Polyamorous Relationships? TS Only, Please

[Ann Louise]

I think that a great many of us have had to struggle through revising our relationships with our former partners ("wives," "spouses." "SO's," whatever) as we've progressed through our transitions, and for the fortunate ones among us, have successfully weathered the storms of gatekeepers, health-keepers, well-wishers and snarks who have questioned, examined, praised, criticised and provided unsolicited and cruel advice on just what exactly they'd do with our lives if we were to live like they do.

But has anyone developed a truly polyamorous (please, not "polygamous") relationship with one or more others, with the full consent of all concerned? I am talking about love, intimacy, emotional closeness, sweet interludes, and yes, of course, sex if it comes to that, but that physical act is quite secondary to all the rest. This is not "group marriage," but an open loving intimate relationship where all concerned spend as little or as much time together or apart, as they wish, With The Full Consent And Agreement Of All Concerned. No sneaking, no lying, no half truths.

Since this is an immediate concern of mine I would appreciate TS respondents experience and wisdom only, please,

Thank you all very much,

Ann

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Why Ann would you consider this a "TS" issue??

[KellyJameson]

Gender and the body are linked just as sex and the body are but only in different ways.

Gender as identity, sex and the body are each separately affected by what affects the other.

What affects the "body" affects gender identity and sex and what affects "gender identity" affects sex and the body and what affects "sex" affects gender identity and the body

It is a trinity of sorts.

Change one and you change the other two and because we are social creatures this must than affect us and others "socially" so when sex is socially experienced it is affected by this "trinity" of relationships and effects within ourselves.

You can have what you are looking for but only with others of your own "kind" who live on the same "spiritual plane" as you do and because you are "more unique" than others by being transsexual you will have to make more effort to find these people.

The world must become your backyard.

[Ann Louise]

Why Ann would you consider this a "TS" issue??

I posted something remotely similar many months ago and was roundly called a selfish b#%+ by a crossdresser here. Never again. I think that we TS girls meet these issues in the most upfront and direct way when we leave our false gender behind and either find a way to find a fresh emotional base, reinvigorate the old one, or do simply nothing at all about it. Thank you for asking dear. Heartfelt thanks.

[Rachel Smith]

I would have to respond yes I have. My to friends Rick and Michelle, whom I live with, have a very intimate relationship between the 3 of us, without the sex part. That is due to my lack of desire of sex of any kind since transition. We do however each spend pretty much equal time with with the others involved as well as doing things together. We all enjoy our lives but at times as with any relationship even monogamous ones there are struggles at times but we all get together and discuss whatever is bothering someone.

I am not sure if that's the kind of relationship you are speaking of but that is what we have.

Hugs
Rachel

[Jorja]

Oh, so that is what that is called ;). Really, I have no experience with this type of relationship. I am and always have been a one at a time type of girl.

[Megan Thomas]

I would never have that type of relationship, regardless of my *T* status. My gender is frankly irrelevant. I believe and practice monogamous commitment to one person to the exclusion of all others. Why would my gender be involved?

[sandra-leigh]

I am currently on the outer edge of polyamory. I know the leader of the local poly support group, and I know some of the members, I have attended one unofficial poly event, and I have been invited to the monthly poly discussion group.

Will I "go through with it"? I don't know, it is too early yet to say. What I can say is that I stick to my agreements, whatever they are. I do not know, however, whether I will ever get to the point of saying that I will only accept poly relationships.

I had noticed and had confirmed with my gender therapist that there is an fair correlation non-traditional gender and between poly. The explanation I had come up with for that was approximately:

After going through all the struggles about one major social construct, questioning the interplay of social forces and one's needs and desires, and deciding that one can go against society on something major, then a person of self-insight might start questioning what other aspects of society are not "necessary" or "useful" to them and that they might be willing to go against society on. Questioning relationship structures and needs is not a big extension from that.

I know that I was already questioning what I needed from relationships as part of my consideration of whether I was prepared to "pay the price" of transitioning. In deciding whether to go ahead with HRT, I specifically considered the role of sex in my life, and the role of romantic relationships in my life, and made the very conscious decision that I was prepared to permanently lose both if necessary. The potential for the loss of sex, love, and biological children were at the very top of my "Against" list, and there really wasn't anything else close. And having questioned those things so closely and been prepared to have them leave my life, I find I am free to reconsider the way in which I reintroduce them in to my life.

