First "Mean Girl" Experience

[steph1964]

Almost every girl you ask will tell you of a time in junior high, high school or college when a friend suddenly turned on them for no apparent reason. I just got to experience that first hand and it devastated me, mostly because it came out of nowhere. In order to keep this a reasonable length I'll give a brief description of what happened. But keep in mind that I'm leaving a lot of details out.

I was accepted into a group of gg friends in July and have since become close with many of them. Most of my social life includes one or more of the group. One of the girls, Jill (not her real name), was very friendly to me. She would text me all the time, she was very supportive, and we would do a lot of social things together. Most of the time she would text me first and after a while we became pretty close, or so I thought.

About a month ago Jill's interactions with me changed. She stopped texting me and if I texted her she would only reply with a few words. When we went out in a group she seemed to ignore me. It wasn't as obvious at first and I was thinking she could be busy or it may be my imagination. But as the month went on her demeanor with me got worse until the last couple of times when she was very bitchy. I noticed that she hadn't changed how she interacted with anyone else so I decided that I must have done something wrong.

After Jill was very rude last week I finally asked a mutual friend if she knew why Jill was mad at me, stating that I must have done something to cause this. After all Jill has been such a good friend it must be me. The friend said that she didn't know.

On Monday night I decided to send Jill an email which consisted of me apologizing for whatever I did. I had wracked my brain but had no idea what it was. I was in shock when I got the reply.

Jill proceed to tell me that she had distanced herself from me because my idea of friendship is different than hers, she'd doesn't like drama or negativity, I was talking about her and twisting things around... The list went on and on and was very hurtful. I was devastated. I hadn't done the things she claimed and it hurt that she would think that of me. I replied with another apology saying that I didn't realize or intend to hurt her and that was it.

I couldn't believe how depressed I was over it. So much so that I didn't sleep and took the next day off work, most of it spent crying. I made an appointment with my counselor and saw her the next day (yesterday).

I read my emails and Jill's email to my counselor and was ready to start explaining that what Jill said didn't happen. But as I started to explain my counselor stopped me and said that I had been the victim of a "mean girl". She also used the professional term but I can't remember what it was. She went on to explain that there were several things in Jill's email that were very evident of this. My assumption that we were close was true, but that was just while Jill was getting what she needed out of the relationship. People like her don't have equal friendships so as soon as the friendship gets to where they have to reciprocate they end it. My counselor called this a typical emotional abuse situation. Jill didn't just tell me a month ago that she needed more space. Instead she shunned me and eventually acted as though she was mad at me. The desired affect is that I feel that I must have done something wrong to cause her to treat me this way. It worked. Then when I take the bait and contact her to apologize she let's me have it with all the reasons why she can't be my friend. My counselor said that it doesn't have to be true just close enough that I believe she feels that way. My counselor said that there are hundreds of women out there like this and most ggs learn to recognize it from when they are hurt at a young age. My problem is that I'm naive because I haven't had the luxury of learning to be a female when I was young. She said that Jill is probably the queen bee of the group and this is not the first time she has done this. I had previously heard that she has ended other friendships but never considered why. My counselor also told me that it is very devastating, as much so as breaking a relationship because it usually takes you by surprise.

My counselor was lot more detailed in explaining why she knew this to be the case but that is too much for this post. I think my counselor is great but I have never seen her so exact and detailed as she was with explaining what had happened. But she does have a lot of experience handling emotional abuse cases.

I'm still sad but I feel a lot better now that I have an idea what happened.

[Dawn cd]

This is a very sad experience. My question is: Is this a phenomenon only among women? Are there "mean guys" as well? In my many years in the male world, I've never experienced it. But why women only?

[kimdl93]

Wow, what a learning experience, Steph! My wife talks about mean girls too...something very controlling I their behavior. Trouble is, we are I'll prepared to know who these people are when they befriend us.

[steph1964]

Yes we are in a way more vulnerable because we want to have gg friends so badly that we overlook the signs that other ggs recognize. That along with our social inexperience makes us very susceptible.

[LeaP]

Are there "mean guys" as well?

Think dominance and power struggle and you'll have your answer.

[Annaliese]

WOW I have heard my wife, and daughter, and even my granddaughters talk about it mean girls. I know how up set they were over it. When I was younger, if there was a fight, a back eye, have a beer and it over. I can see where it would have devastated you, there are thing that go way beyond just getting dressed up that we don't have a clue about. You have a good counselor to go into that kind of detail. Good luck and thanks for sharing.

