Cliques annoy me!

[Jenniferx]

Cliques- really annoy me, so here's my rant about something that's been bothering me for a long time now. If I offend, I'm sorry but maybe this will start some meaningful discussion and maybe some people will see themselves and realize something from this. Maybe I was naïve thinking that just because we're all in somewhat the same boat and have the same beginnings in our lives that we would all be accepting and understanding of one another, but it just amazes me how many different hierarchies we as trans-people have formed.

I see these cliques in almost everything related to being a CD- maybe this is the irony of wanting to be like a girl, girls can be pretty mean (ha-ha).
So I go on Flickr, post my pictures, comment on other pretty girls pictures hoping that these pretty girls will stop by my humble page and perhaps leave a simple "nice". No I get comments from guys with hairy bodies in pantyhose, or guys jerking off, all types of stalkers, but the pretty gurls I admire, and gush so profusely to, ignore me. The pretty stay with the pretty I guess and I don't fit in that group. I've seen this behavior in myself at times and I don't like it, I try not to judge too much (other than the hairy thing or not trying).

I work up the nerve eventually to go out the club- cliques again, only even more so. This one group at the club I go to cracks me up- Butch gurls who put no effort into being girly (picture Norman Bates wearing his dead mothers dresses-LOL (oh don't write about this it's a joke..but kind of true), they walk and talk like men but just wearing a dress, and they look down on me like I'm some sissy fag they'd just as soon ignore. Then there's the militant types-they don't understand why you aren't like them, you need to come out of the closet, be full-time for the good of the cause. The club is an odd place for a newbie going out for the first time- the passable stay with the passable, the pretty hang out with the pretty, and the wallflowers sit on the sidelines hoping someone will say hi and maybe make a friend. I know we're all different, I wasn't expecting to learn some secret handshake and we'd all be laughing together, but I wasn't expecting the high school cliques, the standoffishness.

Now granted I live in the gritty upper Midwest and were not known for being generally warm and caring people (I do live in the murder capital after all) but we need to be a little nicer to each other, we are unique in this world, maybe more so than any other group of people in the world. So have your cliques if you must, but be gracious and smile and say hi, be nicer. I'll try too.
Love, Jennifer

[Jaylyn]

Hello Jenniferx from Texas. You and I have something's i. Common we both have blond wigs and I love your red lipstick. You are a very pretty gal and although you are a long way from Texas I am gonna send you a friends request. I'm not a pervert just an old guy that enjoys the dressing. I don't understand why cliques would exists especially if we are all walking in heels....

[Deedee Skyblue]

I don't go out, Jennifer, but I am often stunned by the insistence here (not from everyone!) that some of us are doing "it" wrong -whatever "it" may be. We're all here because we're "different". Most of us are not here because we want to change to meet someone else's standard, most of us, I think, want to be accepted as what we are the way we are, including our differences.

Deedee

[Katey888]

Jennifer, (smile) Hi :)

I think you've just described people in general - the human animal has an amazing range for being inhuman towards others, why should we as a group prove to be an exception? I agree it is a shame - it certainly doesn't make me want to go and participate at any local club (not likely anyway...) but it's just a reflection of life's rich tapestry...

I like your message - and I love the Norman Bates metaphor (but I fear that may not have won you any new friends in that clique...) And it's only a small thing, but I try to acknowledge new folk joining and introducing themselves here, because it's the polite and welcoming thing to do - seems like that could do with being more prevalent in the real world too.

And I don't see why you don't fit with the pretty bunch, Jennifer, other than you're new and pretty and folk are b*tchy... :D You can be in my One Girl Gang any day...!

Katey x

[Kristy 56]

Jenn, you're gorgeous in your pictures,so i'm going to assume that in real time even more so. I'm going to venture a guess that some of what you experience is petty jealousies. Just my 2 cents.