[Angela Campbell]

Shoot...I can't handle a relationship with one person...more than one is way beyond my abilities

[DeeDee1974]

I guess the answer for me would be somewhat. My ex-wife was very supportive of my transition. To this day she is one of the closest friends I have. We tried very hard to make our marriage work. Individual and couples therapy, scheduling time for intimacy just to try and stay connected, but in the end sex was just a little awkward between us. I remember the last time we attempted to have sex, things weren't going well and my ex-wife just stops looks at me and says "I think we both need a man". We just laid there naked and laughing for about 20 minutes.

We were still married when I met Frank. A nice older man who befriended me on the bus. It started with a nice conversation one day. Then he would save a seat for me everyday. We would talk. The conversation was real and easy. I told my wife about him. Then he got off at my stop and walked my home. When we were to my place he asked me to dinner. I checked with my wife and she thought I should go. We had a great time. We held hands walking home. Then we went out again and again. Dates ended with kisses, then full on make out sessions. It had been three months so of course we went all the way. I never felt like this before. I was in love with Frank, but I still loved Julie too. Just a different kind of love. So Julie and I decided to get divorced, but stayed great friends. Last summer I won an award at work and wanted both of the there. It was great and awkward.

[Ann Louise]

I would never have that type of relationship, regardless of my *T* status. My gender is frankly irrelevant. I believe and practice monogamous commitment to one person to the exclusion of all others. Why would my gender be involved?

With all respect Megan, I'm a transsexual (gendered) lesbian (sexual), By consensual, mutual agreement I am no longer monogamous, and given much thought, and yes, anguish,to formulating my ethical approach to this (ancient form of human relationship), am very proud of it, and my partner, too.

But please keep in mind what I said earlier... All parties are involved, all consenting adults, all together or not as preference dictates, and absolutely no sneaking, and no lying... No Exceptions. Not monogamous dear, but very loving and honest. And again, This Is Not An "Open Marriage," nor a Polygamous marriage, either (wiki does a good basis explanation).

My former gender enters in because when I was under the influence of male hormones my thinking processes were profoundly different. Were not yours? Rather than my base desires taking the forefront, now I desire love, compassion, intimacy, fun and new life. Sex is Last, and minor in the mix. I would never presume to criticize or suggest what might be a proper way for you to conduct your intimate relationships with those that you love, or question why you have made the choices you clearly state you have made. With all good wishes, Ann

[Lilo]

I also dont see how this relates to the TS experience we all share. I cant imagine this myself at all and dont see how it relates to a gender transition. I can see how a case like Dee Dee described can arise as sexuality evolves due to hormonal or social changes. However, even she seems to have eventually 'transitioned' to a different relationship. Similar cases could be imagined with all gender permutations.

[Michelle789]

I agree with Lilo and Kaitlyn, I don't see how being TS would make you polyamorous or polygamous. Just because we're considered to be taboo by society does not mean that we automatically gravitate to relationships that are considered taboo.

I feel like you're entitled to have whatever relationship you want, but I just don't see a connection between polyamory and being trans, just as I don't see how cis-people are automatically monogamous - they're not.

Personally I would get jealous easily to have more than one partner, plus I have Venus in Cancer (so does my mom), which means that I'm naturally inclined towards monogamy and female role. Ah, this explains why I ran away from marriage, Venus in Cancer (or any water sign) probably does a poor job at pretending to be a man in a relationship.

[PaulaQ]

I think this is relevant for a couple of reasons:
1. Transgender women have actually been very active in the world of polyamorous relationships. I can't speak from personal experience - but I have a friend who's trans and in a relationship with two other trans women. She told me that in her case, she formed her primary relationship very quickly - apparently the draw between trans lesbians is kind of powerful - but felt like she'd never really gotten to date. So she formed a relationship with another trans woman she knew. They date. Her partner is fine with it, and everyone is informed and consenting. She tells me "what's weird about it is that it's not weird at all." So there you have it. Jealousy, so far, doesn't seem to be an issue for them.

