I don't understand how we can treat each other this way

[Princess Grandpa]

Julie and I have met up with a group of sisters here in SoCal. An amazing group of women who immediately accepted us into their midst and made us feel welcome and included. (Despite my social awkwardness.) I just read a post on their Facebook page that I need to discuss.

The woman posting was leaving the group because they are accepting of "non questioning cis-males just because they put on a make up and dress". Without getting into why a Cis-male would put on a dress, suffice it to say, she objects to treating cross dressers as equals. Those of us that self identify male but still need to dress up she feels should not be accepted as sisters.

So my question is how can a group struggling for acceptance be so intolerant within their own community? I have seen similar discussions on this and other forums. It seems to me anytime she is met with intolerance and judgement out in the world, she is only getting what she deserves. That is how she treats others. I know there are some here who would agree with her. I would love to hear how you feel that your views towards those of us that self-identifies male is any different than the way your treated by so much of society? Why should you be accepted for who you are if you refuse to offer the same to the rest of us?

Hug
Rita

[Jaylyn]

For some reason there is always someone every where that can only see with blinders on that let them see straight forward. Some think that their way is the only way and not necessarily what's best for the group. I've noticed in the USA this is really getting to be a problem wether it be politics, social behavior, religion, occupations, where you were raised and the family values instilled by our parents. We have just about reached a revolution status in some of the talk I am hearing on politics. I don't want to make anyone mad but I can't understand why in a supposedly a free society a person can't be who they are and leave the other persons business alone. In your case and our country's case we would be better off if we all could realize we are joined as one in the human race. The minor differences in our behaviors shouldn't be a big deal we are still part of the human race. Color, occupation, wealth, celebrity or a Cross dresser we are all the same. I detest a person that cannot accept another to be a unique person that is expressing themselves the way they want. Each of us are different why the social cliques, those that think they are better than someone else make me want to puke. We all need to be more tolerant with one another, and still keep our common sense about what really matters in our lives. I identify as a male in normal every day life, I have no desire to transition to female. I don't begrudge those that do though or judge them. I just love to dress in soft pretty attire from time to time, don't judge me and I won't judge you as I see it. I hope I didn't cross any lines here.

[Jorja]

You can please some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time. This is a variation of an Abraham Lincoln quote but it fits. Simply wave bye-bye to this lady and do not worry about it. It is her loss. She was probably planning on leaving anyhow. Now she has an excuse.

[sandra-leigh]

I am unclear as to what the purpose of the group is intended to be, and I am unclear about the "non-questioning" bit and about what variety of "sisters" you mean??

The impression I get from your post is that the group accepts transgender people, is perhaps even primarily about questioning gender, and that the "sisters" are transgender to transsexual or gender-queer, possibly together with some non-questioning women? (the last in that you do not mention them objecting to your wife) ?

[stephNE]

I wish we could treat all the little groups as one community.

But I have experienced a similar thing. I used to work in Washington DC in an office that was not far from Dupont Circle, and very popular gay area. Usually at lunch, a number of us would venture to a local restaurant, and we would frequently see crossdressers. One of my coworkers was openly gay, and he made derogatory comments about the CDers (he didn't know I was one). I remember asking him if he realized they were a part of the bigger LGBT community. And he said no, they weren't. He explained he was gay because he liked men - not men pretending to be women.

I sort of think there is strength in numbers, so the bigger our group, maybe the more we can accomplish and be accepted.

[Ria Lynn]

Word of advice then: Don't go on Tumblr. There's a lot of of acceptance and support there, but white-hate, straight-hate, and cis-hate are starting to be a problem if you fall into the wrong crack. Me, I'm there for the nerd fandoms. It boggles me when people want acceptance for who they are but are unwilling to accept others for who they are. It's like a gay person who bashes straights but flips if a straight says anything about them. It doesn't matter if you're repressed, prosecuted, or a minority, prejudice and bigotry are the same no matter who you are. Being faced with prejudice is no excuse to have it yourself. Unless that specific person has done something to you, there's no reason to be like that. I'm bi, and there are those who think bisexuals are just confused or in the closet about being homosexual. No. I find both women and men sexually attractive, have been with both, and enjoyed them equally. Being married to a cross dresser gives me the best of both worlds. The elitism some people have makes me so sad, because people like that hurt their cause more than they help it.

[Katey888]

Like Sandra-Leigh I'm a bit confused about who the 'sisters' actually are.. The fact that they identify you as cis-male implies that they are not... And assuming that to be the case - I agree wholeheartedly with you Rita... I don't understand how folk can be so intolerant other than the usual issues; we're just such a misunderstood group of people! I think it's the complexity that baffles people a lot of the time - we're sometimes gay, sometimes bi, often hetero; some dress for fun, some for sex, some to live, some just to go shopping, some just underdress; some try to pass, some don't bother... I could go on... :eek:

Try making sense of all that to someone who's prepared to listen, let alone someone who probably just wants an excuse to be bigoted...

A shame but the group's better off without her... :D

Katey x

[Kate Simmons]

Sounds like kind of a self centered attitude Hon. I accept everyone for who they are as a person. The only requirement I have for friendship is to always be yourself, regardless of who that "self" may be. I think a lot of it has to do with being a mature person, which evidenty some folks unfortunately lack at being. Hopefully some day she will wake up my friend and maybe be truly happy.:)

[Barbra P]

Like Sandra-leigh I’m a bit puzzled too. I don’t understand what this group of sisters original mission was/is, why were they founded in the first place? Was this group of sisters a transgender group or was this group genetic-females? What is the primary makeup of this group of sisters, genetic-females, trans-women, or both? If the group has strayed from its original purpose the group may no longer be meeting the needs of this woman, and/or she may not feel comfortable having a cross dressing male(s) in the group. I think we all realize that there may be a few people out there who don’t accept us and don’t feel comfortable being in the presence of trans-gendered people. In some cases this may be due more to ignorance than bigotry.

