Why is it so taboo?

[Christen]

I keep thinking about why crossdressing is such a taboo. As far as I know it occurs in every culture, new or old. Happens at every social level. It's not confined to colour, background or geographic location. It's been happening since the dawn of time. And yet it seems to be taboo in all societies. So many other customs have seen great change in acceptance, but not crossdressing.
Do you know of any cultures where crossdressing is seen as acceptable by the majority?

Christen x

[Barbie Anne]

Samoan Fa'afaines But that's more like a recognized 3rd gender.

[Sarah21]

Similar to Barbie's comment, there are the Hijra's in India, the Muxes in Mexico and the Two Spirit native Americans.
All can be considered as a third gender but are generally accepted and in some cultures it's considered a blessing.

It's widely accepted in Thailand as well.

It's taboo because it isn't considered the norm by the society that we live in.

[Jenniferathome]

Christen, while you are correct that cross dressing has existed everywhere and every time. But iti s not accepted anywhere (no, not even Thailand. Ladyboys are not cross dressers) because cross dressing fundamentally challenges manhood as it is typically understood in any society. How can one be a "man" while one is presenting as a woman?

[Tina_gm]

I am going to say that CDng is something that lies in between.... so the problem is variance and the fact that people cannot accept as readily someone who is either or.

[Aeslyn]

Another recognized third gender would be what is now referred to collectively as two-spirited peoples among Native North Americans though among many groups this was about "crossacting" rather than merely "crossdressing".

It is an interesting thing to look at though, whether or not crossdressing was traditionally taboo in most societies. I think I might just see what I can find outside of third gender classifications.

[Tina_gm]

Pink, are you saying that among the weird, we are weird??

[Jilmac]

I wouldn't call it crossdressing but the native americans had sort of a reverse culture whare the men dressed in bright colors and wore fancy head gear while the women were generally in drab.

[Mistyjo]

Essentially, we live in a society with very rigidly defined gender norms and although it is not ideal, our society is also built up on masculine being seen as superior and ideal. While our society tends to look at any form of gender transgression as taboo, it is even more so when a male does it because to many he is perceived as not wanting to "be a man" and weak. Even more disturbing is how a man dressing in a noticeably feminine way is perceived as gay. While there certainly are gay men who crossdress or are big time gender non-conformists, the overwhelming majority of them are very gender conforming. Also, far more straight guys like to crossdress or have some other way of expressing a noticeable level of femininity, but they more often than not keep that part well out of sight.

Ultimately, two things have to happen for crossdressing not to be considered taboo. First, it must be seen as a completely separate issue from sexual orientation (which it is). Unfortunately, far to many straight guys who transgress gender norms will never come forward about this. It's unfortunate since they have a lot more power than they realize. Second and most important, society must start valuing femininity as much as masculinity

[Bonnie Chan]

I've heard crossdressing is quite accepted in Japan. There's even a maid cafe with CD as a server. Or maybe those are more like crossplay I guess?

And no, crossdressing is not even heard in Thailand much. Most are ladyboys as Jennifer said. I'm from Thailand so I know :)

[Beverley Sims]

Christen,
India, Japan and Thailand?
I really don't know about the majority side of it though.
I notice Jennifer gives a contra view on this.

[Adriana Moretti]

I am no expert....but it goes waayy back in history....and still taboo....can you imagine being a cd in the 1700's...with those corsets, dresses wigs etc..on some Mozart type stuff...i saw on the National Geographic channel that Ben Franklin hung out in a brothel with cd's...dont know if its true...but interesting

[Sarah21]

Sorry it was me that said that crossdressing was accepted in Thailand. I know it's not the same thing as being transgendered or ladyboys.
I just assumed that given the amount of ladyboys in Thailand that crossdressing wouldn't be seen as such a taboo subject.

Is there a link? If there wasn't so many ladyboys in Thailand and less acceptance, would there be more crossdressers? or would it matter?

I honestly think I would have followed a different path if being transgendered was so acceptable where I grew up and I know the path isn't an easy one.

[busker]

