fear of men...

[bas1985]

Well, this is a difficult subject to explore, but the recent thread "first mean girl experience" has brought for me different emotions which I collect under the umbrella "fear of men", or, better, of "masculinity".

First the preamble:

Thursday I went to my first LGBT group meeting. I met several Lesbians GG and they treated me like "one of them". I personally do not feel attraction to females, as Marina, but I like their company.

There was also a FTM, a "mother" of two children with which I spoke a bit, regarding trans parenting issues. His children are more or less my age, he said that they call him "mom" but this is not an issue, he is a "mom" who shaves :)

Well, long story short, there were also some MTFs, of course, and I connected only to one or two. There were several gay men and I connected with no one.

I can't explain this but with a "fear of masculinity", it is not the first case, of course, during my entire life I had only real female friends, before coming out, and the coming out has brought this issues really on the surface.

Am I trans phobic?

There are some transwomen which I fear of. Maybe I sense too much "man", too much anger, resentment (there was a T-woman which was in deep anger with her ex-wife, for money and children custody matters), too much "Mars" and too little of "Venus".

But this is not limited to genetic. I fear also some masculine women, for example my mother and :sad: sadly, my ex wife, with her occasional outburst of violence, shouting, breaking things, etc...

So it is not "fear of men", but fear of a side which I did not accept, maybe also in myself. Maybe it is an issue which arose from my history, my violent father (not with me anyway), my masculine mother (she is probably a "missed" man).

This extends also to this forum, sometimes, when I read that the comments get heated :devil: the moderators get angry :angry: ... too much man. Fear of men.

Of course, I know... GG also get angry, it is not a "man" thing, as I said I should rename it as "fear of masculinity", but this could be regarded as sexist, because I match masculinity with "violence".

Maybe it is not correct, in any case I think that the overall concept is written.

And this is the last comment:

to really transition I have to face this fear, because as Marina I will have, as anyone, male and female traits of personality.

[Angela Campbell]

I don't know if I "fear" men. I do not feel comfortable around them. I never have really, most all of my friends have always been female as far back as I can remember. And yes many times I see trans women doing things or saying things that strike me as very masculine, I would guess I do as well because I was raised as a male and taught to behave that way.

[BOBBI G.]

As with both you and Angela, I am more reserved, a little more on guard, for whatever reason. I, all my life, have been more at ease around women, genetic or transgender/sexual. I have come from the dark ages, the 40's, before even rock and roll. Your plumbing determined you, and that was that. Now I am who I am, and as far as I plan to take this, I AM A WOMAN. Have always had closer friends with females, and more lasting friendships. Here in the S.E. Florida area, the sun tends to burn necks, and reduce the mental capacity of males. I am cautious, and a little on guard, but I have been told by a few close friends that they are always cautious in public, so I am assuming we are normal. After all we are also women .

Bobbi

[kimdl93]

My guess is that you've grown to associate maleness with anger and rage through childhood and marital experience. Emotional associations like this are understandable as Pavlov's dogs. But it is learned behavior and it can be unlearned. Not only will it make you more at ease around people, but you may gain a measure of confidence in dealing with the inevitable disagreements and conflicts of life.

[bas1985]

yes, I suppose that this is like a Pavlov reflex. Nevertheless, from a "spiritual" point of view, I suppose that I had those experiences in childhood also to face the issue of masculinity in myself. So it's all related and it's difficult to say which has caused what; my deepest insight has been that probably I am TS for a mixture of being born that way and the loss of a reliable man model has made for me impossible to fill the gap, so I always related to girl and now women better.

[DeeDee1974]

Maybe not a fear, but I always felt uneasy around the alpha male type of guys before I transitioned. Now I find them rather attractive.

My closest friends were always female. It's strange because my closest female friends in college gravitated towards me just like I gravitated to them. I was not even close to coming out, but they all truly just treated me as one of them. I even lived in an off campus house with all women from my junior year of college through grad school.

When I did finally come out my friend Jenny was like "it's about time". I was like huh?

Then she recounted the summer that we were the only 2 of the roommates to stick around for the summer. It was a hot summer and my mom had purchased a window unit for my room. The only AC in the house. Jenny reminded me that it was so hot that she would come home from work and basically sit around in her underwear and watch TV. She would then sleep in my bed in her underwear because my room had the AC.

She said you never seemed to check me out or make any move. And Jenny is a very attractive woman. She said that there was no way she would do that around most guys, but she always felt I was one of the girls.

[LeaP]

It's the feeling that many of us have. I don't think it's transphobia, though. In my case, the source is revulsion over having to live and be associated with what I do not like. I'm well aware that I have exhibited some of these traits all to often, part of the problem being they are testosterone driven. So, as much as anything else, it reflects my own personal issues as I project them onto others.

But that's only one aspect. The more you feminize, the more you may find the natural female's caution around men. I get surprised by this from time to time. Reactions like being on an elevator alone with several men, for example ... even when presenting male! It catches me by surprise, and then I find myself laughing at myself afterward.

The observation about male characteristics in trans women is made often. Every once in a while you'll see it tossed out in the forum as an accusation of male privilege. I expect that any and all of us will retain some stereotypically male characteristics. First, they are stereotypes, and not truly male or female, as you observed yourself. Second, no one can completely escape their socialization and the effects of life as lived. Third, I think that as an intersex condition, it is likely that transsexualism will eventually be shown as a mix of masculinized and feminized characteristics (e.g., even in brain structures), so behavioral tendencies influenced by such things may be more or less of a mix, depending on the natal physical characteristics of the individual.

