Is Double Dysphoria A Thing?

[BeckyW]

Today, I went shopping at the mall (in boy mode, not ready to go out dressed yet), and I actually tried on, and bought a new outfit. That part was great.

What wasn't great, was when I saw couples together, I had almost a double dysphoria thing going on... I would look at the woman, and want to be her, and then I'd see the guy, and I wished I could be like him: just a guy, not a guy who might be a girl inside or a guy who wants to look like a girl on the outside, but just a guy.

I think I just want to feel whole... I mean, I want the dysphoria to go away, because it makes me not feel whole, but overall, I just want to be one thing or the other, and have it feel right.

Is this par for the course? Anybody else get this?

Anyway, I got the outfit home (just leggings and a nice top), put them on, and added a little bit of pink eyeshadow and lipstick... My hair is starting to get long so I pinned it up to get it out of my eyes. I saw my reflection in the mirror, and saw me, but me feminine. Not just a guy wearing women's clothes.

It just felt right somehow... Not in a sexual way, but a peaceful, the gears are lined up right sort of way. Of course, the next emotion is to feel anxious and worried about the future and what I think I might have to do.

[Allison_Leslie]

it's cause you're used to being in guy mode .. but as soon as I am in my real mode, I feel SO much better and guy mode melts away.
I hardly even know Alvin anymore. at work my hands go up to my side and I am speaking halfway or more, between Alvin and Allison.
it just takes time... nothing unusual.

[KayleeTaylor]

You answered your own question:


I think I just want to feel whole... I mean, I want the dysphoria to go away, because it makes me not feel whole, but overall, I just want to be one thing or the other, and have it feel right.

That is what we really need, to be whole. I used to look at girls and want to be them, I would also look at guys and wonder why couldn't I have been "normal" like them. Life would be a lot better.

[Ann Louise]

I suggest you start keeping a journal Becky, and track your ups and downs. Not really wordy with lots of hand-wringing and anguish, just enough to track your moods. If you're anything like I was, you'll see a cyclic pattern in the rhythm of your GD intensity, and see which "side" is dominant. In my case my female heart kind of came tearing out once I let her be seen clearly. Three or four months of my little book were enough for me to know I needed a gender counselor to help sort things out. I suggest you try not to focus on the clothes much, too, except as a means to let her out of her cage when you can. Good luck honey, this won't be easy. Ann

[Michelle789]

I used to look at girls and want to be them, I would also look at guys and wonder why couldn't I have been "normal" like them. Life would be a lot better.

Me too. I was never good at being a guy, and I found being a guy to be a huge burden. When I look at girls I want to be them, not get in their pants.

[BeckyW]

I suggest you start keeping a journal Becky, and track your ups and downs. Not really wordy with lots of hand-wringing and anguish, just enough to track your moods. If you're anything like I was, you'll see a cyclic pattern in the rhythm of your GD intensity, and see which "side" is dominant. In my case my female heart kind of came tearing out once I let her be seen clearly. Three or four months of my little book were enough for me to know I needed a gender counselor to help sort things out. I suggest you try not to focus on the clothes much, too, except as a means to let her out of her cage when you can. Good luck honey, this won't be easy. Ann

Thanks, Ann; I have been keeping a journal, but probably not well enough to spot patterns yet. It was oringally to try to track how dressing affected my emotions, but I think you're right, it's not about the clothes. I am working with a counsellor too.


Me too. I was never good at being a guy, and I found being a guy to be a huge burden. When I look at girls I want to be them, not get in their pants.

Yeah, it's funny... The burden thing... I always thought that was from being 'the' man, and all the responsibilities that entailed; it's only been in the past few months where it's become about being 'a' man in general.

[Isabella77]

Seeing a happy couple tends to fill me with emotions. I wish I could be the girl, pretty and admired. I wish I could be the guy, strong and confident.
it's a common theme in mythology where one side completes the other, the feminine to the masculine or whichever. Adam and Eve were the same person at one time. I think seeing a happy couple is always gonna make you want the same thing that you can never seem to get - completeness.
It doesn't mean that the people you're looking at are so complete and you're so not. It's just the way that you look at it.
It's just that when you're a CD and you're both at the same time it just makes it so much harder.

