Divorce

[PaulaQ]

I've been a member of this forum for almost a year now - I think I am a week shy of a year, in fact.

It's been an eventful year. I've gone from thinking "I'm just some kind of a CD", to realizing "Oh crap, I'm a woman", to coming out to my wife, getting thrown out of my home by her, and then starting my transition.

It's a pretty common story - I'm trans, my marriage ends. Happens to lots of girls I know.

So it's time to finally finish things off legally. For the past few months we've been living apart. I've paid all her bills, and done my best to make sure she's OK. I've been rewarded for this basically with abuse - drunken phone calls looking for emotional support, angry texts faulting me for literally *anything* that goes wrong in her life. (For example, she's complained that it's my fault her car got stuck in a ditch, even though I was 200 miles away at the time.)

It's time to end this. It's sad that 17 years of marriage has come to this. But it has - we're over. There's no hope we'll reconcile - there really hasn't been for a couple of months before she kicked me out. She'll never remotely accept me.

I've started threads on my coming out to my wife, our marriage problems caused by "the trans", and our separation. So it seemed appropriate to talk at least a little bit about the final end to my marriage in a thread.

As things happen, I'll update the thread. I'm hoping for a fair and just settlement with my wife that meets both our needs, and allows both of us to move forward with our lives, and to recover from this horrible past year. I'd like to avoid a trial, and lengthy and costly legal proceedings - these benefit no one but the lawyers, after all, generally speaking.

Maybe this will be interesting to some, maybe not. But at least a number of my threads together give a pretty good idea of what it's like to come out as transgendered to a totally unaccepting spouse. It's not a very pretty story, but it's my story. I've tried to be as truthful as I possibly can in the other threads, and I'll do the same in this one.

[Rachelakld]

We hear some funny laws over there, like when a man marries a woman, he has to pay her upkeep for the rest of her life, like she can't look after herself.
And then you have all that "who is at fault must pay more" - like why?

[Anita S]

I'm not a very active member so I haven't come across your previous posts

I just have to say that I feel for you, it must be hard to be so rejected by someone you've loved for so many years.

I find it admirable that you still pay her bills, despite her abuse, I don't think I would've

And thank you for sharing, I hope you at least find some support in telling us and in our feedback

I wish you all the best ;)
Anita

[Angela Campbell]

It is better to do as you are doing with her Paula. Kindness and generosity may seem out of place during a divorce, but years down the road will you feel like you did the right thing?

I went through a rather ugly divorce years ago but I am not ashamed at the things I did.

[Katey888]

Dear Paula - my thoughts and feelings are with you.

I also went through a similar process some time ago - like you, I felt that the right thing to do was provide as much support as I could until a point where, legally and financially, I could no longer do so. You have to be true to yourself and your feelings - and I think you've always demonstrated that honesty here - that way you can feel good in some ways about something that is never going to be a pleasant experience. But to come through with a feeling of self-respect and rightness for you is important, imho.

And yes, avoid too much legal involvement at all costs - nobody other than the lawyers will benefit, you are dead right on that one!

I wish you the best of fortune with this process - may it go as smoothly as possible for you :hugs:

Katey x

[Marcelle]

Hi Paula,

It has been quite the year for you sweetie and I must say given the amount of angst in your life, you have weathered it well. I am glad to hear you are moving forward in a legal sense and hopefully the divorce will be amicable and the settlement just (as you say). I believe though this is a necessary step in you journey forward as Paula and perhaps once this is behind you, it will provide you with some modicum of calm and comfort as you can now concentrate on just being the woman you were meant to be.

Hugs

Isha

[Anna H]

I wish there were something useful or helpful i could
do or say, but i can let you know that i wish you the
Absolute Best. It always breaks my heart to see this
happen to one of us.

♥

[Aprilrain]

We hear some funny laws over there, like when a man marries a woman, he has to pay her upkeep for the rest of her life, like she can't look after herself.
And then you have all that "who is at fault must pay more" - like why?

As of 2010 all 50 states are no fault divorce states. Generally speaking marital assets are split 50/50 and the parent taking the kids the majority of the time will receive child support. This is usually based on a percentage of income. What is weird about that?

you should know your facts before commenting

[Erica Marie]

Hi Paula, from a divorced father of two, I wish you the best. Divorce is never fun but maybe in the long run some good will come out of it. Sounds as if you are fairly up beat and optimistic. I wish you the best in your journey.

[Beverley Sims]

Paula,
I can only wish for a good outcome for you.
It is sad when two people have to split and hopefully you both have better luck next time.

[alwayshave]

As of 2010 all 50 states are no fault divorce states. Generally speaking marital assets are split 50/50 and the parent taking the kids the majority of the time will receive child support. This is usually based on a percentage of income. What is weird about that?

you should know your facts before commenting

Aprilrain, You speak like someone who has never been divorced. In Massachusetts, when I was divorced, alimony was for life. Marital splits were 80/20 or 70/30 in favor of the woman depending on which county. If you were married three years, you would still have to pay the former misses alimony for the rest of your life. Child support goes to 23 even though no one is a child after the age of 18. Oh and Massachusetts child support guidelines are twice the national average. Meaning if you would pay $2000 a month in Virginia, you would pay $4000 in Massachusetts. Fortunately, because of the number of articles in the Wall Street Journal telling businesses not to move to Massachusetts because it could put their executives in financial danger the legislature changed the law on alimony. They did not get rid of it, but reduced the periods and the amounts. I'm sorry when a marriage is over, there should be no such thing as alimony. Reasonable child support and a 50/50 split would be OK, but that's not the reality

[Dana921]

alwayshave

I agree, In Colorado which has been a 50/50 state for the last 25 years or so. No Alimony allowed according to the law. The judges decided in favor of the woman, saying a maintenance payment plus child support was needed to several people I knew at the time. Even (in one case) when the woman was making as much as her husband. When entering a divorce type legal battle, I am not convinced the 50/50 applies as it sounds initially. A good number of friends have been forced to live on a greatly reduced income because the court did not side with them at all. Instructing payments that forced the guy into bankruptcy because of that decision. So working with your soon to be ex is probably more equitable and in the end after getting over the loss and hurt of the experience, the right thing for all concerned.

