My boss saw my bra strap...

[jordyn.wayne]

So i was sitting in my bosses office for a meeting, he noticed the telltale bump on my shoulder and said that there are a number of really good diversity programs within the company, let me know if you need any help accessing them.

[Erica Grace]

Wow I can not imagine that ever happening to me. He didn't say anything more after that?

[Tracii G]

Check into them.I would just for legal protection if any problems come up with co workers.
Seems he is in tune so to speak.

[mechamoose]

Good that he saw that and responded that way!

[Annaliese]

It depends on how you feel about it, do you want to transition, it nice you have options and you know your boss is open minded.

[jordyn.wayne]

Just as soon as I discovered that the little company i worked for was being absorbed by a coporate giant, i hopped on the interwebs to do a bit of research, its been a year and a half since then. I have been taking advantage of a number of the programs privately without my direct management knowing, they even have an approved method of coming out at work, if thats ever wanted. I have met a number of people who have transitioned on the job, had surgeries paid for etc. Not only is he understanding... but he is required to support me any way he can without impacting the business.

[JoiFemm]

Sounds like a pretty good place to work!!

[Leslie Langford]

Be very careful before you take your boss up on that offer, jordyn...it may just be a tactic to "out" you, and then you will be at his mercy and that of your H.R. Department in the event that they then see you as someone they do not wish to see in their employ anymore because of the added complications your gender issues would present to them. Sure, there are plenty of laws these days to "protect" us, but also an equal number of creative ways to get around them if one wishes to do so.

After 30-odd years in the Corporate world, I learned two things the hard way:

(1) Despite all the "warm and fuzzy" talk, H.R. is NOT your friend. Their No. 1 loyalty is to Upper Management, and they will twist themselves into the shape of a pretzel to accommodate them, especially when it comes to questionable requests or the implementation of unethical practices or behavior. And Upper Management's master is The Bottom Line. Everyone in the Corporation is subservient to that, and anyone who gets in the way or jeopardizes that quickly becomes a persona non grata

(2) Nothing - and I mean nothing - that you tell H.R. "in confidence" stays there any longer than it takes you to leave their office and shut the door behind you. If you say anything that is at odds with the company's mission or Corporate culture, they will rat you out to Upper Management in the blink of an eye...after all, doing so will be a feather in their cap and prove to Upper Management yet again their "worth" to the organization as well as unquestioning loyalty.

Sorry for the cold shower, jordyn, but I speak from experience, and I am not about to sugar-coat some of these "inconvenient truths" that people often don't want to admit to regarding the ethics of today's cut-throat Corporate world, and where people are now generally considered to be expensive and expendable liabilities ...

[sherri]

Seriously? There are a number of people where you work who have transitioned? Either they actively recruit tgs or there's something in the water. :-)


FYI, as you probably know, most companies' tg diversity programs are geared for those who are transitioning or wish to, not for crossdressers. Unless you're ready for the bit T, I wouldn't count on a lot of warm and fuzzy.

[Rogina B]

I was thinking the same thing as Sherri....there is a big difference between having a bra on at work and changing genders in the workplace..

[larry]

Leslie speaks volumes of truth about HR ! I have seen it personally..

[kimdl93]

I would take your bosses comment as an indication of a more supportive environment.

[Katey888]

Jordyn,

On the surface, a positive response from your boss which might be good to say yes to... :thumbsup:

And probably time to at least consult with an employment lawyer and/ or any workforce or union representation if you have that... :)

Never hurts to CYA, IMHO... :D

Katey x

[Stephanie47]

If you're in Texas, if my memory of discussions on this site and elsewhere, Texas is not so legally accommodating to transgender rights. However, if an employer has contracts with the federal government it always looks nice to have a diversity program. From what I have read there is usually a lot more legal protection offered for those transitioning than cross dressers.