[Aprilrain]

Yeah I get it I uesd to feel this way too, I still do some times. I would see some guy who to me looked like the ipitome of manhood and think "if I could only be like him I wouldn't want to be a girl." in many ways I sorta became that guy, it didn't help. Lol.

[bas1985]

I don't know, well, during my 20-25 years of denial we may say that I suffered from male dysphoria, it seemed to me to be like a FTM, in a certain sense I had the body of a male (well sort of, but at least the genitals were correct), so I can say that it was a mental dysphoria.

I tried to emulate the other men, mentally, staying with them, trying to have male friends, speaking with my work colleagues, but it did not work, simply DID NOT work.

Now I have the body dysphoria, that is for sure, but at least mentally I am at peace, I 100% prefer to have a body to adjust to my inner state than to suffer my all life with the awkward feeling of having a functioning male body but without being a man.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you are transsexual, you have tons of coping oriented thoughts that you might not notice, and that journal is a good place to spot them and consider them for what they are...

One of the big ones for me was the whole "wish I was a..." thought... I had many thoughts of the nature of "I wish I was that guy", especially looking at sports figures or musicians ...I wanted to play baseball for the Phillies...or be in a star band...but I know now those were all part of the inner dialog I had that was looking for any way out of my problem..it was a habit of thought... I didn't really want to be anybody...

the dysphoria part is not the wishing, it is the distress... did you feel "distress" that you couldn't be that guy? or girl?

[GabbiSophia]

So wanting to be say clooney or someone like that is a distress symptom? My whole life I have always wanted to be more manly and wondered why I didn't fit that mold. Later in life I just didn't care about it anymore. Though I still wish I had a 6 pack and looked good. I thought having self image problems was universal across all genders. I do admit at times it would be nice to be normal for awhile.

[BeckyW]

the dysphoria part is not the wishing, it is the distress... did you feel "distress" that you couldn't be that guy? or girl?

I'm still having trouble exactly identifying what I'm feeling. If I see a woman, I get the 'wish I could be her' feeling, along with sadness, almost grief really, that I know I can't be her. The next feeling I can identify after that is worry- because I feel like all of this is leading somewhere (transition), and I know how hard that is in general and how much it will hurt the people I love. I also feel like it's out of my control now.

After that, it kind of melts into shame and guilt... I feel on some level that either I did something to deserve this (porn usually comes to mind), or I'm actively entertaining dangerous fantasies. At the same time, I know I've hard these feelings since childhood off and on, and the intensity has been increasing, especially over the last 4 years or so. (And really, why would I fantasize about really making my life difficult?)

The whole thing is like a weird dark cloud when it happens.

[Foxglove]

When I see women, I say to myself, "That's what I should be."

It can be so frustrating. So often I think, "What's so hard about being a woman? Half the human race does it without even thinking about it. A woman doesn't have to do anything. She just gets out of bed in the morning and, hey, she's a woman. Why does it have to be so hard for me?"

I have a lot of trouble imagining myself as the woman in a relationship, but there's no way I'd ever want to be a guy any more. I never was much of one anyway. It's quite relaxing to give up that ambition.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm still having trouble exactly identifying what I'm feeling. If I see a woman, I get the 'wish I could be her' feeling, along with sadness, almost grief really, that I know I can't be her. The next feeling I can identify after that is worry- because I feel like all of this is leading somewhere (transition), and I know how hard that is in general and how much it will hurt the people I love. I also feel like it's out of my control now.

After that, it kind of melts into shame and guilt... I feel on some level that either I did something to deserve this (porn usually comes to mind), or I'm actively entertaining dangerous fantasies. At the same time, I know I've hard these feelings since childhood off and on, and the intensity has been increasing, especially over the last 4 years or so. (And really, why would I fantasize about really making my life difficult?)

The whole thing is like a weird dark cloud when it happens.

You must have copied one of my posts from 5 years ago.

the concept of feeling trapped was a big trigger...I was trapped by success in my job, the presumed disapproval of my extended family, and most importantly by my own family and children..
when my wife asked for a divorce that created a possibility that made me feel even more trapped ..