[Caden Lane]

Thank you Paula for sharing what many of us know to be a painful thing. By all accounts I've read thus far, I would venture to say that you've rebounded better than most. Having been divorced twice myself, I wish I could say I had been as successful. But best of luck and prayers for you as you venture forward.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Paula, it's always so sad to hear a story like that I wish you all the best.
My wife who is a DA--DT but tolerates my dressing will celebrate our 50th anniversary tomorrow 02/01/2014.

[Vanessa Rose]

hmm.

Regarding divorce, i am not sorry when marriages end but more so when they needlessly stay together. I will let the injustices of marriage law alone. They are being challenged in some of the more conservative states because of the reasons stated

Paula, you are an amazing person, conflicted but compassionate and with incredible resolvee. I really want to say, congratulations for sticking by and for doing what YOU THOUGHT WAS RIGHT BY YOUR WIFE! It shows character beyond all, and for me from my view, the act of a gentle person beyond ridicule and rage.

You can't buy that shit in a store. Character to do what's right, no matter what and no matter who's looking is a blessing.

I hope Paula, that you come out in the end with some piece of mind.

I can't help but feel for your wife. She was totally lost, but people change. If you don't remain close and grow together and support one another these things will happen. They happen sometimes even if you are a model spouse.

Thanks for sharing. Listening to your posts gives me hope that a beautifully flawed person, like me has the juevos to stick by what they believe is right for their spouse.

That is character and principle and they are the only qualities in my book, that you can always read to find out what that person stands for.

Lastly, it is my wish, that when this be done, in three years time, after her hatred and scorn has largely vanished, that respect and friendship can rebuild. That is what I am hoping for. I want to tell you it ain't easy, and it ain't going to be easy for a while. But continue being you and acting properly dispite her acts and you will have done all you can to be true to the woman you married. Then it is on to your new life.

Vanny

[MatildaJ.]

Just want to join the chorus of people wishing you well as you enter this new stage of your journey.

[Aprilrain]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I am divorced and I have a divorce settlement with my ex, It is what WE agreed to, it was not court ordered and I was more generous than the courts would have been! The spousal support runs out in 4 years and then she's on her own, though I will continue paying child support until they are 18, of course. I didn't feel it was unreasonable at all, she had been a stay at home mom for the 7 years we were married and had no way of immediately going out and earning a living, should I have just told her tough luck, too bad for you? I have income that could not legally be considered "marital assets" so she would have gotten very little form a 50/50 split. I basically gave her all the marital assets so she could buy a house. I can't comment on the situations you folks described but I bet there was more going on there than meets the eye. The fact remains that all 50 states are no fault states and theoretically marital assets should be split 50/50 how individual judges decide what they decide is not for me to know.

Paula, good luck. Be generous, be fair but don't let yourself get screwed!

[deebra]

Paula, I've been divorced twice so let me give you some real good (experienced) advice (if you want it). Don't feel overly sorry for her and give her more than her fair share or you'll regret it later on. I can well understand and relate to your fourth paragraph, it's definitely a female thing and lastly your're 100% right about the lawyers, the longer they can stretch it out the more $ they make. If you don't know what having intercourse is like as a woman you just might be about to find out as has been said above, a man more so than not gets screwed in divorce court.

[Vanessa Rose]

Aprilrain,


What the facts are, and what reality is are often two different things. I can assure you, people have been and still are getting the short end of the stick in many states, regardless. How about custody? That is not equal! Not where I live. Unless the woman is a drug addled, prostitute, running a brothel in her children[s room and there are regular beatings and other skullduggery, the woman will get the kids. so. Argue, theory or whatever, money vs. having equal time with kids should be considered as a fair barometer to measure this. If local yes, but what about long distance? So much to consider and so many ways you need to have the best possible representation. I agree with that part for sure so you don't be altruistic but fair and expect to be treated fair in the end. That is all we can hope for.


Laws are changing theory has not caught up with practice per se... especially with parenting rights.... but in time that will change too. I am not mad about it, but it is concerning... I did everything in my power to do the best things... and in the end, we stood ground well. No one wins in a divorce, but If I were to want to have won, I would have approached this in an entirely different manner.


Vanny

[Stephanie47]

Paula, if you haven't gotten legal advice from an attorney in your state practicing domestic law get some. It makes no difference what the laws are in my state. Generally speaking the courts rather not get involved in the dissolution of a marriage when the spouses agreed to an amicable settlement. If children are involved it is the obligation of the court to protect their interests.

As to entities not a party to a dissolution it makes absolutely no matter what a dissolution degree says. If you are jointly liable for a loan, the lender is still going to go after both parties.

[Princess Grandpa]

I read your thread shortly after my bubble of denial burst. I was sad and inspired by your story. From your accounts you acted with more dignity and compassion than I would have thought possible. I certainly appreciate wanting to keep the legal battles to a minimum. I have to wonder based on what you have shared in the past, do you believe your ex will likely be reasonable and fair?

I am a firm believer in "Hope for the best but be prepared for the worst". Retain the best lawyer you can find. Don't let your future be ham stringed because you expect others to act as honorably as you would. I'm not saying go in and throttle her, just make sure you don't get taken unaware when she comes at you with her high ticket attorney, that they will expect you to pay for as well.

Hug
Rita

P.s. I think about you frequently. HUG

[Tracii G]

Wish you all the best Paula.

[Emily83]

I'm sorry to hear your news Paula. All the best for the new adventure you are beginning. Enjoy it :)

[Lynn Marie]

I've been divorced for 6 years now. Washington is a "no fault" state. I got 47.5% and the ex got 52.5% of our entire estate. Also, because she hadn't worked for over 20 years, she got refresher training paid by me, and I had to continue to pay half the property taxes for the five years it took my ex to sell the house! Frustrating at the time, but very satisfying now.