[cdmorganashley]

i can't really comment on the in-person cliques as i've only been to a gay club while dressed totally as a male (there were trans-girls there, but it wasn't specifically a CD club), but as to my experience on this site, and at least one other site, i have not experienced the division as you have... i have felt included by a range of CDs of various levels of attractiveness (in my judgment) and i really don't recall feeling ignored by anyone i have made an attempt to interact with, but i think my overall assessment would be that CDs are individuals like any other cross-section of people and some are warmer and colder, but i think it is more about personality than a result of their looks... this may be different in person, but i suppose if someone doesn't want to be nice to me because i am not pretty enough then they are not really someone i would like being around anyway...

i would expect to feel that the regulars are more friendly with each other than with me upon first going somewhere or upon first joining a new website, but i don't think this is particular to CDs...

i'm would also like to comment that in your seeking the approval of "the pretty ones" it seems you might be falling into the very problem you are having a problem with, and i think you are being very judgmental of the "butch" and other groups you describe at the club... i mean not all CDs are going to fit your image of what a CD should be and maybe some of those people would be someone you would find is a great friend to be made... also, unless you have spoken with each individual in one of these "cliques" its not fair to say they all believe one thing or another... i mean i see where you are coming from, but what you perceive to be the way the "butch" girls are looking down on you may not be the case at all unless you have been told this explicitly or had some kind of interaction with them which made their feelings clear (such as they dumped a beer on you or something?)...

anyway, maybe this club just isn't the right fit for you and there is another CD club with a different mix of people that you would like better, but i encourage you to look for CD friends and not pretty CD friends or whatever, and i wouldn't expect any group of people to go out of their way to draw you in, but i think if you put yourself out there and keep an open mind you will find the response you are looking for, and if someone is standoffish try someone else, and don't let it get you down--i mean the gurls i have met on here are nice and many are out there so you are bound to find a few if you keep looking =)

[sweetshauna]

You're pretty enuff to fit with any group in my opinion.
wish I could pull this off as well as you do. don't let the *******s get you down. lol

[Anna H]

Yep, i found out about cliques too. I've only been posting anywhere for
just a few months.

Everyone here has been Very Nice to me so far, and I feel 'protected'
from the riff-raff I've seen at a few places.

Flickr seems to be as close to an internet train wreck as anything
I've seen yet. My aol dial-up in 1997 ran 10x faster. There are some
Very Nice girls there that walked me through avoiding the crudeness
you described. But still, it's very hard to deal with the software
programming that Flickr has.

I like it here Very much and I hope I can be liked as well!

:happy: Kate ♥

[Stevie]

The extremes you are talking about are right on. Very hard to be yourself without being judged. They all have their own idea and if you don't agree with it then you don't belong. Very high school. Thought it was only me but I see you see this too. I told someone once that I went to Royal Oak and was labeled so fast I had to rethink our whole conversation.

[Stephanie Julianna]

Don't beat yourself up. Cliques have been around since the first cave women with less body hair started to hang out together making fun of their hairier contemporaries. In the 80's and 90's there were clubs in NYC for the Andre Pejecs of that generation and the other clubs for the "every girls" that I hung out with. I don't see that changing any time soon. As far as your not getting support when you post in other places just remember that there are a lot of girls here, I'm one, that are not very good at surfing the net and are even afraid to sign on to many things that might stay on the computer where SOs and families might see where we are going. It took me 6 tries just to get signed in here. Others have hacked the Pentagon faster. So I feel safe here and don't need to get pages of someone's image to know that I like them or their look. You and I are friends here and I know I have told you how I admire your look. Never think that our silence in other places is lack of support. We are just net-impaired. We love you. On a final note. Those hairy jerks that surf our world have their own issues so just say a prayer for them. They have their own issues.

[UNDERDRESSER]

It's life. I am very grateful that my current workplace is remarkably free of cliques for the most part. (Of course, the one department I really want to join is run by the cliquiest clique master ever! But I digress)

I think part of what you are seeing, is caused by people not understanding quite, what they are doing. They can't get a grasp of where their drives and urges are coming from, they have limited ability to discuss it with someone outside the group they ended up in, so they tend to reinforce the "group mind"

If some in your group express negative reactions to someone or something, the tendency is to close ranks against that.

[Kate Simmons]

Hi Jennifer, I think I told you before you are very pretty. If not I am now. You know you are right and the "cause" is only as good as the people in it and that goodness comes from the heart and soul, not how we happen to look appearance wise. I wish we lived closer Hon as we would go out and have a blast having a good time. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Be well my friend. ;):battingeyelashes::)

[Beth Wilde]

One of the weirdest things, cliques, especially in our world. There are groups out there who want acceptance in the "normal" (note the ironic quotes) world and yet they judge others in their situation for being "different"! It's really rather sad......

Follow the Beth guidelines:

Those who feel the need to judge you are not fit or qualified to judge you!