There have been countless replies recounting how someone who was apprehensive, negative, fearful, non-accepting, and even hostile changed once they got to know and understand more about people who are transgendered. Unfortunately there are too few occasions where we get to educate these people, and many of us don’t have the tools (subject knowledge, personality, public speaking prowess, lack of fear of being us, and most importantly comfort meeting others) to become good educators. Sadly many more of our ranks just don’t care.

I believe technically that once a male puts on makeup and a dress he is presenting as female and therefore no longer cis-male. “Liberace's sequined robes and feather boas might remind us of a drag queen, but he was still a cis male.” Urban Dictionary.

[BillieAnneJean]

Weaker people have an inborn need to discriminate. Those who are strong inside have no need. An example are SOME of the Harly riders discriminate against the people who "ride rice". Odd because some "rice" motorcycles may be built in the USA while some of the parts in their beloved Harleys are imported. SOME power boaters look down on sailors, SOME sailors look down on power boaters. SOME classical music fans look down on rockers. Back in the sixties there were two groups in the UK, the Mods and the Rockers. The Mods wore more preppy clothes, likes motor scooters. The rockers were in to jeans, leather and "real" motorcycles. These groups were made up of young baby boomers with too much money and free time. They would clash even violently, causing significant turmoil in the UK. For what? Just because someone looked different and rode something different? Cars, clothes, even accents are employed as excuses for discriminating against fellow man.
There is a huge difference between what a CDer experiences and what someone changing gender experiences. I can understand a TS person thinking that a CDer hasn't a clue about their ordeal. I certainly can't fathom what thy are going through. I would give every one of them a big hug for their situation.
But those boaters, two wheeled powered vehicle operators, and music fans would be better off if they all pooled their influences. If it disintegrates in to factions, then any group that opposes their needs can control the rules.
We don't necessarily have to be in close contact, but how can we expect the people outside our sector of society, the "normals" to not discriminate against us if we discriminate against each other? That person could have sought out a group of her exact duplicates but she may find some benefit in maintain contact with others who experience some of the similar discrimination from mainstream society.

[Beverley Sims]

I feel the woman wanted to leave and make a political comment at the same time.

There will be dissenters in any group.

Why are there no dissenters here, They have been shown the door. :)

[arbon]

So my question is how can a group struggling for acceptance be so intolerant within their own community?

Is it really the same community?
The issues of crossdressers and the issues of a transsexual are worlds apart so there is going to be friction between the two.

I like croddressers mostly. But say in a support group their all talking about planning to dress up for an outing, or how to do their makeup, or getting more freedom to dress from their wifes, showing each other pictures of themselves in different outfits.... it does not help me at all. Likewise if the transsexuals are talking about all the crap they are taking at work since transitioning, or try to wade through all the legalities of changing their identity, being rejected by family and friends, how to get the right medical care - thats all stuff that probably is not to important to a male identifying crossdresser.

Its not intolerance but very different needs.

[Princess Grandpa]

To the best of my knowledge there is no mission other than social. The closest I could think of to describe them is sort of like a meet up group only instead of getting together in a hall or something they go out in the community. I would point out that the majority of the girls are TS. But of course I don't really know that. Nobody questioned me on my gender identity or discussed theirs. They just said come and have fun with us.

I don't think that it was me specifically she objected to as much as people like me. I know of several in the group that I believe are CD not TS. There was no mention of discomfort with my wife or the other cis-females in the group. I appreciate all the feedback. I should point out, I'm not hurt or upset by the events. For the first time in my life perhaps I am quite happy with who I am.

I am still hoping to hear from those who agree with this woman. I'm not looking for confrontation but I would really like to understand the thought process that allows for "you must accept me as I am, but I don't accept that group over there."

Hug
Rita

Arbon:

It's not a support group. It's a social group. Yes the challenges you face are nothing like I experience. This means there has to be animosity? What we do have in common is a need/desire to be loved and accepted for who we are. I almost never respond to posts in the TS forums for the reasons you just described. My paradigm of the world and my experiences have little to no context in your daily struggles.

All that being said, while you may see yourself as a different community, society looks down on us all equally. The only difference is we get it within the community too? How is that right? I appreciate your response but I'm really no closer to understanding why a T.S. Should be accepted by society and a CD can't be accepted by the T.S.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying all transsexuals feel this way. I'm merely trying to understand better the ones that do.

Hug
Rita

[GeminaRenee]

Is it really the same community? . . .Its not intolerance but very different needs.

Different needs - fair enough. But it's still intolerance. Ultimately, we are all in this together. There isn't any benefit in a cd pushing a tg away, or vice versa. In the grand scheme of things, we (as in, the cd/tg/ts/dq spectrum) are not in a great place. And I guarantee you that Joe Blow on the street doesn't see someone who is tg any differently as someone who is cd. Hell, it's hard enough to get people to separate the t-community from the non-hetero community. My point is that when we stand together, despite our differences we can do more for the benefit of the trans-universe as a whole. It does no good to reject one sub-group just because her individual needs and concerns are different than mine. Strength lies in numbers, and to facilitate division among the larger group just makes it harder to make a difference in the context of a larger society.

[KaceyR]

That's kind of a question I've wondered on. Maybe in a broader spec I guess though. I mean, I've always been open minded and supportive on GLBT issues as I've had friends on the G+L side for..27 years or more. So lo, CDing expression and my curiosity gets going in Sept and I'm digging up info. And finding out that the T side isn't always liked and some intolerance by some GL's.. (I'd thought about bringing my CDing up to a long L friend until reading about some of this.. One of my G friends knows and has no issues though so it may be a non issue with most and just be more of the exclusivity kind of thing I type more on below).
And then I dig up some CD orgs I find limits placed there (hetero only..once a member goes transitional with HRT or has other sexual prefs they drop supporting her like a hot potato with disdain).

