Fitting In and Transition (TS Responses only)

[LeaP]

The topic of being invested into fitting in came up in a recent thread in the following form:


A lot of the struggle is either trying to get over yourself in the sense that lots of us decided to fit in no matter what as guys, and we have literally no experience not fitting in...we are invested deeply in conforming to expectations...

That was subsequently clarified in a couple of responses as not so much fitting in as one of the guys, but fitting into society, your social environment. Put another way, its not specifically trying to be a "man"... but trying to fit in as a person that is living a man's life.

OK, straightforward enough. We make it work, always aware of our differences, but functional in most situations where there are gender expectations.

But the comment was also made that this is:
pretty much the opposite of transition..

And that's where my head starts spinning. There are ways in which I try to fit in, others in which I do not. But surely this is also applicable to transition (and beyond)? Or that it is individual? That despite rhetoric (and I don't mean this judgmentally) like "woman with a transsexual history" that one never completely leaves being male-socialized and trans behind and therefore not the conformity quandary either.

I can accept that false conformity - posing as something you are not - goes away, but not the hard work of dealing with gender expectations in the social environment. So isn't it still a matter of dealing with gender expectations, but (hopefully) in a more cis-normal way?

But here's the rub: if, prior to transition, one has no experience fitting in as oneself, isn't the expectations point just as problematic post-transition? I understand that it may be psychologically easier to integrate in some ways, but we don't have the natural ability to do so in the female world that come from being socialized that way.

When it comes to gender expectations, how much substantive difference is there between a woman pretending to be a man versus a woman who doesn't know how living as a woman? That's a rhetorical question.

The real question is what are the limits to and specific challenges in fitting in, post-transition? Can you provide examples of circumstances that are easier versus harder? So many seem to have issues that linger for years and years. Surely that is at least partly related.

[Angela Campbell]

It should be no surprise to you that living as many of have for so long is damaging to us psychologically. Is it possible to overcome all of the fears, idiosyncrasies, and phobias we developed over years and years? Perhaps if transition comes at a young enough age. After 50 years....I kind of doubt it.

[stefan37]

That is the quandary I have often struggled with. I am transitioning from a male viewpoint. Many of my friends are transitioning and they have their viewpoint of what a female should be. We have have not had the opportunity to grow up socialized as a female. So in that vein of thought. I have been living my life as me. Watching and interacting as much as possible with cis-women. I have joined a couple of social groups to interact as me. I guess I differ in that I had no real problems living and thriving as a male. I survived and was very successful as a male. Transitioning and pretending to be something I am not would be no different than not transitioning and pretending to be something I am not.

You can theory craft, read and surmise about different scenarios. But like anything in life you need to do it. Whether that is flying a plane, building and racing a car, learning a trade etc. Knowledge is one thing, doing it is another.

Talking on the phone is a struggle for me. Talking in person and being me is much easier. I am just living my life as me and the quality of my life has improved greatly. The recent success of my business is directly attributable to my transitioning.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I will tell you Lea what I was trying to communicate..
To switch gender roles is the "opposite" of conforming to society's expectations.. so all the effort into conforming fails....then we suffer great distress... then we have to do the ultimate in non conformity and change our lives through gender..
I can see how it may be ironic that once you get to the other side you are back to conforming ( and the mind screw of now trying to conform to expectations that you really are what you are!!! but hey you are probably pretty darn good at observing people and copying them.. LOL)....

However, I feel the thing you will have to experience for yourself is the letting go of your expectations and your own internal requirements for a successful transition... this is a big part of what transition is...

I've been in some very awkward conversations and moments... I just got through them... and I can tell you in my case I cannot recall overthinking how I was acting...... sometimes I've lied to moms commiserating about babies that assumed my kids were birthed by me... I've been on dates with guys and I was so self conscious at first but it just melts away..I've had to hear nurses regale me with "heavy flow" stories while they asked if my periods were in sync with my daughters....i've been on 5 hours plane rides with everybody staring at my grotesquely swollen 30hour electrolysis face, and I've had to out myself dozens of times for paperwork and other reasons.. ..it just is what it is...

What I believe to be the most constructive attitude is to look at it that you will experience for the first time things that feel totally and completely "real" to you in a brand new way... each decision, each awkward moment, each time you fit in better or worse will be for the first time ever, YOUR moments... and you will live them the same way cisgender people live them....the details of the moments don't matter, except to you of course... you have had glimpses of this feeling when you disclosed yourself to others , you have them when you are planning your transition or even communicating here where you are fully and totally accepted as Lea....

Trust me, this will not be a big deal to you unless you make it one..

[Badtranny]

When it comes to gender expectations, how much substantive difference is there between a woman pretending to be a man versus a woman who doesn't know how living as a woman? .

It's HUGE. I never "pretended" to be a man. I didn't know anything different but I never felt like I fit in, and I was always terrified that I would be caught doing something less than manly. Basically the old saw about dudes being douches because they're insecure in their masculinity totally applied to me. On the other hand I have NEVER had any issue living as a woman. It's been as natural as falling up an escalator for me. I was accepted into the girls club long before I ever passed very well. I'm not sure I can understand why somebody who is so manly that they have to constantly remind themselves how to walk , sit, and talk, could ever be happy with transition. I mean if being a man comes so naturally, why transition at all?



..i've been on 5 hours plane rides with everybody staring at my grotesquely swollen 30hour electrolysis face,.

Reminds me of my first trip back from Mexico after round 1 of FFS . I looked like someone just beat the crap out of me and I was definitely a spectacle in the airport.

[KellyJameson]

Being physically separated from your gender leaves a person relentlessly self conscious because you live outside of yourself as observer and inevitably as critic because of the foreigness mixed with the familiar that the body experience causes (dissonance)

You "wear" the skin you live in "unnaturally" and feel the dissonance and the dissonance makes you self conscious starting very early in life, plus others sense the "divide" between your skin and soul (energy) and share in your dissonance making them uneasy without knowing why.

The energy is sexual in nature but yet it is not because it was there before sex and sex rests on top of it.

In time after transition the dissonance and self consciousness diminishes unless you continue being "consciously self conscious" which is an intellectual exercise instead of the uncontrolled non-intellectual sub-conscious experience that was there originally.

