The "man in a skirt" phenomenon

[Secret Drawer]

I want to speak about the “man in a skirt” phenomenon. There is a full range of reactions to what is perceived as a man in a skirt on this site, but many are outright hostile. None the less it is essentially a simple fix!
Assuming most of us here (considering it is a male to female forum!) are genetic males we naturally understand that not only do we have penises but often male body structure, facial and body hair, male pattern baldness, adams apples, etc. and so on to contend with. However, none of this really matters because as we all already know, GENDER IS BETWEEN THE EARS, NOT THE LEGS! So it doesn't really matter that you have a deep tenor voice, your voice doesn't force you to talk about fantasy sports and eating raw deer liver. Your brain decides what you are going to say.
In a recent post someone said that they felt disingenuous when they put on makeup and a wig before going out in public because it felt like a disguise. Yet this person prefers wearing women's clothing over mens out in public. Is this a case of a “man” looking to shock or be humiliated publicly? No, it is simply that person happens to have genetically male looking features with a more feminine featured mindset. It would seem that some people (many of us being right here!) are actually not at all “men in skirts.” We are simply more accurately depicting who we are on the inside. It is not my fault that I have male pattern baldness or facial hair or even that I have a penis! I was born with those genes in place, sorry about that!
Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! While some here prefer the light is on or light is off approach to dressing (all or nothing), others (generally considered gender fluid/ gender queer) have a light that is constantly on the dimmer switch, never really off and rarely fully on either.
The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Some TS feel that when a man wears obviously "feminine" clothing and presents as a man it somehow belittles or makes light of those suffering with GID. I don't agree this is the case (some of the closest people in life have been TS and I know the pain they go through, as close as an observer can anyway), and I never, ever would do something I believed would make any of their lives harder) but that is the perception of some.

[trishacd]

Well put!

[natcrys]

I have always been a supporter of the idea that everyone should be able to wear what they want. So, if a guy want to wear a dress, but not shave his legs.. or doesn't want to mess around with make-up. Or (dare I say it.. :p ) doesn't want to wear heels.. all the more power to them! :)

For me personally, if I could get away with not wearing make-up.. I'd probably wear much less of it. But my clothing will need to be completely feminine.

[Krisi]

If you want to parade around town in a skirt and beard, that's not illegal. It will, however, shock and disgust the majority of the general public. You can say they don't understand you and it may be true but that doesn't change their feelings towards you.

It's your life and you can live it however you want to (within the law of course). What about your family members? Wife and children? Employer? What you do will affect them.

[Katey888]

I agree it's well put - and an aspirational liberal perspective that I'd also agree we should all try aspire to... There are certainly a good few members who seem quite comfortable to simply be themselves, physically, with female clothing but without the addition of makeup or a wig. Like you ( and I think most folk here) I say - fine: be how you feel most comfortable as an individual - there is no CDers Rule Book, despite humorous assertions there is... :)

From a personal POV, I simply love the completely transforming feel that completing the overall femme look with hair and makeup brings. If I were out, I'd probably also feel more comfortable that even being an obvious MIM (male in makeup!) I'd likely attract less attention than being without it all - anyway, I love the art behind it, and the fact that it is, in a way, an obfuscation of my male self.

I have learnt a lot more tolerance from exposure to this site - and I do now firmly believe that we are all - well, 99% - part of that broad TG mosaic that runs from fetish dressers right through to TS. For those of us that embrace that idea, it's not such a big step to then accept that we all have different ways of expressing that complex persona - for some of us all the time; for others just part-time - but that all those uniquely individual ways are equally valid - and we should try to remember to do our best to respect that.

Thanks for bringing up an important reminder... :D

Katey x

[Tami]

If you want to parade around town in a skirt and beard, that's not illegal. It will, however, shock and disgust the majority of the general public. You can say they don't understand you and it may be true but that doesn't change their feelings towards you.

It's your life and you can live it however you want to (within the law of course). What about your family members? Wife and children? Employer? What you do will affect them.

Why would you be"parading " simply by wearing a skirt and having a beard ? And I don't think most people would be "disgusted" , perhaps it would raise an eyebrow or two. As mentioned below there is no rule book. I myself would be a lot happier if I had the nerve to switch my jeans for a skirt without the added pressure of feeling like I have to try and look like Beyoncé.

[mechamoose]

I see a bit of a difference, and Katey is on it too.

A lot of members here change their internal and external *gender* when they dress. Others (like me) don't.

- MM

[Lynn Marie]

Point well made. Sorry, I'm not convinced. "Mixed" dressing is actually an embarrassment to me. My friends and I do our very best to present well whether we "pass" or not. Yes, we get noticed, most often in a good way.

[Beverley Sims]

I can see where you are coming from but it is hard to get my head around it.
I may have further useful comment later in the thread.
I hope it does not degenerate into a squabble.

[Gillian Gigs]

I want to speak about the “man in a skirt” phenomenon. There is a full range of reactions to what is perceived as a man in a skirt on this site, but many are outright hostile. None the less it is essentially a simple fix!

Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! While some here prefer the light is on or light is off approach to dressing (all or nothing), others (generally considered gender fluid/ gender queer) have a light that is constantly on the dimmer switch, never really off and rarely fully on either.
The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.
Many other threads talk about the general lack of observation for John Q Public, so to belabour a point, why would a man in a skirt be disgusting! Yes, some may wag their heads as they keep going, but most don't care, as long as no one is getting into their face about it. Aside; if there is anything that drives me nuts, it is the blatant sexuality on display during "Pride week". I don't need an in your face attitude while you tell me of your rights! Just my opinion. Or is this a result of the feeling that if you are brazen enough, then others will leave you alone?
When we hear the word extremist, we usually think in the political arena, is that the only area we see extremists, what about CD extremists? You know, the ones who say all or nothing, or you have to do it just like me. Yes, there are a few out there, but there are probably just as many of us that would just prefer to be a "man in a skirt".
If there is any one thing that I would like out of this life, it is this, that a person could live out their lives quietly as they choose and do no harm in the process. For me that would be as a "man in the skirt".

[Princess Grandpa]

Do we really think John Q Public looks any differently if were made up and presenting nicely vs walking around with a beard or whatever? If they are accepting and tolerant they accept us and tolerate us. If the aren't they don't. I doubt very seriously if they see a difference at all. Sure some girls pass so well you would never know they were CD/TS. They are treated like the GG's they so closely resemble. The rest of us, those hoping to pass or those of us who could only pass in the dark from a great distance, we are men in skirts. Maybe men with make up maybe men with beards but men nevertheless. Only to us does it seem be a difference.

If "they are going to accept us fully presenting, they will accept us partially presenting. There is only a difference here, amongst ourselves. To those of us who struggle to accept those others of us I have to ask, how can you demand to be accepted as you are and not grant that same right to another. Any other?

Hug
Rita

[Debra Russell]

Personally - all or nothing, I can't see presenting any other than fully femm, I mean really - what's the point...:thinking::idontknow:.................Debr a

[UNDERDRESSER]

Well I do want to go out in a skirt, but male. It has nothing to do with displaying my "inner gender"

I am male, and quite happy to be so. I do feel that the male "image" has been distorted somewhat, and it isn't necessary to be the macho type, any more than it is necessary for a GG to be all fluttery and weak. My skirts are chosen with an eye for enhancing my general image, and not try to fake a female outline. It's tricky though, as some outfits actually work to display what I want, in a way that I want, but it looks wrong because of societal conditioning. The only way to get past that is to gently push the boundaries.

I've said it before, I feel that some people crossdress because they want to show a different personality or behaviour, but they have been brought up to think that "men don't do that" OK, fine, I'll be a woman then. I think this is behind some of the strongly adverse reactions on here that a "man in a skirt" causes. Some feel it is wrong for them, and seeing someone else do it casts doubt on their own attitude, which in turn causes discomfort, fear, or anger.

Please note, I don't think that this is true for all, or even most, but I do think that it is behind some of the reactions. If you don't feel this is true for you, then don't react as if I'm saying it is. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I myself have problems with some presentations, probably because I can't get past all of my own societal conditioning, or I can't grasp the other's mindset

[CynthiaD]

Don't get me wrong. If you want to wear a dress while presenting as male, that's cool. (Ultra-cool, in fact!) However, for myself, there are a few things that I feel necessitate trying to look as feminine as possible. By "as feminine as possible" I mean: wig, breastforms, lipstick, and maybe light foundation to hide the razor-burn. The first things on that list are, of course, wig, breastforms, and makeup. Other things are skirts, dresses, certain tops, and high heels. I do wear high heels with male clothing, but only at home. If I go out, the heels come off, or the rest goes on.

I do this because I don't want others to think I'm making a joke or making fun of femininity. But as I said, this is my rule and it applies only to me.

I should add that I consider myself to be a woman with male body parts. This undoubtedly influences how I feel about such things.

[Nadine Spirit]

If anyone wants to wear a skirt and a beard, I say, go for it! :)

But I do not ascribe to the philosophy that anybody should be allowed to wear anything at anytime. I think some things are inappropriate for public wear, regardless of what gender you are or are trying to emulate, or not emulate, however you want to put it. My personal opinions are that some items are better left for private alone time than for public display, generally the things that are more sexually related I think should be for your private time.

[Wildaboutheels]

CDers of every variety, of all people, should know better than to judge a book by it's cover. Or try to dictate to others, WHAT a cover should look like.

Sadly, that is more the exception than the rule here. But they are simply opinions and nothing more.

And it should not take a Rocket Scientist to realize that CDers who go out only partially dressed ["more" noticeable to JD Public] and simply carry themselves with "class" AND more importantly treat others right are the ones who will make it easier for the full dressers.