[Lorileah]

I was thinking the same thing as Sherri....there is a big difference between having a bra on at work and changing genders in the workplace..

is there? Maybe you can enlighten us. Why is wearing a bra better or worse than transitioning? What part of LGBTQ says you have to be one thing or another? And where does a company get off worrying about what you wear UNDER your clothing as long as it doesn't effect your job? Granted this boss assumed jordyn was probably transitioning.

There was a song in the 60's with the line "Paranoia runs deep." Methinks there are a lot of paranoid people here.

[kimdl93]

Texas may not have a great reputation for tolerance, but there are a good many large national and multinational corporations offices here that are way ahead of the state. Remember the mayor of Houston is a Lesbian. So don't assume too much based on location. A small business in San Francisco might prove to be far less tolerant.

[Laura28]

Just remember when it comes to a company no matter how long u have been there you have a contract with them. You work for two weeks they pay you for the work period. You fulfilled your part if the contract they fulfilled theirs. They owe u nothing more and you owe them nothing more. I never understood why people think a company owes them something more then a paycheck and anything agreed upon at hire. I have worked for the same company in senior management for thirty years if they fire me tomorrow so be it as long as they have paid me what I am owed we are square. That's the real world of corps. Today.

[sherri]

is there? Maybe you can enlighten us. Why is wearing a bra better or worse than transitioning? What part of LGBTQ says you have to be one thing or another? And where does a company get off worrying about what you wear UNDER your clothing as long as it doesn't effect your job? Granted this boss assumed jordyn was probably transitioning.

There was a song in the 60's with the line "Paranoia runs deep." Methinks there are a lot of paranoid people here.Has nothing to do with paranoia. Check it out for yourself. Technically as well as practically, crossdressing does not enjoy the same largesse as transsexuality in most company policies. Fact of life. But by all means, be the first on your block to challenge it.

[jordyn.wayne]

The company i work for has the highest possible score from hrc.org and employs 400k+ people worldwide... it has been on the forefront of diversity since its inception, I'm proud to be a part of it even if I'm not out... All employees have a diversity clause in their contract, I think I'll be ok.

[Sallee]

Here is your chance to come out if you want Even if you don't want HR with a company that size should be cool with what ever way you want to go. They are worth talking with just for cya. Boss sounds cool as long as you are performing

[jordyn.wayne]

No problems in the performance dept... I'm one of the ones they call a golden child. Not to toot my own horn but every dept fights over how to allocate my time because i am so awesome.

[Jamiegirl1]

I work for a huge company,and there have been people who have transitioned to a different gender,I haven't met any of them personally,only heard about,but in a positive way,no-one was saying anything bad about it,the laws protect so many things nowadays if you work for a large company....not so much for a small one....sounds like you would do good to talk to your HR dept,if you want to continue to wear clothing that can be noticed by others,just to make them aware that there may be issues with other employees...

[julia marie]

Having been a manager in big and small companies, and a flunky as well, I have to give your manager credit for being subtle, and, i believe, supportive. Even if you aren't thinking about transitioning or doing fulltime CD, it wouldn't hurt to speak to someone in the employee assistance program (you can ask HR for a contact, you wouldn't deal directly with HR), which often is outside the realm of HR itself. That could lead to some form of awareness initiative helping people to understand that CD is a real life thing. That could take years to show results, but it at least get the ball rolling.

[Amy Fakley]

No problems in the performance dept... I'm one of the ones they call a golden child. Not to toot my own horn but every dept fights over how to allocate my time because i am so awesome.

Hmm .. I've been there, done that. Took a long while, but it didn't end well.

If your company is going through mergers, acquisitions and the like please remember this: all your hard work and dedication amounts to building the nicest, best sand-castle on the beach. It will wash away with the tide eventually ... and when mergers are happening together, the tide changes rapidly and without warning. Your understanding boss today, probably will not be your boss in 6 months, nor his boss ... or his bosses boss for that matter.

Diversity clauses mean nothing to the new company. You didn't sign on with them, you signed on with the old company and they may no longer legally exist ... or at the very least have some serious wiggle room for bending the rules and not necessarily in your favor.