Christen, I'd put all my money on both genetics and hormones. Probably hormones for a major part of it but those are controlled by genetics and with all the possible combinations and switches involved, there are surely going to be some "glitches" creating variations that we see every day: blue eyes are relatively new in geological time 6-10 thousand years, before that everyone was brown-eyed. Could be something that came as a result of a defective Neanderthal gene--who knows. There is new evidence that modern man interbred with Neanderthals as there are genetic markers but we seem to be selecting them out over time. For the children who are certain at a very early age that they are not the sex that they seem to be, I suspect it is very much a genetic issue, for those who start at puberty, I suspect that hormones under the influence of genes is the problem, and since a lot have reported here that in their later years the cding has really kicked in, it is again a time of hormonal change in which estrogen starts playing a larger role for men. Moobs are estrogen acting in the fatty tissue that causes moobs, and gynecomastia though similar, I believe to be something else when it starts in puberty. It is for me a better explanation to why we do this rather than the often rationalized reasons like "my mother ate bagels on fridays" or I was brought up with lots of women around. I would say that being raised exclusively around women would affect ones thinking and views or the world but NOT how one would want to dress.\
The reason I think it is so abhorrent is that it involves deceit in a very visible way. We wouldn't want people dressed as cops running around only to find out that they weren't. trust would become a major issue, though it is well nigh impossible NOT to recognize a female dressed pretty much however as one, from a pretty good distance ,and being able to see the face.
All the places in the world that have a "3rd gender" usually seems to involve some religious aspect and there would be no real comparison to a society that had 3 "genders" walking around, man woman and CD. Religion provides so many exceptions to a lot of things: human sacrifices , for example.
Sadly, I don't think this will ever be accepted by society because there is nothing to gain in its acceptance. It is not the same a lesbian or gay people where the major difference is in sexual orientation but we are not otherwise "fooled" by their presentation. in fact, gays and lesbians don't seem to be all that accepted in society now despite the media, and marriage possibilities..
TS is only physically available now due to modern medicine and surgery. I suspect that in historical times the TS were part of the cd community, if it is not a modern construct. We see them as either female or male. There are no "traps" to fall into.

[Rachel Morley]

No matter what time in history I feel it's always been a taboo thing to do. I think it's because people don't understand why a male would want to move toward the female side, and in effect, reject their "male privilege". I think guys who are not TG just don't understand the attraction of feminine things.

[busker]

Ben Franklin hung out in a brothel with cd's...dont know if its true...but interesting
that is was a disguise for a male prostitute rather that what we think of as a CD. It may very well been the same sort of "disguise" that was used in the theater eg: women's parts were played by MEN until Charles II decreed that women would play women's parts. See the movie/book about Ned Kynaston (Stage Beauty is the movie) the greatest of theatrical female impersonators .

[Christen]

Thanks to you all. As with many things in this area, we probably hold more knowledge than anyone else, but still we don't have definitive answers. Funny thing too, that I think until the late 1800's the term boy didn't even exist, and all young males were dressed in the same clothes, hair styles, etc. as female children until they got to a certain age (if you look at Renoir's paintings and see a little girl, you are looking at his son). And guess what, nothing suggests that they grew up to be crossdressers or want to become women. Does that say anything our perceptions of 'normal' .. not that we aren't, I'm officially normal (psychologist said so).

[Joanne f]

Hello Christen,
why does crossdressing feel like a taboo subject , well just type in Crossdressing and hit the keyboard and see all the sites that come up , how many are like this one which Admin and the Mods work very hard not to let anything seedy come into this one ,so when the general public start to look at cross dressing they start to assume that it is done for one reason and simply do not understand that there are many aspects of wanting to cross dress and in a way you know this so you are judging your selfe by what you think other people are thinking of you so you have to get past that and just believe in yourself and why you are like it , not always an easy thing to do because you can go about quietly doing your thing but some of the pubic can be quite verbal about it which can being this taboo thinking back into your mined .

[noeleena]

Hi,

Two details here.

Define crossdressing , men wore dress's skirts and makeup wigs heeled shoes and a lot more and looked in many case's more feminine than women 1400 to 1700. and acted in a way more feminine many did not all .

The SCA today reinacts those times and im a member of the SCA,

there is a 3 rd aspect here often over looked call it what you may = 3rd gender= what ever ,

we are here to stay maybe 10,000 of us are not many world wide, and id say theres many more just not known reported or dont wont others knowing and we are all different in our own ways some of us dont conform to the preconcived idear of western thinking of male or female ,

we are a mix of both made up of both so rule us out we dont exist as many people would like to do because they are so blinded and dont wont to understand ,

Well we are still a part of every other human beings of this world just born different thats all.
And we have as much to offer as any one else,

As for the clothes we wear when all said and done they are just our body coverings fashion has made them into what is the preconceved idear that its only men wear this or that and women the other to mark a difference between what we wear, take all our clothes off we then see men and women and for some of us we dont look much different though some of us do and that makes us then as being different, i cant help giveing mixed messages of myself though im female its distracted by my facial features,

Westeren socity is so strung up about clothes well some with in socity that they miss the person and only see what they think your not,

...noeleena...

[Tina_gm]

Neoleena, I think the idea of how colonial American men dressed and lived, or acted has been stretched over time. Yes, there is definitely the formal dressing which by today's standards would almost appear to be cross dressing. I would not say that it is more feminine than what the women wore though. For everyday work attire it was not very interesting at all.