I guess some just can't separate the gender and the orientation...
Or maybe it's too much separation that allows those with a 'superiority' complex to go the way that poster did.
Possibly it's just that posters' nature to try to one-up people a lot in general and it's getting applied to this.

I also could see some psychologically thinking "I'm unique because I CD. One of the rare-ish few. That makes me special" and basically becomes their ego charge. So the others in the group now makes her uniqueness not so special and she can't stand the ego loss. Kind of like goth kids..group starts up. Once too many goth it up, (or vampire it up in the South Park ep :)) then they don't feel as unique and feel their goth is 'ruined'.

CDers CD for various reasons, be it full GD, fetish, or just as a way to express and coexist with the other half of self. The 'why' shouldn't be an issue in a CDer group and neither should orientation. If you're wanting to expand people's awareness and acceptance of CD and it's reasons.. Then you need all forms of people standing and helping each other together, and not drive others or themselves back into their closets.

On your entry Jaylyn, I pretty much agree with you. It astounds me how fast and volatile it's all getting nowadays. And a lot seems blindness to logic as well. (Well..with the way science and logic teachings and facts have been attacked and manipulated in schools and propaganda'ed in media, it seems at times US is becoming the land of the absurd...)
Much hype, emotion, and info spread w/o true validation of truths-taken at face value. That's how bad rulers and governments have risen to power elsewhere in the past...and it seems history's repeating itself...just even faster thanks to hi tech. Kind of scary.

[Lillyasia]

Nothing hurts a cause more than a group claiming discrimination, prejudice, or inequality to practice that very same thing. The more factions and divisions, the more the infighting. Look at countries that divide by ethincity, or race groups that divide up into gangs. And now how liberals treat conservatives. It's everywhere, the need to create divisions.

[melissakozak]

Oh boy! In the early 1990's Triess had some serious struggles with membership due to the fact that it self-identified as 'predominantly' heterosexual males who enjoy occasionally dressing in women's clothing as a means for expressing a so-called second self. The history behind this is interesting, and I think its motto and/or manifesto, if you will, was created to make space and comfort for the wives of crossdressers. Those who pursued transition or who were on HRT were not really encouraged to share their particular journey at gatherings, etc. FLASH FORWARD twenty years later. Oh boy! The times have certainly changed. I don't know of ANY TG group that is exclusive, and since our respective gender presentations are on a very fluid scale both in physical transformation, social transformation, etc., there is no motto to live by anymore but the one an individual self creates. Now, in this particular circumstance, I think this kind of exclusion is unnecessary and harmful. We have enough trouble with the gender police in the cis-world attempting to invalidate our existence and make life generally tough all the way around. Too bad. In my inner circle, we have transgender women who are on HRT, some have had SRS, some have done nothing, others a little something, some predominantly identify as men but enjoy occasionally dressing....no one gives a flip HOW we identify or HOW we express our gender variance....we are all just people, and we happen to enjoy each others' company a great deal. Too bad you had this experience....hugs, Melissa.

[samanthasolo]

We all have a common bond in the fact that we dress but when it comes down to each and every individual there will be some similarities and a lot of diffferences when it boils down to how we identify, present, sexual preferences, and mostly OPINIONS! Granted each and everyone of us will not agree when it come to that last point. It is unfortunate that those who live in glass houses and DO THROW STONES are one of the biggest reason why OUR community in general does not get the social acceptance and tolerance that we want and deserve. How can society grant any credibility, tolerance, or acceptance to a community that has those among it that are not doing things to build it from within but instead are creating inner turmoil by being judgemental and critical with opinions that are tearing the community apart within! Opinions and Hypocrisy go hand in hand and when they serve NO GOOD CAUSE they should be kept to the individuals SELF!

[Nicole Erin]

There will be dissenters in any group.
Why are there no dissenters here, They have been shown the door. :)
Oh I love when that happens here. I remember two in particular. One of them got exposed as a total fake.

The funny thing is that even though some leave their "community" because they feel they are somehow above the rest.
Someone wants to fade out of the picture, that is fine. They should keep their mouths shut because once they start running it, they pretty much burn the bridge on their way out.
They have two illusions going on. One is that they are "trannier than thou" but also they hallucinate that anyone will even care if they leave.

[arbon]

but I'm really no closer to understanding why a T.S. Should be accepted by society and a CD can't be accepted by the T.S.


Ultimately, we are all in this together.

Their are people who are very out and open about who they are, who face the world head on fight to get that acceptance. But most crossdressers don't fall into that group. Most crossdressers I know are not there with me. They are anonymous on forums, and go to the support / social groups once in a while and when they go out in public its to places where people will not know who they are. They are anonymous. There are exceptions, a few open crossdressers, but not very many.

I had to face my whole community where I live and earn peoples respect and acceptance for who I am as a woman. The only other people in it with me were my wife and my daughter. There were no crossdressers there with me. Most transsexuals I know had to do it alone and they are the ones bring about acceptance and opening peoples minds.

I don't look down on crossdressers I'll hang out with you go have fun with you but don't say your in it with me if your living a secret life and not actually doing anything to make the world a more accepting place.


EDIT: I wanted to ask a question.



All that being said, while you may see yourself as a different community, society looks down on us all equally. The only difference is we get it within the community too? How is that right?


If I can ask do you live openly as a crossdressers? If not how do you experience society looking down on you?

[Lorileah]

Oh I love when that happens here. I remember two in particular. One of them got exposed as a total fake.



HEY! I'm still here! :)

But in RE: OP
This is not an unusual thing among minority groups. The "I am _____er than you are" people. I have the same thing in a club I belong to. To me equality means everyone is equal. For some of the members there is an equality hierarchy. In other words, they say other groups have suffered less than they did in history. From what the OP said I think the person who was leaving thought for some reason it was a TS group and not a TG group (if you have questions on that read the sticky above on common labels). we have the same division here and it raises its ugly head frequently.