You have exchanged one role (as adaptation) that was created by the split between soul and skin that impacted social interactions but was extremely personal in the nature of its suffering for a conscious "fear based desire" to fit in which comes out of "wants"

The fear and the wants must be split off from each other so that fear does not "drive" wants

This is the time to move toward autonomy (self actualization) that was not possible before in the face of ongoing dissonance and is addressed rationally but also spiritually (nothing to do with religion)

In my opinion transitioning cannot be about belonging, being accepted, being seen, fitting in, ect.. for "confirmation"

I think it is important to not see your physical gender only when others do because this allows them to define you so you are still kept outside of your body but not now from your body but from others "seeing it" as how they define it.

There must be a point reached where "enough is enough" independent of all others.

It is an extremely personal voyage where others (people) are largely irrelevant.

As and once you transition that is when you begin having a relationship with yourself for the first time (without the dissonance and all that it has created)

Transitioning is the culmination of having been on a life long quest but it is important to know exactly what you are searching for so you recognize it when you obtain it and it must not be defined by others.

The fitting in with others comes naturally from "fitting in" with yourself so only becomes a problem to the degree you "reject" yourself "ONCE AND AFTER THE DISSONANCE IS GONE"

It is vital to have complete conviction of what you are so there is no need for confirmation, just as other women live.

[Rachel Smith]

The previous posters did such a good job explaining this I really can add nothing other than to say now I am me and NOT pretending to be something I am not.

[I Am Paula]

When people tell me, in a caring and supportive way, that I have fit in so well as a woman, I thank them, and tell them I still have plenty of neuroses, but at least none of them are life threatening anymore.

[LeaP]

To be honest, I expected both the responses that I am overthinking and overanalyzing, as well as those dismissing (more or less) the question on the basis of now being able to do what is natural.

I'm not trying to project ahead so much as I'm wondering aloud about practicalities because – to repeat the point – so many people struggle with post-transition coping for so long. Coping is not an automatic behavior or a natural function of who you are. It is learned behavior. It is informed by your nature, to be sure, but that is not the same thing. Humans are capable of swimming. But drop somebody in the deep and and their natural ability to learn how to swim is not going to help much.

But an even better example is language. Unlike something relatively trivial like swimming, language is innate. Despite that, if one is developmentally delayed in ways important to language, one never acquires a completely natural speaking and comprehension ability. Gender is as integral as language. Probably more so, in fact. Natal women often speak about the difficulties of expectations and coping. They have practice from birth. We do not. It seems to me that there must be limitations to how far are integration can go as a result, the question being in what sorts of circumstances and why. I had in mind (though I didn't say so) mental, psychological, and emotional state – not physical aspects of coping.

So maybe a better way to ask is whether you perceive aspects of developmental delay and, if so, how does it manifest?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

As a serial overanalyzer i hear you Lea

Today I was at guitar center... I was selling a used guitar and buying some equipment for our studio... I am well versed in music tech... i love trying the synths...the stomp boxes...talking music tech...bragging about my gear....not exactly girly..

It was lots of fun and I ended talking to a girl that works there...i talked about my daughter who is learning guitar, and about my geeky nature... turns out she has the same guitar as me...she likes a lot of the same geeky stuff...

then for some reason (all of sudden) i had a wave of self consciousness hit me...i started thinking of all this ts stuff... it was uncomfortable for a couple minutes...i thought about my voice, about "what if she knows"...and "im so fricking tall"...i even blurted out some comment about my height
(btw...when i commented on my height in a self deprecating way, she responded "goddam i wish i was your height"... )

... then it all just drifted away...it was a moment... not sure why it happened...was she getting a little close to "knowing" me? is there some underlying shame or fear i have that i don't talk about ?

who knows...who cares... it was my moment...i was there...i was living...i felt like i was living and i was where i wanted to be at the time doing what i wanted to do.... As a TS person that's gold..

I say all this illustrate my point

What you are talking about IS important...i would not dismiss it...your quality of life will be impacted by how you develop your own gender language...its smart to think about realistic goals and real life risks to your quality of life..

But the actual nature of living your true life is something that can ONLY be experienced..

and when you experience it many of the things you are worried about now will not matter nearly as much..if you do it right...this analyzing and thinking will position you well for the glitches and moments like the one above...

[arbon]

I lived most of my life as a man, my experience as a woman has not been for very long and is a lot different then most other women's, its hard to switch it all around as if you had always been female. Like when I went to a women's retreat last september it started off fine but after a couple days I was a bit frazzled mentally because I got stuck picking out all the differences between me and everyone else there, was at times finding myself trying to act more this or that way to better fit in as a woman and by the end of the weekend was questioning if I really belonged there at all. Most of the time I probably fit in a lot better then I thought I did though - I mean I am pretty sure for someone looking from the outside at my being there I looked like I fit in just fine, just inside of myself I had not gotten all the way there yet.

It has gotten better where I don't feel or struggle with that as much but to some extent I still do. I still get to focused on myself and how people are perceiving me. I was obsessed with some public pictures and news video of me that came out yesterday after being arrested, thinking I looked "male" - yet I was treated like every other woman through the ordeal, so why the mental hang up with myself? Why not relax completely and just be myself because its all good when I am just doing that

[Angela Campbell]

Today I was at guitar center...

..

That is all it takes for me to fit in......

[DeeDee1974]

I never was a manly man. I was a musician and thus made an androgynous look part of my gimmick when I played in bands. I was in a very popular cover band that mocked 80s hair metal bands. It paid the bills and allowed me to be me in a sense without having to come out.

I gave up music, but had a hard time giving up my look. My ex wife became persistent that I change and get a real job. That's when I came out.

I'm much happier with a corporate job where I'm just the woman who's a senior human resources manager.

[Donna Joanne]

I know that personally I want the "inside" and "outside" to match. That sounds so simple,but is really isn't. Why? Because we want to be accepted by the world as what we are in their definition, not ours. And therein lies the problem with "fitting in".

I'm still not sure where I'll fit in when my inside and outside match, but I do know it's going to be wonderful. Because then the inner conflict and unreasonable expectations will be no more. And then Donna will be Donna....whoever Donna may be. Just like you can't tell what the butterfly will look like by the caterpillar, neither can we always know how we will transform when we do transition.

But I do know I'll be much happier as a middle aged woman than a middle aged man. Just my thoughts.