[Marcelle]

While I am quite sure that cross dressing has been around for a very long time, with the exception of some the native cultures across various countries (we are not talking today though but the past before the influence of Europeans . . . not a hack on Europeans ladies just history), cross dressing was always taboo. Some will say that men in the 1700s dressed in fine garb, wigs, make-up so it was more accepted then . . . going to disagree. That was fashion which was set by the wealthy elite to showcase just how wealthy you really were. Men of no fortune did not done feminine style garb but dressed drab as that is all they could afford. Likewise men of influence and wealth did not go about in public dressed in corsets and dresses because it was not accepted. Did CDing occur then, you bet, in public possibly but not likely.

WRT today, I would say it is still taboo because people see it as an aberration to the natural way of things. I mean heck why would a guy want to dress like a woman, act like a woman and be accepted as a woman. We always talk about male privilege like it is some secret order with handshakes and funny hats . . . I don't have a hat nor do I see myself getting any privilege of being a guy but alas there is an under torrent of such a thing and why would a guy want to give that up. Hence the taboo, you are obviously flawed/damaged in some way if you want to give up the glories of being male to become female. This won't change until society's view on gender expression changes. So I am afraid it will stay taboo until people look around and say "Hey . . . you can still have your funny hat and handshake . . . welcome to the club of male privilege regardless of your gender or gender expression."

Hugs

Isha

[kimdl93]

I know of several non-western cultures that are far more accepting of gender variants. A related question might be 'why is western civilization, esp. The US and GB so repressed?"

[Tina_gm]

Kim, the U.S especially seems to be among the more repressed of societies, with exception to middle east society, which is the most repressed. Why it is that we are so uptight when it comes to gender variance and sexuality.... I really do not know. We are coming around a little bit, but still far behind many other cultures and societies.

This one always gets me thinking.... Perhaps transgenderism is something most people simply cannot grasp. Sexuality is an easier grasp than TG is. Even if there are many who do not agree with certain sexuality, they can still grasp the idea of it.

I know this is a far stretch.... but marine mammals such as whales, they never actually sleep. They shut down parts of the brain for rest periods. As humans, we cannot grasp this. We can't partially shut down a part of our brain while also remaining awake to function. So, for a very large majority of people, the idea that gender is mixed is something they simply cannot grasp. Some can accept that it happens and be ok with those that are TG. But most, because there is no grasp of concept, I believe that is what makes it so taboo, IMO

[Jenniferathome]

...I'm officially normal (psychologist said so).

I hope you got a certificate and framed it! ;-)

[busker]

Kim, the U.S especially seems to be among the more repressed of societies, There is currently legislation before the Arizona governor that would allow businesses (and individuals) to not provide services for the gay (and read LBGT) community based on religious beliefs. That could extend to many groups of people. Use your imagination. So, it is VERY unlikely that if the LGBT community is going to be discriminated against despite all the acceptance hype in the press and the 20 states that allow marriage, anyone who hopes to fool the average citizen with cross dressing is bound to be disappointed in the outcome. Society has absolutely NOTHING to gain, and even when they do, they seem to vote for the people who would turn it on its head. a few people in the world --comparatively speaking-- are accepting of different life styles, but don't bet that you are going to be allowed to strut your stuff with impunity.
check out this article in today's NYTIMES
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/us/religious-right-in-arizona-cheers-bill-allowing-businesses-to-refuse-to-serve-gays.html?hp

[Jenniferathome]

Busker, you make an assumption that 1) businesses will jump on this band wagon and 2) those businesses will survive.

Some Small businesses owners will express their beliefs by refusing service. Most of them will fail miserably. All small businesses live and die by word of mouth. Treat one customer badly and word spreads. Only in small, conservative towns will such a business be able to discriminate AND survive. Even at that it will be a modest survival. The vast majority of businesses want your money before anything else. Profit is the great equalizer. Any business that arbitrarily discriminates will be gone.

[busker]

Busker, you make an assumption that 1) businesses will jump on this band wagon and 2) those businesses will survive.


Well, the problem is even if businesses DON'T jump on the bandwagon outright, it will certainly pub a damper on "coming out" parties because the LBGT community will start to march right back into the closet. Then there is no change and they will not be denied service. Yes, some businesses will fail if they enact certain policies, but then one must ask how many gays will announce themselves in advance, and how many are there in most owns. Most cities in the USA are less than 12-20 K population (older statistics and may have changed) and there are more than 12000 cities in the USA. If there are 10000 puritans and 2 catholics, who is going to win? Standing legislation has a powerful effect on how people declare themselves. In the 50's it was "no Jews allowed" at our country clubs which established "a separate but equal" kind of mentality. do we really want to re-visit that? Peer pressure is a very strong thing if you are a member of the business community.
There is nothing wrong with assumptions. If fire will burn me, I assume that by putting my hand in the flame, I'm going to get burned. Assumptions are also based on on a certain amount of fore knowledge.

