children while your wife brings in the salary; or dancing however you want to dance, at least in the privacy of your own home.

PaulaQ

01-05-2014, 06:22 PM

Sounds like you're saying it's possible that you brought gender rigidity to the marriage, and boxed both of you in so that she had to be the weak one and you had to be the strong one.

No, I don't think that's the entire story. My wife's father was a VERY weak man. She hated him - a lot. In her mind, men who showed weakness weren't men at all. Her step-dad, who she idolized was a hard driving, man's man. So you combine that with my fortress like walls of gender bullshit, and yeah, you wind up with where we ended up as soon as the idea of "yep, I'm a girl" comes up. It wasn't obvious to me at the time. I knew, but denied my own issues. I never knew about her relationship with her father (she didn't even speak to him when we married - I could relate, I didn't speak to my dad either), until years later, when I watched her interact with him.

Having never watched such a dynamic play out, I don't think there's any way I could've predicted all this, at least at the outset.

I am going to be mindful of my habit of trying to rescue people though. It is a real character failing on my part when I apply it to relationships.

I think what BadTranny and I are talking about is trying to encourage people to do as much as they can to break down those rigid boxes, even without coming out of any kind of closet.

I agree with this, and like the way you said it - there was no implicit condescension in what you said. The rigid boxes our society places us in makes the problems of gender variant individuals MUCH worse. Unfortunately, I don't think that breaking down the boxes will fix all this stuff. It will just let us deal with it openly, honestly, and humanely.

I'm a fan of more cultural change, of the sort that led to women being able to wear pants and men being able to have long hair. I encourage everyone to try to get past the rigid boxes. For most men, that won't mean wearing lipstick or stockings. But it might mean letting yourself cry in front of your wife; taking your car to a mechanic; staying home with the children while your wife brings in the salary; or dancing however you want to dance, at least in the privacy of your own home.[/QUOTE]

Badtranny

01-05-2014, 07:19 PM

Edit: what I find so interesting, hon, is why you are so passionate about arguing over a topic you ADMIT you don't understand. Why is that?

Passionate?

I wouldn't say I cared that much, I just don't like to be misunderstood or worse, mis-characterized. My own insecurities? That makes me LOL.

I admit that my cross-dressing experience was rather limited but I WAS in the closet for most of my life so far because I thought I was gay. I was a bonafide park cruising closet queen who's blown a dude in an adult book store or two. During the light of day, I was a full on pretender who would work out a lot, talk about guns a lot and even pushed a couple of weaker guys around to prove my manhood. I was raised in a little crap hole town in way Southern Louisiana and spent my early adult life in Bakersfield CA, so I know a little bit about rigid gender roles and being on the down low among fearsome redneck assholes.

Sure I wasn't cross-dressing, but I was a self hating closet queer who was doing things that were a LOT more dangerous than CD'ing with my wife. You think I don't know about over compensation? I did all kinds of things that I didn't want to do just so nobody would think I was a fag. I didn't drink a drop of alcohol throughout my twenties because I was afraid I would get drunk and forget to watch my posture, or my body language, or whatever. I guess I was afraid I would be a big drunk queen for some reason so I stayed sober until I was almost 30 and began to get a little more comfortable with myself, but it wasn't until I was 37 or so that I started coming out. Slowly.

I'm talking to people that identify as men, yet are not secure in their own masculinity. I'm telling them to do the work and become secure in who they are and expand the definition of what a "real" man is because their current line of thinking is no way to live.

Anyhoo, I'm beginning to grow weary of this conversation.

ReineD

01-05-2014, 07:27 PM

I'm just saying if you don't like working on cars, then stop doing it. If you don't like hunting, then stop doing it. I'm just trying to get across that there are plenty of manly men as well as not so manly men who don't hunt and fish, and I know really tough looking dudes that would think nothing of getting a mani/pedi with their wives or daughters. I don't know too many guys that would get in their face about it either. I am NOT saying dudes should flame out and be fabulous, I'm just saying they can relax a little and start enjoying their lives a bit WITHOUT coming out as anything other than an interesting dude. Not a feminine dude, just a regular guy who is okay with taking his car to the shop, or letting a buddy work on his motorcycle. Be manly in the ways that you enjoy. Just be real.

Cross-dress in private if you want, nobody has to know what you do behind closed doors. I'm not suggesting that being yourself will "cure" you of cross-dressing, I'm just saying that you might be happier if you stop volunteering to do things you hate doing.

The answer is learning to be confident in your masculinity. Once you realize you have nothing to prove, you'll stop trying so hard to prove something.

Misty, thank you for posting this!

I've observed over the years CDers who prefer to split their personalities and likes and dislikes into activities that only the "reluctant he" or the "suppressed she" can do. They do not allow themselves to do certain things they enjoy in guy mode, and they do things in guy mode that they hate. Even my SO for years felt that as a guy he shouldn't collect art and take ballroom dance lessons because ... I don't know ... maybe some people would guess who s/he was inside? It's all better now, my SO has fully integrated herself and is all that much happier for it. :)

The members who split themselves up do seem to have pretty strict, stereotypical gender role boxes. I do think they would benefit by allowing their preferences to come to the surface in guy mode, even if they chose to keep the CDing private from most people in their lives.

Live and learn.

Aprilrain

01-05-2014, 08:13 PM

Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

I find it fascinating that women who tell others, before they start transition, "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

Not only do you have a chip on your shoulder you seem to like to put words in peoples mouths.

I never said your experience was irrelevant, just different. You are TS are you not? Then your experience is different from your average heterosexual, CDer.

I'm not telling anyone "you go girl" or "its all good" nor is Misty. NO ONE is saying you have to shout "I'm a CDer" from the roof tops all she is saying, and I agree, is that its possible to be a regular joe without putting on airs of machismo BS.

What "water" is it that you imagine I or Misty or any other TS posting here is suggesting someone dip their toe in??

PaulaQ

01-05-2014, 08:44 PM

I never said your experience was irrelevant, just different. You are TS are you not? Then your experience is different from your average heterosexual, CDer.

I disagree that it is fundamentally different, except in degree. Most of these people are experiencing minor degrees of GD, and it is manifesting itself in terms of cross dressing. The behavior between someone like me, and someone like them is indistinguishable except after the fact. I'd like to know why you think it is fundamentally different, other than that would be SUPER convenient and WAY less scary for many on this forum. I'm sorry, but that just isn't how it seems to me. People here have good reasons to be afraid.