If you feel good and aren't breaking the law or hurting someone then who gives a damn what others think!

Don't seek approval from others, seek it from yourself!

Oh, and do talk to the wallflowers, they can be the nicest of people :)

[PretzelGirl]

I would take it as part of the natural process of figuring out who I want to hang out with, in person or virtually. If they want one sided praise, want to accumulate friends without acknowledging me, or anything that makes it feel like less than a friendship, then they have done me a favor by letting me know to move on. It isn't the quantity of friends, but the quality. And once you let that be the yardstick, you will find a lot of quality friends just because there are a lot of good people out there.

[Beverley Sims]

I think it is more pack mentality than cliques.

[Marcelle]

Cliques . . . they are everywhere and "annoying" you bet. The thing I have learned about cliques is that they tend to attract people who want a sense of self importance or validation in their life . . . "We are better than they are". The trick is not to let it bother you because they are the ones with the insecurity to not be able to be just themselves. Belonging to a group of like minded people is fine so long as it is not about lording it over others and passing judgment on those who do not conform. I got into an on line argument with a TS gal in our support group because in her opinion we (CDers) who only dress occasionally should really just stay home because we are not serious enough about being women and if you don't pass well, then you are just an embarrassment to all TG people. Now I am sure she has a lot of like minded people who agree with her and that is their thing but when you get hurtful and mean then it is not on.

Sweetie, you are stunning and should have nothing to worry about, be yourself and just enjoy the world as Jennifer wherever you go and let the cliques hang by the water fountain "legends in their own minds".:)

[Tracii G]

You look fabulous and I agree lots of that going on these days on places like Flickr.
Just don't let it get to you and be yourself.
I seem to attract middle aged middle Eastern men. and yep they are quite hairy Ewwwww.

[Sarah Marie]

Hi Jennifer! I'm still meeting girls here. Sorry you're feeling badly. Your picture is very beautiful!
Hugs,
Sarah

[adrienner99]

Jennifer--First, you look lovely and feminine to me. Love your lipstick! I think your post is right on. But not new. I have sent comments to beyond gorgeous CDs on the web, too--with no response. Even here, where we can at least express ourselves and get some kind of response, I have found it hard to really connect with anyone who is really compatible for friendship. Don't get me wrong...I LOVE this site. But yes, it is very hard I think for a CD to step through the maze of communities in our universe. Yes, even CDs can tbe houghtless...tho I have seen the opposite as well. Once in a gay bar I saw an absolute knockout CD go up to another who had done her best but still just looked like a man in a dress. The beauty grabbed the other CD by the hand and dragged her out on the dance floor. I am sure the one girl was scared, but I think it made her happy to get out there, too....

[Rogina B]

Follow the Beth guidelines:

Those who feel the need to judge you are not fit or qualified to judge you!

If you feel good and aren't breaking the law or hurting someone then who gives a damn what others think!

Don't seek approval from others, seek it from yourself!

Oh, and do talk to the wallflowers, they can be the nicest of people :)

I prefer the mainstream to the gay clubs. Identity issues abound at those clubs and they are very segregating.In the mainstream places,those that accept us can choose to include us or not..Those that choose inclusion become friends. I'll take my social chances in that world.

[Melissa in SE Tn]

Hitting close to this forum home , I too feel Adrienne's frustration in the reserved response of fellow cders who I applaud & encourage . I don't know why there are those who feel it difficult to accept & acknowledge friendship, compliments , encouragement, etc. I do know that as men we are attracted to our perception of beauty. Those on this forum that post avatars, particularly attractive, seem to have a greater audience while we who cannot post avatars, for private reasons, seem to have our voices muffled over. Is there a clique in this forum as to who we respond to & communicate with? Only some introspection can honestly answer this question.

[Lorileah]

wanna be part of the "popular" girls at the club??? Try this. "Hi I am Jennifer. I am sort of new here. You are???"

The only good thing my ex taught me was "This is YOUR house, you need to make the first move. Maybe they think YOU are the one who is being stuck up" You don't have to like them after you meet, but at least you meet them. Besides then you get to be the main mean girl of the club

[Nicole Erin]

That is why it is important to try to blend and mingle within the vanilla/straight community. Now I am all for having TG friends but if some TG do not accept me into their silly cliques, I don't give a damn. There are many more options for friends in the straight community.

I know there is a clique or two in the real-life TG group I sometimes attend. I have no time for it.