Actions speak louder than words.

Or presentation.

[AllieSF]

I agree with you Wild. I also do not agree with the OP that there that some members here are "hostile" to those that go out as a "man in a skirt". People here voice their opinions. Some people can accept that look and presentation, like me, and others can not. Are they hostile because they do not like that look? You like your favorite football team and someone else doesn't. Is the other being hostile? I have rarely read truly hostile words regarding this.

[Billiejosehine]

Everyone has the right to wear whatever they want. Clothing after all is just an extension of who we are and a way to express who we are. Except what is/may be defined by a society in what is or not accepted; there is/should be no right or wrong way in how you should be. So why would it be wrong for a man to wear a skirt and still present themselves as a man? It doesn't harm anyone and it's that persons freedom to dress how they so choose. If you look at any culture you have kilts, dhoti, lungi, sarong, kanga, lamba, fustanella, and so forth.

[sanderlay]

This thread is very hard to respond to... so let me just say this...

I agree with the OP on this issue and hope we could all "... hold a higher standard..." as most here already do.

It's not easy to be different and go against what is considered normal. But for me it is necessary to be myself... just as others here do what they do to be themselves. There is no one right way or path to our individual and personal goals.

[kendra_gurl]

Right or Wrong, Up or Down, Left or Right, White or Black, the world we live in is made up of the Majority and the Minority. Just as it is on this site those two sides almost always see things differently.

With that in mind I believe most would not consider themselves as extremist of either side which does allow for intelligent conversation and exchange of ideas. The ability to keep and open mind is a great asset while it also requires the ability to share one's own opinions openly.


I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.


There really is a reason why Top 40 stations do not mix classical music into their lineup. It's what the Majority of their listeners want. Might not be best for everyone or everything but with most social issues the majority usually rules.

[AllieSF]

"There really is a reason why Top 40 stations do not mix classical music into their lineup. It's what the Majority of their listeners want. Might not be best for everyone or everything but with most social issues the majority usually rules."

Kendra,

What you say has value, but one could look at that in many ways. That classical music station is around because at least a minimum number of listeners, potential buyers to the station's advertiser's products, listen to it and can be counted. The same goes for real hard rock, hip hop, Latin or whatever genre of music station. The Majority in these cases do not rule, they go someplace else that have what they like. On minority genre stations it is the specific minority that listens or rules using your terminology. In our democracy, the majority vote gets their people in and usually rule based on their voters point of view. But they many times bend and compromise when necessary to make things happen (not like our current batch of politicians in some State and the Federal governments!).

I implore the members on this site to dress as they wish and live their lives as they wish. We in ourselves are already a minority in the general public. We do not need less out there, those that dress appropriately. We need more out there to get the public used to seeing us, even interacting with us. They will soon find that we are no different as human beings than their own uncontrollable young sons or daughters who refuses to wear what all the other "normal" kids are wearing at that moment. On a minority site like this one no one should rule. We should support, assist all, and demand equality for all, even those that may be of a lesser minority to each of us in our own point of view. We do not have to live with that minority nor socialize with them, just respect their right to exist as we demand and hope that the general public will do the same for us.

[Lillyasia]

This is an example of an individual or group asking for tolerance yet not being tolerant of others different than themselves. It happens whenever one of these groups achieves their goal of acceptance. It happens in race, religon, politics, and even crossdressing. In this case, that would be dressing and passing comforatbly. Then those who do not dress to their level of acceptance are not given the tolreance they demand for themselves.

Instead of focusing your attention on others, why not focus on yourself and how to make yourself better. And expressing yourself is one thing, but taking it to the point of "in your face" to the general public is another. Is it fair to ask the world to bend for you or should you bend for the world? How about both give a little and meet somewhere in the middle. Ask not what you are not prepared to give.

[kendra_gurl]

Allie yes of course there are alternatives to the Top 40's stations and that was my point as to the OP. In the vain of this thread the "man in a skirt" in going out in public the "majority place" so he has got to accept that some will ridicule him, that's a fact of life. That might not happen should he decide to change stations by going out only to CD friendly clubs or places while presenting as a man in a skirt.

We are all human first, then male or female, then masculine or feminine or a blend. We have the right to dress as we want as long as we can still defend the rights of others to be offended by what we show them.

Let me put it this way I am a male with male genitalia but there are laws against me showing those to the general public. I just think that instead of trying to force the majority to accept our crossdressing by looking obviously as a "man in a skirt" we should be thankful there are no laws against it.


.” We are simply more accurately depicting who we are on the inside. It is not my fault that I have male pattern baldness or facial hair or even that I have a penis! I was born with those genes in place, sorry about that!
Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! .

Please help me to understand what it is about wearing only an article of clothing (in this case a skirt) but remaining male in appearance in public changes the way you feel about yourself. If you truly feel yourself to be feminine all the time then why only express it in a way that shocks others?

[SabrinaEmily]

Allie yes of course there are alternatives to the Top 40's stations and that was my point as to the OP. In the vain of this thread the "man in a skirt" in going out in public the "majority place" so he has got to accept that some will ridicule him, that's a fact of life. That might not happen should he decide to change stations by going out only to CD friendly clubs or places while presenting as a man in a skirt.

Says who? I've gone out as a "man in a skirt" plenty of times, in various places, and not only to queer-friendly locales, and if I've ever been ridiculed, it was minor enough that I've easily forgotten it, since I can't remember it ever happening. Most of the people claiming I'll be ridiculed have no experience of their own to argue against mine, and just about everyone I've encountered who does have the experience finds that theirs agrees with mine.

Well, on second thought, the one time I can think of that someone criticized me for wearing a skirt while otherwise presenting as male, it was a trans woman at a discussion group for transgender issues, using the same bad argument as elsewhere in this thread, that doing so is somehow insulting to women. One might conclude that I would do better to stay out of these so-called friendly places.

[Jenniferathome]

Do we really think John Q Public looks any differently if were made up and presenting nicely vs walking around with a beard or whatever? ...

If "they are going to accept us fully presenting, they will accept us partially presenting. ...

To the first point, YES! It's all about shock value. Apples and Oranges to John Q.

To the second point, If the question is, can John Q handle either, then yes, he can. But do not underestimate the shock value.


...If you look at any culture you have kilts, dhoti, lungi, sarong, kanga, lamba, fustanella, and so forth.

Indeed, those cultures have that style of dress. But we don't live in those cultures. We live in THIS, Western culture where cross dressing is not ok and wearing a skirt is for women. it's just reality. We all live in reality, not in "should be" land.

Dress as you like and accept the consequences of your actions. That's the real world. Most people won't care. Some will. Again, reality.

[Princess Grandpa]

As there is no way to know which of us is right Jennifer I guess we agree to disagree. Hug. I don't believe they see anything but a man in a dress no matter how nicely we present.

And in the end John Q Public doesn't matter. We all have to be true to our own selves. Whether that means going out as a man in a skirt, fully presenting beautifully, or transitioning. We each have to follow the path we feel is right and have to allow everyone else to do the same.

Hug
Rita

[JamieOH]

I can assure you that I definitely look like a man no matter how I do my make up and wig. And a lot of times I don't wear wig and makeup. Yet I don't disgust or make people uncomfortable. I may not look like a beauty queen or even a. Drag queen, but I am confident and smile. I hold my head high. And people respond to me with courtesy and respect. They smile laugh with me not at me. It is all about how you approach them. And how you see yourself

[Secret Drawer]

I never expected this thread to grow legs like it did, thanks to everyone for your input.
There seems to be two sticking points that need addressing, one being the presentation issue, and the other is the “whats the point?”
In so far as presentation, I only ever expect anyone (CDs and non CDs alike) to dress appropriately for community standards and venue. The very idea of shock value (even disgust!) is off the table! Presentation, no matter what the gender variation should always be of the most tasteful. The slippery slope here is if you cannot accept someone wearing the clothing of the opposite gender at all, then you cannot accept yourself either, which I fear is the issue for some of the folks here.
The idea of “whats the point?” is a struggle for understanding which is always a good thing to try to do, and I will try to clarify for those who wonder.
I identify myself as gender fluid. What this means (among other things) is that I do not necessarily identify as being wholly male or female. If I were to wake up tomorrow morning with a vagina instead of a penis I would no doubt be surprised, but ultimately not have a particular crisis attack over it, and eventually just get on with my day. (Because I do not identify myself through my genitalia at all!) Now, if I decided to wear a skirt later that day it would technically fit within even the strictest community standards because after all, technically I would be an actual woman. However, in our little scenario I have exactly the same male looking body, face, everything! So according to some, I will shock and disgust the general public prompting a witch hunt and getting arrested for some form or other of classless act. Once I was in jail and it was discovered that I in fact was a woman, then it becomes a shameful apology fest. (After all, ugly is not a crime... yet!?) However, this scenario is highly unlikely, but why is it somehow OK for the above “beat down” to be acceptable simply because I have different plumbing then the packaging indicated? (Bearing in mind that we are holding ourselves to tasteful and acceptable attire, minus the opposite gender bit!)
In so far as the why bother, the short answer is because that is simply as far as I feel the need to go. Some are happy just in the bedroom, some need to become post op women. It is just a step along the way.

[noeleena]

Hi,

So a man in a skirt. or a dress no matter ether way. so Join our group The SCA. or some other Renaissance group. im a member and its world wide, most of our men wear dress's and the Public know this so where is the man in a dress gone wrong ,

oh but of cause western thinking over the last how many years, you work it out, so what has changed since the time men wore dress's to now,

Now then ....you look at my photo what do you see some one with no hair no makeup male masculine facial features at our Scottish week end late last year, with 50 of our people im well known do the photo work and seen all the time, so pass judgement ill say I look more male so my ? to you is am i.