[DonnaT]

I appreciate your response but I'm really no closer to understanding why a T.S. Should be accepted by society and a CD can't be accepted by the T.S.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying all transsexuals feel this way. I'm merely trying to understand better the ones that do.
Some who are TG/TS feel that a TG/CD is not a "real" transgender person. This is similar to gays or lesbians who do not accept those who are bi. Bigotry.


In other cases, the TS person is afraid that a CDer in their company, socially, will result in others (cis, i.e., not trans) labeling them (TS) as "men in dresses." Fear.

[samantha rogers]

Arbon, while I certainly see your point about those fighting the public battle and those who are not, there is another facet of this that does bind us all together. Not everyone is able, for whatever reason to be a soldier in that war, but all of us on one level or another do face a struggle for acceptance even if the struggle is only with ourself. We are all part of a gender spectrum. Some are at one end and others at the opposite end. Or, in another way of viewing it we are all at different points on our path. The thing that binds us is the intolerance and lack of understanding we all face in trying to be whole, honest to ourselves, and in finding our place in this unaccepting world. I would think that compassion for each other would be the best course. While I certainly understand that the dialog may be different at different places, and that the pain and rejection may be different, the pain can be just as real regardless. Rejection of others who are different remains the crux of the problem, doesn't it?

[Princess Grandpa]

When we first started working I with individuals living with developmental disabilities we encountered much what your describing Lorileah. The higher functioning individuals would treat the lower functioning cruelly, much as normal society treated them. I was astounded by this but in the end I can see how that comes to be. To find the same things in other places more than shocks me. They have an excuse they are retarded. The rest of us have no such excuse!

Fwiw I have never personally experienced this directed at me. Almost all interactions I have had have been positive. The ladies we meet at the clubs are an amazing group. The majority of the people I encounter on my few public excursions have been upbeat. I can only think of a handful of times things were unpleasant.

You're right Arbon. I'm not out there every day trying to eek out an existence on a day to day basis. Then again not all women were fighting for the right to vote. Not all minorities were out fighting for civil rights. Not every colonist fought for independence. That doesn't make them any less entitled than those that did.

Hug
Rita

[Angela Campbell]

It can work both ways. I am a member of a large Tri Ess group.....the largest one in the USA...the by laws state it is for "heterosexual crossdressers and their spouses". Ok good enough I guess. The thing is there are a good number who are members who do not fit into this category for one reason or another. (gay, TS, not married)

In this group there has been friction against the ts members because they do not fit into the description. Most of the issues begin from a CD's wife. They really do not want any contact between ts and their husband.

Although a few have left the group over this I have stayed. (I am ts and have transitioned) I am somewhat shunned by some members and especially so by the wives. It has caused some to kind of bunch up into groups within the group. The reasons Arbon mentioned have a lot to do with it. The interest of a ts is not going to be the same as the interest of the cd. Sure there are some great friendships there but still many times the separation still exists, and some who are just not going to like the other side.

[Kristina_nolagirl]

The more often I go out in the world, the more often I feel that discrimination amongst CDs/ts/m2f/gender this/gender that is greater than discrimination from "normal" people. I am in awe of the courage and bravery shown by TS people to live the way they feel they were born and I respect the average "family man" who tries his wife's panties on when she's not looking.

In my opinion, every single human being deserves respect - until they give you a reason why they don't. I do my best to not be the person who desires acceptance without giving it first. People who do the opposite are toxic in my mind and I go out of my way to avoid them. I think this person leaving the group is a great thing!

[Adriana Moretti]

So my question is how can a group struggling for acceptance be so intolerant within their own community?

I see this way too often and it turns my stomach...I saw something today that said people transitioning dont like cd's etc etc....I dont get it either...we are ALL a minority...and you have to pick & choose your battles wisely ...fighting ourselves gets us nowhere. I will say this when it comes to CD's though ( and this does not include the gals in this forum) but have you seen some of the CD's out there? Especially on facebook? I joined a few groups thinking I was going to meet some cool gals like from here in the forum...all it is is unshaved men in panties looking for sex with wigs from the party store. It is gross...and honestly does not help us out in any way...They really make us look bad...unfortunately that side of our lifestyle will never go away. I can see why people would have a dis-taste for us if this is the only image they see. I can see why anyone would have a dislike towards us with closet queens like this running around...THAT turns my stomach

[Princess Grandpa]

If I can ask do you live openly as a crossdressers? If not how do you experience society looking down on you?

I'm not sure how to answer that. I have been out fully presenting en femme. Not only to the clubs I deem safe and comfortable but to some mainstream clubs and restaurants. Mostly I'm extremely uncomfortable at those venues and won't go any more. When we go out with the girls to someplace other than my "safe zones" I go as some weird hybrid. My nails are always painted, my wardrobe has grown to the point where I dress almost exclusively from the ladies side of the store. Pants tops *giggles* panties. I don't wear dresses, wig, or forms in public. Well not the mainstream, I attend these tgirl nights at a couple local clubs two to four times a month. I take my dresses and skirts to the fitting room to try them on. So yes I'm out of the closet, but not very far. We are a household of 14 only the five adults that are actually family know and only my wife has seen.

I have not really encountered society looking down on me much. I can think of three separate incidents only. Again I'm not out there trying to live my life like this. I NEVER claimed to have go through what you girls go through. I can't even really say I know how things are for you at best I can imagine. That being said, I'm not sure I see the relevance. I don't really object to not being seen as equal on the gender hierarchy. If I object to anything it's that there could be a hierarchy. /shrug. My prime question being how can one demand acceptance for themselves withhold it from others for any reason.

I feel like I'm entitled to be accepted for who I am whether I'm in the closet or out. Whether I'm black or Mexican or Jewish, gay or hetero, I am me! If they have to accept you, than you have to accept me for who I am. (The generic you. I'm really not attacking you specifically). None of us deserve to be accepted as we are if we all aren't.