[kimdl93]

I really need to know those signs...maybe your therapist could make a list.

[Shy_Confusion]

This is a very sad experience. My question is: Is this a phenomenon only among women? Are there "mean guys" as well? In my many years in the make world, I've never experienced it. But why women only?

Oh definitely.
Steph1964's story resounds to me with the word "user". Someone that uses other people to get what they want, and then discards them when they're done.
I've been the victim of it from a couple of other guys, and I've seen girls do it to each other and to men. I can spot it right away usually now, because of experiencing it.
But the symptoms are the same: constant contact, an illusion of "sharing" (personal details about themselves), a few meaningless gestures, and then they decide you can't provide them anything and trash talk you behind your back. Or create some illusion in their head you did them wrong.
It's weird, but it happens.

[Angela Campbell]

Whe I was young I knew boys who did it too.....usually someone got beat up though instead of just shunned and treated mean. With men it is different, the female socialization is centered on being a part of the group while male socialization is centered with being the leader of a group.

[Jorja]

Welcome to womanhood, Steph. From your account, it sounds like the more she got to know you the more she realized you were going to be serious competition for her. That is usually when the claws come out. We are in a bad position because we do not read the signs very well. We know when a guy is getting upset with us. You can read it on his face like a bad book. So live and learn. Continue to be gracious towards her but keep your distance.

[steph1964]

I didn't read the signs at all. It's embarrassing that I was so oblivious to it happening since we got on so well. We are still part of the same group so I need to continue to be gracious if I'm going to continue to be friends with the others. But I will definitely keep my distance.

[ReineD]

"Mean girls"? I'm sorry but I've got to say something. The idea that women are a bunch of green-eyed monsters who shoot each other down at the slightest whim is an overly used stereotype that is more appropriate for the middle school age group.

Yes, there are both adult men and adult women who exhibit some form of emotionally immature behavior no matter what this looks like (beating someone up or not talking to them), but to paint the female gender with a broad brush like that by making it seem as if the behavior is commonplace frankly is rather offensive. IMO.

Back to your situation Steph, the thing to have done was to not let it fester for so long. If it ever happens again, get to her one-on-one in the parking lot if you have to, and ask directly if you are misunderstanding her signals, or if there is something that she is upset about. Do not apologize unless you discover that you are guilty of having offended anyone. Misunderstandings do occur, but it makes no sense to take responsibility for someone else's bad behavior.

How would you have dealt with something like this before your transition?

It's just like in a man's world. People will push your buttons only if you let them.

[steph1964]

No one from what I can tell has painted all females with a broad brush saying that they are all like this. But a lot of females fall victim to this usually in an earlier stage of life. Per my female counselor. And I consider myself part of the female gender.

Yes my counselor said that I shouldn't have apologized but rather just asked her what was going on. But she wasn't being overt until the email. I'm still new to this.

[Badtranny]

I'm with RD (per usual)

I can't even imagine being involved in something like this. You seem very sweet Steph, but you're not a 13 year old girl so quit acting like one. You have faced much more emotionally demanding situations in your life than this, and you need to get your head straight or you're destined for this same thing to happen over and over again. Transition doesn't change who you are (a cop), it simply frees you from pretense. If a chick you hang out with gets bitchy, just give it right back to her.

I will never understand people who simply insist on giving away all of their power. If one of my friends (actual real personal friend) told me they stayed home from work because some bitch was mean to them, I would seriously tell them to get a grip.

[steph1964]

If I were to hear that before it happened I probably would have thought the same thing. But it did happen and it did bother me that it affected me so much. Your correct I have faced a lot of emotionally demanding situations and on the outside I'm very strong. Like most of us I have brushed off the insults, comments etc. of others but when the person is a major part of your small support system it hurts. You are likely a lot more emotionally grounded than me and have gone a long way. I'm trying but not there yet.

[Launa]

What a bitch! Worst thing you can do is apologize to this lady, when someone treats another person this way and the innocent one says I'm sorry, then they've got you by the short and curlies. Then the real bully comes out and they will pick, pick, pick on you. Don't let it happen again.