As with other responses, I find my reactivity to be changing over time. If I have been surprised at my caution reactions, I was much more surprised by a positive reaction to an alpha type on one occasion. Precisely the type that usually repels me the most. Go figure.

[bas1985]

DeeDee74 I can agree with you

During teen age time I was regarded by my female friends as a kind of "eunuch", sexless individual, I have memories in my teens when girls stayed in underwear in front of me and they did it without malice, long before I lost my virginity. Problems arose when the "male" part of me was "triggered" by those views, then I felt very frustrated but I suppose that my female friends knew, and it was true, that I won't do anything to exploit the situation, nothing physical.

One of them told me that I was for her a "brother", another talked about my "intelligence", she viewed me as a sort of "brain" without body.

The funny thing was that the "prettiest" girls were my friends, and some male acquaintances were envious of me because I stood in the company of "sexy" girls, it was a bit of funny, viewed in perspective.

My friends, denying me sexual contact, in a certain sense gave me a favor, they implicitly knew that something was not "right" in me. One of them, after my come out, was very sincere and told me that when we were in high school she thought I was too strange to have ever a girlfriend. I asked to explain what "strange" is... and she said that I was too intellectual, too elaborate...

In a certain sense as a friend I was really "inside", really accepted, but as a man I was too strange and my funny tries to "have" a normal life as a boy (girlfriend) were unsuccessful and regretful, because I used my "intellectual" side to simulate being in love, which of course was a fake.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

I am trying to live a perfect life in what I would like to be my last third of life. In so doing I picked up a basic form of Buddhism and do twelve step programs with everybody I can to be there for them too. The term "resentment" and life self reflection is part of the process.

Addressing your question. I have so much trouble not resenting much less loving older males as human beings. Especially the A type ones. The one who are, to my way of thinking, overcompensating. To my way of thinking, like I did for 50 years.

My attraction is to all women, especially older and especially those on this site who are men in women's clothing. I've been this way since puberty. I am still exploring why I don't want to like males. I try to think of them as smiling children and this helps.

Closing, let me quote this one, the line of the day for me: "Here in the S.E. Florida area, the sun tends to burn necks, and reduce the mental capacity of males." Too funny, Bobby G. Let it not be me, let it not be me.

Namaste :hugs: robbin

[noeleena]

Hi,
Male's...Female's, Girfriends well maybe,.....not....

Male's,
hated being around them , one allmost took our Lifes Mom & my self, plus did a few other things as well not nice i can tell you, some if not all why my memory was shut down and a mind blank, for 10 years though 7 were shut out all most compleatly,

I only know what Mom told me other wise......... nothing.

Female,
i only relate to women and with them in a way a normal female / woman can, i dont know any other way, though im some what different i should have been able to relate to and with men never happened ,

Even though i worked under them and for them there were a few in my life that were very good to me and a few still are, , i seem to get along quite well with men well i think i do at least i try, i try to be a social person , though im allways wary , with in our groups i do have men give me a hug on greeting and departing and thats lovely, and thats all it is, and are good friends,

Girlfriends ,

I saw other girls as sisters and treated them as such so this boy girl friend detail was not what i saw as something that would work, of cause my background did not help so was more a loner and was happy by myself with my animals .and i enjoyed the children and others who would like my interests so would ride our horse's .

and when some gave birth goats pigs ducks thier offspring were lovely for the children,

Children were around me a lot and would come to me because they were safe with me, thier Mom's and Dads were included, as well,

Now I dont fear men i just dont trust them now i wont say all men are aggressive and have issues about them selfs that they are angree all the time just when drink is part of thier demeaner and the after concerning abuse to children and women then

ill be there to surport and ill take a stand against those men as i have done so yes i know what they are like, i know what its like in the fireing line, what i have done is have a number of groups that i can call on when needed and ill work with those women ,

I'v allso been with and worked with women in abuse and depression and other issues , when you understand what its like and been through these issues you are then better able to understand and can help;

Now that im able to express myself and my love in away that i can give fully as a person i know my life is more complete im more fullfilled as a person as well.

To become a strong person you need to grow as a woman i have,
And we all grow at different rates so dont compare with others or myself because we all grow into who we are in our own time .

...noeleena...

[mechamoose]

When I was in my mid-20's I hung out with a bunch of lesbians. I was dubbed an 'honorary girl'.

I have never been comfortable around typical 'jock' types. (Though I do find them hot. Woof!)

My dad was a sweetie. No real anger/temper issues, he was very much into sports and did not display any cross-gender traits other than being kind. He was a real artofmanliness.com (http://artofmanliness.com) kind of guy.

The guys in the office natter about sports and politics and stuff, and I'm finding myself either with nothing to relate/share or being the 'alternate' voice to where most of them were going.

You aren't alone, hon.

- MM

[bas1985]

Thank you. I too suppose that every one has a different story and we are brought here by different means but the goal seems the same: to discover who we truly are.

For the mast majority of people questioning our identity is not questioning the gender we were assigned and raised, for us questioning the gender is the "point" in all the quest for wholeness and identity.

Tonight I will have my second LGBT group, I will tell you if there are different aspects from the first... bye!