Hug
Rita

[arbon]

Your being a crossdresser is still mostly a secret then except those 5 people.

a transsexual wants to hang out with other transsexuals and not with crossdressers = you are not being accepted for who you are?

I do find it annoying all the implications that the TS's are all thinking they are better then and above everyone else and crossdressers feeling shunned by us, feeling like we are intolerant of you.

I think the problem is on you.

So if I wanted to go hang out with a group of gay men and they are not to happy about that does it mean I am not being accepted for who I am? No, it just means they are gay men who don't really want a trans woman as part of their group.

[CynthiaD]

I don't understand why people treat each other badly for any reason. (Not that I'm completely innocent myself.) We're all in this world together. Why be nasty? It won't make you feel any better.

[AllieSF]

I agree that the person leaving the group was unhappy there and just wanted to make a point on the way out, whether being TS, TG, GG or whatever. Some people are like that. I also agree that the world would be a much better place if we all just accepted everyone else however they look or present, and then get on with life.

Arbon, I understand where you are coming from but I do not see from the comments made here so far, including by the OP that she or others are singling out TS's. The TS girl just happened to be the person in this situation. There are people of all sorts who think that they are better than someone else, including CD's and TS's. The acceptance issues do exist everywhere and surprisingly here too where one would think that we would try with extra effort to put up with more, rather than less, than the general populace does. I think that the point of Princess Grandpa is that we should be more tolerant. Her example was from her support/social meet up group. I have seen the same at a few meet up groups too. I just write it off as people being human beings with all their varied faults. And, to add to your final sentence, the gay guys may just not like your personality, or generally stated, someone's personality and thus ignore/shun the other person. It does not always have to be caused by one's gender presentation, identification, or even looks. Personality always plays a major role in anyone's acceptance and tolerance by others.

[kimdl93]

Beats the heck out of me! Be glad this lady self selected out of the group. It will be better for her absence IMHO.

[PaulaQ]

The woman posting was leaving the group because they are accepting of "non questioning cis-males just because they put on a make up and dress".

So my question is how can a group struggling for acceptance be so intolerant within their own community?


I've seen disputes and prejudice like this from both TS women towards CDs, and from CDs directed at TS women. I have no patience for these sorts of prejudices in either direction.

In my view, we are much better off considering the things we have in common, than in bickering over our differences, real though those may be.

What we have in common:
1. The Closet - Except for the wunderkind who come out at age 5, most all of us spend some time in the closet - many of us, much of our lives. Did any of us enjoy this experience - I think not! We were ALL miserable to hide.

2. A society that doesn't tolerate gender variant males - the patriarchy views *all* of us as a threat. Society treats all of us, CDs, TSs, DQ, DK, as the lowest of the low. We are reviled. Men bully us, women hate us.

3. We are all taught to hate ourselves, to be ashamed of who we truly are.

4. MANY TSs started out crossdressing. How many of us were sure we were "just a CD"? I'd guess most of us who CDed. How many of us wanted to be male identified? Many of us. We were obviously wrong, so in excluding CDers, we inadvertently exclude some of our own when they are the most vulnerable.

There are differences to be sure, yet consider:
- The TS may lament "I take so much abuse being out, that CD can just slide back into boy mode and enjoy male privilege once more", but consider how miserable our own life in the closet was, trying to conform to something we just were not.

- The CD may lament "they get to be women! They get it all!", forgetting the prejudice, discrimination, and violence many TSs face. The CD, in trying to cling to some shred of cis-privilege may decry "That TS is NOTHING like me! I'm a man!", not realizing that the TS in question's history may have been virtually identical to the CD up to some point. Nothing alike, yet having the same story?

Folks, the problem isn't CDs or TSs. The problem is society. It'd be just as happy if *all* of us didn't exist.

The only real complaint I could see that a TS could have with CDs is that politically, y'all are almost invisible, despite being vastly more numerous than us. The TSs tend to do the heavy lifting on gender issues - the problem is we're like 0.3% of the population! There just aren't enough of us do make any difference or to have much political clout. We need the help.

I think all of us along the transgender spectrum need to really hang together, or surely we'll hang separately!

Anyway, I view the CDs of the world as my sisters, and am privileged to be friends with many fine girls on this forum.

[whowhatwhen]

Sorry but if your safe space is SHATTERED by a crossdresser showing up then that's pretty tough beans.

What if one ends up transitioning?
What if they want to talk to some people who are TS?

I know "I'm not here to educate you" is used as a joke but throwing a hissy fit for someone simply showing up is incredibly petty.

[PaulaQ]

BTW, the reason the TS complained about a CD at the meeting is because she looks down on the CDs. Because TSs are viewed as further up in the hierarchy than CDs.

Oh wait - who is responsible for setting up the hierarchies in the world. Oh right - MEN. Hey, virtually every TS was socialized as a man to some point in their life. A lot of us never unlearn how to stop jockeying and posturing for position, even when it makes no difference.

In other words - that girl needed to quit acting like a man would've.

[Eryn]

Intolerance comes in many forms. There are TS folks who poo-poo CDers as "posers" simply because they have managed to find a situation that avoids full transition. OTOH, I know of CDing groups that exclude TS folks. It seems that when birds of a feather flock together they sometimes start examining each other's plumage much more closely.

I may not be TS, but their interests coincide with mine more often than not. I'm not gay, but we all want to be able to do as we wish without others telling us that we are wrong.

If we don't hang together we will all be hanged separately.

[Princess Grandpa]

Message deleted by me. Words said in hurt that shouldn't have been said

[Princess Grandpa]

Message deleted by me. Words said that shouldn't have been and apologies are in order

Sorry

[PaulaQ]

The only answer I get to why it's ok is because I'm just not good enough. Lol never actually had anyone try and make me feel that way before. Thanks for the experience

Honey, you are plenty good enough, and there are lots of us Trans women who'd pal am around with you. The woman at your social event was just being a bitch, and she was wrong to call you "cis", as you are most certainly someplace on the TG spectrum.