I can honestly say I never remotely considered transition until I transitioned. I just felt all the things you described, and tried to hang in there...but my distress only got worse, and my behavour around dressing became bizarre and counter productive...

you haven't lived until you walked around a freezing cold Motel 6 parking lot in a cocktail dress at 4 am...went back to your room...put everything away, take a shower, drop your clothes off at public storage and drive into work...ugh..by 8am I would be plotting the next time I could go on an overnight "business trip"...it was constant and it was unbearable...

I also identify with the shame and guilt. Feeling ashamed is a sad and unnecessary byproduct for many of us.

what you said in your brackets around fantasizing about making life more difficult is exactly what my therapist said to my pleadings that this was about a fetish or fantasy..

[Ariamythe]

I've had moments like that. Sometimes I want to be her, sometimes him; sometimes I'm jealous, sometimes bitter; sometimes I'm depressed. sometimes angry. Anything is possible with dysphoria.

[Tina955]

Ariamythe,

That pretty much somes it up. Great thread, totally relate.

Tina

[BeckyW]

what you said in your brackets around fantasizing about making life more difficult is exactly what my therapist said to my pleadings that this was about a fetish or fantasy..

Thanks for saying that... I'd love for this to just be a fetish... That would be far less complicated.

[dreamer_2.0]

I can relate to several posts here including the OP describing double dysphoria. While I don't want to be male I do often wish to be a regular guy with no gender issues. It's particularly hard seeing couples together as I dream of just being "normal", be it a normal girl (preferably) or just a normal guy with the ability to have a regular relationship without this ridiculous baggage.

Wishing to be either the guy or the girl leads to feelings of extreme sadness, anger, shame, and guilt among other negative emotions because I know that I'm not and will never be a regular, dull, boring person living a regular life. Worry is another big emotion as I believe there is no option beyond transition to help me feel good and whole.

Like BeckyW, everything feels like it's out of my control and I have no choice in the matter but to transition. Several people seem to look forward to transition, they feel the need to do it and must do it ASAP. I feel the opposite such that while a part of me does feel this way, my rational side (at least I think it's my rational side) doesn't want to transition and wants to avoid even if that means continuing my subpar quality of life. It's as if I choose to continue struggling and destroy my life rather than face the problems the universe has dealt me.

Is this just a fetish or am I merely entertaining dangerous fantasies? My therapist seems to think no but I'm not completely convinced yet. I agree that simply having a fetish would be less complicated.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's a heck of fetish...

think of it...getting off on feeling miserable and empty, and realizing the only way to feel better might be to have everyone look at you like you are nuts, hurt everyone around you and risk losing your livelihood....

We should make a DVD of it and see if it sells!!!:devil:

[BeckyW]

It's a heck of fetish...

think of it...getting off on feeling miserable and empty, and realizing the only way to feel better might be to have everyone look at you like you are nuts, hurt everyone around you and risk losing your livelihood....

We should make a DVD of it and see if it sells!!!:devil:

Sounds like a good plan to me. :-)

[Aprilrain]

I don't know if its "double dysphoria" I think its that we see that that "that guy" is "normal" and we long to be "normal", that's pretty common. If you're trans you know deep down that you really want to be her but you also know how impossible and absurd that notion is so being "him, a normal guy" is the next best thing. Its all part of the same thing. Gender dysphoria.

[Badtranny]

Wow that's an emotional back-bend to get to DOUBLE dysphoria.

April is right, it's all part of the same stuff. When I was a kid I wished I was a girl. When I was a young man, I wished I was a normal dude. When I became aware of what my problem really was, I wished I had the courage to do something.

My old drunk grandpa used to say that you can wish in one hand and poop in the other and you'll still be able to carry something with the hand you wished in.

At some point in your life you're just going to have to acknowledge that life sucks for everyone and you can either make a decision to pursue your happiness or you can just roll over and let life grind you down. The solution is different for everyone but there IS one constant; Nobody cares about you.

It's harsh but everybody in your life has their own problems that you don't give a damn about because you're so spun out by "double dysphoria". Your mental health is your own business and there is no angel waiting in the wings to save you. Save yourself. Find a way. The greater irony is you will find more help and support as you begin pushing through it than you can ever imagine. Opportunity may knock but everything else needs to be chased and pinned down.