[kimdl93]

Turns out, CDing isn't taboo:A taboo is a vehement prohibition of an action based on the belief that such behavior is either too sacred or too accursed for ordinary individuals to undertake, under threat of supernatural punishment.[1][2] Such prohibitions are present in virtually all societies.[1] ...courtesy Wikipedia.

It may seem taboo to some, but given our collective experience, it's clearly not taboo in western society today.

[Jessica EnFemme]

I don't think females wearing mens' clothing is taboo anymore, is it? I remember girls in the late 80's wearing a tie and mens' hats. I think Madonna started that. And you see it sometimes in high fashion.

Still I don't think it's fair girls can wear a t-shirt and jeans like men, OR t-shirt and skirt while we are only "allowed" to wear pants. Grrrr...

[Tina_gm]

Busker, and anyone else for that matter, while it may not be what most on here would want to hear, I am perfectly ok with legislation that a private company be allowed to discriminate. Let them serve or not serve whoever they wish. It is their business so if they want to limit themselves and make less money, fine. Just because there is a legislation that says it is ok to do so won't hinder progression that we have seen. businesses are not being held at knife point by our holy government which can do no wrong and being forced to do business with a minority group. TBH, most private businesses were already serving or not serving who they wanted to. Like the photographer who took a pass on a same sex wedding.... Most who would decide not to want to partake and offer their service would come up with an excuse not to be available or whatever. Plenty of photographers out there who have no problems with it, and in fact would be honored to be the photographer and will gladly cash the check. Same goes for most businesses. Have faith in people, at least somewhat. I know it is a long road to the acceptance we seek, but we are moving forward, and no government legislation is going to change that.

[Robert]

This is a great question, but it needs to be contextualised.

Crossdressing, on the face of it, seems to be a taboo, but there are anomalies everywhere. As has been previously mentioned, women can pretty much wear what they want with no social repercussions. Diane Keaton has made a career out of it.

In some circumstances men can quite safely wear 'women's clothes'. For instance, for the last month in my home town of Perth, the official art festival is running. Adjacent to that is the Fringe festival which is full of burlesque shows, drag queen reviews, and plenty of men dressed as women for the purposes of entertainment. The stage production of Rocky Horror Picture Show is also in town, and a great many members of the audience attend while wearing costumes from the show. There are always a couple of Frankenfurters in the audience. Dame Edna Everage (aka Barry Humphries) is a scathing critic of Australian society, and is, in reality, a man in a dress.

I have been to many fancy dress parties in my life, and there is usually some man there in a dress. For some reason, macho football players tend to dress up as women in skits and plays.

So, it seems to me, that MtF crossdressing is very acceptable for comedic or entertainment purposes, but not in other contexts. As someone upthread has pointed out, this speaks to the ways women are viewed within our society, and men who want to dress like them are either figures of fun, or viewed with deep suspicion.

[Eryn]

Kim, the U.S especially seems to be among the more repressed of societies...

I think that it is a mistake to lump the entire US together as one "society." I'm a Westerner which is a quite distinct society from those of Southerners or New Englanders. We have different priorities and value systems.

It would be equally incorrect to speak of "European society." A German isn't much like a Greek who in turn isn't much like a Spaniard.

[FemPossible]

I saw some people mention Japan. I'm no expert on Japanese culture but I have researched it back in my obsessed anime fan days. Most of the time they crossdress and feature "ladyboys" for sexual/fetish reasons. I really wouldn't consider that progression.

[Taylor Ray]

Turns out, CDing isn't taboo

I tend to disagree. "Exact semantics" don't really apply here. Cross dressing is "taboo" as it is not readily accepted in our culture. Being a minority of any sort is difficult. In our case, our minority group has been associated with "perversion".

Many religious fundamentalists consider gay people to be "perverted". As others have mentioned in this thread, our minority group is smaller than the gay minority.

Unfortunately, many fundamentalist-type people are incapable of having open minds. It might ultimately be about the limitations of their brains, not ours.

[Tina_gm]

True to a big degree Eryn.... but we do have a fairly consistent approach to what is accepted in public as far as advertising, what is allowed with movies and TV shows etc etc. Definitely, and I have had the opportunity to see a good section of the country, there are a lot of differences and perceptions among the people of the U.S.