[ReineD]

I think it's OK for support groups to exclude people who do not share the members' common issues. People do need to navigate - get through the mechanics - of their particular situations. There are all kinds of support groups: for bereaving parents of dead children, for mothers of triplets, for the newly divorced, for parents of Downs Syndrome kids, for wives whose husbands turned out to be gay … any number of issue specific groups. Why shouldn't transsexuals seek support from other transitioning TSs, and CDers seek support from other men who face their similar issues?

It's different though for social groups. Imagine having a neighborhood block party and excluding folks above a certain age, or folks who either have or don't have kids. People can get along socially even when their issues aren't shared.

Maybe the TSs or CDs who in a purely social context, turn their noses up at others who aren't exactly like them, need to lighten up. Maybe they need to get out of themselves and learn that there is more to life than their own specific issues. And if they are unable to do this, then it's their loss, isn't it.

[sandra-leigh]

Their are people who are very out and open about who they are, who face the world head on fight to get that acceptance. But most crossdressers don't fall into that group. Most crossdressers I know are not there with me. They are anonymous on forums, and go to the support / social groups once in a while and when they go out in public its to places where people will not know who they are. They are anonymous. There are exceptions, a few open crossdressers, but not very many.

I was over here, not knowing what I was, but expanding my obvious dressing into everywhere except work (and stressing highly over not being able to do that). My crossdresser friends would listen and sympathize; my wife would not do either. Thankfully I went to a gender therapist even while I was still thinking I was a crossdresser; it kept me sane while TS members here were telling me that I was nothing like them because I wasn't in a hurry to get a genital change.

[Alice Torn]

We live in strange times. It seems everyone is having a difficult time accepting others' opinions, and differences. Whether a church, company, team, military, 12 sep, marriage, family. Strife seems rampant everywhere today. Human nature! It takes some work, to put aside our egos.

[devida]

A couple of points:

Every LGBT organization I can find identifies cross dressers in the transgender category. I have no idea how you could not identify a cross dresser as gender variant or transgender. It hardly matters that a cross dresser may identify himself as a heterosexual male. He is wearing women's clothes and that very action places him in a gender variant category, i.e. transgender. He doesn't have to want to be a biological woman. He doesn't have to be transitioning even though the word transgender sounds like it requires transitioning. All he has to do to qualify as transgender is wear women's clothes, secretly, in public, just underdressing, passing, or never going out or whatever. BUT, the important point is that he does not HAVE TO identify as transgender. He can identify any way he pleases. Transgender oppression is precisely the oppression of requiring someone to identify as a particular gender. Every single cross dresser has experienced this social oppression just as every single transexual has. You do not need a single other individual to know you are a cross dresser to experience transphobic oppression. Society is unfortunately full of examples of the oppression of dissimilar minorities. The oppression of gender variant people is just one of the more obvious. I do not identify as a cross dresser or as a male, heterosexual or otherwise but I certainly cross dress. I am proud of being a transgender person of color, but frankly, very few people are going to see me as transgender or as a person of color. This doesn't matter to me because I do not identify myself on the basis of whether other people think I am this or that. I identify myself on the basis of what I know I am.

Which brings me to the second point. People have many ways of identifying themselves, or defining themselves. The worst, most pernicious, cruelest, and most hateful way is by defining yourself as what you are not. People who do this should be regarded with care and compassion or just plain avoided if possible. They are damaged. They do not know that happiness comes from knowing who we are, not who we are not. Fortunately more and more people understand this and as MLK said the arc of history does bend towards justice. I am optimistic that people want to be happy, not fearful and miserable and that slowly, step by step, people come to the understanding that by accepting others as equal to ourselves we allow ourselves to accept ourselves as we are.

[Princess Grandpa]

Arbon:
Well actually, it's those five people, the SA's at dress barn, forever 21, old navy, tommy hillfigger, etc etc etc. and I still don't understand how that relates to being considered a lessor being. I have a deep respect for what I imagine you face on a daily basis. I still can't understand how you can demand for yourself what you begrudge others. We will clearly never agree on this. To me equal rights mean equal for all. I wish you well *hug* were not your enemy and should be friends. That's not really possible if we are considered inferior. In almost every post you insist you don't feel that way but then you're words seem to say that exactly.

Your right Renee in a support group for TS it would be reasonable to expect everyone fits the parameters of the group. In a social setting well /shrug

In the end I could care less if this woman objects to my presence at the bar or party's or outings. (I have no reason to believe she was referring to me directly). I have made some wonderful friends. Not only some of the other Tgirls but amongst the staff at Hamburger Marys long beach are truly remarkable humans. If suddenly my need to dress evaporated I would still hang out with these amazing people. I don't honestly know which of these ladies are CD and which are TS and can't imagine why it matters. Well other than curiosity. I have learned so much about myself in such a short time. I have never entered a new social situation and been so readily included and made to feel accepted and loved.

My observation remains true. If you want acceptance but refuse to give it you're a hypocrite!

Hug
Rita

[Caden Lane]

There is true power in numbers, which every sub-sect of the spectrum and related lifestyles seemingly fail to realize. Its similar to some of the assertions that Helen Boyd made in her book My Husband Betty. By the TG alienating CDs, or CDs alienating gay or bisexual persons, we all do each other a disservice, we limit out numbers, we limit potential for action or strength. Sure, I do not relate completely to a TS, but there are still elements of GD that relate to why I do what I do.

It's been said that we have differing support needs, and asked how we experience society looking down on us even if we live anonymously. Well sure we have differing needs, we are at different parts of the spectrum. But its the SAME spectrum. As for how do we experience society looking down on us? Oh I don't know, we lie and omit to our spouses because we are fearful of their reactions. We hide in shadows because society repeatedly demonstrates that it is intolerant, and will refuse to accept us, just as it refuses to fully accept TS. It mocks us collectively. We are in the same boat, even if some people wish to push us overboard.