I do have a few TG friends. They tend to be lone wolves like me.

One's goal as a TG should be to mingle in the real world and not so much trying to be accepted by other TG who are often hiding, insecure, worried about passing, etc.

[PaulaQ]

I think you make a good point Erin, but I am having an increasingly difficult time blending in the vanilla / straight community. I just don't find I have much to talk about with them. I'm a lot more comfortable around all the gay guys I know now. It's not like I try to avoid the straight world - but I don't really feel like I belong there in any way shape or form. I'm not sure what to do about that. I'd like to - but I just don't. I'm not afraid of them, or scared "omg, what if I don't pass!" - I really don't care about that stuff.

I do have some straight friends who I do things with, and I frequently do things with my sister and one of her friends. But increasingly, I feel the need to edit a lot of what goes on in my life so that things don't get too weird for them.

Back on topic - I agree with Lorileah, and was going to say almost the same thing. Waiting for people to approach you is a recipe for loneliness.

[rocketscientist]

Beth's post= +1! LOVE IT! Jennifer, I would think that maybe you are going to the wrong places at the wrong times. Try to find cd specific gatherings and maybe support groups nearby. Shouldn't be too difficult in the Motor City area. Befriend some girls from your area that are members here. Start networking. Find out from others what's going on and where you can go. Also, are you putting yourself out there to others? Or do you just sit quietly by yourself? If you feel like a fish out of water others will pick up on that too. Be friendly and confident. Inject yourself into group conversations. If they do not want to be friendly or at least cordial they are not worth your time. Move on to others until you find someplace or someone you "click" with. Right now I will personally invite you to the next TG Weekend happening April 4-6 in Douglas/Saugatuck, MI. I'm sure you will find many like minded, friendly people there! Hope you can make it. We usually have a pretty good contingent from the Detroit area come in. Hugs,Tonya

[KaceyR]

This is what I've been trying to figure out around here (same area).
I've dug into the several groups' pages (LBGT) in the area to figure out what their true feelings/impressions of CDers are or if their meetings/get togethers actually include CD. I get hints that one group is more to supporting the family of a TGer than would the CDer herself. Others seem to be focused more on people going thru full transition. So I'm perplexed about what's truly going here in SE MI. One actually meets right next to the building I work at...heh.

I've gotten odd feelings like there's a bit of disdain against CD by the LBG community in general as well so and still haven't exactly figured out if,where,when etc to go to. This aspect has also limited me 'coming out' to a friend of mine..known for a couple decades but she's part of the 'L' crowd. She also has ties to coworkers so that adds another factor.

Add to that is that I'm not the greatest socializer to begin with. It's been some time since I've been to a literal club/bar...and probably 20+ years since going into one solo. And even then that's an added hill for me..esp for Lorileah's take on it. I'm just not forward enough in RL to be that outgoing to start things.

Heck, I was halfway thinking on stopping by the Grand Rapids group for their meeting if my work arrangement works out. At least they are more direct on what they're about as a group.

I'd thought I might ask the folks at Janet's about all of these this week but even Janet's has been a bit standoffish for some.

The cliques side I guess is all over..just another social aspect I guess. (cue high school flashbacks here :)) And yeah logically confusing. As such a group out there trying to find tolerance and acceptance in the world..to not be more open to others themselves just seems slightly hypocritical. On the other side...some could be determined based on past experiences so if they grouped based on some shared intolerant event, possibly as a group they isolate themselves due to that. hard to say.
Overall it definitely is a hindrance to a newbie in the field... Not only do you fight your own battle in just getting out, but then you're fighting this social mess. And for someone just trying to work out who or what you are, it just seems a bit of wasted energy to deal with.

On Flikr.. I've seen it to be a bit messy at times. So I've not bothered with it. I've done my own different hosting of pics for forums and put stuff on my Facebook page but other than that just decided to stay away from Flikr.

[Jilmac]

Hi Jen, from the looks of your avatar I don't understand why the girls on flikr don't reply to you. You look very pretty in your blonde hair and red lipstick. Perhaps your city on Lake Huron isn't as accepting as those on the opposite side of Lake Michigan.

