KaceyR
01-13-2014, 09:20 PM
I'm going to respond to this more as an "outsider".. as my situation has led me to a different involvement here and I've seen these kinds of comments and notes frequently even in my short-ish forum history. Also I'm an "outsider" to the world of relationships and marriage and direct involvement as such.
Note: I'm _very_ logical minded involving thoughts of this sort. I realize it's not something that you can logically progress thru as emotionally charged as these situations really are but that's why I'm posting it here. My own logical side and thus lack of social skills has kept me pretty much all 48 years as the "observer" for all of these things. And why I don't respond much to threads involving this spousal demands/issues.
My logic first considers this:
Marriages are _supposed_ to be between 2 people that truly care for, and think of, each other. (something I personally think needs to truly be defined more in marriage vows).
Marriages are "add-on", if you will, to the individual's "life experience". It's there for convenience of having a "family". And of dedicating commitment. But to me, the individual still has to somewhat take precedent over the marriage. Each individual _cannot_ just "get rid" of a part of themselves no matter how you say or how you think you're brainwashing your partner to do so otherwise. Sure, you modify priorities (and especially when you continue the "family" with having children) but you cannot "get rid" of pieces of yourself.
This is why I'm saddened hearing stories of the wives that even though they knew beforehand of "what they were getting" with the CDer spouse, that they can instantly turn the 180 degrees and say it has to be got rid of. Of course, this isn't just CDing that this happens to.. many times I've seen marriages where once they've got the ring, they "force" the spouse to get rid of hobbies, sports, etc. To "change" the guy (or girl..seen it both ways).
This is not a healthy marriage...as this "instantly" does 2 things. 1: The person that is being changed now has that little seed of resentment started in the back of the mind. This can grow quickly into a forest of discontent. (ooo metaphors!) 2: In a way, this instantly (to me) invalidates the marriage. Back to first statement: Two people that think of and care for each other. If you force changes on the person..you're not thinking "of" the partner's well being. You're only thinking of yourself. The wife (in our cases) is in no way realizing the hurt she has done. She's only thinking of herself and whether it's supposed "shame","competition" (of the girl side), or attractiveness, whatever.
Now trying "changing" the CDer in the marriage is doubly (or more) hurtful and damaging than _any_ other thing than could occur. Sure you could maybe convince him to get rid of a model train hobby... but when you deal with crossdressing, you are dealing with the _core_ personality and gender aspect of the person. You sure couldn't say to a wife "I now forbid you to wear _any_ women's clothes..from now on you'll dress as a guy". You can't say to a developing child that they now _have_ to dross opposite their gender. If that was done, that could be called abuse in courts and causing mental anguish. That's what's so bad for the CDer. Our core is a bit more gender fluid. It's not something that can be turned on and off. That's why it reappears in force when purging. It is not just a hobby...it's our "selves". Courts may not agree with us, but in a way forcing a CDer to "give it up" is also just about as bad.
Now, the extra parts to this process of these spouse "demands" I see is this.
(Technically, this can vary a bit...somewhat more of a duality here.)
With a lot of CDers I see them 1: being more in touch with their feminine side and likewise their emotions.
This unfortunately only amplifies the "anguish" felt by their "selves" as these demands are done.
Others (and I'm kind of thinking ones that start CD later in life..but maybe not necessarily so) have been in "male mode" for so long in their lives, that they're "used" to covering up or sublimating their feelings. This can be bad as buried feelings are the perfect fertilizer for the "forest" of discontent (whee...continued metaphors). And like weeds in well-fertilized soil, all sorts of weird stuff can spring up fast and at odd times when there's too much buried. (add in other life events and so forth and it's nothing but tall ragweed amongst the trees keeping the pathway out of the forest to a good "self" hidden).
So overall, what can be done?
I'm not sure myself (these are more observations than experience). I'm definitely not advocating getting a weed-whacker.