I'v been asked, told , your game to be dressed as a woman or you have the courage to take on the personer of a woman and are you a woman ,

So how would you answer that , you see i have a few screws lose or missing a bit insane and plan weird so quite nuts as it is , so why would i dress as i do, and many 1000's of people see me and many 10,s of 1000's more know my background as well so why the hell would i put my self and family through the hell of, what the hell are you and doing,

as you go look up my profile ether here or the net, youll see some of us are born different, not a dresser though it looks like i do, not trans though some would be more happy had i been, well maybe not,
So i'll let you answer then you can tell me instead of giving my answer, see what you come up with. then you may understand why some of us are skited up or dressed up because of how we are born,

...noeleena...

[Sallee]

Interesting statement. I read a statement here at one time where it was said that it is ok for a girl to put on mens clothing and not be thought of as a cross dresser. This is true as long as she isn't trying to pass. So guess with that being a norm it should be true for men to do the same as long as he isn't trying to pass. That would mean for a man no bra or wig. Although I guess make up would be ok. It seems like the pass thing is what begins to cause concern. I know that I try to "pass" (thought of as a woman by the casual eye) and that makes me a CD/TV. I think it would be the same for women if they put a binder on and stuff their pants then they are a dc/tv.
In my eye it is all ok but that is where the acceptance and rejection problems begin to occur.
I know it isn't the same for me unless I am trying to "pass"

[Amanda M]

I come from a Western culture where men wear skirts. Scotland. So sometimes, I AM a man in a skirt. Here is the conundrum though. I love my femme clothing, but somehow my Scottish "skirt" just does not cut the mustard!

[Tanya+]

i was driving home, saw a lovely set of legs in patterned pantyhose, 4" heels mid-thigh length skirt, -my kind of outfit.. plane black shirt neatly trimmed beard. confident, gorgeous handsome. Everything i would be if i was a tad less repressed.

"i wouldn't, so he shouldn't" ?!! Spare me.

[kendra_gurl]

I love my femme clothing, but somehow my Scottish "skirt" just does not cut the mustard!

Great example of the basic crossdressers desire, to wear female clothing not something that is still made for males. Huge difference between a Kilt and a Pencil skirt.





Indeed, those cultures have that style of dress. But we don't live in those cultures. We live in THIS, Western culture where cross dressing is not ok and wearing a skirt is for women. it's just reality. We all live in reality, not in "should be" land.

Dress as you like and accept the consequences of your actions. That's the real world. Most people won't care. Some will. Again, reality.

Exatly!


Secret Drawer
You are correct...you will not suddenly wake up tomorrow with a vagina. So knowing that I ask again to help me understand the need to wear a skirt while presenting as male. Your scenario was a attempt to make it acceptable (I can appreciate what you were expressing if it could have happened) but not explain the desire.

[Krisi]

I too am curious as to why a man would walk around town in a skirt but not otherwise try to appear female. Genuinely curious.

And I really am curious how it affects one's family and employment. I mean if someone sees me out and dressed, they might say "Boy that woman looks a lot like Joe.", but if I was wearing a skirt but had a beard and bald head they would say "What's the matter with Joe, parading around town in a skirt?"

[Jenniferathome]

Krisi, I would suggest that it is because they are NOT trying to pass as female.

What is funny about your comment is that it is written from a "wants to pass" cross dresser's perspective. If a woman were writing this, she may write, "I am curious why a man would walk around town in a skirt." It's just perspective.

[Gillian Gigs]

I see a big part of the problem as being that we project how we are thinking onto the rest of the population. You can not understand why some guy would want to wear a skirt around town, then you automatically think that everyone is thinking the same way. By example, I find that most card cheats are continually on the look out for other card cheats. Why, because they are thinking that everyone is just like them, a card cheat! For many of us we remember the first few times we went into the womens wear section of the store, nervous, thinking that at any moment the store intercom was going to shout for security to remove that pervert from fondling panties in the lingerie section. Well guess what, it didn't happen, the clerk helped us and no one said boo at the check out. Through this we gained confidance, and now for many of us we shop without a thought for whatever we want.
Would I be a CD'er if I dressed feminine from the waist down and masculine from the waist up...who really cares! Would people be shocked, or has Holywood helped us by using the whole CD thing for comic purposes. Hence they would wag their head and think silly person.
As someone said;
"I read a statement here at one time where it was said that it is ok for a girl to put on mens clothing and not be thought of as a cross dresser. This is true as long as she isn't trying to pass. So guess with that being a norm it should be true for men to do the same as long as he isn't trying to pass."
So how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time! My point, any small freedom of expression should be considered a move forward. Any small step on the road of self expression is good for the next person no matter how far down the road they want to travel. I strongly believe in freedoms, but not at the expense of doing harm to others. Just because someone thinks that what I am doing is weird, is not causing harm.
If I were to wear a cowboy hat and boots, that doesn't make me a cowboy. If I were to wear a skirt and hose, that doesn't make me a girl either. Both should be nothing more than a fashion statement, based on how the individual feels on the inside. Now, we just have to get the rest of society to see it the same way!

[Lynn Marie]

Why do I get the feeling that the bearded guys in skirts are the only ones on this forum pushing an agenda. Personally I'd rather not be pushed.

[Rhonda Darling]

What the heck, I'll jump on the moving train. . . . .

I suspect that those among US who are upset the most about the "man in a dress" presentation are those of us who try hardest to pass and blend in with the GGs of the world. We are aware that much of society still ridicules the over the top transvestites / performers, fed by Hollywood's general way of painting all of us into the same corner, and making us the butt of jokes or the pathetic sex workers of the back story. Seeing the proverbial "man in a dress" out and about in the real world (we fear) only strengthens the negative stereotype.

An example is called for. At the Keystone conference last year, there were a couple of CDs (and they were a couple) who were into what I call "little girl fettish dressing". Short flouncy pink dresses with petticoats, pink or white anklet socks, Mary Jane or ballet flats with instep strap, Hello Kitty backpacks, pig tails with ribbons in their hair, and more. These "ladies" were likely in their 50s or beyond. So 28 of us go into a nice restaurant dressed. For an evening out and trying to present as ladylike an appearance as possible, and two of us waltz in looking like Little Bo Peep. All eyes in the restaurant swivel to take in their presentation, and then the whole lot of us are given the thrice over. Any possible chance of blending ended when they made their entrance.

That carries over to real every day life. The extremes feed the stereotype, making it more difficult to evade being stereotyped.

We may not like it about ourselves, but many of us are indeed critical of those who don't work at it to blend or pass. However, even if you don't blend or pass, if you've given it a reasonable attempt, we won't fault you. But, if your presentation screams extreme, expect criticism.

IMHO.

Rhonda

[mechamoose]

I don't know that there is an 'agenda' being pushed, Lynn Marie...

As one of the "guy in a skirt" crowd, I'm just me. I'm envious of a number of you folks in the "transition" crowd in that you go MUCH further than I do or could based on my situation (I have an agreement with the wife not to remove my fur. One of my tiny number of limits.) But when I walk into clothing stores I ooh and ah all over the women's selections.

For me, I'm not trying to change my gender identity in the same way the 'trans' crowd is. I'm showing different facets of myself, not trying to be a different *version* of myself.

I think that is a key difference.

<3

- MM

[UNDERDRESSER]

Well put Gillian. I don't think of myself as a crossdresser, because, in the same way that my GF might decide to wear a "masculine" style of coat, she isn't trying to look like a man, she is just trying to project a look that has masculine connotations. (at least as far as mainstream society is concerned) When I wear a skirt and hose, it's to project a part of me that a lot of people see as "feminine" but which I don't, in the same way that my GF looking strong and confident, is not exclusively masculine to me. I am dressing to get attention, (somewhat) but not to shock, I would love it if the only reaction was from the girls saying, "Oh! That really shows off your legs!"

[Princess Grandpa]

Krisi, I would suggest that it is because they are NOT trying to pass as female.

What is funny about your comment is that it is written from a "wants to pass" cross dresser's perspective. If a woman were writing this, she may write, "I am curious why a man would walk around town in a skirt." It's just perspective.

This right here! To some (John q public) it's abnormal for a man to present as a woman. To some it's ok to present as a woman but abnormal to dress without the full presentation.


Why do I get the feeling that the bearded guys in skirts are the only ones on this forum pushing an agenda. Personally I'd rather not be pushed.

I get a very different message from this thread. The agenda I see is those that don't dress our way need to get with the program. They need to conform to the proper way of cross dressing. I don't see "the man in the skirt" trying to make you conform. I see them arguing for their right to exist.

If we cannot give acceptance to those who feel, think, or act differently, what right do we have to expect acceptance for ourselves? The comments I'm reading are no different than the comments they *waves vaguely* make about us? If I'm misinterpreting the comments I see here I apologize but what I see is the same thing I'm faced with in the mainstream public and why my outings are now restricted to these couple of clubs where I feel safe.

I wear women's clothing without fully presenting. I have an everyday wardrobe of jeans and tops and such. All semi androgynous. A dude wouldn't realize I'm wearing from the women's section but a woman probably would. If I'm wearing a dress or skirt and leaving the house I need to do my best to blend. If I'm sitting around the house I won't bother Julie to do my make up but I will wish I had. I still use the wig and forms. I will shave however even if I can't use make up. Not sure why I feel differently once it becomes a dress instead of pants. *ponders*

This issue seems to me very much like marriage equality. If you disapprove of same sex marriage don't marry someone of the same sex. If you disapprove of crossdressing don't crossdress. If you disapprove of partial dressing don't partial dress. Beyond that it doesn't affect you. That person does not have any responsibility to be a good poster child for trans-rights.


Frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing people cry about trans-rights or gay-rights or <insert label>-rights. They are human rights! We don't need acceptance only for the transsexual or for the properly presenting cross dresser. Everybody deserves to be who they are. Nobody should have to subjugate how they feel, who they are, to please the rest of us!

Hug
Rita

[Wildaboutheels]

Is it really wise to place a lot of stock in people's opinions who have very little actual EXPERIENCE "dressed" out in the RW?

And/or THINK they know how JDPublic is going to react?

And/or THINK they know what JDPublic is thinking?

No one knows what JDPublic is thinking regardless of who is wearing what.

And lost in the shuffle as always... It does NOT matter what JDPublic is thinking anyway.

Until one realizes and recognizes this, one will always be a CDer with their head on a swivel. THE quickest way to out yourself.

[Princess Grandpa]

The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.

A very nice thought. The inability of some to accept others perplexes me immensely! If in fact repeated trips into the real world would make me understand how it's right to treat others this way I'm very glad I quit when I did.

I especially like this last line. "There is no easy road for any of us and while we will never agree on the radio station this site should always be a warm safe car to be in". That it could be anything else leaves me in shock.

Hug
Rita

[kendra_gurl]

Hostile actions or Agendas are not my nature. What I notice so far seems to be discussion about those who do verses those who don't. There really is no right or wrong in this thread and we don't even need to choose sides Rhonda's example of her experience demonstrated the difference some CD's have from others and how they affect each other.

The OP stated the following which I would like her to elaborate on. Help us understand your point of view.



Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! .



The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. .


Krisi, I would suggest that it is because they are NOT trying to pass as female. .
Jennifer sure they are not trying to pass as female but that is no answer as to why are they wearing a skirt in male mode if not to shock or draw attention.


If a woman were writing this, she may write, "I am curious why a man would walk around town in a skirt." It's just perspective.

If you understand why a woman would write that why can you not understand why some CD's have the same question?




I get a very different message from this thread. The agenda I see is those that don't dress our way need to get with the program. They need to conform to the proper way of cross dressing. I don't see "the man in the skirt" trying to make you conform. I see them arguing for their right to exist.

I agree with their right to exist. I just want to understand their reason. Even you in the next quote state you do not do this while in public without trying to blend



I wear women's clothing without fully presenting. I have an everyday wardrobe of jeans and tops and such. All semi androgynous. A dude wouldn't realize I'm wearing from the women's section but a woman probably would. If I'm wearing a dress or skirt and leaving the house I need to do my best to blend. Hug
Rita

[Princess Grandpa]

"I just want to understand their reason". How often have we all heard that. I would love to understand why I need to do this. Other that those trapped in the wrong body, why do any of us do this. There has yet to be anyone able to answer that question as far as I know.

The reason I can understand that a GG would question us like that but not understand why a CD would question a partial dresser (appropriate phrase?) is we should know better. We've been on the side of the one being questioned. We know what it's like to feel ostracized, picked on, or made to feel abnormal. You feel they *waves his hand vaguely* should accept you. Can you tell them why you do it? I can't. I've heard them say we do it for shock value. "Why else would they leave the house?" It's the same things I read here on this thread.

Hug
Rita

[Jenniferathome]

Jennifer sure they are not trying to pass as female but that is no answer as to why are they wearing a skirt in male mode if not to shock or draw attention.

If you understand why a woman would write that why can you not understand why some CD's have the same question?

Kendra, on your first statement, I think you have to allow for the possibility that it is for simple comfort or style preference. Shock or attention are not the only answers.

On the second point, I never disputed this question. I DO understand why some CD would ask. My point is that it is the perspective of the "asker" that dictates what is seen as odd or not.

[donnalee]

Frankly, I am flabbergasted by many of these replies. How could people who want so much to be understood and accepted deny that to someone else? Opinions are one thing, outright hostility (and most of those replies are extremely hostile) are entirely out of line.

"Those who who would give up their freedom for a little temporary security will get (and deserve) neither." - Benjamin Franklin

To seek acceptance while not being accepting falls much into the same category.

[Marcelle]

Great thread and to be honest "well put". I am one who dresses to blend when she goes out (femme cloths, wig, make-up) but I hold no illusions that people look at me and say "girl". So while I may not be sporting a beard with my dress, people still see what I am . . . a guy, dude, man, homme, hombre, bloke. Very few of us truly pass when complete en femme. However, I have come to terms with that and accept it as who I am.

Is a guy going out in a dress very much different than those of us with a wig and make-up . . . with the exception of an effort to disguise the fact we are guys . . . no. We all do what we need to do to feel good about ourselves so who am I to judge. I might wear make-up, sport a wig and don jewelry but in the end I am just a "guy in a skirt". This is from a TG/CD perspective and before anyone gets insulted I know that it is very much different for our TS sisters in that it is not about dressing it is about being.

Hugs

Isha

[Krisi]

"Is it really wise to place a lot of stock in people's opinions who have very little actual EXPERIENCE "dressed" out in the RW?

And/or THINK they know how JDPublic is going to react?

And/or THINK they know what JDPublic is thinking?

No one knows what JDPublic is thinking regardless of who is wearing what."


Of course they do because of their experience being out in public as a male and observing "JDPublic". During much of my career I was part of a team out in public driving from jobsite to jobsite to do work. I remember very well one or more members of the team commenting "Hey - look at that f***ing faggot he-she over there." or something similar. Many times.

The way you know what "JDPublic" is thinking is to be part of it and be observant. Even today I hear friends commenting on crossdressers they have come into contact with. We may not like it but that's the way it is. Denying it won't change a thing.

[kendra_gurl]

Please read the following again from the OP so we may stay on topic



In a recent post someone said that they felt disingenuous when they put on makeup and a wig before going out in public because it felt like a disguise. Yet this person prefers wearing women's clothing over mens out in public. Is this a case of a “man” looking to shock or be humiliated publicly? No, it is simply that person happens to have genetically male looking features with a more feminine featured mindset. It would seem that some people (many of us being right here!) are actually not at all “men in skirts.” We are simply more accurately depicting who we are on the inside. It is not my fault that I have male pattern baldness or facial hair or even that I have a penis! I was born with those genes in place, sorry about that!
.


I am the average balding dude who on the weekends has some facial hair and enjoys relaxing in jeans or shorts and a t-shirt or sweat shirt depending on the weather.
Yes years ago before I summoned up the courage to transform myself completely so I would be comfortable presenting as a female in public I would underdress in whatever I could hide with my outer clothing.

When I ask why would anyone else in this same situation make the decision to change only the jeans or shorts for a feminine skirt (not a male kilt or equivalent)
I am not being hostile or venomous. I am really trying to understand what makes this person not care about being seen this way. I like a very large percentage of the population would see him and thing WTF ? is this guy pulling a stunt of some kind? Is he being punished by someone trying to humiliate him or what?


This is a forum for discussion and help and information for MTF CD's so rather than become hostile and venomous with each other could we make an attempt to understand each other with open and honest dialogue.

The reasoning of he is just trying to express his inner self needs further examination. Under-dressing but still hidden helps thousands of us here to obtain the feeling of feminine clothing, I get that. Dressing gender neutral or gender fluid is not seeking shock value its still a way to hopefully escape public ridicule. Trying to pass fully in public helps thousands more express that inner self too but its done usually with the fear of being read and humiliated for doing so.

What makes this balding dude needing a shave desire to be different?
Perhaps he is a little crazy
Perhaps he is a little perverted
Or Perhaps he is the only brave one.

[GeminaRenee]

It seems to me that he's the individual who might be the bravest one.

You say that you are trying to understand "what makes this person not care about being seen this way." Don't you think an average, non-cd/tg individual might ask the same question about you or I? It's as if people here are trying to insinuate that dressing to pass is more "normal" than being a beard in a skirt. This bothers me, because it's essentially saying that one form of crossdressing is more valid or right than another.

And to say that it doesn't really exist on this forum is a bunch of hooey, because I've seen plenty of picture threads with responses like "you'd look really great, if you'd just shave all that icky hair off your face," or "nice skirt, but all that hair is just so jarring!" That stuff just reinforces the notion that one has to follow certain rules when putting on clothes. I can't even begin to express the level of irony inherent in a crossdresser putting forth that sentiment.

I think we also tend to forget that those of us who do go the whole nine yards are often not nearly as passable as we'd like to think. If 28 CDs walk into a room, they're going to get a roomful of eyes on them whether or not two of them are dressed like infants, or Little Bo Peep, or Cher circa 1989. To pretend otherwise is just to throw members of our own minority under the bus in the hope that we might gain wider acceptance for ourselves. Maybe we need to coin a cd/ts/tg equivalent term for Uncle Tom.

Instead of expending so much energy wondering why Pencilskirt McBeardyton does what he does, wouldn't it make more sense to put that energy into standing together with him? At the end of the day, John Q. Public is probably going to lump the dress-to-pass type in the same boat, after all.

[Princess Chantal]

Thank you Gemina Renee for such a great read.

[Wildaboutheels]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

Could there be any better proof of that than this thread?