[Suzanne F]

I agree with Reine that there are also mean men. However, it does seem the way this transpired is more common around women. Men seem to be more direct about not liking someone. Sure Stephanie has faced tougher situations. In my case since coming out into the world as Suzanne my reactions are not always what they were as a man. For instance when I was aggressively hit on by an older man a few months ago I panicked. I have been hit on by men as a man all my life. I never felt like I wasn't in control. But this time I was shook up. He wouldn't take no for an answer! I have made it through jungle school in the US Army, yet I cried when telling my wife about the incident. So yes Stephanie you better be tougher next time but that's how we learn.
Hugs
Suzanne

[ReineD]

Maybe it's a question of getting used to the effects of estrogen? I think I remember reading that it can take some time (years maybe?) for emotions to stabilize.

I don't think it's a question of GGs learning things in childhood that transwomen learn later. Young girls witness boys beating each other up just as young boys witness girls being more passive about it. I personally have not had experiences with "mean girls". But I do know to not let someone's bitchy behavior ruin my day.

Dealing with people who lack emotional maturity, whether they are male or female, is something that we all learn as we age. I don't see it as a gendered thing. To reverse the situation, I know how to handle myself when faced with a belligerent man, even though I haven't been socialized as a male. I can't fight him physically, but I can hold my ground and define my boundaries.

[Persephone]

Been there and had it happen, Steph, and in almost the exact same way. I go with Jorja on this one, she's got it pegged. In a small group her advice is golden on this one, "Continue to be gracious towards her but keep your distance." I woud add "Smile, but watch your back." In guyworld the punch in the face followed by a beer together makes it pretty much go away, in girlworld it is pretty much forever.

Sorry Reine, but simply the fact that we come to the party late, and maybe that we didn't start out with the all the parts and hormones and childhood, does make it different. We don't see the subtleties that you would see automatically, so we make mistakes you would never make. Maybe you've avoided the mean girls in your life because your radar was better from the beginning and so you don't fall into the traps? We're very often naive and hungry for acceptance and so we're easy pickin's.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[steph1964]

I don't think it's a question of GGs learning things in childhood that transwomen learn later. Young girls witness boys beating each other up just as young boys witness girls being more passive about it. I personally have not had experiences with "mean girls". But I do know to not let someone's bitchy behavior ruin my day.

Dealing with people who lack emotional maturity, whether they are male or female, is something that we all learn as we age. I don't see it as a gendered thing. To reverse the situation, I know how to handle myself when faced with a belligerent man, even though I haven't been socialized as a male. I can't fight him physically, but I can hold my ground and define my boundaries.

Sorry Reine but I have to disagree. This is the complete opposite of what my counselor said and contradictory to what I've found from searching and from experience. Males are raised to use direct aggression while females use indirect aggression. It's for different survival strategies. As transsexuals we have learned the direct aggression but are not skilled to deal with the indirect aggression. Obviously this is a general statement but has been studied.

Here is one of many explanations I found.

http://m.medicaldaily.com/why-are-women-passive-aggressive-study-suggests-it-might-be-avoid-physical-harm-261128

[kittypw GG]

"Mean girls"? I'm sorry but I've got to say something. The idea that women are a bunch of green-eyed monsters who shoot each other down at the slightest whim is an overly used stereotype that is more appropriate for the middle school age group.

Yes, there are both adult men and adult women who exhibit some form of emotionally immature behavior no matter what this looks like (beating someone up or not talking to them), but to paint the female gender with a broad brush like that by making it seem as if the behavior is commonplace frankly is rather offensive. IMO.

.

Thank you Reine, I was offended by this as well.

Steph, all relationships are complicated and take time to develop. It takes me years to develop trust with a friend, man or women. She is what my mother always called a fair weather friend. Just move on and save your energy for people of quality.

[Angela Campbell]

Yes I agree too. I am very careful about who I allow to be close to me. I am friendly to most but to really get into my inner circle takes a long time. At the first sign of someone acting the way you described - short messages, or no texts, distancing...ignoring me in a group - I would notice right away and I would also distance myself the same way. No rudeness of course, but if she acted like she was ignoring me I would spend my time with others until she made moves to be more friendly.