It all comes down to the fact that unless the spouse has to realize they _are_ hurting the one they are supposed to love by imposing getting rid of CD, then nothing will change. They have to realize that it's not just a hobby...it's a part of the CDer's "soul" or self they are trying to rip away.
And they have to actually care for someone other than themselves..as not realizing this hurt they are doing is really only for their own insecurities whatever they may be. Ultimately you either have to truly learn to "understand" each other and what can and can't be changed/controlled, and decide from there. And you have to _want_ to truly understand each other for coexistence to continue in a good way.
My deep respect for the GG supporters of the CDers that found out later in their marriage. It takes a lot to truly learn about and support a CDer. Add in outside influences,family,etc it's rough for the spouse to handle and come to terms with. Mainly because it also makes them assess their own "selves" and self priorities along with what the CDer is going thru.
So that's the crux of it.
You can go further into trying to "therapy" things. Bearing in mind, however, that it's a 3rd party involvement and it has to be a "good" therapist that can truly help. And needs to be a better gender trained one who should "realize" the gender "core" issue of the CDer and be able to talk to both parties and be objective about it all. Otherwise, all you'll get is one that treats CDing as a simple hobby..and will only introduce more fertilizer to the forest.
Well.. that's my thoughts. Deep or not, I dunno.
I probably had another thought too..but after almost 2 hours typing this...
But all this observation (as well as age, and seeing so many friend's divorces too) has only added to my own reluctance to ever pursue any real relationship.
Seeing the outright divorce threads, the DADT aspect, and so forth just keeps me thinking of marriage/trans/CD overall compatibility.
Overall, marriage _needs_ to be the coexistance of both partners' individual core "selves". And as one goes thru life, the "self" can change grow and evolve. But it cannot be "commanded" to evolve. I think "self" evolving has changed even more quickly in recent years as the "view of the world" allows for more varied experiences thru life. Gone is the "get married" then "stay as you are till you die" aspect so seen in older years. Society changes. Selfs change. And at faster and faster rates thanks to information flow. And this has hampered marriages all over. And probably is a good cause of issues in several divorces in recent times.
Anyways, take these thoughts for what they are... outside observations.
My thoughts may be flawed, and I'm sure there's variations to it all.
-Kacey
Note: I'm _very_ logical minded involving thoughts of this sort. I realize it's not something that you can logically progress thru as emotionally charged as these situations really are but that's why I'm posting it here. My own logical side and thus lack of social skills has kept me pretty much all 48 years as the "observer" for all of these things. And why I don't respond much to threads involving this spousal demands/issues.
My logic first considers this:
Marriages are _supposed_ to be between 2 people that truly care for, and think of, each other. (something I personally think needs to truly be defined more in marriage vows).
Marriages are "add-on", if you will, to the individual's "life experience". It's there for convenience of having a "family". And of dedicating commitment. But to me, the individual still has to somewhat take precedent over the marriage. Each individual _cannot_ just "get rid" of a part of themselves no matter how you say or how you think you're brainwashing your partner to do so otherwise. Sure, you modify priorities (and especially when you continue the "family" with having children) but you cannot "get rid" of pieces of yourself.
This is why I'm saddened hearing stories of the wives that even though they knew beforehand of "what they were getting" with the CDer spouse, that they can instantly turn the 180 degrees and say it has to be got rid of. Of course, this isn't just CDing that this happens to.. many times I've seen marriages where once they've got the ring, they "force" the spouse to get rid of hobbies, sports, etc. To "change" the guy (or girl..seen it both ways).
This is not a healthy marriage...as this "instantly" does 2 things. 1: The person that is being changed now has that little seed of resentment started in the back of the mind. This can grow quickly into a forest of discontent. (ooo metaphors!) 2: In a way, this instantly (to me) invalidates the marriage. Back to first statement: Two people that think of and care for each other. If you force changes on the person..you're not thinking "of" the partner's well being. You're only thinking of yourself. The wife (in our cases) is in no way realizing the hurt she has done. She's only thinking of herself and whether it's supposed "shame","competition" (of the girl side), or attractiveness, whatever.