[Kathryn Martin]

But an even better example is language. Unlike something relatively trivial like swimming, language is innate. Despite that, if one is developmentally delayed in ways important to language, one never acquires a completely natural speaking and comprehension ability. Gender is as integral as language. Probably more so, in fact. Natal women often speak about the difficulties of expectations and coping. They have practice from birth. We do not. It seems to me that there must be limitations to how far are integration can go as a result, the question being in what sorts of circumstances and why. I had in mind (though I didn't say so) mental, psychological, and emotional state – not physical aspects of coping.

This comment is laden with assumptions. I have talked about survival strategies that are both physically, emotionally and spiritually evolved from facts present in the biological division of the sexes. This evolution for the individual is informed through nurture.

There is no limit to integration. Any limits are created by the inability to see the obvious facts that exists for transsexuals. Integration does not come from the outside, but rather from recapture and renewal of our emotional and spiritual history. Integration is not something bestowed on us but rather something we have to work for. If you don't, you will not cope post transition as you can see everywhere in this community. It is a no-mans-land in which the cloying inabilities of post transition transsexuals and gender variant will retard every step you take to traverse and make it out the other side. And those that don't make it often become the revered TG advocates we hear so much about these days.

[Badtranny]

And those that don't make it often become the revered TG advocates we hear so much about these days.

I disagree with you so often that I had to tell you that this is 100% on point.

So many of our 'community voices' are just frustrated bitches with a chip on their shoulder. They all make plenty of hay out of hating on drag queens and whatnot, but they're cattier and more contrary than any queen has ever been. They expend so much energy bitching about pioneers like RuPaul and Calpernia that I'm surprised they have enough left to complain about Jared Leto.

[LeaP]

... This evolution for the individual is informed through nurture.

There is no limit to integration. Any limits are created by the inability to see the obvious facts that exists for transsexuals. Integration does not come from the outside, but rather from recapture and renewal of our emotional and spiritual history.

... And those that don't make it often become the revered TG advocates we hear so much about these days.

Our evolution is informed by both nature and nurture. Were nature not a critical part of the problem, transsexuality would not exist at such predictable rates across cultures. (And that is precisely the position taken by some anti-trans activists who focus on the nurture side only.)

I understand your carefully crafted point about "recapture and renewal." Along similar lines to my comment above, were there nothing to recapture and renew, there would be no transsexual psychological and emotional history. And again, that this goes back to the earliest childhood years is ample evidence of nature for me.

So I accept – or assume, to your point – the strong presence of both.

I don't think you can set aside lifelong impacts from nurture, when you stress nurture, of all things, by putting your eggs into the single basket of recapture. To do so is to simply stress it on one hand and dismiss its importance on the other!

I agree with your philosophical point (for that is what it is) that there is no limit to integration. But as a practical matter, there have to be limits to this. One sees other cuts at the problem. One example is granting that integration will be lifelong… but then (falsely, IMO) comparing that to any woman's experience in integration and conforming.

Putting aside the ad hominems (I think I can integrate as well as anyone else), I find it hard to see some of these responses as anything but political positions. To accept there might be differences between GGs and trans women may be threatening, for example, to those who are concerned about the "womym born womym" paradigm, though I would disagree. The political and philosophical positioning here is evident in the response about TG activists. I agree with the comment, by the way, but because there is a difference between successful transition and integration versus something one hundred percent identical to a natal woman's life experience.

I can stress nurture myself in other ways. Although I have lost my anger and reactivity, I retain a type of regression that I know I learned. I worked hard at it for years by trial and error. It was driven by T and borne of survival. And though I'm already working on modifying my approach to people, I expect arriving at a more natural approach to be a lifelong effort. I know what was there originally and I know what has been added and became habituated.

Another example is the calculated dismissal of emotion. I martyred myself emotionally. Killed it dead for decades. I incurred some serious damage as a result. The fact that at my core (and that I once actually was outwardly) a happy well-adjusted individual, isn't going to heal my crippled emotionality overnight because I take hormones and transition. Again, I expect to be dealing with this for the rest of my life at some level. That applies to both my inner life as well as to the relationships that I am responsible for damaging.

GD exacerbated my issues with bipolar depression. One outcome is a learned pattern of responses that are inappropriate, socially damaging, and alienating. Again, not going to unwind overnight.

These are a few things that are unique to me along the lines of what I was asking. They don't even touch the topic of developmental delay and it's impact, another wide field for exploration.

So do I understand that this has to be dealt with through experience, that self-consciousness and dissonance diminish post-transition? Of course I do. I might take some of the responses as a bit condescending, but I think you are all offering advice in response to different concerns (i.e., for me personally) than I am raising.

Kathryn, you have often said that the hard work of transition is never discussed. I would think the questions I'm raising would pertain to that concern.

[Kathryn Martin]

My point really was that survival strategies have evolved from biological facts. In addition this evolution of survival strategies is informed by nurture, that is social interpretations of the biological facts. I don't think nature informs in this sense but it simply is. In transsexuals the biological facts of being are polarized by incongruence of brain and body.

I think you misunderstand my comment about experiences compared of women born and transsexual women. This a very complex area both physically, emotionally and spiritually. fathoming this complexity is integral to the actual transition which as I have said before begins after transition is complete, and in my view is only possible post op. I see this as a condition precedent. In this process there is a lot of historical work that we have to go through. What many do not understand is that a history interpreted through a trans history will give you nothing. It is just another form of continuing self victimization very similar to the years of being the instruments of our own subjugation to conformity. If you cannot find a way to transcend this then you will forever be stuck in the no mans land.

Recapturing and renewal of our actual history is incredibly hard work. It is the central point of transition as I see it. It is neither easy, painless or done in a day. Kaitelyn made an interesting point when she said: "...sometimes I've lied to moms commiserating about babies that assumed my kids were birthed by me...". I have been in these types of conversations and I have told the truth, namely, that I was unable to bear children but that these are my children and left it at that. It is not a lie to let people think what they may. My actual history has been that I was unable to bear children and my grief over this was as real and as palpable as any other woman's grief during my childbearing years. I have had conversations with other moms who experienced the same thing and adopted or had surrogates and what we shared was indistinguishable, emotionally and spiritually.