As for a chip on my shoulder, sure. Misty waltzes in here, spouts off on something she admittedly doesn't know anything about, and then talks about "pity" for the folks who overcompensate. I think that is massively condescending, and I won't stand for that type of treatment of other members.

Gee, I know plenty of TS girls who massively overcompensated because GD made them scared and it also frequently made them angry miserable people to be around. Doesn't that sound a whole lot like a CDer who overcompensates and is angry and miserable to be around when they don't CD for a while? It differs in degree, but the behaviors seem a whole lot alike to me.

I know several people on this forum who've tried, either deliberately or inadvertently, to incorporate feminine behaviors into their lives. About the best you can really get away with is to stop massively overcompensating. Some of the ones I know have suffered for their behavior.

My objection is the overall lack of sympathy, the condescending snark, and general blathering about a topic she knows nothing about. If she'd cut the "pity" crap, I wouldn't have said a word, except perhaps to disagree with her.

Stephanie Julianna

01-05-2014, 09:04 PM

I'm sure that some of us would like to shead all the male responsibilities in our relationships. However, in a good marriage each partner takes on the tasks they can handle best. So I do all the home repairs and contract out what I don't know how to do. I work on all the cars and love it when I get one of the old ones purring. I love remodeling parts of the house to the point that my wife does not want me to start any more projects. I love sharing my opinion with her when we watch "Say Yes to the Dresss" or "Beverly Hills Wives." She won't see me dressed and never will. Her wishes. She hates housekeeping, doing the laundry or loading the dishwasher. I don't mind it at all. She brings in the bigger bucks while I make woman's wages as a nurse so the least I can do is clean. But when we go out, I'm the male. There is nothing femmie about me in drab. I keep the girly mannerisms for my dress up days and even those are very subtle. Only drag queens wave all over the place because they don't want to blend. I do. I can live like this for a long time and already have.

MissTee

01-05-2014, 09:34 PM

The members who split themselves up . . .

Hey, Reine, I resemble that remark :doh::D

Seriously, it's not that black and white. Try as we may to compartmentalize the genders into neat, sterile dimensions forever, it's simply the start of a very long journey. Quoting my wife, ". . . after a while seepage starts to occur. You can't completely rid yourself of one in exchange for the other as you once did. With every round trip more sticks and less gets left behind. Thus, it doesn't matter how good you may think you are at concealing things, it starts to show and people start to notice."

So, what I've observed is we all do this differently and in the end that has to be okay. My generation equipped itself with some pretty strong anti-CD sentiments. More recent generations not so much so. No doubt, then, we'll make the journey at different individual speeds (and I will mirror the tortoise more than the hare.) Most importantly, we have to love ourselves and who we are lest we become disfunctional or worse. It took me a quite while to do that and to learn I really am OK.

It would help, too, if we stay respectful of one another. I notice this thread taking on some hairpin turns and in a way that's sad. If we can't coexist peacefully with with our differences is it rational to expect the rest of society will do it for us? Also, I like to think that if we approach this from a thousand or ten thousand different angles we're more likely to make progress than everyone piling in one wagon.

Lastly, I for one will never be the activist that blazes the CD trail, but I will be a strong supporter for those who do blaze the trail and in small ways I will help clear the path. Full social acceptance for what we do is probably not likely in my lifetime. It would be nice to see full tolerance, or to even see disgust completely replaced by curiosity.

I remain thankful I have a supportive spouse to love, and awesome children and grandchildren to dote on. I devote myself to doing that and candidly the yeahs and nea's of CD-ing rank low most of the time. In any event, you can bet I won't miss a good shoe sale because I'm conflicted. :battingeyelashes:

ReineD

01-05-2014, 10:29 PM

Miss Tee, I meant the members who really do split themselves up into two different personas. Not everyone does this.

Many of the members refer to themselves dressed in the third person, or they say they have certain personality traits or likes/dislikes while dressed that they do not have when not dressed. Years ago, even my own SO felt there were things (quite ordinary things if I may add), that s/he couldn't/wouldn't do in guy mode. This is all changed now, but it took a concerted effort and a lot of introspection.

Jess and Misty have a great point. Why wouldn't a CDer (like Stephanie in #72) be OK with watching chick flicks with their wives, giving heartfelt opinions on the outfits the wives are wearing, enjoy cooking, or whatever else they enjoy doing. Why must these things be reserved for times when CDers are wearing feminine clothing?

This is just an observation, but it astounds me when some members refer to their softer proclivities as their femininity seeping out. My ex (your generation), despite all his faults (lol), was so secure in himself that he was never embarrassed when he cried or when he had a tea party with his little niece, or when he enjoyed watching a chick flick with me. This was a man who cared about how he looked and he was well groomed. He didn't enjoy mucking about with cars, hunting, or any of that stuff. Yet he was still a man. My point is that he was not rigid with his own self-definition the way that so many CDers in this forum seem to be. Does this make sense?

I just think that many if not most CDers grew up so frightened to be found out they constructed thick "masculine" walls around themselves which really is a prison of their own making. A CDer can be a man like my ex and just relax his own rules a bit, enjoy being his own brand of male that is not ultra macho, and keep the CDing private from his friends and employer if he wishes. I think he'd be happier doing this than posturing himself into a rigid masculine role that he does not enjoy.

PaulaQ

01-05-2014, 10:51 PM

Marcelle

01-05-2014, 11:13 PM

Sorry,

I have to chime in here. There is a lot of misconception that acting "macho" or following stereotypical male roles/hobbies/interest precludes following more feminine stereotypical interests/roles/hobbies. In reality there is neither except the ones we create in our own minds. I engage in a lot of male oriented past times, I fix cars, do renovations, clear brush but then again so does my wife. I am a soldier and proud of that fact and have engaged in combat but then again I have fought along side female soldiers who hold their own and mix down and dirty with the guys including the proclivity to chew tobacco. It doesn't make them less feminine or me more masculine . . . they do it because that is what they wish to do as do I. On the other hand, I love to cook (always have), I sew, I help my wife clean the house (I truly love to vacuum as it relaxes me - love my Dyson) and I am not adverse to watching a good (heavy emphasis on the good) chick flick just as I enjoy a good zombie flick. All these so called feminine things (not convinced they are) I have done both "en boy" and on occasion "en girl" . . . they are the same as I am the same regardless of the gender I am presenting.