[busker]

but we are moving forward, and no government legislation is going to change that.
Just exactly WHERE are we moving forward? Every time on turns around there is more legalized discrimination than ever before. Voting is being effected because minorities are being cut out of exercising their rights. Women are having problems with their health needs, and prescriptions. The GLBT community is at the point of this legislation, but the serious problem is that it provides a stepping stone for every state where religion is big to write laws using religious preferences as the basis of laws. This would have a major effect on women's right to abortion, for the GBLT community we could go back to jail time for sodomy since the bible says that this is a sin. Legalizing the position of religion in the courts would seriously violate the separation of church and state doctrines that have been in place since 1786. The church could BECOME the state and that would really be a bag of worms. While a lot have stopped going to church, that does not mean that they are not wed to their bibles in all matters. There are even cds here who feel the conflict. Yes, every business can hang out a sign about who they will or wont serve and that is legal under current law but we are now adding religion to the mix and that is BAD.

[Barbara Jo]

It's simple really.

Men are supposed to be the strong ones, the protectors, the providers.
A man dressing as a woman goes against everything society says a man should be.

On the other hand, women are traditionally viewed as the weaker ones and when they dress as a man, it is considered a step up. She can still be and act feminine and..... wants to be feminine when wearing male clothing .

However, a male can never be masculine while wearing female clothes and does not want be/act act masculine anyway .

[Tina_gm]

Busker, you are IMO fearing the religious right way too much. I understand that should that sector gain a lot of power, things could go quite badly, but, even among the RR, things are beginning to change. Attitudes are changing, those which truly oppose us are now only the farthest out on the limb. And there is ever more anti discrimination laws out there, hate crimes etc etc. We are moving way forward from where we used to be as a society as a whole.

I would state though, that when we see other religions having certain abilities applied, because of religion (not christian) they don't have to work this day, they are going to wear this item of clothing, they are going to pray at this time of day.... and often times businesses are making special exemptions, and I am fine with that as well. There is nothing wrong with religion. (I am not a christian BTW, but I do have spiritual faith that there is something greater) I agree very much that religion should be separate from state. And we have never been farther separated than we are today. No need to fear the Religious right boogeyman. They too are beginning to change, believe me.

[Isabella77]

In the bird world the males are the pretty ones. I used to have a red winged blackbird at my balcony while I was with my ex. His mate was a plain looking little brown thing that had no real appeal. Skank! :devil:

[Jessica EnFemme]

On the other hand, women are traditionally viewed as the weaker ones and when they dress as a man, it is considered a step up. She can still be and act feminine and..... wants to be feminine when wearing male clothing .

Yes, well, let's hope that stereotype gets further overthrown next election if Hillary (crossing fingers) gets elected. She wears power suits, Margaret Thatcher wore power suits, Angela Merkel wears power suits... They get to wear menswear, we should be able to wear womenswear and be treated equally!

[Ellie52]

Christen
My two cents worth. How do you define a CD?. If its just one who wears the 'clothing' of the opposite sex, then there is less of a problem. I wear womens panties, jeans, t shirts and cuban heel boots regularly to work and at home. Not one person has commented. I wear a tie wrap skirt (sarong) at weekends. My wife made me a few of these but was reluctant to allow me to go to the shops in them, even though the kids and neighbors have no problem with it. Recently though, we went to the beer (bottle)shop and pool shop with no adverse reactions. Today, we went to the 'normal' shops and again no adverse reactions.
So, am I crossdressing? I went to the shops with a pair of flats (shoes) a tie wrap skirt and one of my wifes T shirts with lacy panties. To me this is crossdressing, presenting as male wearing female attire. To some crossdressing has to involve complete transformation into a woman which,as far as I am concerned is OK but I think this is where the disagrement with society comes in. (A bit too weird).
I will say I live in Australia (Summer at present) and we have a great relationship with Indonesia where sarongs are very popular. It probably wouldnt be as acceptable in Alabama in the middle of winter.
Yesterday I bought another pair of womens shoes (with my wife) and the SA said it was very common to sell certain types of womens shoes to men. Not high heels just flats and low heeled boots.
If cd'ing ONLY involved wearing skirts etc I think it would be acceptable in society by now, but the wigs and breast forms and mskeup etc add a degre of deviancy that will never be acceptable - unfortunately....Ellie

ps Im not having a go at people who do go the whole way as I sometimes enjoy doing that as well. I was just trying to answer the OP.

Its all in the definition.

[busker]

Just read this article in the NYTIMES on transgender discharge form military service. read it and weep.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/opinion/sunday/baird-the-courage-of-trans-soldiers.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0
While the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell” in 2011 meant gays and lesbians could serve openly in the American military, transgender people still cannot, because the military defines gender nonconformity as a psychological disorder. So transgender soldiers serve in silence, facing dismissal if exposed.