Edit- It doesn't matter Princess what they are, or where they fall in the spectrum. We are all human, we are all TG, and we are all victims of labels. Some of us just choose to use those labels as hurtful weapons, even those who are subject to the same labels.

[Princess Grandpa]

A couple of points:

Every LGBT organization I can find identifies cross dressers in the transgender category. I have no idea how you could not identify a cross dresser as gender variant or transgender. It hardly matters that a cross dresser may identify himself as a heterosexual male. He is wearing women's clothes and that very action places him in a gender variant category, i.e. transgender. He doesn't have to want to be a biological woman. He doesn't have to be transitioning even though the word transgender sounds like it requires transitioning. All he has to do to qualify as transgender is wear women's clothes, secretly, in public, just underdressing, passing, or never going out or whatever. BUT, the important point is that he does not HAVE TO identify as transgender. He can identify any way he pleases. Transgender oppression is precisely the oppression of requiring someone to identify as a particular gender. Every single cross dresser has experienced this social oppression just as every single transexual has. You do not need a single other individual to know you are a cross dresser to experience transphobic oppression. Society is unfortunately full of examples of the oppression of dissimilar minorities. The oppression of gender variant people is just one of the more obvious. I do not identify as a cross dresser or as a male, heterosexual or otherwise but I certainly cross dress. I am proud of being a transgender person of color, but frankly, very few people are going to see me as transgender or as a person of color. This doesn't matter to me because I do not identify myself on the basis of whether other people think I am this or that. I identify myself on the basis of what I know I am.

Which brings me to the second point. People have many ways of identifying themselves, or defining themselves. The worst, most pernicious, cruelest, and most hateful way is by defining yourself as what you are not. People who do this should be regarded with care and compassion or just plain avoided if possible. They are damaged. They do not know that happiness comes from knowing who we are, not who we are not. Fortunately more and more people understand this and as MLK said the arc of history does bend towards justice. I am optimistic that people want to be happy, not fearful and miserable and that slowly, step by step, people come to the understanding that by accepting others as equal to ourselves we allow ourselves to accept ourselves as we are.

This here! Thank you for saying what I could not articulate.

Hug
Rita

[Ezekiel]

So if I wanted to go hang out with a group of gay men and they are not to happy about that does it mean I am not being accepted for who I am? No, it just means they are gay men who don't really want a trans woman as part of their group.

And you'll have to ask them why is it that they don't want a trans woman as part of their group, and see what they come out with.

This is perfectly comparable to saying that its ok that some group of white men don't want a black man with them. But you would say "No, it just means they are white men who don't really want a black man as part of their group"

I think you fell in your own trap there.

[Stephanie47]

I've been going to a counselor for individual counseling and also group counseling with a different counselor. The counseling has absolutely nothing to do with transgender issues. Over the past three to four years I've talked about my daughter's boyfriend, who became her fiance, who became her husband. Recently in our discussion I mentioned that a friend's husband wanted to meet our son-in-law so he could pass judgement on our son-in-law. He comes along with our friend because she married him. Otherwise, I would not choose him for a friend. Our son-in-law passed muster with this guy. I mentioned our son-in-law is African-American. She was surprised to find out from me after three plus years that he is an African-American. My retort was "Why did it matter? He is really a great guy!" My counselor is African.

Too many people have not looked past their own group and are really missing out on a world full of great people.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm very familiar the SoCal group she's referring to. As I was one of the first members.

The organizer of it may be the most accepting TS person I've ever met. She welcomes and encourages everyone interested in trans to join. TS, CD, gay, bi, gender queer, ladyboys, drag queens, and/or SO's friends and relatives of same r ALL welcome! She considers ALL of us/them her "sisters".:)

And, I'm one of the CD's that got into the pissing contest with the TS who made the comment that, "---don't wish to associate with non-questioning cis-males in makeup and women's clothing". She refused to call us CDs. As she apparently doesn't believe they exist. Only 2 kinds of dressers in her book. TS's and drag queen/cis males in women's clothes. By, "Non questioning", I believe she meant those of us that knew we were not trans. and were simply pretending or were fetish dressers or drag queens. A very myopic, black or white point of view. Obviously not a member of CD.com. We'd drive her NUTS here!:eek:

I pointed out that I personally knew CDs that were now transwomen in every way possible. She continued her insistence that they were TSs and not "cis-men in dresses". When I asked her how she could tell which of us there were "only" CD's and which ones would go on to become TS's? She left the group.:straightface:

Hey, Rita! Is that u?:daydreaming:

[Marcelle]

Very interesting thread and I all I can add to many of the comments is "welcome to the human race" and note that I wrote human (not man/woman/TS/TG whatever).

I truly believe some humans are not happy unless they can define a superior position over others. We (humans) have probably been doing it since we crawled out of the primordial ooze and began using our hands. I am sure somewhere in evolutionary history when Homosapiens and Neanderthals first came into contact the Homosapiens said, "sure you can hang with us but you'll never be one of us or truly understand us because we are different."

This same diatribe has been used for centuries to justify existence of one group, privilege of another and subjugation of another. Heck even where I work there is perceived hierarchy of soldiers based on what training you have done, which unit you belong, how many combat operations you have been on and this perceived list is endless. Note that perceived is the key word. In the end is utter nonsense. It is for this reason I absolutely detest labels or trying to pigeon hole people into neatly defined categories. We are all people regardless of personal leanings, none are better than others nor should one group claim supremacy over based on perceived difference or privilege.

Since joining a local support group I have met many TS gals who are marvelous, accepting and just all around wonderful human beings. Others not so much. I had one TS gal at a dinner tell me I had no right being out in women's clothing because I was not committed and I should give up my wife and life and join the cause and that I need to suffer to truly be TG . . . wow :eek:. I chose to smile and say thanks for the info then ignored her. On the other hand I have met many a CDer who think that TS gals don't belong in CD groups because they cannot understand us . . . again wow :eek:. So I choose to ignore them and carry on with my life.