[Karmen]

I love wearing skirts while dressed as a girl, but I don't think I could wear it in male mode in reality. It's just not aceptible by the general public. Most of the people know about crossdressers and kind of accept them, the same as gays, but men wearing only skirt or high heels, otherwise wearing male clothes, people see them as freaks.
But if some day skirt for men will become generally acceptable, I know I'll wear them.

[UNDERDRESSER]

Hoo boy, I need to get my camera sorted out and post some pictures to demonstrate my "style"

THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME OF THE REASONS I DO THIS, IT DOES NOT SPEAK FOR OTHERS.

I used to describe myself as a crossdresser, that what was what I called myself when I told my soon to be GF about things she needed to know. I don't anymore, though I accept that parts of what I do are connected to "fetish" crossdressing.

My aim is to get out more in public in skirts, or at least sports, or hiking type kilts. Why? I've found, that skirts are more comfortable, I like the way they look, the way they draw attention to, and accentuate my legs, I like the feel of stockings and thigh highs, (after much experimentation, pantyhose has issues for me) and they work well with skirts. I can feel that nice "snug" feeling around my legs, but can choose underwear which fits and feels nicely. Pants don't work the same, or are as comfortable. I think if I could afford my own tailor/seamstress, or learn to do it, I could come up with pants that would do something similar, but I can't afford/do that.

This has all come about because of my experimentation that started when I began hanging out at my GF's place and began keeping some extra clothes there. Men's stuff, as well, the first piece of girl's clothing, other than underwear that I wore there was an old pair of yoga pants my GF gave me for lounging comfort.

Now, it has become somewhat of a situation where I'm fighting mainstream perception (and my own perception partly) Who the hell says I can't wear a skirt? Functionally, it's no different from a kilt, I'd be pretty happy just wearing kilts, if they were more generally available, and much, much, cheaper. (Note, I'm talking modern iterations of a kilt, not the traditional, those are extremely heavy)

My favourite outfit, the one I tend to throw on when I get home, is a just past knee length lined wool skirt, in a diagonal plaid/tartan, along with a long sleeve thin wool sweater, the same one I wear as male. I may put on a pair of thigh highs as well, depending on availability, temperature or whether or not my legs look especially pale. My GF thinks the outfit looks good, and I have to defend this skirt from her, as she keeps threatening to carry it off the to the sewing machine and make if fit her hips!

I don't particularly want to go out with a group of crossdressers, and if I did, I would expect that the presentation is sufficiently different from a CDer that had spent considerable time making a believable presentation, that I would not look like one their sisters that just couldn't be bothered.

For me, this is all wrapped up with physical comfort, sensuality, sexual display, objection to current male/female stereotypes, freedom of expression, and a bunch of other stuff that we could spend days exploring to the last little nook and cranny.

I myself have "objections" in my own head, to some outfits that some men-in-skirts wear, though I don't try to stop them doing it, because I understand, that for the most part, it simply that we are not used to seeing that. There are some outfits, or articles of clothing, that I would like to wear, and I think, look good, but they are just too unfamiliar and wouldn't fly.

Side issue, when I was younger in the UK, I used to wear exclusively swim briefs, what most North Americans call speedos, pretty much all men did, nobody thought anything of it. That's what you wear to the pool or beach. Yes, you can see an outline, so what? You don't think guys have genitals? These days, unless it's at a pool where most people are doing exercise laps, (and even then, the board shorts are taking over!) you get looks, and see people talking to each other about it, occasional people say something to you. What's changed? Social custom, partly due to the switch of countries, but also the change over time. It's almost as bad, sometimes worse, in the UK these days. It really isn't that long since men were the dandies, wore tunics, robes, stockings, tights, codpieces,...High heels were invented for a man for Pete's sake!

Bottom line, If I wear a skirt out as my (very) male self, it has nothing to do with Transsexuals, people who are Transgender, Crossdressers, Gays, or any others. It isn't meant to be a comment, on what you wear or are, and you shouldn't take it that way. If the general public takes it that way, it isn't my fault, and you shouldn't be asking me, to fix that problem.

[kendra_gurl]

Instead of expending so much energy wondering why Pencilskirt McBeardyton does what he does, wouldn't it make more sense to put that energy into standing together with him? At the end of the day, John Q. Public is probably going to lump the dress-to-pass type in the same boat, after all.

What a sad thought. Without trying to understand or question any of what makes us such a diverse group we should just blindly stand by each other because we are all doomed anyway?

Wild WTF?

Underdresser Thank you for your honesty and explanation of your personal reasons. This is what forums like this should be about. Questions being presented and responses being given in a manner to which explains the way one thinks so others might understand.
You do seem to be a brave one.

Just because I need makeup and you don't or that member A loves pink and member B only likes blue does not mean either of them are trying to force the other to comply or follow a certain set of rules.

I can't help but think what the conversation may have been when the very first guy lowered his jeans to just above his crotch and had to hold them up with one hand to be able to walk without them falling down. That started a trend and perhaps you will be one of the forefathers of the man in a skirt trend. Does questioning what motivated this make me out to be the bad guy? I hope not but my shoulders are broad enough to carry the burden of asking question of what I don't understand.

It would be a lot easier to just bury your head in the sand and never question anyone different than me, but then why would I need to even be on this site if I though that way?

[Badtranny]

Birds of a feather and whatnot.

People are instinctively drawn to others who are like them, so it's natural for the "man in a skirt" crowd to be marginalized on a forum like this. To my mind, that form of cross-dressing is the same without the delusion that most of the "fully dressed" crowd seem to suffer. I skim through the forum every day or so, and I'm routinely astounded by the remarks I see from cross-dressers. They are on the whole, a seriously deluded and entitled group of people.

The very idea that an 'upright family man' who secretly dresses like a woman and fantasizes about "that particular part" of a man every chance he gets would feel no compunction about criticizing a "dude in a dress" is a bizarre idea indeed.

I think the "dude in a dress" is a hell of a lot more honest and brave than the conservative closet queen who actively cultivates a life that would shun him and friends that would hate him if he only had an ounce of courage.

[Babbs]

Well any member on this site who could not support what any of us do as long as it's not harm full to others would surprise me considering who we are...That said, me personally I love my guy side but when I go femme I want to get as femme as I possibly can..I want to look and feel the part...I want to walk the walk...I want my "guy" side pushed to the backround... When I'm a guy though, I do like to cheat and have some femme going on too, just for me, no one else notices.

[GeminaRenee]

What a sad thought. Without trying to understand or question any of what makes us such a diverse group we should just blindly stand by each other because we are all doomed anyway?

Doomed in what sense? To not pass? Calling that doom seems a bit hyperbolic to me.

We're certainly doomed as a group, though, if we create unneeded divisions amongst ourselves - doomed to continue to be marginalized, pointed at, and outcast.

No-one is suggesting that you not try and understand the "why" of things. But let's just say that when your first two hypothetical answers to such a question are that someone might be a pervert (whatever that means), or that he's looking for shock value, well - don't be surprised when people question your open-mindedness.

[UNDERDRESSER]

Well any member on this site who could not support what any of us do as long as it's not harm full to others would surprise me considering who we are...Well said
That said, me personally I love my guy side but when I go femme I want to get as femme as I possibly can..I want to look and feel the part...I want to walk the walk...I want my "guy" side pushed to the backround... When I'm a guy though, I do like to cheat and have some femme going on too, just for me, no one else notices.Exactly. That's your thing. If this forum is to have rules specifying what does and doesn't count as "acceptable crossdressing" it will go down the pan pretty fast. So far, the mods have been pretty good about stopping offensive attacks on members who don't have exactly the same attitudes. Questions, requests for explanation, even polite disagreement and declarations of "I just don't see it myself" perfectly acceptable. If I come to your party, I'll check with you what you will accept me wearing, but if object to your rules badly enough, don't expect me to turn up.
People are instinctively drawn to others who are like them, so it's natural for the "man in a skirt" crowd to be marginalized on a forum like this.It sounds like you are saying that the majority here are only those that "would go all the way" in dressing or even further, in transitioning? I'm not at all that certain, I think there are a lot of others like myself who inhabit the sidelines for the most part, and maybe because they have a broader view, are less likely to jump in with"That's not right"

[sanderlay]

While some here prefer the light is on or light is off approach to dressing (all or nothing), others (generally considered gender fluid/ gender queer) have a light that is constantly on the dimmer switch, never really off and rarely fully on either.

Some Labels I might Associate with ME

If we are to use labels for a moment I'm closer to gender fluid / gender queer. Androgynous / Androgyne. Bi-gender or Two Spirited. These labels may start to give you a flavor of who I am. But I don't think any one label(s) or term(s) describes the real me inside, what I feel every day.

What Motivated This / My Theory

Exactly why I can not say. But after years of searching and study I've come to the conclusion that there are two sides to my gender identity, my yin and yang, masculine and feminine. That I need to present and acknowledge both these parts. I can not just be male, only Steve, as I tried to do for over fifty years. That also means I can not just be female, Debbie. I should not remove the man and be only a woman. That would cause another conflict. I am not a girl trapped in a man's body. It means I am more.

Why do I do What I do?

I do what I do to feel myself, to feel normal, to feel genuine. Hiding a part of myself causes a conflict, my gender dysphoria. For me the secret needed to come out. The conflict needed to end. And so I present as I do to feel right in this body.