All this to say, do we really need to get wrapped around the axel on what constitutes feminine and/or masculine and how that influences a drive to present "en femme". Nobody can explain why I like to dress on occasion as a girl and I hardly believe it is because on some deep level I am tired of being a guy. Why? Because when I present as Isha, I am still me. I may not go to work "en femme" but Isha is still there. I may not cut the lawn in a skirt and heels but Isha is still there. I may decide to cook dinner "en femme" (as I did tonight) but boy me is still there.

My two cents.

Hugs

Isha

Janine cd

01-05-2014, 11:13 PM

Let yourself go. I've been the supporting male in my family for more than 50 years. I know what it is to be expected to be the male caretaker and instant problem solver. I have found that I can live the male life when necessary, While still being to satisfy my feminine desires. All it takes is setting priorities with your time. If the time to dress feminine allows itself, use it. If not, wait for an opportune moment. Then seize it and enjoy!

mary something

01-05-2014, 11:47 PM

it didn't seem to me that anyone in this thread was talking about dismantling walls, only making a window here or there to allow some normal human expression. Nobody can be John Wayne as a guy and Marilyn as a woman and be real without just playing a role. I thought Melissa made a great point that some people seem to feel this obligation to perform certain gendered actions that serve no purpose other than to make them feel adequate as the type of man they perceive themselves to be. Nobody can be a stereotype and be happy. Other people aren't judging as much sometimes as maybe people feel like they are.

Jess, I think a lot of crossdressers would probably still want to look feminine in the manner they choose at certain times no matter how well they live and enjoy their life as a man. It's a very visual thing it seems to me. From how it's described as pink fog, to the urge to purge, it's clear that many people perceive of it as a strong force that they don't have control over always. I think that is one of the reasons communication is so difficult at times, it's perceived as being outside of the person feeling it.

There is a lot of misconception that acting "macho" or following stereotypical male roles/hobbies/interest precludes following more feminine stereotypical interests/roles/hobbies. In reality there is neither except the ones we create in our own minds.

yes, almost like it is a balancing act sometimes, with one masculine activity in guy mode balancing out a femme activity in girl mode. I think a lot of this kind of thinking is from seeing the two sexes as opposites.

busker

01-06-2014, 01:07 AM

I'm pretty sure Bakersfield ain't tolerant.
you can say that again. Highest rate of pedophilia in the nation as I remember reading, and of child abuse.
Here is an interesting map of american tolerance--Rhode island being the most tolerant
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/12/08/sunday-review/where-the-closet-is-still-common.html?ref=sunday

dizzy

01-06-2014, 02:01 AM

After reading this thread I actually think there is something wrong with me now, I am just a guy who loves doing guy things and will also do girly things when I want, I have had many a tea party and played dolls with my daughter and played cowboys and Indians with my boys, I love to go shopping with my wife just for examples. I cross-dress because I love the clothes nothing more nothing less, the fingernail polish, the perfume, bras, panties, yoga pants, tights and the list goes on, however if I wear fingernail polish in male mode I am suddenly gay or weird, same with long earrings, or even that cute sparkly shirt. WHY? why can I not wear that stuff and still be seen as a normal guy? Hell today I took my son to college, on the way back I changed out of boots, jeans and tshirt and into some tights and a long shirt and tennis shoes, I had the most comfortable drive home ever, but if I would have gotten out of the truck I would have been some pervert on the street it seems. WHY?
I say I am so tired of being a guy because I am suppose to fit into what the world says a guy should look like, it has nothing to do with what guys are suppose to do and what females are suppose to do, those are old point of views anyhow. My wife grew up helping her dad work on cars for example, every relationship should share all the household tasks no matter what they are, but I think I should also be able to put on a skirt and cute tank top and run to the store when its 90 degrees out with some color on my nails or wear yoga pants and a t-shirt with some sparkly earrings and not be looked at like I am a alien from another planet, the clothes are just awesome after all they are just clothes. In fact as I write this, I am fully decked out, makeup, earrings, dress, high heels, the whole 9 yards but I am still me, a guy who enjoys this.

Aprilrain

01-06-2014, 08:08 AM

Yeah the walls we construct are often over built. Just keep in mind that they exist as much to keep something in as they are for protection. So if you crack the gates open a little, it isn't certain just what will come out, or whether you'll put it back in the box later. Assuming the whole edifice doesn't collapse.

Be careful what you wish for I guess.

Paula, you see thats the thing! a CDer does not have a woman inside just waiting to burst out like we did. That is the essential difference between your experience with CDing and hiding your true nature (and mine, i might add) and your average CDers. Before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying one is better than the other its just different.

@Dizzy, nothing will change until those men who want to wear skirts in public as men come out and stand up for their right to do so. Social change doesn't just happen you have to fight for it. Blacks, latinos, Women, LGBT etc. have all taken to the streets to fight for their rights and continue to do so. Until crossdressers, who are largely white heterosexual men, decide to get out there and fight for their right to be feminine you will not see the change you seek. just saying!

Wildaboutheels

01-06-2014, 09:37 AM

F A C T. MANY men can and DO wear anything they want to in public in towns and cities large and small. It does not require living anywhere "special". No amount of whining is going to change that. These very Forums are full of such "men" who do this.

It's also a fact that men ARE better equipped to do some jobs than women and vice versa. BUT, unless one is at work where your employer DOES have the right to tell one how to "dress", one can "dress" however they want. And if you want to wear makeup, wigs and forms etc., THERE IS NO LAW TO PREVENT IT.

Sitting around whining about an unaccepting Society is a sign of a CDer whose worst enemy is as close as the nearest mirror.

And NO, I don't feel burdened at all...

LilSissyStevie

01-06-2014, 02:49 PM

This weekend my sister-in-law came to stay with us because her marriage of 25 years is falling apart and she needed some refuge from the storm. It seems he complains that the passion is gone. They've lost the connection they once had. He makes soppy romantic gestures towards her and she doesn't respond. This depresses him so he locks himself in his office to cry. She finds that to be pathetic, weak and effeminate (her words) and it is repulsive to her.

So there you have it. An example of what can happen when you let down the mask of masculinity just a little bit. It's what every man has to think about before they go "integrating" any traits that can be perceived as feminine into their public persona.

PaulaQ

01-06-2014, 03:00 PM

Paula, you see thats the thing! a CDer does not have a woman inside just waiting to burst out like we did. That is the essential difference between your experience with CDing and hiding your true nature (and mine, i might add) and your average CDers. Before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying one is better than the other its just different.