AVOID DIVORCE LAWYERS! What a slimmy bunch of vultures. The absolute dregs of our society. I'm not bitter, just educated by the experience.

[docrobbysherry]

Paula, I'm so sorry! But, I've been there and done that. I'm not going to get started telling MY stories that would prove why I hate attorneys much more than u ever could. Now, I'm going to give u some good advice.

Get the best divorce attorney u can afford! In the long run, he/she will probably be a good investment.

Most women that I'm familiar with think that "fair and reasonable" means they get everything, plus alimony, and child support! There's nothing you've posted to mite make me think your soon to be ex wouldn't fall in that catagory!

[carhill2mn]

Going through the divorce process is painful regardless of how "friendly" it is. I hope that you can work out the details without using the legal system. You may each need a lawyer,however, based upon what your wife's actions have been. You must protect your own interests!

Many of us have gotten divorced. In many cases the CD or "T" issues were only one of the reasons, not the only ones.

I wish you the best!

[Donna June]

I've never been married, but what I can add to this is that once all is settled I bet you will enjoy your freedom to express Paula very much.

[PaulaQ]

Thanks everyone for the well wishes. I've filed for divorce now - my attorney informed me that it's in the court clerk's office now. Dallas County is one of the few counties in the state that is relatively trans-friendly, or at least not outright hostile. (For a long time, there were only TWO judges in the state who'd grant gender marker changes, for example. Yep, two.)

I told my wife about the divorce suit this afternoon. I didn't handle this as well as I could. She texted me about something (money), and I just told her via text. This upset her, and made her think I was trying to pull something over on her. I'm not - I told her to hire an attorney she trusts to look over everything I send her, and to make sure her needs are met and that she's treated fairly.

I talked to her by phone, and she asked why I'd started without talking to her first. I admitted that I was kind of scared to talk to her - that I panicked and was afraid she'd try to file quickly and put the proceeding someplace that would be prejudiced against trans women. She told me "I could never hurt you like that - I can't - I'm still in love with you!" It's ironic, because she's hurt me plenty of times since I came out to her. But I just let that drop.

I assured her that my goal was to do this as fairly and painlessly as possible. That the attorney I'd hired had similar ideas to mine about wanting to do this with as little drama as possible, and in a way that met everyone's needs, especially hers.

I felt bad about texting her at first, but I really was frightened about how she'd react. Her reactions for the past 9 months have been just all over the map.

I find it really odd that she doesn't trust me. I've done what I said I'd do, as I always have. Yes, I didn't tell her about my relationship that developed recently, but I felt that would hurt her, for no real purpose. I haven't told her LOTS of stuff about what I'm going through - she really hasn't been very supportive, and her outing me so many times and lying about it made me not trust HER very much. I've followed through on everything I've told her though.

I told her that with everything that's happened between us, that I thought it was unlikely that the two of us would be able to work this out without help from disinterested professionals. We're just too raw emotionally, the both of us.

I'm sad about this of course, but I know this is what needs to happen for the both of us. I wish it would've been different. I wish my problem had been something other than "the trans." Really, almost anything else. Well, as a wise woman once told me, "We can't choose what God gives us."

[traci_k]

Paula, Hoping all works out the best for you. You're doing great girl.

Hugs,

[Katie_Did GG]

I wish you all the best Paula. :gh: Take good care of yourself sweetie.

[Sharon B.]

Paula, wish you all of the best for you. I went through it twenty plus years ago. I have remained single since then.

[alwayshave]

Paula, good luck.

[Michelle789]

Thanks everyone for the well wishes. I've filed for divorce now - my attorney informed me that it's in the court clerk's office now. Dallas County is one of the few counties in the state that is relatively trans-friendly, or at least not outright hostile.

Dallas is one of the more liberal cities in Texas, only Austin is better. I'm not sure about San Antonio and Houston. I wouldn't even think about the rest of the state.

I wish you the best of luck Paula :hugs:

[Megan b]

Paula, I'm sorry to hear this, it saddens me. I got divorced in April, after 22/24 years of marriage (I don't really count the last 2 years separated). It's the hardest thing I've ever been through. Hang in there.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Paula, I was going back through many of your previous posts and we could sure see this building I wish you all the best.

[MatildaJ.]

Good for you, Paula. As for why she doesn't trust you, that probably has to do with the fact that you misled her for many years about who you are.

[Vanessa Rose]

Jess,

That is so one sided of a comment it makes you sound bitter, arrogant and self-righteous.

No relationship is ever that one-sided dear unless it is just your side.

Sorry. Rubbish.

VANNY

[PaulaQ]

the fact that you misled her for many years about who you are.

Well, in my defense, I misled myself at the same time. I can only say in my defense that I never wanted to be trans. Indeed, I was sure I was *anything* but trans.

I think it's somewhat unfair to consider someone living in denial like that as a liar. I can only assure you that within a month of understanding "oh shit, I'm a woman", I came out to my wife. I didn't understand how powerless I truly was over the stuff within me that I fought, sometimes without really realizing it.

Actually the reason she's told me she doesn't trust me is that after 20 years of watching an essentially static image of me - my biggest change in 20 years? I went from dress shoes, slacks, dress shirts to fairly casual work clothes - I've changed massively very quickly. She really doesn't know who I am anymore, and that makes her skeptical of me. In fairness to her, I think the line "but I'm the same person on the inside" isn't quite true, at least in my case. I'm really the type of woman she typically DOES NOT LIKE. If she'd get to know me, she'd discover that. I've changed a lot.

Anyway, none of us have perfect self knowledge, or knowledge of the future. Even if you DO consider that lying, consider that for most of my life, admitting that I was trans wasn't an especially safe or easy proposition, and I'm old - I lived before the internet. It was MUCH harder to get real information on issues of gender.

Oh well, I don't suppose it matters much. This will be over eventually, and I can set about the process of ruining someone else's life. (This is my biggest fear right now.)

edit: Oh yeah - also, I think we've had this discussion a number of times before. Actually I have had this discussion with others on this forum a lot. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter.