How I present in Public Everyday

My daily presentation does change, usually more casual feminine clothes and some times more masculine, but always some kind of skirt, knee length or longer. Also an A-line style to give the illusion of hips and a smaller body top. Think of a tom girl with a skirt kind of look. I always have my, natural shoulder length long hair, usually my silver earrings but not always and usually a dainty feminine silver necklace and butterfly. I try to shave every time I go out in public. A beard is not part of my look. But to be genuine I do not wear makeup at the moment. I work with my hands a lot, think about a rural area, so painted nails are just not practical on a daily basis. Remember... I'm not trying to imitate a woman. I am not a woman. But neither am I trying to present as a man. I may have a male body but I am more, like a Androgyne person who I believe does not fit into either or thinking, male or female, masculine or feminine. Think rainbow of choices. Mine just leans more feminine but not completely.

I do wear a bra that does create some cleavage. But I do not stuff the bra or wear forms. I feel better feeling what nature gave me. My legs are always shaved and I wear Capri length legging under my skirt in cooler weather. My shoes are some kind of causal flats, something feminine but also masculine in flavor, rugged but dainty. The rest of my hidden lingerie is feminine but practical.

Further Thoughts / Conclusion

This is not an easy way to live because of what some in society think or say. But attitudes do seem like they are changing for the better. But I do feel calmer and more genuine. I tend to walk around with blinders on to avoid stares, but that can be my fear at times keeping my shields up. But I do love the smiles I get from a few women and I love to smile back. So it is worth it, though I know some might disagree with me and say unkind words behind my back or to themselves. That's their issue and not mine. I have my own life, my path to walk to be myself.

[Gillian Gigs]

I fully admit that I probably fit into the guy in a skirt mode more than going the whole nine yards. That does not mean that the whole nine yards doesn't occasionally happen. I have seen from many of the responders that they want to be in the all guy, or all girl mode of dressing, and that is ok with me. I, myself have attempted to live my life to become as consistant as possible as I can in all arenas of my life. By that I mean that my deepest desire is that I am the same person regardless of the environment, or situation I am in. In my perfect world, I would go guy on the top and girl below the waist, the exception being a cami instead of a t-shirt. Why, I like lingerie, skirts and hose, to me nothing is more comfortable than a skirt and hose! Do I have the freedom to do this in my small town? Unfortunately no, My work and community involvement would suffer, but probably not as much as I might think.
The problem with deception is that it is so deceiving and what we see as truth might not be what we think it is. I can see in the mirror that I would never pass, so I don't. Many on this site can...but don't deceive yourself, I look at the photos that everyone posts. Many can look the part, but the way you stand gives one the thought of a guy, to put it plainly. Theere is more to being a woman, than looking the part!
If anything is to be learned for myself through this life, it is this, be true to yourself. If being true to yourself is going the whole nine yards, then who am I to disagree with you! After all of my pendulum swinging stopped, I found my comfort zone, and it's more a guy in a skirt than the whole nine yards.

[Badtranny]

It sounds like you are saying that the majority here are only those that "would go all the way" in dressing or even further, in transitioning?

What? That's not even close to what I meant. The few here that would actually transition could probably all fit in my car.
I was merely saying that dudes who wear women's clothes out in public without makeup or with "man head" as they say, are a clear minority of the people who actually post.

If you want to argue that point, you'll have to argue it with someone else.

[Jason+]

Unfortunately as wonderful as this forum is I have had a glass of that Kool-aid and in fairness may have actually earned a sip or two of it. The true animosity thankfully comes from a very small but incredibly vocal minority among the larger group. If you can look through some of the animosity sometimes you can find a useable piece of information or understanding.


I too am curious as to why a man would walk around town in a skirt but not otherwise try to appear female. Genuinely curious.

And I really am curious how it affects one's family and employment. I mean if someone sees me out and dressed, they might say "Boy that woman looks a lot like Joe.", but if I was wearing a skirt but had a beard and bald head they would say "What's the matter with Joe, parading around town in a skirt?"

I don't care much for facial hair whether I'm in pants or skirts. I like skirts and dresses and heels and hose and..... I won't be able to explain to you precisely why I like them. Why doesn't the liking of such things automatically trigger a desire for wigs, forms, padding and a name that isn't really mine? I believe because I am not a female. I won't make much sense to you unless you can break the automatic assignment of skirts and dresses to women/femininity.

As for the effect on my family; my wife is not a fan. If I go out of the house in a skirt or dress it's most likely she will not be accompanying me. I checked with her and that would not change if I were to go the full route even if I successfully passed. My son may or may not go depending on where I am going. My neighbor waves and says hello whether I'm in a dress or my work pants. Work sees my long hair and fingernails on a regular basis. I've found the less of a production I make of it when somebody asks me about it the better is seems to go.




Jennifer sure they are not trying to pass as female but that is no answer as to why are they wearing a skirt in male mode if not to shock or draw attention.

I agree with their right to exist. I just want to understand their reason. Even you in the next quote state you do not do this while in public without trying to blend

Kendra,

No one since 2011 has given you any reason other than mock and shock for a man to wear a skirt as a man?



I am the average balding dude who on the weekends has some facial hair and enjoys relaxing in jeans or shorts and a t-shirt or sweat shirt depending on the weather.
Yes years ago before I summoned up the courage to transform myself completely so I would be comfortable presenting as a female in public I would underdress in whatever I could hide with my outer clothing.

Trying to pass fully in public helps thousands more express that inner self too but its done usually with the fear of being read and humiliated for doing so.

What makes this balding dude needing a shave desire to be different?
Perhaps he is a little crazy
Perhaps he is a little perverted
Or Perhaps he is the only brave one.

I don't worry about being humiliated by being read because I appear as who I am. Our main difference is what it takes to achieve the level of comfort you mentioned. You need the entire transformation to be comfortable enough with you to go out that way and yet still seem to harbor the innate fear that you will be caught and humiliated. A recently shaved face and modest length clothing is usually enough for me.

I bolded that last part because it's simply amazing. I am at least 2.67 of those 3 things.


Birds of a feather and whatnot.

People are instinctively drawn to others who are like them, so it's natural for the "man in a skirt" crowd to be marginalized on a forum like this. To my mind, that form of cross-dressing is the same without the delusion that most of the "fully dressed" crowd seem to suffer. I skim through the forum every day or so, and I'm routinely astounded by the remarks I see from cross-dressers. They are on the whole, a seriously deluded and entitled group of people.

The very idea that an 'upright family man' who secretly dresses like a woman and fantasizes about "that particular part" of a man every chance he gets would feel no compunction about criticizing a "dude in a dress" is a bizarre idea indeed.

I think the "dude in a dress" is a hell of a lot more honest and brave than the conservative closet queen who actively cultivates a life that would shun him and friends that would hate him if he only had an ounce of courage.

Melissa,

Three things tried to go through my mind at the same time when I read your post.
1. Whango! (As a high speed object makes it's way out of the ballpark.)
2. Thanks, somebody gets it!
3. Duck and watch for the brickbats!

[Robert]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I grapple with these thoughts all the time, due to the fact that I don't really think the term 'cross dresser' really applies to me. I have no desire to try to pass as a woman, in fact, I couldn't if I tried. I've been a body builder for the last 30 years, I have a beard, and I shave my head. I have no feminine alter ego, and I'm not trying to get in touch with my 'female side'.

I do however like to wear satin, and silky underthings, and sometimes I like to wear skirts and cami tops. I am, in short, occasionally 'a man in a dress'. Gender queer may be a more apt label - though there seems to be some politics enmeshed in that term, and I don't wear women's clothes to make a political statement. I just like wearing nice things.

Oddly enough this is the only forum on the internet where I use my real name.

[Marcelle]

Just going to chime in here again . . . I promise not to rant. When I first started going out I was nervous all the time, afraid people would guess I was a CDer . . . um reality check . . . I am a CDer :doh:. It wasn't until I came to grips with the fact that I wasn't fooling anyone that I could not be comfortable being out.

I am a guy, birth determined, genetically defined. Do I dress like a girl and wear make-up? You bet. Does that magically transform me into a woman? Nope, people look at me and see a dude in a dress/jeans/shorts/skirt whatever. I suspect it is the same for 90 percent of CDers as we all have tells which say "dude". :devil: However, I prefer to dress complete because that is what makes me feel good. Does that make me more afraid to just be myself? Nope because dressing "en femme" is who I am. We owe the same courtesy to our sisters/brethren who prefer to just be themselves in a dress beard and all.

Hugs

Isha

[UNDERDRESSER]

What? That's not even close to what I meant. The few here that would actually transition could probably all fit in my car.
I was merely saying that dudes who wear women's clothes out in public without makeup or with "man head" as they say, are a clear minority of the people who actually post.

If you want to argue that point, you'll have to argue it with someone else.No worries, I'm not arguing that at all. I agree with you that we are in a minority of posters, but maybe not of members, and also maybe not a minority of those are more relaxed about how others show their differences.

[Princess Grandpa]

Hugs to all
Rita

[Amanda M]

It strikes me that a few people here would like to be prescriptive about what is right and what is wrong. For me, what I choose to wear is MY business. I don't dress to shock, but if I see someone in the street with the total drag queen look, then chuckles! That's fun. Or a bearded guy in a skirt - that's fine!

Please don't tell me to fall in line with YOUR expectations with my choice of clothing. And don't do it to others either!

[trisha kobichenko]

I have always felt, and feeling is the operative word here, that gender identification is a place on a spectrum of opportunity. Am I 'totally male', am I 'totally female'...do I need to choose one or the other? No, I am somewhere on the spectrum, dressing and behaving as I feel on any given day. Some days a girl, some days a guy, some days somewhere in between. Am I accepted in society where I land each day... and who I choose to be... probably not. Is that my problem? Not so much. Am I a 'man in a skirt'? Depends on who you talk to I guess.
Love to all,
Trisha

[donnalee]

Wow! It seems as though mine and other's comments brought this discussion to a very interesting place. My main concern is with people's innate rights to do what they want as long as they do not harm others. I am in favor of gay marriage, absolute separation of church and state and all of the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution.
"If we do not hang together, we shall certainly hang separately." -Benjamin Franklin on the eve of the American Revolution. Journalist, publisher, author, scientist and revolutionary.