Does the CDer not hide who they truly are just as surely as lesbians, gays, bisexuals, or transgendered people do? Oh wait - they are transgendered, aren't they. It's funny, the lesbians and gay folks I know in my life instinctively "get" that there are some common elements to our struggle with society, even if they don't know the first thing about transsexuals. Why do you feel the struggle of a CDer is so different? I don't. I can't imagine what part about my secretly dressing up, being terrified someone would discover me would be much different from the experience of many closet CDs here. Nor are the consequences all that different for them - most of their wives will be terrified that they'll transition - if they are even able to accept it on that level. (Read almost any thread in "loved ones".)

I find your attitude, quite frankly, smacks of prejudice - you want to exclude them from your happy little TS camp. Yeah, most of the girls on the CD forum will never transition. You know what that makes them, in my opinion? Lucky.

Again, I've talked to many, many CDs here on this forum. And the inescapable conclusion I have is that their experience differs from mine largely in terms of degree. They know fear. They know prejudice. They fear for their marriages, or consequences in their real lives. Unlike me, they can remain hidden and avoid some of those consequences - but at the awful cost of living a live of fear and loneliness.

If I am honest and compassionate, I can't tell you which of us has it worse, overall.

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, I truly am.

MatildaJ.

01-06-2014, 03:25 PM

This weekend my sister-in-law came to stay with us because her marriage of 25 years is falling apart...It seems he complains that the passion is gone. They've lost the connection they once had. He makes soppy romantic gestures towards her and she doesn't respond. This depresses him so he locks himself in his office to cry. She finds that to be pathetic, weak and effeminate (her words) and it is repulsive to her. So there you have it. An example of what can happen when you let down the mask of masculinity just a little bit.

Their marriage is falling apart. That's not necessarily because he let down the macho mask. It sounds like the passion ended first, and then, when his wife wasn't interested in him anymore, that's when he started breaking down. I'm glad he's able to show emotion right now and hope you can support him during this hard time. It sounds like he could use a friend.

Since she no longer liked him anyway, it's not reasonable to use her reaction as evidence for how a loving wife might react to her beloved husband saying he likes tulips, he dislikes working on cars, and sometimes he feels sad.

LilSissyStevie

01-06-2014, 03:36 PM

No, she was happy until he got all "effeminate" on her, he was the one that was dissatisfied. Now she's lost all respect for him. I sure that neither of them can help feeling the way they do.

MatildaJ.

01-06-2014, 03:48 PM

She was happy AND passionate about him? Or was he dissatisfied because she was no longer sexually interested in him?

Tina_gm

01-06-2014, 04:09 PM

Wow, see what happens when I am not on this board for a bit? lol. I missed a good one here. I tried reading through some of it, but I have not read every response Jess. But I will give my 2 cents in to the original post you put up.

For me, and I view myself as trangendered, that I have a part of me that is more aligned to women.... Having said that, It is not the male side that I ever tire of. I am fine with what expectations there are of me as a man. I feel that I fulfill those for the most part. I also enjoy these as well. For me, it is not abandoning being a guy, but of the society taboo of being feminine. That is what I struggle with. I am one of those who fits both categories. I have a part of me which is male and comfortable with that, but also a feminine side and part of me which is more aligned with women, but I cannot show that to society. Actually, it is not a matter of can't, but of the repercussions if I do.

I do not recall ever thinking or feeling, I am tired of being a guy, I wish I didn't have to do XYZ. It is more of wishing I could do XYZ and there not be an issue with it.

MatildaJ.

01-06-2014, 04:30 PM

Thanks, gendermutt, that makes sense.

LilSissyStevie

01-06-2014, 04:37 PM

She was happy AND passionate about him? Or was he dissatisfied because she was no longer sexually interested in him?

I can't imagine associating the word "passionate" with her. But, from her point of view, she's always been the same. He's the one that changed and that's when she lost all interest in him sexually. Apparently he's been suppressing these feelings for a long time. They've been in counseling for a while and it's come to the point where they feel the need to go their own separate ways. Too bad, they don't seem to have any really horrible issues to deal with like abuse, alcoholism or {gasp} crossdressing. I don't think either of them will find that being single at 50 will be quite as much fun as they imagine.

MatildaJ.

01-06-2014, 04:45 PM

But suppressing your feelings for a lifetime (and being married to someone who isn't sexually interested in you) also isn't very much fun. I wish them both the best in their new lives.

Gillian Gigs

01-06-2014, 05:27 PM

To quote a sign on the desk of a President, "the buck stops here". I don't mind fixing things, doing what has to be done, but way does the buck always stop with me. I don't remember seeing that it had to stop with me in the wedding vows. Why do I have to make all the difficult desicions? I like the one comment, You walk in the door, right away you hear, the dryer broke, so now I am the miracle worker? Is your finger broken that you can't call the service man, why do I have to be the one to call? Another comment, why is it the guys job to always initiate sex, if the girl wants it she should say so. If she was thirsty, would she wait until a drink was offered, or would she go and get a drink herself! I sometimes think that women live longer than men because they off load burdens onto the guy so he can carry them. Is this gender stereo typing or what? My generation has more than it's share of this.

I admit that I am into Cding more from the sexual side of things. I like to dress up and yea, I relieve myself occasionally at the same time. Why, STRESS relief, the stress of baring the burdens of life weighs you down, what could I do instead? Well there is eating, drinking, drugs, shooting something, yelling, beating on something, kicking the dog...all thing considered I would rather dress up and play with myself, it does less harm. Sorry I was not attempting to be crude.

We all have roles to play, sometimes they are of our own choosing, sometimes not. If Cding helps someone to get a break from the rigours of life, who am I to say no, you can't. One of the problems with this life is living up to anothers expectations, in marriage it is one thing, but in other relationships, it is another. Shouldn't a spouse be helping remove burdens by at least sharing the load, or by letting them CD if that is how they cope with the problems!

MatildaJ.

01-06-2014, 07:34 PM

Why do I have to make all the difficult decisions?

What happens if you say, "I don't know, what do you think we should do?"

devida

01-06-2014, 10:32 PM

Dizzy, you say

I say I am so tired of being a guy because I am suppose to fit into what the world says a guy should look like

I do agree with you but I also agree with wildaboutheels who points out that society won't change without our making it change. I don't have the gender dysphoria that many cds who want to transition have. I just don't understand why I have to live my life according to the very narrow gender definitions that sometimes seem to be the so called norm. But really, it's a lot weirder than we think. The extent to which you accept or incorporate gender definitions of masculinity or femininity has more to do with your idea of what's acceptable than what is actually accepted by society at large. American society is so incredibly diverse that you can push the boundaries as much as your courage will allow and remain safe as long as you use a small amount of common sense. It's probably not a good idea as a guy to get a drink in a biker's bar dressed as a French Maid, but even there I think you'd also have to be really obnoxiously aggressive to get in much trouble. People in the West are very accepting of deviance. I've lived in the Middle East and for a long time in the American South, and I assure you that Louisiana and Florida are beacons of tolerance compared to even a city as Westernized as Beirut.