Once you begin the real work of transition as I see it, you shine a very bright light into some very dark corners of yourself. And in this process you recapture and renew your own history but not making new history but by coming to terms and by writing the facts of your own, naked, without regard to convention, conformity or accommodation and poking everywhere it hurts. For me the result has been many tears and an increasing reality of integration.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You brought up my comments about a birth... I blurted that out... it was a moment......at another moment I was with my exwife and daughter and we were partaking in a medical study....the exit interview was in the city...I dropped them off at the building and parked... when I walked in they acted confused... my ex and daughter were at the end of the hall and interviewer asked if I was her mom in a very confused way...I said no i'm her dad.
Another time a nurse asked me and my daughter if we had synced our periods (??yikes!!), and I simply said "no"... this may make no sense to you... I have never ever sat down and tried to map out things like the limits of my integration or recapture or renewal..and it doesn't bother me all...

My own hard work was blocking and tackling as they say and it was prior to transition... it was dealing with my own baggage and feelings...my own doubts... the practical aspects of family, divorce, job... the physical aspects of ffs and srs...
Get this thing off to a good start I thought. If i'm going to do this, I better do it well.

Once that was done, my transition was effortless.. I laughed, I cried...but it was my laugh and my cry... that's how I view success ...if on the inside you are integrated, you are integrated..

It means nothing to me that I hid my past on some occasions, that I didn't on others, and that I ignored it on others...who cares.
I live in the same house, my kids go to the same school..my kids call me dad...its all good...Some people only know Kaitlyn...others knew me for much longer and my past is part of their lives. Oddly enough, even though I've transitioned in place and met 100's of people in my town, not once has anyone that only met Kaitlyn "found out" and came to me...It's actually very surprising. But again, it doesn't matter to me anymore. Transition taught me that.

My laser focus is on living my life...my best quality of life..
I am totally integrated because on the inside I know for a fact that I am...no one can say different(and have meaning) that's all that matters...

I don't think of my history as a transsexual history. I think of it simply as my history
+++

Lea the answer to your question is so intensely felt and so personal that my or Kathyrn's comments are only going to be marginally helpful to you...all you can really gather is whether you want to transition "Kaitlyn style, Kathryn style, Melissa style..or any other of the terrific posters here that have transitioned"

I think you are doing the hard work
The debate can be exhausting, and what does the "answer" to the question get for you..

...I think you know how you feel in your gut (isn't that where transition is? on the inside??), and I think you should consider those feelings in the context of how what you know can impact your quality of life and your own transition.
If you find this question haunting you, i'd boil it down further to specific details..

clearly I wing it a lot more than others so perhaps what i'm saying doesn't resonate with you!!

[Jorja]

I was very much like Kaitlyn in that I winged it. I took things as they came. Yes, there were moments of embarrassment over minor things at first. But.... there was more joy as time passed and the weird world we find ourselves in seemed to even out and became normal everyday life. I did not worry about being integrated. I was just me and allowed life to happen around me. I took what I liked or needed and gave what I felt I needed too.

You have a very analytical mind, Lea and need to work out every little detail. I think you get so wrapped up in the mechanics of the process it is acting like a brake on you. It gives you too much time to think out all of the probabilities, the what if's and why not's. Most of the time that is a really good thing. Transition is something that needs to happen without all of that. I am not saying not to do some planning. I am saying don't write it in stone signed in blood. One thing I think most of the girls that have transitioned will attest to, your plans will change and whatever you think or formulate in your mind, really doesn't matter. Life is going to go on and things are going to happen that are out of your control. You need to learn to live with that and be flexible enough to change with it.

[LeaP]

Kathryn, you make an incredibly important point on the risk of staying mired in a trans-based interpretation of one's history, as well as a how it leads to continued self-victimization. As I interpret what you are saying, your concept of recapture is much more about discovering the actual experience from a woman's point of view versus the after-the-fact victimization view based on things such as damage (which I mentioned, of course).

If so, I can see why you responded as you have. I am not asking nor am I looking at this as a victim, however. Put in your terms, it is more a matter of the facts. The fact is that you were not socialized as a young girl, you did not experience adolescence as a young woman, and you have not experienced most of your adult life as a woman.

Your very personal story about not being able to bear children (and thank you for sharing this) is nonetheless less relevant to my basic question than other types of experiences, however. Why? Because it is something shared by a lot of women! I think I understand how recapturing such an experience at this point in your life is very different than how you (mis)experienced it at the time, or later on through a trans lens.

I am asking about the effects of being socialized, then living as a man. Here's the distinction: I understand you were a woman living a male's life. I also understand that you can recapture it properly as such. I do not, however, think that it is possible to substitute that, valuable though it is, with the experience of actual childhood, adolescence, and adult socialization as a woman. The lived experiences of a young girl, say during adolescence, are not the same thing as the after the fact, recaptured experience of a trans woman's adolescence ... not because she is trans per se, but because the experience, the full experience, at that time of life is a critical part of one's psychological and emotional development. To maintain otherwise is to dismiss the importance of childhood and adolescence (leaving aside adulthood for the moment).

One doesn't have to be trapped in victimhood to deal with the results - which can be positive as well as negative, I suppose. The facts are simply the facts, just as they are physically. You make the best of what you have and you move on.

In a way, you are validating the importance of lived experience AS a woman. You say that even past experiences can't truly be recaptured in their proper light while pre-op. Nonetheless, you cannot now live a true childhood or adolescence (not to suggest that you said that). Still, I think your response in this context gives substance to past comments about the postop experience.

Kaitlyn, you also responded with the importance of (current) lived experience. I admire the way you can deal with some kinds of experiences that you have not had an never will have – one example was the syncing of periods - and I'm also aware of a few lingering effects of your life to-date (about which you have been quite open) that might fall into the "victimization" category, particularly those which relate to shame.

Put those aside, though. Some things that were not and cannot be experienced can easily be dealt with. All of us have comparable holes in our experience. We deal with them in various ways, such as by analogy. But are there others that are more substantive, that you encounter either by yourself or in the company of other women, which trigger "otherness," for lack of a better word?