2. I can well imagine that our marital relationships from our male lives may make some of us prone to these types of relationships. For example, I'd told my wife - if she'd stayed with me - that I'd have been fine with her having a relationship with a man sometimes, because I knew she'd have needs I couldn't meet as I transitioned. She didn't like this offer much - but I could certainly see something like that working out for a couple who stayed together for purpose of raising children, but who were possibly no longer sexually compatible because one partner transitioned. So they might live as a family, but have different sexual partners that both were aware of.

These seem like fairly plausible, and even kind of likely scenarios to me. They aren't very traditional, but then not much about transition is. Does kinda shoot down any chance you have of passing as heteronormative I guess - at least if you are out about your relationships...

[Ann Louise]

Lilo and Michelle -

1. my former wife, now partner, were and sometimes still are on the verge of divorce because of my transition because I am firmly, irrevocably TS (no body hair left, no musculature, complete FFS, a breast augmentation, and SRS scheduled in 11 months).

2. I am no longer a male, mentally or physically. The male that promised her a life of commitment, the one she married is irrevocably gone. I willfully destroyed "him." That is because I am TS.

3. I love my partner, and don't want to lose her, but we don't have sex anymore, and are no where nearly as close as we used to be. If you are with yours, good for you. You are fortunate. Many many of us are not. She does not want sex with a TS. Not me necessarily, not really liking the lesbian idea, and certainly has difficulty with sex with a TS.

4. Because of the foregoing we often, frankly and lovingly discuss divorce, as many many TS women on this board have done, are in the process of doing, or are seriously contemplating. That is because either they are TS, or their partners do not want a life with a TS woman. Many girls here have expressed that their former spouses simply want a man in their life, not a TS woman.

5 I am a living, breathing, loving person who still has emotional, sexual needs, but given I am 60 years old, cannot and will not likely attempt to engage in the intensity and fervor of dating that a younger person might. Gosh, I don't even drink. I am simply a TS woman looking for as many, and as high-quality emotional, intimate connections as I possibly can have in whatever years I have remaining in my life.

6. I have been fortunate to encounter and become befriended by a loving community of polyamorous lesbians. They accept me for the woman that I have become. They know I am TS because I have told them so, clearly, outright. I have been invited to their functions, held and treated with love and respect, and feel like I have perhaps found a collection of genetic woman who are regarding me as the genetic woman that I should have been born as. They know my partner, they accept her. We are friends and may be lovers - or not.

Maybe that does not clarify this to your satisfaction, but in my personal case it is as clear as the hand before my face. I am a TS woman being accepted by CIS-gendered lesbian woman who know I am a pre-op TS girl, and love and care for me none the less.

[mikiSJ]

Ann Louise

While I do not have any issues with the type of relationship you want, among consenting adults, that is not for me and I think it wold be difficult to keep all of the pieces together given the different personalities and needs of each of the partnership.

Between marriages, I was simultaneously dating three women and intimate with all three. Two of them knew about the others and I ended up marrying one of them. But to think that I could have gotten all four of us into a consenting poly-amorous partnership would be folly.

[Lilo]

Ann
This is not about questioning your resolve or TS nature at all. My point was that such a relationship is not unique to TS people (consider your lesbian friends for example). I guess my issue with this is that as TS people we are already judged as 'strange', 'non-conforming', etc... If this type of relationship is seen as common or 'the norm' amongst us then we will be associated with this. I am just postulating that this should not be seen as a TS topic because ANY person in a troubled relationship could follow this path. I guess I am fearful of such a relationship, which I personally do not believe in, would be associated to this community. It may be that some TS enter into it, but an equal or larger number of cis people do so too.

[LeaP]

That a trans woman leaving male life, thinking, emotions, and the expectations of the male side of relationships might cause everyone in a relationship to revisit things, I have no doubt (and am living). After all, that's what all the divorces among TS are about. I also accept that things within and intrinsic which have been suppressed may emerge and undermine the assumptions on which a relationship is rooted. Transition is a pretty clear case of relationship foundations changing. This is the extent of TS content here.