I live in a small Florida town. Nobody dresses like I do. I do mean no man, btw. Obviously plenty of women do! I wear a mixture of male and female clothes all the time. I don't wear dresses out but I will wear stockings and tights. I wear short shorts and women's blouses. I wear make up, and I am not young. You know what? I think a lot of guys like it. I know a lot of women do, because they compliment me. About half as many times as women guys also compliment me, or give me a thumbs up. I get some disapproving looks but I have yet to have anyone insult me. Many people want to relax the rigidity of gender expectations about dress and probably about many other things. They just need people in all age groups and ethnicities to publicly push the boundaries. So push those boundaries as much as your courage and good sense will allow.

Because, if you don't, who will?

Badtranny

01-06-2014, 10:48 PM

Because, if you don't, who will?

Goodness Devida, I was just suggesting that guys admit they don't like working on cars, and that riled up PQ something awful.

I can't wait for the fallout on this one. ;-)

MissTee

01-06-2014, 11:19 PM

Sorry to come across as the ditsy one here, but it's a bit tough to follow the twists and turns in this thread. Is there a forgone conclusion that we must be unhappy if we are not out to the world in a fully blended, harmonious gender presentation? If so, nothing could be further from the truth.

Gillian Gigs

01-06-2014, 11:21 PM

What happens if you say, "I don't know, what do you think we should do?"

I can't speak for others, but from my point of view, the more input anyone can get helps improve the chances of making a good decision. Hence what a spouse should do would be to offer any input that may be deemed as being helpful to a decision making process.

dizzy

01-06-2014, 11:39 PM

Yea I am with you that someone has to push the limits in order for them to become normal, and I am doing what I am able to do I love wearing yoga pants and wear them all the time (I do hide my junk when I wear them) but in a town of over 100,000 people I cannot recall a time when I have even seen 1 other guy with yoga pants on when I have been out and about, same as finger nail polish except for the occasional black of course. Today I went out to the Post Office wearing high heal boots and womens jeans with a womens scarf over my coat and blue finger nail polish, I loved it. Just wish it was more normal and I would see others, there is security in numbers.

MatildaJ.

01-06-2014, 11:43 PM

Is there a forgone conclusion that we must be unhappy if we are not out to the world in a fully blended, harmonious gender presentation? If so, nothing could be further from the truth.

LOL. No, I'm glad you're happy, however that happens. But personally I just want to encourage people to try to help break down the rigid gendered boxes whenever they feel they could help with that project. It could use a lot of help!

DivineMissAmber

01-07-2014, 12:08 AM

According to Robert Heinlein, “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”

I love being a man and doing what men do. Growing up, I steered myself into masculine persuits. Tools. Cars. Outdoors. All that other stuff. These things are still interesting to me but they're not as important as they once were. I missed out on so much by focusing solely on masculine pursuits. I was left with a vacuum in my life. Crossdressing helps to fill that vacuum.

I'm just starting to scratch the surface of fashion, for example. There's so much to learn about body types and the clothes that work with each type of body. Now I'm learning about lengths, patterns, proportions, color. I get to experience how the design and pattern of a dress or skirt makes me feel.

I love doing what women do. Putting on makeup and a pretty dress is visceral. It allows me to see the world through a different lens. There's this feeling of stepping outside of myself and seeing just how I fit in the world. It puts things in perspective. As I learn these things, I try to integrate them into who I already am. I want to be a better person tomorrow than I am today.

To add the following to Heinlein's list: walk in heels, do an oil change, choose the right shade of blush, use a plumb-bob... The list goes on.

Michelle789

01-07-2014, 12:11 AM

Why do you feel the struggle of a CDer is so different? I don't. I can't imagine what part about my secretly dressing up, being terrified someone would discover me would be much different from the experience of many closet CDs here. Nor are the consequences all that different for them - most of their wives will be terrified that they'll transition - if they are even able to accept it on that level. (Read almost any thread in "loved ones".)

If I am honest and compassionate, I can't tell you which of us has it worse, overall.

Both TS and CDers have lots of challenges. Some challenges are common to both, and each one has challenges that are different from the other, but we both have lots of hardships we face. Here are some of the challenges of being a CD.

1. Finding time to cross-dress, where you won't have to interact with the world
2. Work - unless you work from home, you can't CD at work. And if you're lucky to work from home, that will likely change and you will be forced to commute to an office and sit through rush hour traffic.
3. Wife and kids - most wives aren't accepting of CDers, and many fear the CD will eventually transition, even though that is highly unlikely, but you don't know who is gonna transition and who is not. You may have to sneak dressing time when no one is present. That can be very tricky to pull off without getting caught, and to even find time alone when you're married and have kids.
4. Family - parents, siblings, cousins - even if you're single or have an accepting SO, chances are your parents or siblings won't accept you and you're still struggling to keep it a secret from them. Try living near by and having to visit them in drab, be in drab if they visit you, give up a day of CDing to tend to family obligations, have a family member inadvertently discover your secret stash of clothes. And heaven help you if you live with family. Good luck finding time to CD.
5. If you're an out CD, you face all the risks a TS woman would face when out en femme. The only difference is you can revert to drab mode and cis-male privilege.
6. Fear of being caught by family, friends, SO, kids, work, neighbors.
7. Getting irritated if you have to go a long stretch without CDing. And what constitutes a long stretch? 1 month? 2 weeks? 1 week? 3 days? And if god forbid you're forced to go 2 or more years without CDing. Lucky you don't end up in the loony bin.
8. If you come out to others, they may think you're crazy, messed up in the head, insane, gender confused, a sinner, going to hell, and people may be afraid to hang around you because they'd be guilty by association. People may literally treat you as if you're on drugs. People might even think of you as a drug addict.
9. Finding women's clothes that fit a plus-size male body.
10. Shopping for women's clothes in drab, getting mistreated by an SA, or being caught shopping by someone you know. I've never had trouble with an SA in L.A., but I certainly fear getting caught by someone I know. And I have had trouble with SAs in less tolerant places like Virginia.
11. It's very expensive to maintain two wardrobes.
12. Double duty laundry.
13. Hassles of hair removal or beard covering. Some CDers have such stubborn beard growth that waxing or electro or laser is a must. Even those of us with average or below average beard growth, some of us opt for painful and expensive waxing, electro, and laser.
14. Self-acceptance. CDs and TSs both struggle with accepting who we are. This can be the hardest part of all, accepting being a cross-dresser.
15. Although unlikely, what if you really are TS and do need to transition?
16. What if you really do hate being a man?
17. Loneliness.