[KayleeTaylor]

Paula, you have been very good to your soon to be ex-wife. It also always seems like you have a solid plan for everything you do. I am glad you got a lawyer and I am glad you filed, and I am glad that you have supported her. You have a lot of positives going for you in your case. Good luck with the divorce, I am hoping that in the end, both you and your ex will come to a mutual agreement :)

:hugs:

Kaylee :)

[MatildaJ.]

I'm not saying you're were bad, Paula, I'm saying that you taught her not to trust what you say, because it turned out to be a mask. You didn't have much choice in the matter, but you still inadvertently provided years of incorrect data to her. Trust is hard to rebuild, is what I'm saying --and trying to rebuild trust as your marriage ends is probably a lost cause.

[Vanessa Rose]

Yep your marriage failure was 100% your fault Paula.

Yep sensible enough. That is the way most unreasonable people figure it to be

Get a grip Jess. And drop the holier than now attitude.

Please, let it rest! And if you acted that way to a friend if mine and were skipping all passively and aggressively down my street as a kid, I would have tripped you! I would today as well in a way. You old bat!

Good Lord

Vanny (grrr)

[NoExcuses]

Paula... I am impressed by your strength and conviction. My first marriage ended because of my ex's inability to come to terms with my dressing and who I was. You have handled your situation with poise and grace and I, personally, am proud of you. It is tough.

As William Shakespeare once said: "To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man (or woman)." Polonius, Hamlet

We are all here for you Paula!

[Alberta_Pat]

Paula;

I am saddened to hear that you MUST proceed along this path without the person who you have invested 20 years of your life with.

I am joyed that you are finding YOUR way, and clearing the obstacles to your happiness and satisfaction.

Now that the deed is done with the filing, I strongly advise that you try to find an arbitrator who can help you both in the matter of communal assets. These will cost significantly less than using lawyers to pass information back and forth.

Once you have a mutual agreement, you can set it before the judge who, in many cases, will simply "rubber stamp" the deal.

Even though 50-50 is the "watchword", it can be very difficult to place a real value on things.

I wish you well in this life changing action.

[docrobbysherry]

Paula, good work in moving forward. But, try to prepare yourself for the worst. Which is likely to come soon. Once she finds an attorney, expect things to get very acromonious!

Getting divorced is a very traumatic experience. U both will feel cheated and lied to. And, u both will be rite! Don't try to remain friends thru it. After it's all done, then try to become friendly, if u can.

[Michelle789]

I'm not saying you're were bad, Paula, I'm saying that you taught her not to trust what you say, because it turned out to be a mask.

Jess, the reality is this is happening because of things that Paula, her wife, and society have no control over.

1. You are powerless over your own gender identity.
2. You are powerless over your SO's gender identity.
3. You are powerless over how your SO will react when you tell her (or him) about your gender identity.
4. You are powerless over how society treats transgender people.
5. You are powerless over the fact that not much was known about gender until the last 5-10 years.

I hope some day in the future, we will be a society that is more accepting of transgender people, and that the information is available, that treatment is covered by insurance, and that trans people can transition at puberty before even thinking about getting married, and that transition is your birthright if you're born in the wrong body. We have a long way to go as a society but hopefully we will be there someday, and hopefully the next generation of transgender people will have it much better. Unfortunately, many of us on this forum were powerless over society's norms and lack of information, had to suppress this gender stuff, and got married because that's what we were supposed to do.

I have read numerous tales on the internet about MTFs who were in their 30s or late 20s, in the 1990s, who sought out therapy, wanted to transition, but their therapist told them that they need to settle down with a nice girl and get married. They would proceed to get married, have a child or two, and then 20 years later the GD strikes again, and now we have transition and divorce. I have heard this story way too many times. We are once again powerless over society's norms and lack of information.




Paula, you have been very good to your soon to be ex-wife.

Seconded.

[PaulaQ]

I'm saying that you taught her not to trust what you say, because it turned out to be a mask. You didn't have much choice in the matter, but you still inadvertently provided years of incorrect data to her. Trust is hard to rebuild, is what I'm saying --and trying to rebuild trust as your marriage ends is probably a lost cause.

Alright, thanks, that makes more sense Jess. I think that is close to the issue, but after thinking about it some more, a more precise way to say it would be to say that after years of not changing at all, to the point where I became the rock she moored herself to, I changed radically, and rapidly, and so she literally doesn't feel like she knows me anymore - or that it's even the same relationship. The relationship changed so radically that even though my overall trustworthiness didn't change (actually it improved), the basis for trust is just gone. She doesn't know me anymore, so she can't trust me. And unfortunately, she knows that I'm sneaky, clever, and quite a lot smarter than her, so she has reason to fear me.

I appreciate what you've said - it made me think about trust from her perspective, and sure, she has no real reason to trust me at this point, and you are right - trying to re-establish that is likely a total waste of time. Still, all I can do is try to treat her fairly. Maybe she'll eventually come around, probably not though.

[Alice Torn]

You have sure been through he mill, and grinder, too. A horrible year indeed. It is very hard to have to support someone who no longer has any respect for you. I can only say, that i empathise, as I am basically divorcing my whole family of origin this week.

[Barbara Maria]

One of the hardest things I've ever had to do was face and accept the fact that my marriages had failed and were over.it's been twice now(nothing to do with dressing,they just didn't like me)and in both cases I let it go on way too long before calling it off.It cost me a ridiculous amount of money,especially the first one,but I have the peace of mind knowing that regardless of what she might say,I know I gave it every chance I could.That peace of mind is something money can't buy.You'll find that same peace of mind down the road and be glad you handled it like you did.Hang in there,it takes a while but it does get better.Barbara

[Patty-Fay]

Paula - I am immensely impressed by your level-headedness. You are behaving totally responsibly, and there's no question that you're doing the right thing. I know that things are going to be tough for you emotionally, for awhile. But you will get through this, and life will be good again. Look forward to a bright future.