[stefan37]

I like many late transitioners have been raised and socialized as male. We have all missed out on growing up female and being socialized as female. Many have or are transitioning from that male point of view or from our trans friends viewpoint. I am in the process of joining clubs to meet and socialize with cis gender females. I have said before I feel as if I am cramming for a test. Unlearning 57 years of male socialization and growing into a woman in a few short ones. A daunting challenge for sure. Discussing theses topics are informative, but in no way can they replace the actual experience of transitioning in real life. Our personalities and how we handle stress and change varies all over the map. You have a very analytical mind. If we both were standing on a cliff read to jump into the water , you would most like calculate the distance jumped, check the wind direction and speed, determine if the footing is slippery before taking the plunge. I on the other hand would most likely throw a rock to judge the depth and jump. My point we have different personalities and the way we approach life and the obstacle it throws in front of us differs greatly. Our lived life experiences are vastly different . what works for me might not work for you. What works for you probably wont work for me.

Until you start to live your life as you , these questions and theories will continue to haunt and baffle you. Driving a dirt car in a video game and reading how to drive is vastly different than going out on the track and actually racing. You can read about how to handle challenges and become intimately familiar with the method to handle it, but until you experience live will you truly learn how to handle it.

[Angela Campbell]

I cannot comment about after SRS, but I pretty much planned and planned my transition to the point I am at now.....and now there is no real plans over saving money and waiting. Just living. I don't know how I can plan that I just do it.

[LeaP]

Again, I appreciate the concerns, but the personal comments are really missing the mark.

Yes, I am analytical to the max. I like to understand things, weigh and assess them, know the limits of research and knowledge in a given domain, and understand how competing conceptual frameworks differ and overlap. I like to understand how rhetoric and politics play in relationship to all of this. It is deeply learned behavior for me. It started when I begin to isolate myself in my early teenage years. It has become something I enjoy.

That should not be confused with how I conduct my life. In fact, I plan almost nothing in my personal life. And I mean this to a far greater extent than anyone reading might assume. It drives my wife crazy. She can't get me to plan vacations or weekend trips. Make a grocery list. Commit to doing anything socially in advance. Get anything scheduled around the house. I don't particularly care if the bills are paid, where my retirement accounts are, or if my clothing is falling apart. Steph, I would be in the water before you even threw the rock.

Transition is going to be a spectacular exception. That I am planning. I had two conditions to meet to take next steps. I have met one of them. And I am taking steps toward meeting the second. I will plan like a military campaign. I've already begun writing notification letters. I have detailed task lists. I have contact lists. Plans to address certain issues and a certain sequence in a certain way at work. I will be preparing training materials. I will be preparing policy and procedure manual updates. Etc. etc. etc.

I'm not unduly concerned about how I might integrate, however. In fact, my starting assumption is to accept at face value that transition is harder in many ways than anyone ever expects. If anything, that plays into my tendency to not bother with planning.

This thread is really about the nature of transsexuality. It is couched in the language of transition, the problem being that much writing on transsexuality is not done from the point of view of transsexuals, as you all know. So here's an opportunity to flesh out one aspect.

The syndrome I see play out again and again is that whenever anyone hits any difficulties in their transition, there is a gloss. Someone reaches for the easy answer. Blame is assigned. Sometimes it's attributed to lack of planning (funny, considering some of these responses). Or the individual wasn't really trans. Or the intensity of their transsexuality wasn't enough to carry them through. There are a million of these. On top of this are the constant comments about how incredibly difficult transition is. (Again, you wouldn't think so based on some of these responses.) But there is so little articulation of the precise nature of the difficulties. There is so little understanding of the psychological and emotional preparation necessary. The themes I'm questioning are just a small subset.

Or worse, maybe this can only be an academic topic. That the nature of the path is that it is always so individual that it can barely be informed by a body of domain knowledge.

[stefan37]

I believe your are correct that this can only be an academic exercise. We all have different life experiences, and transition in many different ways at different paces. I am close with 4 actively transitioning individuals, 1 post op, another going for surgery Tues, and 2 preop at different stages. We all experience our GD in varying levels of intensity. We also approach dealing with people in our lives differently. I have my good days and bad days, the good outnumber the bad. i have had 1 negative experience at work after going full time in Sept. You are also correct we all deal with and confront difficulties in many ways. Yes transition is difficult, Maybe the most difficult thing in your life. In my case running my business is the most difficult challenge I face daily. Transition is a piece of cake compared to running the business. My standard response to those that inquire why is " I didn't find life challenging enough, so I thought I would change gender to liven things up. I know a flippant answer, but I am transitioning with humor.

I am also learning how to integrate with society as a female. My thought of my gender is innate. How I relate with the world as a female is a learned exercise for me. At 57 T as taken its toll. I have many fires to put out. I am tackling those I think are priority putting what funds I have where I think they would be most useful. I would love to get facial surgery, and I am saving for it. I have no doubt it would improve the quality of life for me. I had this burning obsession to get facial when I went fulltime. as I have been going about my life on a daily basis, that burning desire for facial has calmed down. I am no longer obsessed and can function without it being a distraction. But at this point I feel it more important to live and integrate as me as difficult as that is. I would never have thought this was possible until I went full time and started interacting with the world as me. I am hair challenged and would definitely benefit from some type of hair system. In my line of work, a wig is out of the question for many reasons. My natural hair will have to suffice. I am doomed anyway as both my mother and younger sister have hairlines very similar to mine.

We all experience integration in ways that we feel are important to us. It will happen at some point given enough work is put in. It took me 55 years to acknowledge and acccept my truth. I can't expect to unlearn all I have learned to survive overnight. Like anything else in life "You hafta wanna". When things get difficult , self pity, woe is me will not cut it. You have to power through it and continue working towards your goal. When you get knocked down, you get right back up and move forward. It is not easy but needed to achieve success. We all have to take responsibility for what we do and own it. I would say that is a big factor in my acceptance with my family, friends and clients. I am what I am and I own what I am doing. There can be no other way!

[Angela Campbell]

Yes I have to agree the experience, the goals, the results, the obstacles, the direction of the path, and the difficulty, all vary so much from one person to another that it is difficult to even consider it being the same thing.

Difficult....yes....but not in the way I was expecting, in fact nothing has been as I expected. What are the challenges? There are so many variances there is no way for you to know until you do it. Yes Plan. Plan the hell out of it, but don't let it cripple you. It isn't going to go as you think anyway. At some point you just have to do it.

You can plan a road trip, but you cannot anticipate the other drivers.

[PretzelGirl]

Lea, you are doing this after my own heart. I am a dedicated planner for things I am involved in. I have actually toned it down some for my transition, even though I am at the front end, which is the opposite of you. I think in order to be able to let go when things change, I need to have a looser grip. Too tight a grip, and nothing shifts without pain. I believe that for me, I probably wouldn't even be moving forward yet if I kept my usual level up.