[steph1964]

"Mean girl" was my counselor's words not mine. She also used a clinical term.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Steph, I have a close friend doing this to me now. I'm in my thirties and so is she, yet she dumps friends like yesterday's teenage trash. I'm not sure if this is a 'mean girl' but she's definitely a psycho girl. I think maybe they're one and the same and like any sane woman, I've quit having her as a friend. I have others so I don't need her. You need to do the same. Stop worrying if everyone likes you and just appreciate those who do :)

[noeleena]

Hi.

We are not all the same we dont all function in the same way and for some one to say oh just get over it, or take a pill is how some men deal with an issue like this again men dont understand us, quite likely never will ,

im very sensitive very loveing and forgiveing im not a hard nosed git, or a hard woman, all my life , iv had detail from others , and in many case's i'v backed away and writen it off,
as oh well men or women just the way these people are, naive yes and have been in many respects,

Can i say dont harden your heart dont get hard because of detail like this get wise see things with open eye's and ear's and understand we do have to.... sad to say ....see things that are not of us,
Why are some people like this theres a lot of reasons just remember we dont have to be like them or become them

Bad tranny,

no we dont have to be like youv said some of us have had issues and major ones to go through and not just about our differences with body or mind .

Ill put it this way i'v been in the firing line of some very hurtfull abuse and in front of quite a few people my women friends stepped in between the guy and myself, i was shocked and was ready to leave the group i took a week going over things and talked with Jos about it and she said dont leave, just carry on , i was going to leave, so i stayed on because i was called on to help out in another matter totaly unrelated things changed with the guy, and he accepted me in a totaly different way, , months later,

What im saying yes it was hurtfull and yes i would have gone, im pleased i stayed and as it is every thing that has transpired has been for the good over all

sometimes we have to go through hurtfull things just look at it this way you may for a time have lost a friendship months maybe years youll reap some good in the end so dont open up your gunnary and open fire and walk away. you may / will regret it and then it'll hurt you again,

...noeleena...

[Kathryn Martin]

Like Reine I am somewhat disturbed by the notion that what happened to you is somehow a logical extension of being female and having been raised as female. There is no question what you experienced was difficult emotionally. But your description of the circumstances do feel a little like high school and express an emotional immaturity both on Jill's part and your part (sorry to say this).

I agree with you that survival strategies for women are very different from how we were conditioned growing up as men. But that does not mean that men are not mean and do not work with exclusionary strategies and ostracizing others within the group that they are a part of. Just think back to your school days and get a sense on how this worked there. Not every negative encounter with another man ends in a fight, a bloody nose and a beer afterwards. These are cliches and such an analysis only goes so far and then it breaks down. What happened to you was as immature and ridiculous as the bop on the nose and beer.

One of the subtext things I picked up in your description (because you picked it as sufficiently important to specifically mention) was this: "...she'd doesn't like drama or negativity..." and I wonder what was behind this comment. We tend to become quite dramatic and often very negative as a result of the struggles we encounter leading up to transition and beyond. And in the first years following transition we tend to not want to let go of this because it provided some structure to our struggle. But this is something that can be very adverse to integrating into womanhood.

That does not take anything away from your heartache resulting from it though. I am concerned though that your counselors answer was very glib, shifting blame and thereby closing the door on a meaningful working through what had happened to you.

I am sorry ......

[Angela Campbell]

Just think back to your school days and get a sense on how this worked there. Not every negative encounter with another man ends in a fight, a bloody nose and a beer afterwards. These are cliches and such an analysis only goes so far and then it breaks down.

..


Uhhhh......in south Georgia it did 9 out of 10 times. Then again it starts with the beer part first sometimes. (why I don't drink)

[rachael.davis]

A friend of mine (GG) recommended Deborah Tannen's "You Just Don't Understand, Men and Women in conversation". It's been a huge help to me in sorting through a number of issues
Your Mileage May Vary

[Kathryn Martin]

Angela, I wonder if south Georgia is the paradigm of modern male behavior though. In the stereotypical North American caveman tradition it appears that the worst is painted as the usual when it fact is is a stereotype. I got beaten up by guys because I was a sissy, there was no beer or manly reconciliation. The realization that I was substantially inferior strength wise, I could not run fast enough and could not throw a ball worth anything meant that I had to develop different survival strategies. If you live in a world in which you would lose any violent encounter putting you at substantial risk a black eye and a beer do nothing for you and in fact put you at substantial risk. I recently read a blog post by a woman, a strong woman, who realized through horsing around with her boyfriend that she could always be subdued by him, which created a real risk no matter how much he loved her. You contemplate that for a moment.