[Leah Lynn]

I'm sure my group isn't the only one in existance that is all inclusive. We try to meet every month and have great time. The bar we go to is quite eclectic; L-G-B-T and anyone else that shows up. Many hetero's frequent the place. Our group has a cross section of this group; cd's, tg's, hetero, gay, lesbian, spouses, everyone. I hear of cliques, like you describe, and find it hard to relate, by comparison. I invite everyone to come to our next GNO, to just have fun in a nonjudgemental atmosphere. However, we're in Iowa.

That's between Minnesota and Missouri, and between the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. Not Ohio, not Idaho; Iowa. That does not stand for Idiots Out Wandering Around!

Hugs,

Leah

[MsVal]

I believe that cliques are in every group of people larger than two, and possibly in some smaller groups too. Don't let your observation get you down. You may reach out to 100 people, but you really can't have that many friends now can you? You only need a couple (and their couple...) to have a good time. The problem may be that you just haven't found the one or two that are good matches and worthy of your special friendship. When you do find those people, please let us all know so we can share your happiness.

[Badtranny]

This "clique" thing is mostly just a figment of your imagination.

Since I live in the real world and have no secrets or closets, I tend to meet a lot of people and some of those people are socially inept. They just don't know how to meet or get along with other people very well. They expect everyone to fall over themselves making them feel special or involved. These are the people that complain about cliques.

Here's how it really works; nobody cares about your social life. If you want to meet people than you have to MEET people. Say "hi" or something, be friendly, be engaging, be interesting, be somebody that someone might WANT to actually meet. Nobody wants to hang out with a sad sack who just sits around talking about how nobody likes them.

[Anna H]

I'm still brand new to all of this myself. I never even
took a single picture of myself til November.

I started out on one of the more 'anonymous' places,
but soon it became clear that i was "too old" for them
there. (All i do is mention my age...which was asked
pretty quickly, and then I'm in my own personal
clique...whether I like it or not.)

I'm still at the point of having little clue what I'm even
doing most days....but I do have some experience with
forums/groups, so I know the only way to get going
is to dive right in and make posts....however scary
that may be. (and after 10 years...it's still scary on a
new forum....never know which clique I'll be put into. It's
never been my choice)

So, I try to throw in a bit about myself with every post to
see where I end up. Strange how I'm 'too old' for so many
places....but I see this is where there are lots of us
older gals so it should work out fine here.

I don't really get facebook....as it seems to me that someone
needs more hours in a day than there are --just to keep up.
And those IM things....I can't keep up with those either.
(i still type with one finger....)

And the 'friend' concept. Do you wait for someone to
be your friend, of do I just 'invite' everyone I see?

The main thing to say is that I'm very friendly, I'm not
much for cliques, I'm dead slow, I'm old, I'm not on the
computer 24/7...so replies can take awhile, I forget,
I'm overwhelmed easily...(work vs. play timing) And, it's
all very new to me.

My experience (limited) with the little cliques at other
places has been that when I end up 'inter-cliqued'...I
get demoted. Why heck, how was I supposed to know...
the rules aren't posted anywhere.

Oh well. I'll just keep at it and see where I end up.
I will say it's a *Much* friendlier place here than what I've
seen elsewhere.

:happy:
Rambling Kate! ♥

[AmyGaleRT]

Well, Jennifer, I think you're gorgeous. :) I think it's just the club you were at. At a place like the Black Crown, you wouldn't get the same reception; we're all friendly there. I know I'm always happy to see a new sister there, and I've brought a couple with me for their very first outings as women.

Don't lose heart! There may be a better place you can go hang out at nearby.

- Amy

[(Sara)]

Cliques are part of every day life in my opinion, I think we are all in one in some shape or form. It is a matter of not letting that get to your head, but it is easier said than done. People like to be with like minded people, it is shown in the class divides, rich marry rich for example. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I think this is ingrained in human culture and it is something we take from some and dish out to others without realising it. My best advice would be to try to accept this is going to happen and shrug it off if you fall victim of one.

[Alice Torn]

I have been a bit of a shy loner much of my life, and cliques are in every school cxlass, every sports team, club, church, yada yada yada.

[Jenniferx]

Well this certainly got some interesting comments! Thanks also to those who sent me kind personal comments. It's fairly obvious that a lot of us have the same feelings about these cliques.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not hurt too badly by this, I just don't think people should behave this way. When it comes to acceptance, after all most of us have gone through and continue to go through... we should know better than to judge or exclude others, I think.