Now trying "changing" the CDer in the marriage is doubly (or more) hurtful and damaging than _any_ other thing than could occur. Sure you could maybe convince him to get rid of a model train hobby... but when you deal with crossdressing, you are dealing with the _core_ personality and gender aspect of the person. You sure couldn't say to a wife "I now forbid you to wear _any_ women's clothes..from now on you'll dress as a guy". You can't say to a developing child that they now _have_ to dross opposite their gender. If that was done, that could be called abuse in courts and causing mental anguish. That's what's so bad for the CDer. Our core is a bit more gender fluid. It's not something that can be turned on and off. That's why it reappears in force when purging. It is not just a hobby...it's our "selves". Courts may not agree with us, but in a way forcing a CDer to "give it up" is also just about as bad.
Now, the extra parts to this process of these spouse "demands" I see is this.
(Technically, this can vary a bit...somewhat more of a duality here.)
With a lot of CDers I see them 1: being more in touch with their feminine side and likewise their emotions.
This unfortunately only amplifies the "anguish" felt by their "selves" as these demands are done.
Others (and I'm kind of thinking ones that start CD later in life..but maybe not necessarily so) have been in "male mode" for so long in their lives, that they're "used" to covering up or sublimating their feelings. This can be bad as buried feelings are the perfect fertilizer for the "forest" of discontent (whee...continued metaphors). And like weeds in well-fertilized soil, all sorts of weird stuff can spring up fast and at odd times when there's too much buried. (add in other life events and so forth and it's nothing but tall ragweed amongst the trees keeping the pathway out of the forest to a good "self" hidden).
So overall, what can be done?
I'm not sure myself (these are more observations than experience). I'm definitely not advocating getting a weed-whacker.
It all comes down to the fact that unless the spouse has to realize they _are_ hurting the one they are supposed to love by imposing getting rid of CD, then nothing will change. They have to realize that it's not just a hobby...it's a part of the CDer's "soul" or self they are trying to rip away.
And they have to actually care for someone other than themselves..as not realizing this hurt they are doing is really only for their own insecurities whatever they may be. Ultimately you either have to truly learn to "understand" each other and what can and can't be changed/controlled, and decide from there. And you have to _want_ to truly understand each other for coexistence to continue in a good way.
My deep respect for the GG supporters of the CDers that found out later in their marriage. It takes a lot to truly learn about and support a CDer. Add in outside influences,family,etc it's rough for the spouse to handle and come to terms with. Mainly because it also makes them assess their own "selves" and self priorities along with what the CDer is going thru.
So that's the crux of it.
You can go further into trying to "therapy" things. Bearing in mind, however, that it's a 3rd party involvement and it has to be a "good" therapist that can truly help. And needs to be a better gender trained one who should "realize" the gender "core" issue of the CDer and be able to talk to both parties and be objective about it all. Otherwise, all you'll get is one that treats CDing as a simple hobby..and will only introduce more fertilizer to the forest.
Well.. that's my thoughts. Deep or not, I dunno.
I probably had another thought too..but after almost 2 hours typing this...
But all this observation (as well as age, and seeing so many friend's divorces too) has only added to my own reluctance to ever pursue any real relationship.
Seeing the outright divorce threads, the DADT aspect, and so forth just keeps me thinking of marriage/trans/CD overall compatibility.
Overall, marriage _needs_ to be the coexistance of both partners' individual core "selves". And as one goes thru life, the "self" can change grow and evolve. But it cannot be "commanded" to evolve. I think "self" evolving has changed even more quickly in recent years as the "view of the world" allows for more varied experiences thru life. Gone is the "get married" then "stay as you are till you die" aspect so seen in older years. Society changes. Selfs change. And at faster and faster rates thanks to information flow. And this has hampered marriages all over. And probably is a good cause of issues in several divorces in recent times.
Anyways, take these thoughts for what they are... outside observations.
My thoughts may be flawed, and I'm sure there's variations to it all.
-Kacey