Women share, socialize and build a network of mutual support. This exposes us to dangers as well and very much related to the exclusion from sharing and support. I believe with age though what Stephie described becomes immature school yard behavior because the benefits of exclusionary behavior lose any value and the detrimental aspects become quite stark to the person behaving in this way. And in this context I believe that Reine and Kitty properly called this as being too wide a brush.

[Amy A]

I'm a bit surprised that a counsellor would come out with such a definitive summary of someone's actions and personality when she's never met the person and has only your account of the circumstances to go on. That's not to dismiss or call into question your version of events or the pain this has caused you, but I totally agree with Kathryn when she said that your counsellor effectively put an end for any opportunity to explore the issue.

Also this idea that men never use these methods of exclusion and can solve their problems with a fight and a beer is frankly ridiculous and ignores the truth of male social groups and the diversity of personality. Perhaps this type of behaviour is more to do with what type of person this former friend is rather than her gender.

Every time you allow someone close you are putting yourself at risk of being hurt. Next time someone starts acting strange towards you either ignore them or call them out on it earlier. If one of my close friends (male or female) started acting that way towards me, I'd ask them what the matter was pretty quickly. If they haven't got the maturity to explain the issue with honesty then they aren't worthy of any more time or attention.

Hope you feel better about this soon.

[KellyJameson]

There are predatory women just as there are predatory men and usually there is a narcissistic, sociopathic or psychopathic element to their interactions with others.

Forget about giving "being nice" value in choosing your friends and look for qualties like humility, empathy, compassion, truthfulness, honesty,transparency matched with respect for personal boundaries, self respect where there is an absence of self destructive behavior.

You may want to read up on the character traits of "self actualized people" Here is a link ...

http://www.selfcounseling.com/help/personalsuccess/selfactualization.html

I have noticed that some who transition think GG's are "superior to them" so in a sense they are saying that they are "inferior women"

Look into your heart and see if you are intimidated by GG's because on some level you feel "inferior". It is always a mistake to elevate others above you or yourself above them for "any reason not related to respect for life as a statement of value"

If so you will be handing an unhealthy amount of power over your life to those who may not deserve it and who may abuse it.

[jaleecd]

I have seen the emotional blackmail used by G.G.'s against both women and men. It is subtle, but real scenerios used to gain the moral highground wheather merited or not. Most males are not as clever as the ladys in using these subtle stratigies. I am often awed at the thought and planning involved in these dramas. I also was oblivious to what was happening while i was in middle of the event. Not a clue, until I was shown what had gone on. You feel so out of it. for not seeing or believing that something like that was planed or on purpose.

[Rianna Humble]

Let's try to get this thread back on track. We were discussing a particular incident with the behaviour of one person being described by the therapist as being that of a "mean girl".

We were not discussing whether all women are the same as that person, neither were we discussing whether all men are physically aggressive or not.

You may or may not have a valid point about whether the therapist should have discussed underlying issues in more detail, but we don't know because we were not party to the session.

[Connie D50]

My counselor said that there are hundreds of women out there like this and most ggs learn to recognize it from when they are hurt at a young age. My problem is that I'm naive because I haven't had the luxury of learning to be a female when I was young.

Steph this is the line that I think sums it up best. There should be a book that can catches us up on all those things we missed not growing up with that luxury. However think how lucky you are for getting to see it now, it hurts like a lot of lifes lessons. But you better for it now. :-) Connie

[sandra-leigh]

Discussions about how people usually learn to detect and protect themselves from such people miss a crucial point: a lot of us did not have "usual" childhoods.

[Chickhe]

The main issue...you might have to interact with this person again. How do you handle that?

[Lori Kurtz]

Wow. Be grateful for your counselor. You're handling this as well as you possibly could.

[Janelle_C]

Steph I know how much it hurts the first time some close to you hurts you. I had a very close friend not invite me to a all women's luncheon that I knew every one there. I was very emotional for a couple of days, but what I came to peace with is that this is her struggles not mine. I'm glad you have someone to talk to about this.

[Nicole Erin]

The main issue...you might have to interact with this person again. How do you handle that?

That is easy - be polite when the OP must interact but otherwise try not to associate with the "mean girl".

It is better to have male friends anyways. Just because we are living as women does not mean we have to kiss GG ass.