[AllieSF]

I like Morgan Ashley's, Lorileah and Bad Tranny's (Melissa"s) comments. If you are quiet person, somewhat or a lot introverted or shy, type of loner, then your perspective on the friendliness of a specific group may be totally opposite of mine. I think of cliques as being special groups who limit new members. The key is the word "limit". I can go to any party, get together, neighborhood parties or support groups, if it is a large enough gathering, then there are always small groups scattered about sitting or standing or both into conversations that keeps them all together. To me they are not cliques, but just a group of people talking about an interesting topic for them. For the quiet person they may seem exclusive, but to me they are just another stopping point as I make my way around the room looking for an interesting conversation to join.

I have been to two clubs in Detroit, where I think that you may live close to, the Rainbow Room (is it still there?) on 8 Mile Road and Gigi's on Warren Road and the Southfield Freeway. Even though I grew up in the Detroit area, I was not dressing at that time and had no idea that they even existed. I went back there a few years ago and went to both twice in separate trips. I went with someone from the area and a member here, MsGinadoll, for the first times. The other times I went by myself. Both times I had an enjoyable time and ended up talking with a few locals and regulars. No one treated me bad or ignored me, some treated me very friendly and others were so-so. That is just what I expected since I was the newbie and the others were the regulars and some even very seasoned veterans.

When I sat down that first time, I picked a seat close to some of the girls like me and just asked if that seat was taken. When they said no, I took it, ordered a drink and looked for an opportunity to introduce myself and ask a few typical questions while stating that I was new to this club. As the others have said, I reached out to them, not expecting anything more than a light conversation while I watched what was happening and enjoyed my drink. I was the stranger and I made the effort to be included for a short while. I did meet some very nice people and also a few that dressed as they wished and which was not my style. But I just figured that they might also not like how I dressed either. So, live and let live. I didn't have to hang with anyone if I did not want to. So, the choice was mine. So, my recommendation is to just continue to take those first steps of sitting next to the action, introducing yourself and asking simple questions to get to know them, the club and whatever else may stimulate an interesting conversation.

Now, regarding you comment about the upper Midwest not being warm and friendly, I have to totally disagree with you. Now I came from those once peaceful northwest suburbs a very long time ago, but the whole Midwest is generally known for their very friendly and warm personalities. Maybe I grew up in the wrong part of town or at a different time, who knows why you have that opinion. My family, nieces and nephews and their kids still live there and all of our family generations are still the same, outgoing, friendly and fun people to be around.

Regarding the super cute CD's who seem to always reject your attempts to strike up a conversation or to maybe become friends, there can be two sides to that. The first one and maybe the most probable reason, may be that the pretty ones may just get approached by a lot of strangers over time (too many contacts for them) and may like their current group of friends and are not ready for more to join in. That happens a lot. Though, an interesting side of that train of thought is that later in life as I have become very bold in my approach to strangers to talk with them, I have asked several very beautiful young and middle aged GG's about their view point of being the most beautiful, shapely and maybe even sexy women in the room. To my surprise a few told me that they actually were pretty lonely when they were younger because their good looks made others think that they were unapproachable, and they really missed those opportunities to meet new people. Now take all that into our much smaller CD world where in my opinion there are all kinds of us out there, including those that may not fit one's personal choice for an acquaintance, and maybe a few of those girls and ladies have their nice group of friends and really do not want to put themselves in a maybe awkward position of eventually telling someone that they do not want to hang with them on a regular basis any longer. It can be like dating someone where they are into the other person but the other is not and will not get to the same level of interest and may even want to stop the relationship and find someone new.

I wish you the best of luck and please try some of the recommendations given here, especially in trying to take multiple first steps to start the ball rolling. You could treat it as a numbers game where the more you try, many contacts, the better chance you have a meeting a few compatible friends.

[Michelle (Oz)]

You have received helpful comments Jennifer but I'll take a different stance.

My dressing has now evolved to the point it is more just a part of my 'normal' life. I don't feel a need to form part of a group or be with others. Indeed group events require organising and often don't fit in with my timetable. The outcome is that I've formed friendships with a number of people with whom I interact as part of being out and about. As in life, few friendships are close and others are more acquaintances.

Life really isn't a popularity contest - seeking popularity is a recipe for disappointment. It exposes you to the power of others over your life - the more you seek to be part of a group the more power that you give the group over you.