Be careful about outing yourself at work, if it is not your intention to completely own it and live 100% out n' proud. Every company in the world is full of very small people who do not give a damn about anyone but themselves and their friends, and when you have two or more companies are forced to merge, there are power struggles and back biting that amount to middle-school lunch-table politics on steroids ... except with people's ability to feed their family on the table. It gets seriously nasty, and quickly.

The people you work with NOW sound kind and understanding, and don't at all sound like the kind of people who would use this knowledge about you as a weapon ... perhaps to get rid of you to preserve a spot for someone they've worked with for the last 20 years who would otherwise be out due to the merger. That's the people you work with today. This WILL change.

[ChristinaK]

I really hope this works out for you, as Leslie is correct, H.R. is not your friend. You have placed yourself in a vulnerable position, but we would love to hear a happy ending to this story. What would it be like to show your true self at work without fear of reprisal?

[lingerieLiz]

I find it disappointing for some to assume the worst. Had the manager wanted to create an issue about jordyn wearing a bra he could have done so. With a company which has 400K workers there are not many companies that are going to take them over. Having experience in doing mergers and acquisitions for major corporations I can tell you that weeding out gays, TGs or any other group is not part of the agenda.

As for HR some are bad but most are good and there to assure that company goals and policies are maintained. I've found that most people in HR are very employee oriented. That is why they wanted to work in that department.

[Diversity]

Sounds like you have a good boss. Count yourself lucky.
Di

[laura.lapinski]

I don't know if Texas is an "at-will" employment state like California is, but if it is, they can fire you for not making the coffee right in the break room. This was told to me by an attorney. Unless you can prove that they do something against the law, you won't have a case (if your fired that is). Everyone is correct about HR not being your friend. They aren't. HR reports to the CEO in most companies, and that is exactly where any information about you will go. They are a lap dog for the CEO. I've seen it many times, and lived it too.

[giuseppina]

...There was a song in the 60's with the line "Paranoia runs deep." Methinks there are a lot of paranoid people here.

My psychiatrist says the diagnosis of paranoia is disqualified once fact enters the equation.

There are too many transgender individuals fired for being transgender.

It's very easy for an employer to fire someone they don't like for performance reasons: keep a file containing the mistakes the employee makes.

[mechamoose]

Depends on the company, laura.l. Smaller places are probably more prone to this than larger ones.

My only point is that I have seen HR departments do the *right* thing for LGBTQ employees. It isn't a given that they are not going to help you. They are often in a position to help *Management* understand how to handle the employee's special considerations.

- MM

[Ms. Alexis]

All the warm fuzzies aside you know where you work and if you have been a CD etc. for any length of time you should have developed some pretty sensitive antenna's... Use them. If you feel the general reaction to you coming out would be negative or negatively impact the company in any way from cohesion to public image or anything else I would do a reality check and self check, it may save your career. Even your boss may do the right thing at first, but if it impacts the bottom line or his/her having to deal with other workers and manager's having issues with it they will likely drop you like a hot potato out of self preservation. The flip side of that is that you know your organization and it's culture and it may be absolutely OK but the Odds are very much against it.

[flatlander_48]

There was a song in the 60's with the line "Paranoia runs deep." Methinks there are a lot of paranoid people here.

Lots of very strong images in that song that are still true today...

For What It's Worth
Performed by Buffalo Springfield
Written by Stephen Stills

[Deedee Skyblue]

There was a song in the 60's with the line "Paranoia runs deep." Methinks there are a lot of paranoid people here.

I am sad when I see the first response to a nice gesture is 'Be careful - he's trying to trap you.' My favorite description of the current state of society in the US is 'No good deed goes unpunished'. That makes me sad, too.

Deedee :(

[flatlander_48]

On the subject of diversity groups, affinity groups or employee resource groups, they are not all created in the same way. In some companies, the LGBT group made have little or no direct ties with the company. Some groups have been created entirely outside of the corporate structure probably because there was a fear of possible repercussions. Others, like at my company, were created within the same framework as the other affinity groups. We have an upper management official who is our sponsor and we have a budget. Over the years we have been successful in having company officials write letters in support of ENDA, GENDA and same sex marriage.