[DahliaLeigh]

I hope things go as smoothly as possible for you! My divorce to my first husband was, luckily we talked like adults and came to an agreement on custody and Idaho has support guidelines so we just went to the office give them income and they figured all that and I did all the papers myself. I know for a lot of people it can be very messy and very hard but just stay true to yourself decide what points are most important to you and be firm but kind. Your strength is obvious I think you will come out the other side a happier more free woman!

[Stephanie Sometimes]

Hi Paula,

It sounds as if you have been through so much in just the last year and now are facing the emotional and financial turmoil of a divorce. Sometimes it seems like life is a never ending obstacle course with new challenges appearing just as soon as you have overcome one difficult period in your life, right?. I hope that this current hurdle is one that you can navigate with a minimum of distress and it leads to a time where you can concentrate on the positive aspects of becoming the woman that you obviously were meant to be. Being true to yourself is a tremendous source of inner strength and you must be tapping into that given the progress that you have made in your transition.

Take care of yourself and keep letting us all know how things are going. It’s great that you are able to share your journey on this forum. We are rooting for you and wishing you the best.

Big hugs,
Stephanie

[PaulaQ]

@Alice - Thanks hon, and I'm also glad to hear you are "divorcing" your family. From what you've shared, they are toxic people and no relationship with them will ever work. You are better off without them, which is really, really sad.

@Barbara - You are right. A wise person told me last night that I can't control what others do - all I can do is keep my side of the street clean.

@Patty - thanks so very much hon. Once I'm through this, I really do believe it'll be the worst part of transition.

@DahliaLeigh - Thanks hon! To be honest, as long as I end up with enough resources to transition and not go bankrupt, she can have everything else. If I get through this with my life, a place to live, and a car, I'm happy.

@Stephanie - I honestly think my life is like a game of frogger, played at 2x speed. It's just all reflexes. There's no strategy, just reflexes.

[kittypw GG]

Yep your marriage failure was 100% your fault Paula.

Vanny (grrr)

Paula IS 100% responsible for the divorce. Paula got married as a man with a women who wanted to be married to a man. Get it?? I flat out told my husband that if he were a women in a mans body that the deal was off. I was up front and honest with him, he was never up front and honest with me. Plus Paula can't even wait until the ink dries on the divorce before taking up a relationship with someone else. How respectful is that? There have been other deceptive behavior in Paula's marriage as well so Vanny get off your high horse and stop being so bitter yourself. Grrr right back at you.

[Vanessa Rose]

Kitty Dear,

Why must you think we need your "GOD ROD" to judge her. And if that is the opinion of how marriage works, and the "BLAME" then I can't believe your opinion because that word is from pain and is not beneficial to move on. Blame is an excuse to stay mad and pick sides and whatever. Mine costs me much more than 1000/mth. Yep. That is what blame does. After all has been settled after all documents signed and after under the law, they agreed to everything. To blame or need to place judgement, Is to not let go and I have and will not do this any more. Nor will I look at any relationship and say who is to blame.

I think it fair to let whomever's God, take on the hateful or vengeful role vs any here yes? It makes us who cast this hate seem, less than reasonable but worse yet, it means that they have not moved on if still casting these nasty accusations

AND AS FAR as not letting the ink dry.... When is the exact time? Are you going to determine when is the right time or just point your finger and scoff? Really. I ask you. Please tell us exactly what and when then? YOU CANT. What is the time needed to do and deal with any of this stuff that has been back tabled for so many years.

Kitty,

There are no rule books on this. There are no formulaS to make this right for anyone. There are no words to express what bottling any feelings up for years WILL DO TO A PERSON.

THe same feelings you have expressed in your finger pointing and "blame" assignment are I would think appearing as raw as Paula's need to do whatever she needs to do. BUT SHE DOES NOT MEET YOUR APPROVAL or meet your timeline and or appropriate amount of blame. Get a grip!

It does not matter when ink dried. Paula knows her situation and for what it's worth, has had to do what she feels is the best course. I don't need to defend her but I do need to point out again, that if everyone throwing blame and pointing fingers would look at their own raw feelings perhaps those would be better dealt with first vs pushing this rubbish on another that you HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ITHER THAN THIS FORUM.

I am going to rest like a baby now. Why? Because I did what was best! I know I have done my best to DO WHAT WAS RIGHT VS WHAT WAS BITTER AND SCORNFUL AND RAGE-FILLED.

Perhaps getting a grip on ones own life would be more appropriate than this kind of non-sense

I will let others add their thought.

Vanny

[Ellie52]

Paula
As far as I am concerned.
D I V O R C E
Dressed In Violation Of Relationships Code (of) Ethics
It causes far more problems than it needs to.

I am so sorry to hear about the break up of your marriage. I hope there is light at the end of the tunnel and it aint a train coming.

Best wishes... Ellie

[Caden Lane]

Perhaps Paula is in a hurry to be in a loving, understanding, accepting relationship. Perhaps that's just as respectful as her former spouse outing her, against her will on multiple occasions. But I suppose that was Paula's fault as well? You must live in a perfect little paradigm where its easy to reveal gender dysphoria, where ultimatums like you gave your husband are an example of true Love. I mean, how is giving an ultimatum like that an example of Love or understanding?

I suppose it never occurred to you that your husband might have been resistant in telling you the truth because deep down he knew you'd have that sort of pent up frustration, anger, bias and resentment and acceptance, true acceptance, would never be something you were capable of. So with him fearful of that, who'd blame a spouse for harboring secrets.

Paula did violate some trust in her marriage. I think we all understand that, and we do not see her former spouse as the villain here. Yes, some of the spouses actions were distasteful. But does that mean paula should pine away for a woman that no longer wants her, and was willing to exhibit such vengeful action as outing her? I think not. She set some courses of action in motion, just like Paula did. But spouting vile rhetoric and blame fixes nothing.

[PaulaQ]

Paula IS 100% responsible for the divorce. Paula got married as a man with a women who wanted to be married to a man. Get it??