Nine percent of transgender people who have served in the American military report being discharged because of being transgender or gender nonconforming. Almost all of the rest stay quiet for fear of harassment or abuse.
While Britain and Australia having serving members who are TG, the USA doesn't.
Read the article as I think it highlights again why acceptance is so far away if at all. Clearly the "umbrella" does NOT cast a wide shadow of protection.

[JaytoJillian]

My theory is simple--A premium is placed upon manhood in most cultures. So much so, that when women emulate men in choice of clothing, mannerisms, etc., it is not a big deal, and the attitude is "they are simply aspiring to be what is valued most."

Because the opposite is true for womanhood in many cultures, for a man to reject the masculine and gravitate toward all things feminine is seen as a rejection of what the society values most, and "we can't have that, can we?"

[KaceyR]

Well, a lot has already been pointed out here.
Part of the situation in the U.S. and others is the religion input and control.
For all the want of separation of church and state, the influence is extremely being felt in today's government and politics.
And that's scared me, more for the logic/illogic issues. (Who cares about facts? Seems to be the thought in government and their decision making processes anymore :( )

On the clothes side, we can easily apply the "women can dress in mens clothes,why can't we in women's?" logic... But again logic isn't treated so well nowadays. And logic alone won't change minds it seems.
The same thing applies with the 'reasoning' of why to CD...
_We_ may understand the difference between gender and sexuality. But the average person can't reconcile it.
(Hence the 'are you gay' assumptions). And they won't take some decent amount of time/effort to analyze / rework their own thought on it. ('Since it doesn't directly affect "me" it's much easier to just keep my old mindset'). Only if something is discovered closely relative/friend-wise might they look into it better.
The gender/sex aspect is also even a new thing to consider even by psychologists / therapists... So with the science-side a bit inexact it adds another layer.

Some mentioned other countries like Japan, the thing there I think is due to being a strong historical aspect.
CDing is thought in general to be primarily a couple forms... Gender expression, and fetish.
But there is the third form and has historically been part of Japan for some time...
Art,entertainment, as example Kabuki theater (1600's). And this theater has also had their lines of masters and masterworks.
Family names are traditionally kept strongly tied to these areas...just as a lot of varied skilled craft will have their known family names for the 'masters' of the trades.
Kabuki had its own seedy times...and shifting styles. Women played both gender roles for a time 'onna-kabuki'.
Later men took over both roles 'yarou-kabuki' and also it stabilized the theater style and legitimacy. It was _the_ thing to experience in city-life back then (going to theaters in 1600-1700s).
With all the Traditionalism that keeps as a core of Japanese culture, it's no wonder that CDing may be a bit more understood or identified there.
There's still the additional seedy fetish side...and the clubs you can go to to drink with CDing "waitresses",etc..just like you can find clubs having servers for all sorts of oddities. Clubs for drinking, cafés,etc are all over trying to be 'unusual' for attraction. But even these are handled with a great amount of professionalism..Japan is tops in the customer service side for these as well as stores. Wish this aspect spread to US...sigh... I digress tho.
Japan has also had its own religious upbringing with a more Buddhist and Shinto style which isn't as controlling or guilt-driven which may have allowed for acceptance of these things as well.

Now we have this in our way...what is the Drag shows nowadays. These are a different performer however, with the emphasis on over-the-top flamboyance, attitude, and with ties to many different art forms (comedy,pageantry,etc). Even these are limited in understanding by general population. It also is running into its own heyday recently however...thanks to popularity of Logo network, RuPaul's Drag Race (still a better "reality" show than most reality crap on TV nowadays, IMHO). But even this popularity doesn't really 'help' a standard CDer form of acceptance.

Aside from all this, I do think that there are bigger inroads being made to the knowledge of gender and transgender. It's getting more portrayal on TV, along with the GLB side of things. Also, a lot of this knowledge is learned and understood by us here thanks to the Internet.

Unfortunately, the decision makers, and leaders in the country do their own thing and don't want to deviate or change anything. (Metric's an example...I'm still annoyed how US is stubborn to not shift, I learned it in school in 70's..it's a logical system, easy to understand...then they drop it altogether and keep with the 'old ways') Things like this are keeping the country seeming more and more backwards. A lot get in office at an age that where they won't change, won't learn new things, or consider themselves above any such needs. This is a mindset across the country-and will hamper advances in any new or progressive thought. Fixed thought also is dangerous however.. When you know how people think it can make them more easily controlled or manipulated, especially by those with big resources behind them (media,corporations,lobbyists,government,etc).
Become stagnant in thought and self advancement as a nation, And you become less of a significance and more a joke in the world.