Edit: People actually think cross-dressing is selfish. :Angry3:

Aprilrain

01-07-2014, 09:24 AM

I find your attitude, quite frankly, smacks of prejudice - you want to exclude them from your happy little TS camp. Yeah, most of the girls on the CD forum will never transition. You know what that makes them, in my opinion? Lucky.

I've talked to many, many CDs here on this forum. And the inescapable conclusion I have is that their experience differs from mine largely in terms of degree.

I find your apparent lack of reading comprehension skills frustrating. For whatever reason you keep imagining evil where none exist. There is no "Happy little TS camp" to exclude anyone from and yeah I agree people who do not suffer from gender dysphoria to the point of needing to transition are quite lucky indeed. My point made, thank you.

Paula those degrees matter, do black people and white people share many common human problems?, yes they do. Does that mean I know **** all what its like to be black?, no it does not. You seem to be the only one in this thread who is imagining injustice where none exist.

PaulaQ

01-07-2014, 10:30 AM

Paula those degrees matter, do black people and white people share many common human problems?, yes they do. Does that mean I know **** all what its like to be black?, no it does not. You seem to be the only one in this thread who is imagining injustice where none exist.

If you would actually talk to others, and try to understand their problems, perhaps you would no longer use your ignorance of their concerns as a justification for feeling the need to exclude them. Do you talk with many black people or CDs either one?

I've spoken with many on the CD forum who appear to have significant gender issues, some who need professional help in my opinion. All of them found the TS forum to be hostile, unsupportive, and unwelcoming, largely because of exclusionary attitudes like yours. They were "just CDs", so they didn't belong on the TS forum, their issues were nothing like those of the TS girls, who did them a "favor" by convincing them their feelings of GD were just a runaway case of fantasy.

I found this plausible, because it was my experience too.

We on the TS forum, not all, but many chase away people who need our help.

Tina_gm

01-07-2014, 04:07 PM

As for what CDers are challenged by and what TS girls are challenged by, Obviously there is things that we both have in common. Both are people who are born of a certain gender and have desires to look like act like and or be like the opposite gender. Where the road Y's off..... I am not going to say I think one has it harder than the other. It would all be perspective IMO. My perspective would be that in a way, it must be difficult for TS girls in that they are born of a gender that they simply do not match emotionally, at all. That must be very difficult to deal with, either by living through it, or through the process of transitioning. Even then, there will usually be plenty of people who know that what a person is now gender wise, they were once the opposite. They will still be "different" Although they will be able to live a life that is more suited to them.

However, in a sense, their struggle, however difficult may in some ways be more simple. Simple in that they are mentally different than what they were born as. And, as they go through life and deal with transitioning or just living more as the opposite sex they were born as, more people will take on an understanding that they are just not suited to the gender they were born as. Certainly there will still be many detractors, and those which will bring negativity or worse. But many who will accept this person as the gender which they are aligned with mentally.

As CDers go, while they still match their birth gender at least part of the time, their challenges may be more complex. Internally there may be more confusion. What am I? A TS knows. CDers it is a far grayer area for many. Many people in society and in a CDers inner circle may have a harder time dealing with a CDer. They are often married and are mostly the gender they were born as but.... and that is really it, but. It is easier for people in general to understand a person who is TS than a CDer who shares both feminine and masculine characteristics or desires. Men who dress as women, but don't really want to be women, and are still attracted to women. As the list above done by Michelle, which was well put together shows, there are many difficulties a CDer faces that TS girls who are out and living more as they are aligned do not.

I suppose in the end, being TS and not yet out, or having started any transition must be more difficult. They share the challenges of a CDer and face that challenge 24/7. A CDer can at any time for the most part be part of the normal crowd. Maybe a part time member of that crowd, but a member nonetheless. CDers can still live comfortably with their birth gender and associate themselves as their birth gender. So, who's to say what really is more difficult? Both do have the common bond of crossgender issues and that ultimately should be something that does not work against each other simply because of how far on the TG scale they fall.

gonegirl

01-07-2014, 04:55 PM

As for what CDers are challenged by and what TS girls are challenged by, Obviously there is things that we both have in common. Both are people who are born of a certain gender and have desires to look like act like and or be like the opposite gender.

I'm sorry, but that statement is simply not true.

A Transexual woman is a person whose gender is female. They are women. Their transsexuality occurred in utero by a birth defect that changed their physical sex to male. That is very different from a male gendered person who has feminine feelings they want to express.

stefan37

01-07-2014, 06:34 PM

Before this thread gets locked as it appears to be getting off track. I read that statement "I am tired of needing to be a man" quite frequently as a justification to xdress. I have no doubts it helps to relieve stress as I used it as a coping mechanism for many years. I am in agreement with Melissa and April that it is important to be authentic. Incorporating your emotions and mannerisms into your everyday life would go a long way to relieving the distress of not being able to express yourself. I understand many have hidden their proclivity to crossdress from their partners and that is unfortunate. I believe when ever we start getting serious we should disclose to our prospective future mates so they may make the decision to stay or leave.

It took a fall off a roof followed six months later by a sigmoid colon resection to stare at my mortality for the first time in my life. I choose at that time to live my life as I wanted and not what others expected. I started wearing eyeliner, colored nail polish, pierced both ears and wore woman's tee shirts, jeans and shoes in various combinations. My wife was certainly not thrilled , but she was used to me crossdressing as I told her on our third date I had a need to wear woman's clothes.(That was 34 years ago).
it took some time but they eventually got used to the idea especially when they saw most people really didn't care. I didn't want to people to see my femininity at that time so I cut my below shoulder hair short. I was accepted by all I came in contact with. I owned what I was doing and when I was asked I would reply, this is what makes me feel good. But I was authentic and felt that way.
3 years later the inner war I was waging came to a head and I realized I needed to transition. I am full time. My name has been legally changed and I socialize, work and play as a woman. I have not had facial surgery or body modifications other than those resulting from 18 months of hormone therapy. I get gendered both female and male as I am in that awkward beginning stage. I am accepted and get the respect I expect because I own what I am doing. I am not afraid to act emotionally or mannerisms how I am feeling at that time.