In the end nobody knows an individual's story, what they have suffered for their peace of mind. All we can do is admit our differences. Difference is good . . . what a boring place the world would be with everyone being he same. However, we (humans) truly need to get over this desire to "one up" each other as it will truly be our downfall one day.

Hugs

Isha

[jaleecd]

maybe sometimes the effort to correct one's birthdefect seems to be unfairly greater that what a CDer has to go through to present Femme, and resentment rises. The ones who have to put everything in the pot to become the woman that means literal life to Her, feels that its just not fair!!! that the CDers dip a toe into the femme side of Life, risking outing and embaressment, not the life altering events, pain and surgery needed to become the Woman that allows Her to live.The post feeling is a little resentment because the difference in cost and life altering events separating their Femme experiences. I don't have dog in this fight, but feel deeply for for anyone who is invested in either life experience..... Peace and Hugs to all.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I can see why some quite a lot as it is that trans people look down on dresser's because one group are playing at dressup. and the other's are looking at hormones and surgerys, so theres a difference to start with with out going into all the other detail.

Now then trans and theres many again look down on us who are intersexed females , iv seen and expreanced rejection been put down not understood, is it we have other issues that are different some issues may be the same yet that does not come into it we are different and thats it, and one close intersexed friend was told we dont wont you here at our meeting so bugger off and dont come back, now i happen to know all of those people in that group, so i all so left.

and i have talked at length about these issues, with a few trans people and they have told me they do not understand us, i mean am i surprised, well no and why should i be our bodys are different we think differently and are in many or most aspects not all of us of cause are female im only talking about my side of this . female now the male side is different again,

Now i wont say i totaly understand men , or trans people or why men wont to dress as us or like women. yet i have no issue i accept people as they are , and as we say till proved other wise, i dont treat men as sisters because they are not ,

at a meeting or here or other forums ill use the name given that you use on the forum or at a meeting though many do tell me thier real name in real life as you use mine of noeleena, = real = any way you all know that,

With the ? in hand id say theres more going on that we wont know about or so the person may have some issues, or theres more to it,

I have worked with some trans and dresser's and helped them over time on ways to be accepted into main stream socity, so i am aware of the issuses faced by them plus others of cause, remember each personis different in attitude and how they see things ether by learning or how they were brought up or miss informed.

...noeleena...

[Caden Lane]

I actually resent the term dress up. There is far more to it than that for a great many of us. I know it is for me. Dress up infers that it's merely superficial and has no bearing on us emotionally or psychologically.

[samantha rogers]

This may or may not be related, but take it as you will...I spent most of my life as a professional actor and worked in theatres all over the country as well as in Film and TV. I worked with many famous people (no, I am not ), and found almost always that the very best at their craft were universally the nicest warmest, most compassionate, caring and accepting people you would ever want to meet. Whereas, the successful but not so talented (the two things do not always go hand in hand) were frequently insecure, jealous, spiteful and always looking for artificial ways to puff up their self esteem. I always paid attention and tried to learn from the first group.
Again, this is not about anyone in particular, just about human nature. The more you are able to love and nurture yourself, the more compassion and support and understanding you can extend to others. Right?

[Princess Grandpa]

Hi Sherry. Yes it's me. *hug*

Paula I truly appreciate your efforts to make me feel better. Frankly this woman's non acceptance of those like me doesn't matter at all. My happiness level continues unscathed and my sel esteem still in tact. Your concern for me touches my heart. Thank You!

Ezekiel I couldn't agree more! That's exactly what it's like.

Isha I suppose you may be right and that is just human nature. If that's true we can certainly lean to be more than we are. There are very few in my life that are judgemental like that.

In the end nobody is claiming CD,s and TS are the same. While there may be similarities we all have unique roads to travel. My contention is we don't have to be the same to be accepted. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. If you look down on others for being different you are exactly the same as those who persecute you and you deserve all the misery and unpleasantness you experience!

Hug
Rita

[sometimes_miss]

BTW, the reason the TS complained about a CD at the meeting is because she looks down on the CDs. Because TSs are viewed as further up in the hierarchy than CDs.

Oh wait - who is responsible for setting up the hierarchies in the world. Oh right - MEN. Hey, virtually every TS was socialized as a man to some point in their life. A lot of us never unlearn how to stop jockeying and posturing for position, even when it makes no difference. In other words - that girl needed to quit acting like a man would've.
And that's exactly why I have only one male friend, the rest are female. I got sick of being in constant competition with other guys, it's always who's better, who's smarter, who makes more money, who screws more women, who's dick is bigger, ah that's it: the 'bigger dick' theory of social interaction. And I'd seen it on the newsgroups with discussions between the different types of members all the time.
I can't tell you how many gay people commented to me that I was really gay but simply in denial. Or the TS folks that felt the same way. All in an effort to preach that their way was the 'best' way, the only 'true' way. I've been reading this type of forum now for what, 20 years? And nothing has changed. I don't think it ever will. It's the nature of males to be competitive, and testosterone pushes us to be that way, whether we dress as girls or not, the effect on the brain is the same. Then you have the angry TS group who are as pissed off as any GG could be feeding the flames too. I've come to believe that it's human nature to be this rotten, and only a few percentages of the population ever get past feeling what their genetics drive them towards.

[Chickhe]

It could be a case of ignorance. Sort of like a kid who was spanked too much growing up and they do the same to their child. It takes a long time to show people a better way. Just remind her that she started out at some basic level too and she was accepted. I think it is probably a lack of self acceptance, she doesn't want people to accociate her with something that is less refined.

[PaulaQ]

@Rita - there really are a lot of us TS folks who love and accept everybody. The big meetup group here has CDs, TS, GQ.