I would caution against the assumption that all HR folks unhelpful and useless. Clearly they usually do favor the corporation in what they do. That's a big part of their existence. However, our company is very sensitive about its public perception. Folks work very hard not to damage that. Plus, although our workforce of maybe 35,000 is spread around the world, we are based in a small town. News travels fast and bad news travels even faster.

More could be said about this, but every situation is different. Check the experiences of others to understand what the real situation is.

[jordyn.wayne]

Not only do the programs in our company, have budgets, executive sponsors etc, but the exec sponsors are active members and most are lgbt themselves.

[Melissa in SE Tn]

Pardon my ignorance as I must live & work in the dark ages . It is great to read that companies are opening up to the cd portion of the LGBT acronym . I would live to read & learn more from others. Peace, mel

[TxCassie]

It was good to see what your supervisor said Jordyn. Though, I do believe he came very close to the line by saying anything to you based upon a mere sighting of a bump under your clothes. You know your company of course and its culture. But be very careful, Texas is a "Right To Work" state and that leaves the employee very vulnerable in most cases. If your company has a policy and procedure manual that addresses GLBTQ issues, then so much the better, because before any adverse action is taken, and the "Right to Work" privilege is used, they must follow their own internal policy and procedure. With that said, that doesn't mean the company will follow their own policy and procedure manual if they want do take action against you. They very well will try to disguise the adverse action with another policy and procedure so they can circumvent the policy and procedure they know they are violating or do not wish to follow.

I realize you feel that you are secure in your job, but in today's work environment, even in the best situation, your job security can change in an instant. The comments about HR Departments are correct, be wary of them, use them for information but do not trust them. HR Departments have no interest in promoting or protecting you from adverse action.

I always find it best to keep work related issues at work and my personal life at home. That doesn't mean I am saying to be "In The Closet" at work but I am saying, what I wear under my clothes is not an open a topic for discussion at work by anyone. If your dressing is at a stage where you feel you need to dress in your daily life or if you begin the transitioning journey, then that is another issue. But I feel, at work, be the "golden child" but what I wear is my business alone.

Just a thought, Dear from another Texas gal.

Cassie :love:

[flatlander_48]

I think there is an important distinction to be made here. The issue of crossdressing often isn't really addressed, as such. Companies may be very supportive regarding transgender medical and emotional issues, but as I understand it assumes that you are HERE and you are progressing to THERE. It is not back and forth. I.E. drab one day and drag the next.

That said, it doesn't mean that affinity groups are not good sources of information and support for crossdressers. However, given how little many know about LGBT issues in general, even fewer have an understanding of the concept of crossdressing.

[sherri]

Companies may be very supportive regarding transgender medical and emotional issues, but as I understand it assumes that you are HERE and you are progressing to THERE. It is not back and forth. I.E. drab one day and drag the next.Exactly.

[Connief]

Leslie is right, HR is NOT your friend! At my company, a driver reported our terminal manager being drunk while at work to HR, they called that manager and told him who reported him.

[flatlander_48]

Whoever did that in HR was flat wrong. In our company, if someone wants to report bad or illegal behavior, there are 3 methods:


Talk to someone in your management structure.
Talk to someone in HR.
Talk to someone in an outside 3rd party organization that acts to collect the information (but not personalize it) and pass it on. They have no other function.

[Candice Mae]

I've never really understood why people under dress, and worry after they think someone know or knows. If you are not ready for the consequences of people finding out why do it? Cause in the end people always know, some don't say anything but still know.

[jordyn.wayne]

I never said i was worried about people finding out... I have been under dressing for years... some of the people i work with already know, this is just the first time anybody who didn't know took notice and said anything.

[Beverley Sims]

Well!
Maybe a change of position for you.
It is good to see a forward thinking executive out there.
You could get lucky. :)

[Stephanie47]

I would not make the assumption your manager did not know before he "noticed" the bump. It may not make a difference. I would always make the assumption once one person knows, it will become general knowledge.