I work in a very male dominated industry and I have yet to get dissed for dressing or acting as a female might. I am authentic to the degree I feel I should. I am certainly not male, but I am no princess either. I do the brakes on my company or personal vehicles as needed. I can use a portable chop saw to slice through crap filled rotted cast iron pipe if necessary.

The point is to be yourself and to be authentic. Express yourself however you like and in a way you feel comfortable. if you have not told your partner I do feel for you but you made that predicament yourself. Only by freeing your inner you to the world will you feel liberated and find the happiness you deserve.

Michelle789

01-08-2014, 12:30 AM

I've spoken with many on the CD forum who appear to have significant gender issues, some who need professional help in my opinion. All of them found the TS forum to be hostile, unsupportive, and unwelcoming, largely because of exclusionary attitudes like yours. They were "just CDs", so they didn't belong on the TS forum, their issues were nothing like those of the TS girls, who did them a "favor" by convincing them their feelings of GD were just a runaway case of fantasy.

This is really sad that this has to happen. First, many of us suffer from serious gender issues, whether we are TS or CD or some other gender variant. Second, we're all hated by society. People don't like cross-dressers or transsexuals or other gender variants.

What's really sad is many of us who come on here really need desperate help. We might be afraid to go see a therapist because we got screwed over by a psychic (substitute psychic with priest, minister, rabbi, coach, counselor, or another therapist, 12-step sponsor, or someone else who was supposed to help you and betrayed you). Believe me my experience with the psychic has scarred me for a long time about seeing a therapist, because she was supposed to help me and she completely turned a blind eye to the fact that I was dealing with serious gender issues. Some of us cannot afford to see a therapist. Some of us are too shy and afraid to join an in person support group. Some of us live in remote areas where the nearest therapist or support group is a 3 hour drive away.

For many reasons, joining a forum is a great way to get answers to problems that are really bothering us, and to start searching for a solution. We don't have to spend any money. We don't have to turn our life over to one person. We don't have to see anyone face to face, and we can thus overcome our shyness and fears. And we don't have to waste time in a car, money on gas, or stress ourselves out in traffic. And we can post 24/7 - no need to be at a specific place at a specific time, and no conflicts with work or other commitments. I certainly joined for these same reasons and it's taken me months to get to a point where I'll consider seeing a therapist or in person support group, so this forum was a great help and necessity to beginning to deal with my gender issues.

Sadly, not everybody has had such a positive experience. Sadly, people get chased away by others on here because of insecurity, fear, and a trannier than thou attitude. Some of the girls on here think that "only my problems are real" or "your problems aren't that bad" or "you're just a CD" or "it's just a sexual fetish". The cruel truth is we're suffering from serious problems and it doesn't matter if one group has it worse than another, because maybe they don't. Maybe CDs and TSs just have different sets of problems and neither is privileged to the other. Society certainly doesn't see it that way.

We should know better. We're hated by society. We've lived on both the male and female sides of life for at least some percentage. Why can't we just get along? Why do we have to fight and argue.

I'm not accusing everyone of this. Most of us here care, most of us play by the rules most of the time. Most of us want to give and receive help. It's a few people that ruin it for all. All it takes is one person to say the wrong thing and it can literally ruin someone. We are vulnerable as a group, and yes some of us are more thin-skinned than others - I should know because I've been told that several times that I need to grow a thick skin and stop caring about what others think.

You seem to be the only one in this thread who is imagining injustice where none exist.

This kind of arguing has happened on plenty of threads before, and plenty of us have been involved in the arguing, myself included. Please don't accuse one person of seeing injustice, it has occurred before. Threads have been closed by the mods because of it. Maybe it's time to start a new forum called "Controversial Forum" for fighting topics like this one, with me as the mod.

Zylia

01-09-2014, 11:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc45-ptHMxo
(link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc45-ptHMxo))

Relevant?

NicoleScott

01-09-2014, 01:37 PM

I am in agreement with Melissa and April that it is important to be authentic....The point is to be yourself and to be authentic....Only by freeing your inner you to the world will you feel liberated and find the happiness you deserve.

First, I agree with Michelle (post #107) that it's sad that there is so much hostility on the forum. I have had both good and bad experiences in my five years here, and I'm still here, taking the good with the bad. I used to think we are a community with much in common, but then saw that perhaps we have only one thing in common, that we were born male and now wear women's clothing. There is one more, as others have said: the reasons we dress as we do don't much matter to the ignorant (not stupid, just uninformed) general public which includes friends, family, employers etc., that our behavior is deviant and all that goes with that. The reasons we dress are wildly varied, and some people can't see that. PaulaQ gets it, and her acknowledgement of it got her blasted.
The OP is a GG/SO of a CDer. Melissa and April are TS, and their POV is different than that of a CDer. Authenticity is good but may be defined differently for TS than for CDers. I have read posts from more than one TS (on the CD forum) "go ahead, if you want to live your life cowering in the back of your closet, but until you admit to yourself and the world who you are, you will never find happiness". Probably good advice for a TS from a TS, but the CDer POV is different. Yet, because most TS people misidentified themselves at some point to be a CDer, they think they know the POV of the CDer. I don't think so.
I am a CDer who likes to dress for my own pleasure. I am authentic, but other than my wife knowing, I live in the closet, as there is no compelling reason for the rest of the world to know, and I have no reason to be a front-line soldier for the cause of acceptance and for the benefit of others at my expense. Happy to live my CDing life in the closet, so please stop trying to draw me and others like me out for your perception that I need to free my inner soul to the world. It ain't so.

Lorileah

01-09-2014, 02:02 PM

...I have no reason to be a front-line soldier for the cause of acceptance and for the benefit of others at my expense. So being your brother's (sister's) keeper or looking out for the whole community isn't your thing? Let's hope that after they pick off the TSs and the CDs who are out, they don't start raiding closets. Be that as it may, what is your feeling about the OP's question that some don't like being a man and doing manly things? Why is a TS's opinion (having been a man or trying to act like one once) different than a CD when it comes to stereotypical behavior? We have all rowed the same boat. There are very few here who won't or don't want opinions from anyone who has walked the path. Technically everyone's perspective is different. so any opinion would be just as valuable as another.

MatildaJ.

01-09-2014, 02:20 PM

Thanks, Zylia, for that link. I thought it was very relevant.