[Kathryn Martin]

But there is so little articulation of the precise nature of the difficulties. There is so little understanding of the psychological and emotional preparation necessary. The themes I'm questioning are just a small subset.

Or worse, maybe this can only be an academic topic. That the nature of the path is that it is always so individual that it can barely be informed by a body of domain knowledge.

Let me count the ways...... not really. Despite all of the protestations to the contrary successful transitions are defined by common themes. That we are all individuals is not disputed but this meme that transitions are as individual as the number of people attempting it is such utter nonsense that I spend often time in facepalm mode just reading about it.

It comes from the idea that outcomes are individual. But transition is not an outcome but a path which must end to arrive at a successful conclusion.

In my view that basic foundations of transition are all the same. You consult with a therapist to deal with whatever you have to deal with, you take hormones, you have surgery and you socially and professionally transition on a date certain. There is absolutely nothing individual about that particular process.

The obstacles to transition, and what makes transition hard can be generally grouped into four themes:

1. Fear of the unknown and especially the odds against integration across social, professional and simple human relationships such as family relationships;

2. The physical limitations that our male sexed bodies present;

3. The behavioral limitations our socialization as children and adults present;

4. The emotional and spiritual consequences of opening a door and letting what is behind it suffuse your life.

Again there is nothing individual about that because what you actually see people going through will almost always fall into one of those themes. Transition is an act by an individual against everything that they were raised with believing about themselves, even their bodies have lied to them. Why should they be believed? And that in a nutshell is the basis of all the “difficulties” of transition.

[Angela Campbell]

In my view that basic foundations of transition are all the same. You consult with a therapist to deal with whatever you have to deal with, you take hormones, you have surgery and you socially and professionally transition on a date certain. There is absolutely nothing individual about that particular process.



Wow. Consult with a therapist....I cannot imagine something that is more of an individualistic thing. This has the widest of variations and outcomes. The process, and outcomes along with what it can accomplish is a very personal and widely varying thing. Some actually skip this step. I didn't but many do.

You take hormones. Yes most do. Not all. Then again very individualistic. The effects are so widely different in both physical and mental outcomes. The method is so widely different as well. Length of time, dosage, and effectiveness are widely different.

You have surgery. Well again some do some do not. Some have more some have less. Some are more successful some less so.

You transition socially and professionally on a certain date. Well not exactly. Some do and some ease into it. Some do well with this some do not. Very much an individual thing on how when and outcome. This will depend on your own particular life situation to a great degree. When, how and who....very much individual.

I think every one of these is all about individual. Some do these in this order and some mix it up and do so in a different order. Everything about this is individualistic in nature. What you do, how you go about it, how long it takes, and outcomes....

The four obstacles are very individual as well. Some will experience them in a more or less version than others. You also should add in financial as this is one of the biggest obstacles. The individual part is how big an issue each one is...from huge to almost non existent, to what you do and how you handle them. Again varies from individual to individual.

[stefan37]

Kathryn I get your point , but I disagree with many of your tenets. I know quite a few woman that are socialized, well adjusted and function just fine without having surgery. I know personally a woman that has transitioned not on a certain date, but has been an ongoing process that is still evolving (me). Glad you had a health system that allowed you to fast track to final surgery at minimal financial cost. I know plenty that would like to move faster or have more but are stymied by the staggering financial cost.

Yes there are certain parameters most of us adhere or follow to reach our destination wherever that may be. But we all don't follow them in the same order or even at all. You have a view of what a woman is and exactly how they should act. Many of your experiences do not resonate with me and I cannot relate.

I am following my path in my way. Sorry if that does not conform to your viewpoint but I am my own person that can make my own decisions. Wherever I reach the point I am comfortable and my quality of life is improved that I no longer obsess, I will be content. Your experience when you needed to transition varies from when I needed to. Your life experiences as a male and your own experiences with females have molded you into the person you are today. Just as my experiences will mold me.
It is very individualistic. Otherwise we would all get therapy, hormones, surgeries and integrate on a rigid timeline. but in real life nothing ever goes as planned.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I think those 4 things you laid out Kathryn are a good summary.

They are things we share and they are very broad categories.. but they should be thought of very narrowly as an answer to the question of what is hard because the details inside of them (and that's lea's question) are different...

and how we approach dealing with the physicality of it, the devastating emotions, and living with the limits of it, finances, family...... they couldn't be more different.

and the outcomes are different as well... the most obvious being how many transsexuals end up never getting srs.... this concept fits very well with "dealing with the physical limitations"...narrowly its the same...we all deal with them...but obviously how we deal with it is different.

It should not be a debate.. I had my own answers for all those problems.. they were really so different than yours...what i focused on, what was important to me, how i timed out the various steps...all very different
...and i was "molded" by my choices (not a choice to transition...it wasn't really a choice and it was the same concept as yours...i transitioned to survive and live my best quality of life).

we are different transitioners, and we are different women.

to stay on point i'll use your framework and for lea give you these short answers..

1.) THis was brutal... I felt shame and doubt. I was faced with disbelief, doubt, fear for my safety, and others loss. My answer to this was to be the best person i could be. Broadly speaking i set my internal feelings on deflect mode. I was going to transition..no negotiation... i decided this right from the start...my parents, siblings, exwife, kids.... they would have to deal with this because i had done everything possible to avoid it... as i disclosed to them one by one, i felt a new thing...exhilaration..
and i learned over time to guard against that...it didn't play well my ex... and i wanted to gently bring everyone along... there were days were i had to pull off the road because i burst out in torrents of tears...my specific response was self talk.."i'm a good person... i'm a good person..." "i'm going to be ok"..."i have to do this...i'm sorry ".....

2.) First i lost weight...i was up to 235 lbs...and i got down into the 160's over about 18 months..