[Frances]

Gender dysphoria is unhappiness or malcontent with one's sex or perceived gender. Men (and women) present with gender dysphoria at gender clinics, not just transsexuals. So the answer is no, it's all the same stuff, like April said.

[BeckyW]

Wow that's an emotional back-bend to get to DOUBLE dysphoria.
April is right, it's all part of the same stuff. When I was a kid I wished I was a girl. When I was a young man, I wished I was a normal dude. When I became aware of what my problem really was, I wished I had the courage to do something.


That was helpful. I had actually thought the dysphoria was more cut and dried: You either want to be a woman all the time, or you're really not experiencing dysphoria.



At some point in your life you're just going to have to acknowledge that life sucks for everyone and you can either make a decision to pursue your happiness or you can just roll over and let life grind you down.


Also true.... But....



The solution is different for everyone but there IS one constant; Nobody cares about you.

It's harsh but everybody in your life has their own problems that you don't give a damn about because you're so spun out by "double dysphoria".


I'm going to have to call B.S. on that one. Maybe projection. Considering this is only my 13th post on this forum _ever_, I don't think you're really in a good position to guess at who cares about me or who or what I give a damn about.

I spend all my freaking time taking care of the people in my life. They matter to me. If they didn't I would have started HRT by now. If I transition it will hurt them. I want to make damn sure it's worth it.

[Frances]

Melissa was speaking in general terms, not about you, not about people you know. People in general don't really care about other people's transsexuality, if they are not close to them.

[BeckyW]

Ah. I totally misunderstood then. Sorry, Melissa.

[GabbiSophia]

I don't know if its "double dysphoria" I think its that we see that that "that guy" is "normal" and we long to be "normal", that's pretty common. If you're trans you know deep down that you really want to be her but you also know how impossible and absurd that notion is so being "him, a normal guy" is the next best thing. Its all part of the same thing. Gender dysphoria.

spot on ...

I know what the "double Dysp" is like also. Though I always want to be the normal dude.

[Badtranny]

Don't sweat it Becky but you should examine the motives for your response to my rather innocuous post. Why did Frances understand that I couldn't possibly be speaking to YOU directly (you're right I don't know you), but you misunderstood and took it very personally.

Most people don't exist naturally in this medium so I generally give everyone a pass on that, and that goes for you too, but I think you missed the larger point.

When I say 'nobody cares' it's because nobody cares more about your life and happiness than you, and to suggest otherwise is to imply that somebody would care more about you than they do themselves. That condition may be romantic but it doesn't really exist and if it did, that person would be kinda sad.

So nobody is going to forge through any rivers to save you, and if you're putting the happiness of others before your own, than that's admirable and it should be it's own reward. If it's not than you're doing something you don't want to do. Notice that none of this is specifically related to gender issues.

You have things you need to work out. Join the club.

[Foxglove]

I don't know if its "double dysphoria" I think its that we see that that "that guy" is "normal" and we long to be "normal", that's pretty common. If you're trans you know deep down that you really want to be her but you also know how impossible and absurd that notion is so being "him, a normal guy" is the next best thing. Its all part of the same thing. Gender dysphoria.

I think all of this is true, but my problem is, "Why would I want to be a 'normal guy'?" Nightmare scenario.

[Angela Campbell]

I think that it is pretty normal to every once in a while to just wish you could be "normal" or whatever you think of as normal. Yeah life would be so much easier if I didn't have this, but at the same time I cannot imagine really wanting to be a dude. For me being "normal" would have had to start with being born in a female body.

Still I do have times when I am very upset when I feel like a freak and wish I didn't have this. More on the lines of wishing I didn't have the dysphoria at all. I do not think this is double dysphoria, it is just another part of it. You know your mind and body do not match and it would be better if it did.

[BeckyW]

Don't sweat it Becky but you should examine the motives for your response to my rather innocuous post. Why did Frances understand that I couldn't possibly be speaking to YOU directly (you're right I don't know you), but you misunderstood and took it very personally.


You're completely right, it obviously struck a nerve... I don't want to hurt my family, they've been through a lot already (totally unrelated to my stuff), and I don't want to bring more pain to them. On some level, I feel responsible for all of this.

If the dysphoria continues to get worse, it will eventually hit a stage where I have to do something, probably at least partially transition. Right now, I just don't know what to do.