NicoleScott

01-09-2014, 02:47 PM

Lorileah, no I can't look out for the whole community. I know...repeat, I know....my job would be in jeopardy if my boss knew I crossdressed. I have known him for decades, he is a good friend, I like my job and the pay, but I know that he sees all CDers, TS, gay, lesbian, bi, effeminate mannerisms and speech, etc. as the same "queer". I don't fear my closet being raided by whoever "they" are.
As for the OP's question, if some men don't like doing manly things, that's OK with me. But in a marriage where those feelings weren't made known before-hand, it's a problem. I can't relate, though, because I identify as a man (who likes to dress up occasionally) and enjoy man things including certain responsibilities and expectations. It is possible, though, that not liking "always being the man" is a strategy/excuse to escape responsibilities. But those with gender issues may see it differently.
I don't think we have all rowed the same boat. I am confused by "having been a man". Many or most TS say they have always been female, just in the wrong body, and not a male that became a female. I do understand (as much as it possible for a non-TS) "trying to act like one", trying to meet the expectations of others based on a person's sex. I will never say that I know what it's like to be TS, and I don't believe a TS knows what it's like to be a CDer. Yes, you crossdressed, but you were never a crossdresser.
I value the opinion of others, but value it less when opinion turns to judgement. "Here's what worked for me, so you should, too". My post was prompted by the post that suggested authenticity...defined as being who you are to the world... as necessary to free the soul. That some people can see things only one way leads me to see a somewhat dysfunctional community, and that's what my post was about.

Aprilrain

01-09-2014, 06:26 PM

Some people get awefully bent out of shape over words on a computer screen. It's amazing how easy it is to be misinterpreted here. Nicole has just said what I was trying to say earlier to Paula. Paula can't really use her CDing experience in retaliation to CDers because she is TS. Even if on the surface a crossdressers CDing and a pre-transition TSes CDing look similar they are coming at it from different places one is not better or more valid then the other there just different. I was not dissing CDers, I was not excluding anyone from any phantom non existent clubs. I wasn't suggesting that every CD needs to be out and proud to be happy. I was merely agreeing with Misty that guys don't have to like sports or enjoy fixing cars to be guys. Guys can like opera or ballet if they want. They can enjoy ballroom dancing with their wives. They can watch a romantic comedy with their GF. Only an extreme homophobe would call a man a sissy or fag for doing these things. You don't have pretend to be a stereotype in order to protect your masculinity.

Lorileah

01-09-2014, 06:29 PM

answer the OP or this thread is done. Arguing who has the best perspective is not going anywhere

NicoleScott

01-10-2014, 09:58 AM

Yes, the thread got off track, but perspective is relevant to the OP's question. There seems to be a lot of one-downsmanship - I've got it worse than you. For me, being the man is easy, because I am one and I just like to crossdress occasionally. I don't know how a TS thinks, but from what I have read from TS over the years, there are TS who are tired of pretending they are men to fulfill others' expectations, tired of pretending they are men because they are NOT men.
I can imagine my wife's reaction if I were to announce "I'm tired of needing to always be a man". I might hear "Fine. I'm tired of always needing to be a woman. Say hello to your favorite hand, because that's your new woman". In any case, whatever the perspective, such news would not be good for the relationship which started as the man being the man. The issue, as presented by the OP, has little to do with dressing.
If we are to be a community giving and getting support for all, we need to start seeing things from perspectives other than our own. If we can't do that, we should quit making blanket statements to a broad audience but from a narrow perspective.

Katey888

01-10-2014, 10:51 AM

Gosh - did I miss all the early fun on this one :cheer:
I'm a guy - and I CD. I don't tire of being who I am. I do sometimes tire of the pressures of life, and those pressures generally apply to the male and female roles in unequal measures, for different reasons, and at different times of life.
I like fixing cars (Guy+) but I live in the UK and hate soccer (Guy-). I like the art of makeup (Girl+ Guy-) but I still look like a guy in a dress (Girl-). I like ballet, opera, literature, art, baking (?) - I don't like team sports, pub crawls... I could go on... what I think I'm trying to say, in answer to the OP, is that none of us totally fit one stereotypical image. We're all different, and perhaps those unequal pressures weigh more heavily on some than others. To me, it's easy to understand how someone who also has to cope with the complexities of real gender issues can feel overly burdened by the pressure of societal or familial expectations.
Does that answer the question? I feel better for saying it anyhow...? :D

Now I must go back to my baking...
Katey x

Gillian Gigs

01-10-2014, 11:10 AM

what I think I'm trying to say, in answer to the OP, is that none of us totally fit one stereotypical image. We're all different, and perhaps those unequal pressures weigh more heavily on some than others.

Maybe, there in lays one of the problems, to fit in within our society many of us force ourselves into stereotypical behaviors and images. When this gets added to the pressures of life, it causes us to go to the opposite extreme when we dress up. The pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, when what we need is to find a happy middle ground. I'm not saying it is easy, but these massive pendulum swings are not easy on us either, also our families.

Tina_gm

01-10-2014, 11:11 AM

Good save Nicole, and I mean that sincerely. It is a good point about what the OP is bringing up. That there are men who are or are they? tired of being a man. It has so much variance of opinion simply to what a man really even is. CD's and TS's do have something in common. Both are to some degree, or more, more feminine than that of the average guy. It is a femininity that drives a desire to do anything that emulates women. Whether it only applies to dressing and appearance, and only occasionally, it is still there. Part of the way, half the way to where a TS is, but still there. Similar issues still arise. And CD's often do feel trapped (as I have read numerous times here) of expectations they do not fit well. No, they do not want to change their physical gender. But many of them, and I being among the CD crowd in a certain sense often feel trapped, or that we are not a good fit for societies expectations.

My personal experience with this phenemon if you want to call it that is not that I dislike or feel so out of place with being a man or the expectations of being one. It is the lack of inclusion and the expectation that I should not be included in feminine and woman type expectations, including dressing. If there is one thing I do truly dislike about being a man is body hair. I dislike body hair. I am somewhat fortunate that I do not have a lot of it, but more than almost all women have. I shave most of mine off. Society has an expectation that I should not shave it off. (I know its not as taboo as it used to be) but still, why would a 49 year old man who is not seriously involved in athletics shave his legs, shoulders, underarms and hands? I keep the upper chest hair per my wife's request. If the only reason is that I like to be hairless than that is not a "normal thing to do. It is a girly thing to do and yadda yadda. There are plenty of other examples of course, dressing, make up, nail length.... I would like to partake in these things, but to do so puts me out of societies expectations as a guy.