I never said i was worried about people finding out... I have been under dressing for years... some of the people i work with already know, this is just the first time anybody who didn't know took notice and said anything.

[Amy Fakley]

Having experience in doing mergers and acquisitions for major corporations I can tell you that weeding out gays, TGs or any other group is not part of the agenda.

Of course it isn't, but it's what happens anyway. Here's why.

Corporations in the midst of an acquisition or merger do not really have an "agenda" ... at least not any that ever gets accomplished beyond "get this mess sorted out by such and such date." What they have, is a lot of formerly isolated groups of individuals each with their own agenda which can be summed up in two words: "self preservation". The bigger the group of people involved, the more true this is. I have personally been through (at least) 20 merger/acquisitions like this and it is the exact same story every time:

the survivors are selected solely by their group affiliation, and by whatever politics are at play that preserve that group.

As a "golden child" (i.e. "individual contributor" ... aka "not management" ... aka ''someone who actually performs work that needs to be done"), you will have absolutely zippy control over that situation beyond one thing:

being able to fit in with the right group.

announcing your trans-ness at work, if this is not going to be an absolute out-in-the-world 100% identity that you carry everywhere with you in your life, is like shooting yourself in the foot in this situation.

As I said earlier ... the world is full of small people who only need a plausible excuse to exclude you for the sake of including another. The same could be true of outing other things that are considered abnormal in your part of the world ... being super-nerdy sci-fi convention guy ... going to the wrong church ... belonging to the wrong political philosophy ... the list goes on.

If you want to survive long term in an industry that's doing M&A's every couple years: keep your head down, do good work, make lots of friends, and be keenly aware of the cultural context you exist inside of ... and be very careful not to freely advertise the ways in which you do not fit into it (unless you intend to take that fight to the streets -- and you think you can win).

[devida]

I would like to point out that this was just a kinda nice statement by your manager. Unless you said that you were cd or ts or trans you really can just say that it wasn't a bra. It was just a posture supporting brace which you use because you have really bad posture. This is the excuse I usually use with my (usually female) friends who hug me but who I think would have difficulty with my identifying as trans. I am proud of being trans but many people just don't need to know and they would find it disturbing. Your boss may fall into this camp. If, in fact, you do want to tell your boss you underdress please understand that despite many of the comments on this thread crossdressers, transexuals, genderfluid, bigender, non binary and many other gender variants are considered transgendered by law and HR departments. You do not have to be transitioning to be afforded the protections given to the transgendered. You just have to identify as trans and despite the reluctance of many cross dressers to so identify themselves cders are included in the definition of transgender. I assure you that if your corporation has a transgender friendly policy they do not distinguish the many flavors of transgenders.

[celeste26]

This exactly why I have waited so long to come out. I have no boss right now just a monthly check from my retirement funds and lots of time to enjoy it.

[Rogina B]

I think there is an important distinction to be made here. The issue of crossdressing often isn't really addressed, as such. Companies may be very supportive regarding transgender medical and emotional issues, but as I understand it assumes that you are HERE and you are progressing to THERE.

There was no indication ,and has not been since,that the OP is up to anything other than wearing a bra at work. Nothing wrong with that,but it doesn't easily fall under T support policies unless the person is actively in transition..

[mechamoose]

I have mentioned this in other posts what may be a salient point here... If you suddenly make changes in your appearance and behavior at work, that can be a red flag to management. If you want to start bringing 'Her' to work, one of the first steps in that process should be involving HR. They *should* advocate for you.

- MM

[flatlander_48]

There was no indication ,and has not been since,that the OP is up to anything other than wearing a bra at work. Nothing wrong with that,but it doesn't easily fall under T support policies unless the person is actively in transition..