[jjjjohanne]

What I do:
I present male. When I get an opportunity, I will wear all women's wear. Normally a skirt, top, hose and shoes. Sometimes I wear heels. No breasts, no purse, no wig or makeup. I wear clothes that are similar to what I wear in boy-mode. No flowers or lace. Normally plain colors. Knee length skirts. I do not think I try to be in-your-face about things. At least, I hope I don't...

Where I have worn a skirt in public:
I have gone out to the mall and other stores. I have eaten at a restaurant a couple times. A hair cut once. Flown pretty. Gone to the bank. I have attended a TG meeting once. I attended a couple meetings that was in no way crossdressing related.

My motivations:
I have never wanted to be a girl, except when I was a kid and I thought that was the only way to be allowed to wear girls' clothes. I used to only dress up in the house. I started getting the urge to go out. Those urges keep pushing me farther out. When I was in public wearing shorts and hose, I would be disappointed if no one noticed. But I believe it is correct that I do not want to be shocking. I suppose if you are not interested in ever going back to the same place again, then you are more interested in shock value.

My experiences:
Most people try not to stare. Some people nudge their friends to get them to look. Most people move on after getting their look. Two times has someone laughed out loud at me. Once a store clerk told me she preferred how I did not try to present female. I tried to explain to her that for some CDs, becoming a girl was what it was all about. For me it was just about the clothes and the feeling of them.
When I have had a reason to interact with someone, they were professional with me. Almost no one seemed to be disgusted or offended. After they soak in my appearance, I think they only react to my personality afterward.
People will say "Hi" in response to me. Seldom (or never) will the general public initiate a greeting. Twice did someone approach me in a store for help because I was wearing a lanyard. (It was holding my keys and money -- no pockets or purse.) My skirt did not keep them away.
I have never had any negative reaction on this website. I have only had people on this forum say they do not understand why I would dress up without presenting female. That is a decent response.

Moral of the story:
None.

[larry07]

What a fascinating thread. Over time I have observed an increased acceptance of gay men and lesbians, to the point that in my community they are (almost) fully accepted with no issues or second looks. Now the attention is on transgender people (which to most of the general public means people whose body does not match their actual gender and are usually somewhere in the process of transitioning). TG folks may be thought of as somewhat unusual, but are generally accepted and given some level of respect. Genderqueer or nonconforming people are just beginning to be recongnized- many don't yet realize that we exist. I think that many people think that the T (trans) in GLBTQ refers only to those who are transitioning, not aware that many of us are quite content as we are.

Personally, I fit somewhere in the genderqueer spectrum. I don't understand my own preferences and motivations, so don't expect anyone else to do so. I consider myself male, have male body parts and features, though my hips are fairly wide for a man. I'm not much of a sports fan and find that in mixed groups which tend to separate by gender I find the women's conversations more interesting that the men's. I usually wear a mix of clothing- women's underneath and outerwear often women's but not obviously so. I love wearing skirts and think that a good fitting skirt can be more flattering to my body type than many pants, but rarely will wear a skirt outside the house. I wear a bra with moderately sized forms as often as possible and will wear them in public more often than I will wear a skirt, though not around friends or acquaintances. I have briefly experimented with wigs, makeup, etc and not found them to be something I want to use. I guess that I would fit in the man in a skirt category, but in my case is more often man in a bra. (I know it doesn't make sense, but there it is).

It seems to me that those of us who present as male, but with some traditionally female attributes, are the last frontier of general public acceptance and understanding, even among some CD'ers. In some ways it seems to me to be more honest to present as male, wearing some female clothing, than to go all the way and still not be fooling anyone, but I respect anyone's right to dress and present as they choose.

[mechamoose]

I'm reminded of the kinds of acceptance that Bi people used to (still?) get from full-on gay folks.

Essentially: "Make up your mind!"

I'm hearing similar echoes here from some folks. Not that anyone is trying to be mean, it seems to me like its a genuine lack of understanding.

I socialize better with women than with men. I don't like team sports. I always wear jewelry and I swap it around all the time. I'm the cook. I'm the manners-nanny with my kids. I'm the one who selects the drapes and hangs the pictures. Most 'regular guys' and I have very little in common.

I think/feel differently than someone who has GD. I don't feel 'trapped' in the wrong body per se. Both male & female are present to an extent and I try to express that. If you really are a girl in a guys body, its a different experience for you.

- MM

[devida]

What an interesting thread! I am very pleased to see this community discussing this issue. I identify as non binary, femme and trans. I am not transitioning. I am not male. I am not female but I am more female than male. The way I dress in public is a reflection of my gender identity. I am not trying to pass as a woman because I am not a woman. I do not dress as a man because I do not see a man when I look in the mirror. I am more feminine than masculine and so I dress in more feminine than masculine clothes. As my wife points out on a regular basis I am also not a cross dresser. I am transgender. My clothes and my presentation reflects my androgyny, and frankly, always have. My mannerisms, my patterns of speech, my gestures and even the way I think are not really masculine. They are more feminine. I am routinely mistaken for a woman on the phone. The house we rent is on the market and we have potential buyers and real estate agents coming through frequently. My wife and I are quite commonly referred to as women by both the agents and their clients, which my wife finds hilarious. I am not wearing a dress when this happens. I don't wear a dress in public because I live in a little town and I feel a lot of compassion for the extreme difficulty people have in understanding the varieties of gender. I will certainly wear a dress in public in a city and I will certainly not be trying to pass as a woman any more than my wearing mostly femme clothes suggests I'm trying to pass now. I hope that the conversation on this thread will help those of you who have difficulty in understanding why some of us are not interested in presenting as a woman or trying to pass as a woman will be enlightened to the fact of gender variability. This is quite the most serious problem I face with interacting on this site, the difficulty some cross dressers have with recognizing that the transgender umbrella includes many shades, including gender fluid, bigender, androgynous, non binary and many, many different modes of presentation, including men with beards in dresses.

I know this website is crossdressers.com but I also read the warnings the moderators loud and precise statements about the absolute importance of including all the gender variants. I really hope that the minority of members who do not understand the reasons that a person defined male at birth (dmab) but who rejects that gender identification and yet does not choose to present fully as a woman will be able educate themselves. I am personally happy any time to explain this in as much detail as anyone would like and the resources on the internet for understanding gender fluidity are just awesome. I certainly understand why men who define themselves as male and heterosexual want to present and pass as women and I know that most people are completely baffled by that wish. This is because they have not been educated to understand the variability of gender identification and gender expression. There are important historical but no longer really relevant social, political and economic reasons for binary genders. For someone like me and an increasing number of people considerably younger than me this binary gender insistence is oppressive and a violation of our human rights. Fortunately the world is changing. Requiring that dmab trans people present fully as female is a form of binary gender oppression that only recently has been partially eliminated as medical and governmental policy in this country and is unfortunately still true in most of the world. I would hope that on this forum we would understand that it comes from the same place of ignorance that has allowed the incredible violence that has often greeted transgender acts as innocuous as cross dressing.

I would also like to counter the charge that asserting our rights deprives others of theirs which is what the statement that people like me are pushing our views on others actually states. I am sorry but this argument, hauled out every time any type of minority or non conforming group asserts their right to exist, has no plausibility whatsoever. I am not telling anyone else how they must dress, live, talk or walk. I am asserting that the same courtesy must be shown towards me. I have the right to express my gender with precisely the same power as any cisgendered male or female. Cisgendered, by the way, is a term that just means that a person is content with the gendered defined for them at birth. It is increasingly being used because of its precision. Thank you in advance from refraining from using the distasteful and oppressive argument that the assertion of a widely recognized human right, the ability to define one's own gender, is somehow depriving others of their rights.

[sometimes_miss]

so to belabour a point, why would a man in a skirt be disgusting!
Unfortunately, you're speaking from the choir, to the choir, all in the pink fog.
and then there's:

Do we really think John Q Public looks any differently if were made up and presenting nicely vs walking around with a beard or whatever? If they are accepting and tolerant they accept us and tolerate us. If the aren't they don't.
and the pink fog hits, and:

I doubt very seriously if they see a difference at all.
Please, everyone, don't let wishful thinking and spending so much time here and dressed as a female, that you really believe the rest of the world really thinks you're normal. That day may come, but it's not here yet.

[Kiltie]

I'm lucky. I'm Scottish and wear kilts every day. I started when I was 5 and carried on. I used to really envy the girls in their skirts and school knickers back in the 60's so it was a stroke of luck that boys used to wear green/navy blue or maroon knickers under kilts to match the kilt tartan colour.
I'm sure I would have cd'd if it hadnt been for the kilt being accpetable here and the fact that I really loved the pleated style and how it behaved when I walked and sat etc etc.

[Ellie52]

I'm lucky as well in the fact I live in Perth Australia and as we are so close to Indonesia, Sarongs are quite popular. My wife made me some silk sarongs that I wear around the house and garden. The neighbors have seen and don't care. Ive been to the local shops and nobody bothered. I've been to hotels wearing them. Even my son (who is 21) and his mates have all seen me and don't give a damn. I usually wear a ladies vest with the sarong skirt with panties underneath and ballet flats or black skate shoes. This means I am totally dressed in women's clothes but as a male and I get away with it.
Im not really bothered with the makeup, boobs and wigs like many others here so the Sarong/vest combo is great for me..