Don't misunderstand me, femme outings with others whether Cder or not are most welcome. We are after all social beings. Perhaps it comes down to the priority we give to acceptance and our own self confidence.

[rocketscientist]

Very well said Michelle. I feel exactly the same way.

[Aprilrain]

I guess I'm a little confused?

So in a sentence or two you dismiss hairy men who mastubate and look like Norman Bates but then you whine about not getting validation from the pretty "gurls"?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying but it sounds like its ok for you to be judgmental of TGs who don't live up to your standard but shame on those pretty bitches for ignoring you. Is that about right?

Maybe they just don't like being called "gurls"
I know I sure don't.

[Dawna Ellen Bays]

I'm reasonably sure I know at least one of the "Flickr Cliques" (c'mon, that's CUTE) of which Jennifer speaks. I often see pics on Flickr taken at SCC, and it seems there are a gang of beauties who love having their pictures taken together, and there's never a picture of any of them posed with someone who's less than stunning, let alone "passable." I totally get Jennifer's reaction, because you'd think that with ALL of us being considered "outcasts" by most of society that there would be a little more camaraderie among us, and not "outcasts" outcast by the "prettier" outcasts. That's not meant to offend anyone, it's just how I see it, and I'm glad I'm not the only one.

On the other hand, of course, I could be wrong about them; they might all be absolute sweethearts, too, and I'm probably just judging books by their covers. I'm friends with some absolute stunners here, and they don't seem the least bit "bitchy" towards me...

[Vickie_CDTV]

As for the whole "everyone needs to be a TS thing", don't worry about it. That trope is as old as the trans community itself. After all these years I still get people telling me I am a TS in denial and need to go down the same path as they are on... like I don't spend LOTS of time with transsexuals and have nothing to compare my experience to, geez...

[Lynn Marie]

I spent 40 years as an on-site service tech. Every day I'd have to meet a half dozen or so people, introduce myself, listen to their problems or needs, and then take care of their needs. It was great fun and very rewarding work. I loved it. Others that I worked with hated the same job! Cliques are made up of insecure people clinging together for mutual support. The "circle the wagons" mindset. Your entry is solely dependant on your own sense of self confidence. Find a person in a clique, get them talking about themselves, and your in! Don't try to impress anyone, don't expect anyone to be interested in you, and don't accept any form of rejection. Being genuinely interested in others is the secret key to people's hearts.

[Dana_Drake]

Jennifer, you are stunning. Perhaps the people who demean you are jealous. In my experience, those preaching tolerance are often the most intolerant.

[Jackie7]

Lorileah and badtrannie have it right, if you want to have a friend you need to get out there and offer to be a friend.

This came home to me in a way I've never forgotten, some years ago when I was just beginning to go out en femme. I met an old college friend for lunch, a GG who through circumstances and a terrible auto accident has become rather unusual looking, what with her mane of grey curls, blind eye, gimpy leg and cane. We were standing in line at a drugstore, she struck up a chat with the person behind us. I'm sure I looked like those Norman-Bates-in-a-dress men that OP describes and was trying to be inconspicuous, and I was quite embarrassed to be drawn into the public conversation.

Afterward I shared my discomfort and asked her why she usually did that, chatting up whomever was nearby. Her reply: "I'm preventing nuclear war. Talking to other people is the only way I can do that." Took me a while to get my head around it but she was right. Sit down, say hi and introduce yourself. Shovel out a compliment, see what comes back.

[Jenniferx]

Well I'm not sure, maybe 50/50, those who got my point and those who missed it completely and only got my snarky remarks. I don't know how anyone could disagree with a theme of more acceptance in the CD/ TG community, especially for those who may need it most (and that may not even be me frankly). I'll be honest I'm glad this torqued some of you up, though I sense some just troll for a chance to light it up anyway.
Next new thread: People who miss the point annoy me! LOL
Jennifer

[Lorileah]

Well I'm not sure, maybe 50/50, those who got my point and those who missed it completely and only got my snarky remarks.
Next new thread: People who miss the point annoy me! LOL
Jennifer

then maybe you need to be MORE clear about your point? No?

[Michelle (Oz)]

Next new thread: People who miss the point annoy me! LOL
Jennifer
I'm not sure which camp I'm in and I don't care. When I put effort into responding to make you feel better about yourself as many have in this thread and you respond as you did then it is like a kick in the teeth.

You are new here Jennifer but now members will know to ignore you. I certainly will.