And that is precisely why I made the statement. Someone who is transitioning is actively on a path from one state to another (regardless of having surgery or not). However, that is usually not the case for crossdressers. Depending upon mood and situation we may want to present as one gender or another. However, corporate policies don't allow (as I understand it) someone to go back and forth in presentation. So, to me it raises the question of whether or not there is a desired next step beyond underdressing for the poster. If there isn't, I wouldn't see much point in actually telling people. If there is a next step, there aren't many options.

[alwayshave]

I have mentioned this in other posts what may be a salient point here... If you suddenly make changes in your appearance and behavior at work, that can be a red flag to management. If you want to start bringing 'Her' to work, one of the first steps in that process should be involving HR. They *should* advocate for you.

I'm sorry, but I must disagree. HR is not there as an ombudsman for employees. They do not advocate on behalf of employees. HR is there to hire and fire employees. They are there to reduce civil risk to the employer. While, I believe if you are going to transition, you may have to bring it up to HR for legal (i.e., name change, etc...) Being different, or someone who needs increased resources of a corporation is reducing their effectiveness to the corporation and therefore return on investment. They will fire you if that happens. Especially in right to work states.

[mechamoose]

I guess it depends on the company. I work for a global corporation with 5000+ employees.. The local plant manager and senior 'C' level officer and 1/4 of the leadership team are 'friends of Dorothy'. Key people are Hindu and *get* the idea of 'dual-natured'.

So maybe my experience is biased :/

- MM

[DorothyElizabeth]

Were I you, I'd take three actions: First, I'd hire an attorney (do your homework - make sure the attorney is NOT someone with a background defending management) and plop down a retainer, against the possibility of a bad outcome. And I'd tell the attorney exactly what is going on, both with your boss having commented and all you know about the ongoing merger. Second, I'd check into the diversity programs (and make damn sure the boss knew I was doing that) and third, I'd put my "feelers" out against the possibility that I'd have to make a job move. It is much easier to get work if you are employed. The absolute LAST thing you want is to be trying to find work, while you are on unemployment.

[flatlander_48]

I'm sorry, but I must disagree. HR is not there as an ombudsman for employees. They do not advocate on behalf of employees. HR is there to hire and fire employees. They are there to reduce civil risk to the employer. While, I believe if you are going to transition, you may have to bring it up to HR for legal (i.e., name change, etc...) Being different, or someone who needs increased resources of a corporation is reducing their effectiveness to the corporation and therefore return on investment. They will fire you if that happens. Especially in right to work states.

Realize that anything a company might do along the lines of what you suggest is, in many cases, tempered by the possible damage to its external reputation. If the perception is out there that a company has no problem with removing people for less than valid reasons, their recruiting will suffer. News travels; bad news travels even faster. Students talk; college placement officers talk, etc. The next thing you know, you are not invited to campuses to recruit.

[heatherdress]

I agree with those who see this as a very inappropriate red flag. Your boss has no business or right to suggest or assume anything related to seeing a bra strap, or what appears to be a bra strap. If you go to HR or begin an open dialog with him, you will only have yourself to blame if you find yourself isolated, limited in career responsibilities or unemployed. Always - keep private life out of work - always!

Ignore your boss's suggestion. If he brings it up again, or if you are called in by HR to "discuss" what you wear, file an EEO complaint to protect yourself.

Anyone who thinks companies do not eliminate people who they feel are "different" or threatening to the image of the company are naïve. There are many employment lawyers who make a good living representing clients who are let go for vague performance reasons instead of personal behaviors which are different or threatening. Fore every person who has a success story of corporate acceptance, there are probably 10 who have difficulties or hardships.

It is too risky

[Vickie_CDTV]

Call my cynical (I am), but I have to wonder if some government or private entity is leaning on them over lack of "diversity", or they are trying to impress someone (like the HRC), and might see you as a way to help score some kind of political points if you happen to be a TS.

As for HR being your friend, well, as others said, they are not. You are also in a right to work state (as is NY) and you can be fired for any reason at all if they consider you a liability. You might be right and be working for a very tolerant company. I would not risk being able to eat and have a roof over my head based on some corporation's meaningless diversity statement, though.