Trachea Shave, then ffs, then srs. I was deadly afraid of surgery... anesthesia and claustrophobia.... i felt guilty that i was taking risks that could kill me and i have kids...once again i went around in circles... i cancelled my ffs twice... i ended up at a psychiatrists office because my claustrophobia got out of control... i couldn't put a blanket on me in bed...i couldn't wear shoes except for sneakers without taking Ativan.. i had panic attacks walking down the street with business associates because i the thought of being "trapped" with them for the 4 block walk got in my head... that's pretty specific no??!! LOL

I also spent a lot of time on my voice... this was something where i tried many therapists but nothing seemed to work...but then a strange thing happened and my voice just became my voice....it ended up being something that came by osmosis...the therapy stuff helped but it didn't really come to the fore until i got out there...that was very helpful to me

3.) behavioural limits...this part of it was effortless... i never thought about this... i was much more focused on 1 and 2... #2 worked out very well for me... i really pass with no effort...i almost can't not pass ...I still blurt out football comments at the dunkin donuts and talk to random guys way too much... i learned to smile at women and give up a lot of my aggressiveness but i know i still interrupt too much (very male of me imho)... I like the same food, the same movies, the same sports ...my kids call me dad..

I actually think i'm missing out a bit, but it doesn't bother me at all... I got so much support (and i left the work force) from my family and friends (i think i handled #1 well..and i was lucky) that i really havent' branched out that much...perhaps over time as my youngest leaves the nest i will have a new experience and have time to get out there and join some group in my community...maybe volunteer... i am sure those experiences will be very rewarding for me...

also dating...the dating scene stinks and I've just not met anyone...I've had casual dates, casual sex...it all felt natural and effortless.. the only guy that knew about my past stopped seeing me but he was nice about it.

4.) To me this was about allowing myself to be ok because i deserve to be ok... actions really informed this part for me... i was transitioning step by step, and i was feeling better and better...the fears got less and less (except for the moments of terrifying awe of the whole thing hehe)..... i winged this part of it too... i became a person that felt my own life for the first time and it transcended everything else... i actually started to realize that all the hard work and planning was FOR ME>....and it felt like it was FOR ME>..
and to me that was all that mattered..

i am trying to be specific...and some of it may or may not resonate

[Donna Joanne]

First of all let me preface my remarks by saying that I am at the very beginning of my transition. I read you all talking about the steps I have yet to experience yet. But my therapist helped me to realize that I am who I am, no matter how long my hair is, my large my bust is, or what is between my legs. What is inside me determines who I am. Hopefully someday the world will see me for who I am too. Isn't that our ultimate goal in "fitting in and transitioning"?

[Kathryn Martin]

Thank you Kaitelyn. My point is that the basic foundation of transition is the same for all of us.

If you are a male to female transsexual then surgery, Stephan, is a must. Please note that this does not mean that if you cannot have surgery for medical reasons or are truly incapable of raising the money you are not a MtF transsexual. If the need to to have SRS is not present than with all due respect you are not MtF because what you are transitioning to is a variation of your gender presentation and experience, not the closest approximation to being female. You can call me anything under the sun but this is a hard line. It doesn't matter if others can't see what is between your legs it is a matter of how you experience yourself and only secondarily what it means to others.

Angela, you are confusing transition which is an action taken with the fathoming of your own gender experience. Again, with all due respect, transitioning means that you cross from one place to another without return. There is no easing into anything. If you present male no matter how many hormones your take and how much therapy you have had you are presenting male. If you present female full time in the entire social and professional universe you have transitioned. Dressing up on the weekend or for a monthly meeting with the gurls is not transitioning. Thousands of cross dressers do so every weekend and other chances they get. If you present as female but go to work as male then you have not transitioned.

In addition, there is nothing individualistic about the basic process. Compare your own process to every full time transitioned person on this board and they did exactly what you did. They all went to see a therapist, at some time they started hormones, later they considered and had surgery and finally they lived their life. You are now working on making and living a life at who you are.

Let me add something else (and this will ignite serious protest but is something that in my view has to be discussed at some point because it is one of the most fundamental difficulties arising in transition) having SRS permits an experience which is absolutely central to women. Biologically anchored, sexuality for a female is about taking something in, creating a space in which others can live, even experience themselves. The fundamental physical gesture of this is being penetrated. In this sense being MtF transsexual is very much about exploring your own sexuality in being a woman. The post transition (as opposed to post op) issues experienced especially with regards to loneliness often, if you are willing to dig deep enough center around this.

[Angela Campbell]

point 1
Angela, you are confusing transition which is an action taken with the fathoming of your own gender experience. Again, with all due respect, transitioning means that you cross from one place to another without return. There is no easing into anything. If you present male no matter how many hormones your take and how much therapy you have had you are presenting male. If you present female full time in the entire social and professional universe you have transitioned. Dressing up on the weekend or for a monthly meeting with the gurls is not transitioning. Thousands of cross dressers do so every weekend and other chances they get. If you present as female but go to work as male then you have not transitioned.

Point 2
The fundamental physical gesture of this is being penetrated. In this sense being MtF transsexual is very much about exploring your own sexuality in being a woman. The post transition (as opposed to post op) issues experienced especially with regards to loneliness often, if you are willing to dig deep enough center around this.

Point 1

Transition is a process not a defined moment in time. Many spend months in the process, few can do so overnight. It took me around 6 months to get to where I can live full time and it will take another year before I complete SRS. SRS is one part of transition as is hormones, learning to cope with a change in gender and coming out. It is far from the defining moment. It may have been for you but not everyone. There is most definitely an easing into it for some and I would recommend doing so.

Point 2

Bullcrap. If you are attracted to males then yes your sexuality and part of your personality may be tied to being "penetrated". I know quite a few GG lesbians who would laugh at such a statement. I also know a few post ops who would strongly disagree.

[Kathryn Martin]

Really? Bull crap? Talk to them about their sexuality and reproductive configuration and listen carefully..... you might be surprised about the things you learn about being female. Your reaction is visceral, because I tend to say things that raise questions for people and that's not often easy especially in this process, but re-read the fullness of my comment and ask yourself even if just from a purely biological point of view what the nature and essence of being female on a purely biological basis is. Then discuss that with your GG lesbian friends. Then after you have done that ask yourself how the emotional and spiritual experience of men and women differ and compare the gestures from a emotional and spiritual point of view.

[Angela Campbell]

Perhaps bullcrap was a bit strong, laughable may be more appropriate, in the context that it is true for everyone. It may be true for you but it is opinion, preference and far from an absolute. I did not mean to insult you over your opinion.

[Badtranny]

It doesn't matter if others can't see what is between your legs it is a matter of how you experience yourself and only secondarily what it means to others.