On the Arizona decisions (yay...let's head back to the 1950's thought..:( ), my Facebook popped up with a lot of talk. A common pic was of one AZ pizzeria's sign they put up showing support with "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Arizona Legislators" ... The problem is this won't really impact the rule makers there either. Doubt they themselves are involved with small businesses,pizzerias,Etc). If a business wants to limit their clientele by blocking LGBT folk...I guess they'll legally be able to. I'm hoping there'll be enough supporters (even non LGBT) to directly report support and loss of business to these places and maybe sometime down the line they'll learn how they've hurt themselves.

All in all, I myself am doing a _lot_ more paying attention nowadays to supportive businesses and places. If nothing else, it at least shows the owners aren't about to shoot themselves in the foot financially due to closed-mindedness. I frequent a small diner regularly Sat mornings and other workdays after work. I brought up my CDing to a waitress there and asked about issues with me going there sometime while dressed (usually I'm there after work so not dressed). She actually asked the owner about it...who said he didn't have any issues with it whatsoever. And this is from an older guy in his 60s himself. Whether it's his thought on CDing, the fact that he's known me (gone there regularly for several years now), or the thought of losing business I don't know. But it's sure too bad more people don't think this way.

[Lynn Marie]

"Why is it so taboo"? It just is. Maybe that's part of the allure!

[kimdl93]

My point, in the wiki post and other comment may have been a bit indirect and unclear. Based on my experience and that of many here, CDing is far too widely accepted, tolerated and protected by law in most jurisdictions to be considered taboo. Yes, certain religious groups and regressive individuals may feel otherwise, but we are largely free to conduct our lives without official sanction. We find ourselves portrayed in the media both positively and often. That's hardly a taboo.

[Barbara Jo]

Yes, well, let's hope that stereotype gets further overthrown next election if Hillary (crossing fingers) gets elected. She wears power suits, Margaret Thatcher wore power suits, Angela Merkel wears power suits... They get to wear menswear, we should be able to wear womenswear and be treated equally!



Woman wear masculine influenced clothes just to be excepted in a masculine run world.

[Christen]

Thank you!, to everyone for your input to this discussion. It is terrific to see all your views and insights.
No wonder I enjoy this place so much.

Christen x

[April_Ligeia]

Funny how crossdressing appears in every culture and is taboo in every culture. Just reinforces that no matter where or when we were born, we would be in the fringe. Oh well, I just don't even care any more at middle age. I just don't have the mental energy for outrage any more. Human beings are a bizzare species of animal with some weird hangups. At least they don't burn people at the stake any more.

[TeresaCD]

I've always thought that it's so 'taboo' in the west, because we are often afraid of that which we don't know or understand.
It has been, and is, socially acceptable in many eastern countries (but not all)

[sometimes_miss]

Most societies throughout history depended upon men for the protection and defense of their existence. Before projectile arms, females were simply considered weaker in battle, as well as submissive; as nurturers, they were also seen as less likely to finish off an injured enemy. A male exhibiting female behavior in any way would be suspect to submitting to an enemy quicker than a 'normal' male, so he would be considered a weak link in the chain of protection that society, and as such, wouldn't be considered useful for anything, but using up food and shelter resources. Women see feminine men as potentially not willing to defend those women from attack. So women don't see us as potential mates to have children. Then of course the sexual desire is gone, so they have no use for us either. Hence the propensity for our societies to consider mtf behavior a taboo.

[Brittany CD]

Look at it this way; do we generally approve of others who are actively trying to make themselves look like other people? Do we like people who go out and trick others into believing that they are a different individual? Now imagine you meet a girl one day and it turns out that's not only the person you thought she was, but she's really a guy. As much as I love dressing as a girl, I can see why people don't like it

[Donna St. Marten]

I agree with Brittany. Crossdressing has a unique deceptive aspect to it, which others might not appreciate. Except for magic shows, people really don't like being fooled.

[Jaymees22]

Sometimes the taboo part makes it more exciting. People are generally uncomfortable talking about gender and sex. They don't seem to understand that they are two different things.

Old joke "How many children do you have? We have 3, one of each."

[Katey888]

I've thought long and hard before responding to this... the theme is a central one to why we are all here and not just getting on with life however we please...

What is a taboo anyway? To paraphrase a wiki definition: 'A strong prohibition relating to any area of human activity or custom that is sacred or forbidden based on moral judgment and religious beliefs' - to break a taboo is considered objectionable by society in general...

So simply, the oppression of one minority by another minority who harness the voting power of the silent majority who harbour no real wish to understand or accommodate 'weird' minorities like us.

I don't think we are subject to a 'real' taboo by society... Those would be actions such as incest or cannibalism, for example - both supported by a very strong practical and moral rationale. A number of folk have touched on why it is taboo here - in my mind, principally that gender issues are misunderstood and will remain so by academics and therefore lawmakers and voters. The reason behind this is simpler: there is no pressing economic reason why we need to be recognised by society at large - nobody cares, because the real impact of transgenderism is small. That's not a judgement on those TG/TS folk that genuinely need help; but it's no difference to the thousands of people who may suffer a debilitating disease but it will never be researched because the economics just don't work out. To the outside world, we could simply get on with what we want to do today - most of us... If we choose to... :thinking:

Is this taboo more in our heads than in reality...? I think perhaps it is.