Well, I do. I guess it is all my fault. All I can really say in my defense is that I've never wanted this. I have always just wanted to be a normal person, and accepted as such. I tried to be one - acting the part, even though I never felt it. I was in the wrong body. :( I know that many don't view me as being a normal person though, although that's all I've ever wanted to be. I tried desperately to lead that life. But I am not, and I cannot. I know that I will NEVER really be accepted. I am simply not one of you. I'm sorry, so sorry - I never asked for this. :( Believe me, if I could be like you - I would.

At least you view me as a human being - many do not. Some few view me as a monster. Such is my life. Why would anyone choose this? It is certainly my worst nightmare.


I flat out told my husband that if he were a women in a mans body that the deal was off. I was up front and honest with him, he was never up front and honest with me.

In all fairness Kitty, I'm not the same person as your husband. I'm not sure it's fair to lay his sins at my door - I have plenty of my own, of course.


Plus Paula can't even wait until the ink dries on the divorce before taking up a relationship with someone else. How respectful is that?

Well technically, I took up with someone before the ink was even on the divorce papers! I have no defense for this. I'm not pining away for my wife not because I never loved her - I did and do. I hope some of my feelings about her come through in various things I've written here. I gave up all hope on the relationship when she told me I no longer deserved to wear my wedding ring, and then kicked me out of my home and left me to live or die on my own. (It really hurt about the ring - I hadn't given up, I wanted to find some way to make it work.) I don't mean to be overly dramatic, but in retrospect, I'm still somewhat surprised I made it out alive. I am certain that had I not started HRT so soon after leaving, I wouldn't have made it. I'm frequently scared - I am going through the worst thing I have ever gone through in my life. When someone reached out to me - it was irresistible. As with everything else in my life though, I am sure I'll be judged for this too.


There have been other deceptive behavior in Paula's marriage as well so Vanny get off your high horse and stop being so bitter yourself. Grrr right back at you.

I've lived a life of deception. It seemed like the safer thing to do. I can't imagine coming out as trans as a kid in the 60's or 70's. I can't imagine surviving that in Texas where I was born and grew up. I did introduce myself as a liar in my intro post here. I guess I am one of the more dishonest people on the forum.

If it makes any difference, several years ago, my wife went through a terrible crisis that resulted from something that happened when she was in high school, and she faced terrible depression. This created an enormous strain on our marriage - it was the worst crisis we'd faced as a couple prior to my coming out. I tried to support her during her troubles. I don't guess it makes any difference though.

edit: I forgot to mention that I got word today that my case really was finally filed. Apparently a paperwork snafu delayed the filing. But it's filed now. I am told we got a liberal judge, which is good news for me, I hope.

[Erica Anne]

Paula,
I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you can get through this without the stress and anger which is typical. Matters not what the reason is, but what transpires during the event can be brutal. Stick to your guns and you should be fine. I never backed down in my divorce and I was pushing to go to court. Unfortunately I was not overly satisfied with the outcome. It is what it is. It can be a roller coaster, I hope yours is a smooth one.

Hugs,
Erica

[Amanda M]

To Kitty, Paula, and all of those who posted on this thread. Sometimes, I don't have a lot of time for the Bible. I am not a practising Christian. However, there is some great ancient wisdom, such as "Let he who is without blemish, cast the first stone" and "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

What I am saying - or trying to, is this. I suspect that Paula, and her wife, entered into their marriage with love for each other. I do NOT know, really, if Paula knew at that time, what road she was going to take, and for Paula's wife, the recent revelations must have been devastating. Me, I'm just a plain vanilla crossdresser. My wife is fine with that, and I am so fortunate. That is OUR situation. That said, if I said tha I want to transition, I could perfectly well understand if there was a backlash. Circumstances alter cases.

All I can say is that I hope for both of you, that there is the best possible outcome in the circumstances. With the caveat, Paula, that you must make SURE that you get the best legal advice to ensure that you are not financially destroyed. Don't let that happen, however your guilt feelings (if you have them) are. Look after yourself, because trust me, the system will not.
Hugs. Amanda.

[PaulaQ]

I suspect that Paula, and her wife, entered into their marriage with love for each other. I do NOT know, really, if Paula knew at that time, what road she was going to take, and for Paula's wife, the recent revelations must have been devastating.

We did. I didn't know at the time, 20 years ago, that I'd transition. I hadn't even CDed in 4 years - I was sure I never would again. I mean, I didn't WANT to do that. I didn't understand how powerless I truly was over my gender identity. I didn't understand powerlessness at all really. I do now - and I sit here typing this humbled and humiliated. Had I known, perhaps I'd have come out when I gained sobriety 24 years ago. My life would've been unrecognizably different. In 1989, the information available was so limited, and Texas was even more hostile than it is now. I don't regret my marriage, neither does my wife - she just wants it back, but with him, not me. I can understand this and respect it, but it makes me sad, given the impossibility of it.

I do have a good attorney. I'll follow his advice, of course. I need to insure that I preserve enough resources for transition. If I fail that, I die, simple as that. My wife doesn't acknowledge this as a reality, despite my prior suicide attempt while I lived with her. I reached the point of "Transition, or Die." I have no choice but to follow this path. I don't know that I'll survive it even if I complete transition - far too many of us do not. It's just the only plan anyone's offered me that seems to have any hope of addressing my plight. It's a terrible plan though!

Seriously - why couldn't I have gotten cancer, instead of being trans?

edit: One question for Kitty, or really any other person who'd care to comment. Does anyone here really think that I knowingly, deliberately, and willfully deceived my wife for 20 years, and simply dropped the deception for selfish reasons? That's a fairly incredible assertion! Why on earth do you speculate I'd do that - what possible motive could I have for it?

[Dana_Drake]

I don't think Paula needs to justify or explain, and I doubt she needs our affirmation. Like anyone going through hard times it helps to tell someone. She faced a hard choice and made a decision. There are some who are able to lead double lives, to play charades. Paula obviously isn't one of those persons. I don't think anyone would choose her fate. Her comment
Seriously - why couldn't I have gotten cancer, instead of being trans? says it all. Paula, all I can give you is good karma, but I'll send all I can your way.