?

...and if one were to experience themselves as a woman and be accepted as such by other women then why does a vestigial penis matter at all? I understand that Posties are emotionally invested in their new equipment and MUST believe that it is worthwhile if not essential, but let me tell you something; In my view it's neither.

People that share your view have lots of unpleasant words for girls like me but thankfully the people in my life only have one; Woman. Some of them know my secret, some of them don't, oddly enough it doesn't seem to matter. I've been full time since May 2012 and I haven't run across a pickle checkpoint yet.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Melissa you posted while I was typing...I agree...

SRS is only one part of transition....i would tell you however in the context of doing srs .. you don't know what you are missing!!!
I can attest to the fact that the feeling of being with someone in an intimate way feels right ...I had never experienced that before. I hope are feeling that feeling!

+++

Kathryn
I believe its a wonderful thing (transcendent for you I would guess) to have found your own place sexually...
but its your place..
the sex is great...it feels right... end of story...
I say this because the implication is that not feeling the way you feel is a sign of victimhood or unwillingness to do hard work ....that's simply not the case.

and I will keep harping on this ... its not that I did it this way...or Angela her way

its about experiencing life until you've reached a feeling of congruence in every way reasonably and medically possible...isn't that the meaning of all this..

Transitioners will tell you almost every time that the feeling of congruence is worth it..that ffs was worth it...that hrt was worth it... that srs was worth it...that new sexual feelings were worth it..and especially that killing gd in worth it!!!
that's a pattern... it doesn't matter if you do 4 of 5 of them if in the end you know in your soul that "it was worth it"..

...why does it seem to matter so much how other people achieve this wonderful feeling? you either feel it or you don't.

[Badtranny]

SRS is only one part of transition....i would tell you however in the context of doing srs .. you don't know what you are missing!!!

Perhaps I'm not missing anything. I have never felt an aversion to my dangler and I have never wished it away in the physical sense. My rather large testicles were another matter entirely and they now exist only in memory.

The effort required to be "whole" as the Posties put it just doesn't seem worthwhile to me. I'm not longing for it emotionally, and I certainly don't require it to live my life. Honestly I kind of feel sorry for people who are obsessed with those things, I can't imagine what it must be like to think about your junk all day.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Perhaps you are not missing anything...I agree its true
..sorry if my comment bugged you...didn't mean it that way..

why do you feel sorry for anyone that pursues congruence? do you think somebody feels sorry for you??
it makes no sense and its same attitude I presume you would not abide from someone in your life..

..and is what you said really true?? you feel sorry for me??
If you really do then that makes me sad for both of us.

who says anyone is thinking about this all day? its a conversation
you can't involve yourself in a conversation and then say the person you are talking to is obsessed about the very thing you are talking about
well you can but it doesn't make any sense

[Frances]

Who are these posties you speak about? Are they a homogenous group, or are specific people in your life? Do they actually comment on your physical intergrity?

I hear a lot of generalities in this conversation, and in life in general.

[Badtranny]

Perhaps you are not missing anything...I agree its true
..sorry if my comment bugged you...didn't mean it that way..

I know you didn't. It's just funny to me that someone would think that I was missing something because I'm not like them.



..and is what you said really true?? you feel sorry for me??
If you really do then that makes me sad for both of us.

I wasn't thinking of you with that comment because I don't consider you to be obsessed with the vageen. Or at least you don't talk about it very often and you actually have a very sensible attitude about it as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately the majority of posties that I've noticed tend to have a militant attitude about it and they have apparently warped my perspective.

I also tend to get my dander up when someone infers that I may be "less than". I'm less than nothing! ...wait, um ...that's not what I meant. ;-)



who says anyone is thinking about this all day? its a conversation

...well I'm not referring to this conversation. I'm talking about those that appear to have nothing else on their minds or goal sheet other than SRS. There are a few on this board I suppose but I'm mainly talking about people I've met in real life. Some are very sad cases indeed.

[Kathryn Martin]

....when someone infers that I may be "less than". You probably believe that someone is me. I assure you nothing could be further from the truth, all I am saying is that I am different from you and that transsexuals are different from you. This is not a competition no matter how much you want to make it one. What you were seeking and have found is entirely different from what I sought and found.

There is one topic however that consistently gets a lot of flack. It is two pronged: firstly, the difficulties of overcoming male socialization and the difficulties of integrating into a female life. Given that this (as I understand it) is the intent of the OP to be addressed: fitting in and transition, I think it would a good idea to get back to that.

[Rianna Humble]

There has been too much bickering and off-topic discussion in this thread.

I have tried to be patient with the discussion but when it gets down to trading insults or getting on your high horse because someone misspells your user name then I have to step in.

I am not going to let thread hijackers force me to close this thread. Any further attempts to take this thread off-topic will be deleted and may meet with additional moderator action.

[Jonianne]

.....It means nothing to me that I hid my past on some occasions, that I didn't on others, and that I ignored it on others...who cares.
I live in the same house, my kids go to the same school..my kids call me dad...its all good...Some people only know Kaitlyn...others knew me for much longer and my past is part of their lives. Oddly enough, even though I've transitioned in place and met 100's of people in my town, not once has anyone that only met Kaitlyn "found out" and came to me...It's actually very surprising. But again, it doesn't matter to me anymore. Transition taught me that..........clearly I wing it a lot more than others.....

Oh, I love what you say here Kaitlyn! This is exactly what I am going through. I have to play it by ear so much. I try to just let myself be and trust how I feel in each situation. There have been times I have outed myself when it seemed the person was trying to figure me out. Other times I just let them have their wonders. It depends on the situation. Like you, my kids will always call me "dad".

Lea, I guess a suggestion I might give you is to focus on the feminine qualities, especially personality, that you already posess and build on them. Let others see those clearly in your life. That helps make others focus less on the things we have to learn in our day to day lives, to better present ourselves.

Example is: I've always been one to let others have plenty of input. Now I try to especially listen to others when they talk to me, make solid eye contact, touch them gently, ask questions to keep the conservation going, but most of all, listen so that others can feel safe in sharing and know what they say effects me emotionaly as well. The connection with others is something we can build on, to live more like many women do.

Lea, in your desire to transition, do you spend time out and about just learning to be OK, no matter what you think people may think? Spending more and more time out as Lea will make the time of transition a much more smooth one.