Is the bigger taboo perhaps the more damaging impact our families and loved ones would experience because of the anticipated humiliation and sense of shame that they would feel about any public outing of ourselves? I think so as well.

Another thought provoking one - and another good reason to crack that bottle of cabernet again... :)

Thanks Christen (working on behalf of Aussie wine consumption again...:devil:)

Katey x

[Annaliese2010]

The public unacceptability of M2F transgendered behavior by normal gendered males and females is ingrained i.e. genetic, in a general overall sense. I mean to the extent average human thinking and behavior is genetically influenced - which it is alot IMO.

Why? Well we have to go back in time to find out. Climb in and I'll pull the control stick back ~~~(time machine mechanism whirring n whooshing~~~~~~~~~~

The emergence of self-aware behaviorally modern humans occurred ~45,000 years ago. Throughout the many millennia that have come and gone since then, our very survival as a species depended on traditional male qualities like brute strength, power, aggression, risk taking and the will to dominate. Watch that tribe over there hunting down that enormous Woolly Mammoth! OMG! ~~~ now look at the males in that other tribe fighting off a Saber Tooth Tiger, protecting their women and little children (aww?). So yeah these genetic traits were necessary and had obvious evolutionary importance. Strong males survived and propagated. Their gene pool concentrated and amplified in time. Males that were weak by comparison, such as those who by their nature did not possess these qualities and certainly those who exhibited behaviors that are more female-like such as conflict avoidance, submissiveness and nurturing were much less likely to survive and pass on their genes.

So the way I see it, to answer your question, it's like...there is a natural inborn tude against us because we deviate so much from the male norm. The standard normal patterns of male (and female) thought and behavior that have become ingrained over vast periods of time make it very difficult for them to understand let alone accept us for who we are by our differing genetic makeup.

Only very recently, on an evolutionary time scale, have things changed in such a way that allows M2F transgendered girls to survive and thrive. Why? Well it's because...like beginning with the Rise of Civilization to the Middle Ages; the Age of Discovery to the Age of Enlightenment; the Industrial Revolution to the Scientific Revolution, right up to and including the modern age of science and technology, our society has advanced to the point where those traditional male qualities once so important to our survival as a species have become decidedly less important now.

In fact by the passage and enforcement of the multitude of laws and regulations common to most advanced societies today there is a decided de-emphasis of previously valued traditional male-like behaviors such as risk-taking, extreme assertiveness, aggression and forcefulness. In spite of this welcomed new standard for acceptable male behavior parochial attitudes regarding gender issues lag behind, haven't changed much and will probably persist for a very long time.

That plus how the average GG woman still privately values and needs the sense of security provided by a male who, underneath his tempered, toned-down, held-in-check forceful self, there is a "real man". They need to know he has the strength, power and willingness to throw down and unleash hell to protect her (and the kids) and jealously defend her from harm if needs be must. Generally speaking, a M2F transgender identified male whose more girl than man is assumed very unlikely to satisfy such a need.

Sigh...

[Tina_gm]

That plus how the average GG woman still privately values and needs the sense of security provided by a male who, underneath his tempered, toned-down, held-in-check forceful self, there is a "real man". They need to know he has the strength, power and willingness to throw down and unleash hell to protect her (and the kids) and jealously defend her from harm if needs be must. Generally speaking, a M2F transgender identified male whose more girl than man is assumed very unlikely to satisfy such a need.

Fight or flight? For many GG's, the reaction would be flight, unless that option was unavailable. For most men, their 1st reaction would be to fight. Perhaps most GG's want a man who can offer the fight option as it (if and when successful) eliminates the problem and the need to flight. So, when their "man" is portraying anything feminine, the underling thought is , the man is not able to provide the security and now the only option is flight, which he along with her will do. flight doesn't eliminate the problem entirely as fight does. It doesn't truly end it. Flight offers survival until the fight option that the "man" provides becomes available. When the fight option is perceived to be never available, or at least less available, the problem then continues on, perceived to be never ending, or often not readily available.

[lovetobedani]

I think that M2F crossdressing is concidered weird or unacceptable because most of thnoes who don't do it cannot understand it. Most of us don't understand why we do it either and just need to accept that we are who we are. I've often asked myself why. I have no clue but it feels liberating and natural to me. There are many threads here that ask the same question. Why and how.

I have an even better question.........Why do alot of GG's accept gay men as freinds but call us strange??