[Billiejosehine]

Paula seeing what you have been through gives me great strength and courage to move forward with being who I really am. I went into the marriage in self denial and therefore incapable to tell my wife at the time. She is made at me for not giving her the choice and she doesn't know who I am anymore. It was never my plan to device her, but I tried to be a somebody that I was not. My GD has hit me head on, with the divorce happening, and many other issues. I'm left torn and in emotional turmoil. My mother new something was up with me when I was a teen and asked if I needed counseling, I said no, but I wonder what my life would have been like if I made the choice to do something, instead of saying no. Right now I'm left going back and forth between what I want, even though deep down I know what I need to do. You did once say I'm a transition or die moment; I'd rather transition then die; and I have set out a plan for myself. I just can't wait till the dust settles

[kittypw GG]

edit: One question for Kitty, or really any other person who'd care to comment. Does anyone here really think that I knowingly, deliberately, and willfully deceived my wife for 20 years, and simply dropped the deception for selfish reasons? That's a fairly incredible assertion! Why on earth do you speculate I'd do that - what possible motive could I have for it?

Paula I have a great deal of empathy for you, I have told you so. I do not speculate as to the why, what or how. I just said that you not being a man anymore is the reason your marriage is done. You changed the rules not your wife. Forgive me for being sort of confused by you as you have said that it has been a relatively short time that you felt you were a women trapped in a man's body. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that you said you did not feel this way from childhood. Now all of a sudden you are transitioning?? And you are already in another relationship. No wonder your wife is angry. I would not trust that this is the answer for you either. To me it seems like you don't know who you are. That is not a judgment but an observation. I worry that you won't be happy once you get through transition, that you perhaps are not being realistic? Whatever............ what I think really doesn't matter. I don't know you or your wife personally. Just stay in therapy and work on yourself. ok?

[Vanessa Rose]

Let the Blame die and new hope open an eye to possibilities and reasons to fly high, down low or up in the sky...


I am happy today that others have jumped in too, not to defend, but to push back the not so fair side in this discussion.


I wonder if you GG's judge yourself, in the same manner that you judge. I read people for a living, and do not think so... Whatever the reason for such hatred, it will not come from me further.


I am done with this discussion and have said all that I can to highlight what I felt are the faults with the finger wagging and blame ridden estrogen balloons here.


Enough said..


Vanny

[PaulaQ]

@kitty - I know that many here and in the world will never accept me as a woman. I've had gender issues since childhood. I am the type of person who desperately wants approval from others. Coming out at a young age didn't seem survivable so I buried this stuff until it exploded last year.

I know though that as I transition, I am trading my life in the normal world, indeed my very personhood, for the ability to be comfortable in my own skin. I have no real choice, I'll die before I'll go back. But if I'm not a real woman, nor a real man, then am I even a person? Seems unlikely.

It's sad, I lament losing the normal world, part of me really wants to fit in. But I never have, so I'm not sure why I even still care, but I do.

[Zylia]

I don't know what you mean Paula, you're one of the realest persons on the board :D It also really is none of anyone's business what you decide to do with your love life. Let him (and her) who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.

All the best!

[heatherdress]

Paula - I also experienced a painful divorce from an abusive spouse - abusive to both me and my children. I can only offer my sympathy and assurance that this difficult time will pass and you will be much happier. Get a good lawyer. Work out. Go to church. Keep your friends close. Don't let it effect work. Get a therapist. Don't engage your soon-to-be ex. The less emotional proceedings are, the better for both of you. No matter how difficult or unreasonable proceedings get, try to stay positive and focus on your future. Don't blame yourself for things you can't control. Try to accept that you did your best. Get over guilt. Don't look back - look ahead. Good luck.

[kittypw GG]

I read people for a living
vanny

lol that is funny.

[Vanessa Rose]

and I rest my case folks!

[PaulaQ]

Can we limit sniping back and forth in this thread please? I really don't want the moderators to lock it. Thanks.

[Patty-Fay]

Paula IS 100% responsible for the divorce. Paula got married as a man with a women who wanted to be married to a man. Get it??
Well, I do. I guess it is all my fault. All I can really say in my defense is that I've never wanted this. I have always just wanted to be a normal person, …
Er, no – it isn’t all your fault. The “Paula issue” was certainly pivotal, but your wife had a choice, and she made a choice based on her emotional reaction to the situation.

I'll contrast this with my situation – which has nothing to do with crossdressing. My wife and I had a fantastic sex life before we married, and this was rather important to me. I was married once before, and the sex was terrible (I’ll leave that long story for another day) – and I vowed not to make that mistake again. After we were married one month, the sex went from (at least) daily to 3 times a month. In a year or two, it was down to 2-3 times a year, then once every year or two. It’s now been 5-6 years since we last did it.

The relevance of my little story is this: your wife married a man under the expectation he was “normal” (for lack of a better word). I married a woman under the expectation we’d have a good sex life. In both our cases, the situation - and relationship - evolved negatively in unexpected ways. I can blame my wife for the lack of libido (and unwillingness to seek help), and I could use this as an excuse to get out, but I haven’t. I accepted the situation. Your wife could have chosen to accept the unexpected situation that developed in her marriage just as well. We play the cards we are dealt.

[Greenie]

Paula,

I spoke with you when I joined this forum and there were days in which I wish I knew you in person so that I could give you a hug. You were in a really bad place. I honestly think 100% that there are women in this world who cannot deal with the idea of being with someone with gender issues. I don't think it would have worked out with her no matter how hard you tried. I don't think you even had told her when we first talked. You have changed a lot in the last year, I have been here since April I think and have gathered a lot.