Nonetheless, I have trouble with the idea of consent in changed circumstances like this. What passes for consent from the POV of the one who wishes to change things up may look a whole lot more like hard choice to the counterparty. People "consent" to all kinds of things, but it's rarely a pure experience. That may play even greater with age, when one of the parties sees few to no alternatives. I wonder how many would return to a marriage with such radically changed assumptions if they were first divorced and safe?

Beyond that, there are a few concepts being undermined here (not intentionally, of course). One is that we fundamentally remain ourselves. Another, that this is not about sex. (I do not accept your rejection here. One may have very close friends indeed without a relationship becoming "polyamorous.")

None of this should be taken as judgmental. I'm LDS and have views supportive of polygamy, which is the most type of common polyamorous relationship, cross-culturally and historically, despite your comment. Polyamorous relations per se don't bother me - to each their own. But I would encourage all parties in a relationship contemplating such a transformation to undergo some searching personal and relationship therapy first.

[Megan Thomas]

With all respect Megan, I'm a transsexual (gendered) lesbian (sexual), By consensual, mutual agreement I am no longer monogamous...

With all respect reciprocated, I again fail to see the relevance of gender to your chosen relationships. Sorry, I just don't get it, but please read on as I did spot something which may explain this...


But please keep in mind what I said earlier... All parties are involved, all consenting adults, all together or not as preference dictates, and absolutely no sneaking, and no lying...

Frankly, I would expect any person I entered into a relationship with to be consenting and free of sneaky behaviour and lies. This, for me, is paramount regardless of the dynamic of a relationship is or with 1 or many other people. Does/should gender dictate different or a desire for multiple relationships? I wouldn't be so bold to suggest it does, merely that for me it doesn't (as borne out by my own experiences).


My former gender enters in because when I was under the influence of male hormones my thinking processes were profoundly different. Were not yours? Rather than my base desires taking the forefront, now I desire love, compassion, intimacy, fun and new life. Sex is Last, and minor in the mix.

This I found really interesting, not least because for me it has always been about love, compassion and intimacy. Sex was always last and minor in the list, as it is for you now. I know my male hormone count was always on the very low side, so perhaps I never experienced the testosterone fuelled aspect of relationship you have and base your observations on. For me, I've always felt female and therefore behaved as a female in my relationships.

So no, my thinking process weren't profoundly different. I think what this shows, if anything, is the wide range transsexualism can cover and how different and unique it can be for each of us. If you have found something that works for you then great, don't change it and enjoy it for as long as you can. Just don't use it as a benchmark for others... :-)

[Ann Louise]

Thank you Megan for your thoughtful reply. I rarely start my own threads out of an innate insecurity in the public square, and a shyness wrought through years of GD insecurity. My intent was to call attention to a potentially different way to attempt to abate, if even for only a short time, the notoriously high divorce rates that many of my trans friends, and truly myself, too, may be subject to as we make our journey. This is my personal experiment on my personal journey. Wish me luck.

Again, thank you, and all the other girls who have subjected my thesis to critical analysis. All the best our wonderful world has to offer you all!

)*( Bright Blessings, Ann )*(

[kathtx]

Ann-Louise, what does your wife think about the idea?

My wife and I have been in poly relationships with other women. It can work beautifully. But it can also fail badly. Be careful. As with any relationship be sure that everyone is on the same page as to what everyone expects from the relationship. For example if one party thinks of it as casual sex and another wants it to be committed but non exclusive love, trouble is in store. We had an unhappy ending to a triad when it became clear that our girlfriend really had in mind that my wife would leave me for her.

Be careful, and talk honestly with your wife and potential other partners about this before crossing any bridges.

As an aside, my wife and I have this question on our minds lately; we're open to connecting with other women or lesbian couples but for various reasons haven't done so in a few years. But recently there's been an offer on the table, as it were, that we're considering. We love the two women in question as friends, and there's definitely mutual attraction all around, but we're taking things slow to make sure we all want to go there, and to make sure we're all on the same page. We've done this before, and we're being cautious. You and your wife do so as well.

Katharine