[mechamoose]

Regional clothing is regional.

I'm envious of societies that just don't have the same hangups as the Western World. I'm of Scottish extraction, and I own a casual kilt and a "Full Dress Kilt" with the shoulder wrap. It feels GREAT, but.. it's men's clothing. Nobody, even tragically het guys, accept it without blinking.

While its the same form, it isn't the same mode.

I'm not looking to pick a fight, just stating what I see.

- MM

[Bryn]

Yeah, I don't think society as a whole distinguishes anyways. With my "normal" friends, the most passable trans woman in the world is "a man in a dress". A drag queen is "a man in a dress". A crossdresser with unshaved legs and a beard is one and the same. They're not even aware there's a difference.

It's annoying and a bit sad, but the important thing to me is that they accept the existence of "men in dresses". People will be more educated after that happens.

[annecwesley]

The most passable trans woman in the world is a man in a dress. It's just that he is better disguised as a woman than others of us. If I could really pass I would probably try simply because I would have more freedom to dress in my favorite styles and fabrics in public without feeling that I'm drawing attention to myself or that someone I know might see me and I'd be embarrassed by my attire. Since I can't adequately masquerade as a woman I've taken to dressing in my most feminine clothing at home and wearing skirts occasionally in public - and more frequently on private walks.

Doing the public man-in-a-skirt thing has been an interesting challenge; I would suggest that more crossdressers try it. It's quite a lot of fun trying to get a less-than conspicuous "masculine" look out of a skirt. You start with a kilt.. and of course who is to know what you're wearing underneath.

[Bryn]

The most passable trans woman in the world is a man in a dress. It's just that he is better disguised as a woman than others of us.

Well that's true but I still think more people should be aware that there's more than one reason why a man might wear a dress and that there's distinctions between these types of people.

[Rhanda]

I'm new here but not new to CD. This thread discusses many of the things that I have working in my life. I have worn some makeup most of my adult life and as a handsome teen. The girls in the forties were just starting to wear makeup and generally overdid it. I cuold were it lightly and was not noticed in contrast.

Today most women wear less and look fantastic. This is my goal when making up to not look madeup but fantastic.

I don't want to be mistraken for a woman but like some of the styles that women wear today and wear some of them without thinking about looking like a different gender (Thus really crossdressing). Some of my closest friends have noticed this and spoken of it but accept my expression in style.

I haven't worn or even owned a skirt or dress but hope to buy a pencil skirt soon. I really like the look with a pair of heels. I wear heels all the time, even when I'm in a business suit. That is because anything else just isn't comfortable.

My point is that all other minorities are getting what they want these days. now is the time that men can claim some of the women's styles. It's time to break out. I did it many years ago.

Rhanda

[Katey888]

I may have further useful comment later in the thread.
I hope it does not degenerate into a squabble.

I think you can come back in now, Bev, and you can pick up the CD.COM award for experienced inspired prescience on the way in.. :)

Secret started this discussion with an OP that finished with this phrase that must seem impenetrable to some: "The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in."

Some fascinating discussions, debates and counter-debates... can't we all just condense this to one simple mantra...?

Live, and let live...

How hard can it be to do that without needing to 'understand' every individual's, individual motivation for doing what they feel they need and want to do...? :facepalm:

I think this is being over-rationalised and over-thought again.... So I am turning for solace to another trusty margarita... Skol, Secret!

Katey x

[Anna H]

This is just out of the most innocent of curiosity....I'll never have a
more relevant chance to ask....:happy:

Here at a MTF place...I have a habit of saying "Hi ladies!" at times.

Does the guy in the dress prefer "he"...or "she" ?

(I'll no doubt get it wrong at times...please overlook that...)

:)

[Wildaboutheels]

***Does the guy in the dress prefer "he"...or "she" ?***

Do the "men" here who have chosen FEmale handles prefer to be called he or she?

It's quite likely the same difference to most men who choose to color outside the lines.

[Anna H]

Do the "men" here who have chosen FEmale handles prefer to be called he or she?


In that case...things are plainly obvious. In other cases....are they so clear?

[Mickey M]

My goal with my CDing, is to blend in to
society and only be noticed as a well dressed
and made up women. I'm not gay but love a
second look from a man. Makes my feel more
Femm

[Jason+]

This is just out of the most innocent of curiosity....I'll never have a
more relevant chance to ask....:happy:

Here at a MTF place...I have a habit of saying "Hi ladies!" at times.

Does the guy in the dress prefer "he"...or "she" ?

(I'll no doubt get it wrong at times...please overlook that...)

:)

This particular man in a dress is happy enough with he although the rare but occasional she doesn't hurt my feelings any.

[natcrys]

Frankly, I am flabbergasted by many of these replies. How could people who want so much to be understood and accepted deny that to someone else? Opinions are one thing, outright hostility (and most of those replies are extremely hostile) are entirely out of line.

"Those who who would give up their freedom for a little temporary security will get (and deserve) neither." - Benjamin Franklin

To seek acceptance while not being accepting falls much into the same category.

↑↑↑ This! I had already chimed in in this thread a few days ago.. but I too have been reading the replies with amazement and perhaps a slightly rising blood pressure..

What is so hard about letting everyone dress the way they want to??? <-- (Yes, I think this warrants three question marks!)

Sure, a lot of us dress as feminine as possible, or try to be as passable as possible (both guilty as charged).. but some of us don't. Some just want to wear a skirt.. who are we to ask about the fundamental reasons when we don't even understand the "standard crossdressing" ourselves?

If someone says they like the feeling or the colour.. then so be it.. if they say "I just like it".. that should be perfectly fine too!

We're all on this boat together.. and while I realise that I was relatively lucky in the genes department and am able to pass in a quite a few situations,... I'll be damned if that stops me from hanging out in public places with friends who don't pass as well and/or friends who don't aim to pass and just want to wear what they want!

/rant


What I do:
(....whole story...)

Moral of the story:
None.

Okay, I LOL'ed! :D

[mechamoose]

I will say that I understand the goal of a lot of folks here is to blend, which I think is fabulous.

I will say that I have had my questions about linking up with some of you ladies socially. Not because of shyness, but out of my being a big red flag in the middle of a bunch of otherwise 'blending' women.

I don't want to disrupt the hard work you all put in. :/

- MM

[sanderlay]

Does the guy in the dress prefer "he"...or "she" ?

Good question.

Many persons prefer gender neutral terms. Even saying guy is gendered. So replacing [-]guy[/-] with person works best. So unless you know for sure, they tell you, I would refrain from assuming their gender. They may not even like [-]he[/-] said or [-]she[/-] said. They said or works best and is gender neutral. [-]He/she[/-] is not recommended.

Gendered speech is certainly very common. I have been using it my whole life. But I have made an attempt in my own life to use gender neutral terms. I do slip up a lot but I'm trying to be sensitive.

Search for "gender neutral terms" and you will find websites about this subject.

For myself on this forum... You may call me sanderlay, Debbie or Steve. Any of these work fine. You may say he or she also, but I do prefer gender neutral terms.

[Mink]

I will say that I understand the goal of a lot of folks here is to blend, which I think is fabulous.

I will say that I have had my questions about linking up with some of you ladies socially. Not because of shyness, but out of my being a big red flag in the middle of a bunch of otherwise 'blending' women.

I don't want to disrupt the hard work you all put in. :/

- MM

I've always had this problem / concern too

the wish to meet up with others but feeling like i'd be too out of place or shunned for not going the whole hog!

I wouldn't want to embarrass anybody and I wouldn't like to feel like some sort of outcast mutant either!

[freeindress]

Well that's true but I still think more people should be aware that there's more than one reason why a man might wear a dress and that there's distinctions between these types of people.
This is the point of my CD'ing, advertising that I am not TG and do not enjoy counterfeiting a woman, but I'm androgynous enough to pull a feminine look: I do not wear makeup or wig, shave my beard and take care of my facial skin, maybe shave legs too, keep thin hair on arms and hands (naturally hairless chest and back), grew small natural breasts (on my narrow chest that did not widen when I was a teen) that are needed under a dress or a feminine top, wear feminine flat shoes that match my thin legs, no jewellery except a crystal pendant.

[Wildaboutheels]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?205712-Q-for-the-MisFits/page2

[Madie]

I'm an mtf and I have a few friends that crossdress (to various extents). I support that they have an activity they enjoy, and know they do it for various reasons. Before coming out as trans I only "crossdressed" ONCE, and did not enjoy it. Personally it made me feel bad, like I was a "Man in a dress" and this was because of discomfort/dysphoria with my own male features (most likely aided by the fact it was done pretty badly haha). To me there's absolutely nothing wrong with cross-dressing, and if you enjoy it, more power to you! To each their own.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi SD, To each his own , But for me it's all or nothing.

[Gigi9]

Just putting my 2 cents in.
I wear women's clothes. I like looking pretty and smelling pretty, even jewelry. Won't shave though. Makeup seems like too much work for no results considering my facial hair. I like my beard and so does my wife. I once got rid of a girlfriend because she wanted me to shave and I haven't in years. That said, I like this forum and enjoy the give and take of it. It is refreshing to be able to even talk about dressing and the various shades of men who wear dresses. I like talking to such men, I like looking at them, I like thinking about what looks good on them and "might it look good on me?" type thoughts. It is a great thing to have such a place. Thanks to you all for that! I have enjoyed this thread immensely, thanks to all who took time to add their thoughts.
Gigi

[Tina G]

Very good read and i agree with a lot of what has been said here. to each his own :)