The hard part is that it sounds like your wife relied on you a lot in the relationship. I know its hard for you to want to help her. You KNOW that you didn't ask for this and you have tried so hard to maintain taking care of her. Giving her the "life she deserves" you have been very selfless even when realizing that it was a detriment to your own health. A lot of these posters don't know you how I do, so I guess take all comments with a grain of salt.

You are Trans. Admitting that to yourself, let alone her. Was hard. Are you supposed to deny who you are in order to stay with her? I doubt you would be around today if that were the case.

I have heard much fault on her part for the last couple months. Its not her fault you are trans, it's not her fault that she feels cheated out of the life she thought she was going to have, but divorce is not your fault either. Sometimes two people are just not meant to be married.

Thats my 2cents anyway.

[Stephanie Sometimes]

@Stephanie - I honestly think my life is like a game of frogger, played at 2x speed. It's just all reflexes. There's no strategy, just reflexes.

Hey Paula, I know what you mean when life turns into the game of just reflexes, when all you have time to do is react to the crap that gets hurled at us in rapid succession sometimes. It just seems to me that you are beyond that now; you are taking control and making the changes that you need to do. You are awesome gal in what you are doing and an inspiration for many of us on the forum, even those of us who don’t plan on transitioning.

Don’t let the mud slingers get you down as they seem to live in some fantasy world where every marriage is supposed to be some fairly tale and when the marriage fails it must be the fault of the guy that is the CD or TS. The fact is that people change and evolve, circumstances change, shit happens and when one person in the marriage can’t cope with those things the marriage can become unsustainable.

It takes a long time to get over the gender brainwashing that many of us endured growing up. Like you I was born and grew up in the arrogant state of Texas, only quite a few years earlier. I was encouraged and indoctrinated at home and at school to be more manly. My years in junior and senior high school are seared with the memories of being ridiculed for not being manly enough. Fortunately I was mentally tough enough, smart enough and big enough not to get physically bullied but the psychological scars lingered for decades.

Don’t shortchange yourself on the divorce settlement by being too accommodating to your wife and giving her more than her 50%. I know the feeling from experience, 35 years ago in Dallas when my first wife filed for divorce (because she had someone else) I just wanted to get away and start my life over again. I did not hate her even though she was not faithful, I only wanted to move forward in life and get past the sadness of the split. I let her keep the house and a lot of other things while I went off and bought a lesser house consistent with one income. Years later she made out like a bandit on real estate and I wound up losing money. Looking back, I was way too accommodating in the settlement.

Hang tough gal,

Hugs,
Stephanie

[PaulaQ]

@Greenie - thanks for your support hon, I know you are right. I had hoped to find some "middle-path" as others on this forum attempt, but for me it was impossible, and it wouldn't have made my wife any more accepting either. And you are right - I provided a sort of frame of reference and support system for my wife. This required that I didn't change much at all over the years. So when a sudden cascade of changes started happening with me - she simply couldn't relate to me anymore. She was unsure of herself, she didn't know who I was anymore, and she HATED the idea of any amount of femininity in me. It simply couldn't work anymore. My coming out effectively ended the relationship.

@Stephanie - I'll definitely watch out for myself in the settlement. I have to insure I have resources to complete my transition, or all of this will have been for nothing.

@ Both of you - I'm also sometimes surprised at the amount of vitriol here over the ending of someone else's marriage. About half the marriages in the US end in divorce, often over pretty petty and stupid things. Often there's really no fault, just two people who are incompatible. The law in many states recognizes this, but we still insist on finding fault for some reason. SOMEONE must have done something wrong - or it would continue forever happily, right?

I know my transition touches a raw nerve for many GG's here. I understand this, and am quite sympathetic about it. Look - I am the worst case scenario. I was happily married for a long time, NO evidence of anything going on with my gender that the outside world could see, in deep denial mode myself. And then it explodes like a bomb, I come out, we separate four months later, I start transition, and then start a divorce at the beginning of the next year, with lots of unpleasantness between us along the way. I also understand that many trans women, before they start HRT, are often just horrible people to be around. The stress of their GD finally makes them just impossibly nasty, or any of a number of other horrible character flaws. In my case, I was always a really nice guy - my GD was directed inwards in the form of self-loathing and suicidal tendencies, so I was mostly pretty easy to live with, at least compared to so many others I know.

I really don't take it too personally when some of the folks here take me to the woodshed in the thread. I can't help being trans, but I've tried to be as ethical as I can. We can debate, I suppose the morality of starting a relationship six months after separation, but before being legally divorced. But in general, if we are discussing morality, then I'm already damned for being trans, right? So is being trans, and in a relationship that much worse really, than just being trans? I didn't rub my wife's nose in it, someone either violated my trust, or she went snooping around looking to see what I was up to. Well, she didn't like what she found, and I'm very sorry for that, I truly am, but I don't feel much guilt about it either. To my mind the marriage ended in June, when she told me that "I HAD NO RIGHT TO WEAR MY WEDDING BAND ANYMORE". That broke my heart, and I stopped wearing it from that day forward.

Anyway, all of that is between me and my creator, and if he judges me for it, then he does, as is his prerogative.

[Caden Lane]

I just do not see the point in postponing dating once you are separated. If a spouse or partner, kicks you out, insists on a separation/ divorce, then in my mind they've given up any rights or say so in how I manage my life. I mean seriously! What are you supposed to do, sit around wringing your hands wishing she'd take you back even though she has no intention of accepting you as you are?! Life moves on. And if she had wanted you to stay, then by God she shouldn't have pulled the trigger on getting you out. And whether you left on your own accord, or because she forced you, it doesn't matter. Hell, she told you she felt you had no right to wear your weddingband... i think that speaks volumes to her intent, and to where your frame of mind should be as far as new relationships. She set things in motion through her contempt and lack of compassion.

I'very been cast away. I know how it feels. I gave myself a very modest amount of time before I started dating. Not out of respect for her, or some misguided grieving process, but because I wanted my head on straight. And when ppl throw us away, they deserve nothing from us. Not respect, but certainly not loathing. Any emotion wasted on someone who would throw a person away, is wasted emotion.