Another sign of growing acceptance from young people and business sector

[kimdl93]

My son is an engineer with a major industrial company in Minnesota. During one of our regular conversations last night, we were talking about the racial bigotry that persists in Texas and he mentioned that his company has on openly TG designer...who routinely wears make up and earrings to work and wore a dress to the last Christmas party. My sons reaction is, he's a nice guy, does really good work and his coworkers are generally very accepting. Anyone with a contrary opinion apparently keeps it to themselves.

As my title suggests, this is another example of the growing tolerance of gender variants in the workplace and the much greater level of acceptance evident among young! well informed people.

Take heart. The future is looking better.

[sherri]

I met a young mtf working at Walmart here in my little town smack dab in the middle of the Bible belt. (S)he was wearing gender-neutral slacks and polo shirt, had long hair styled in a feminine way, light makeup and earrings. I stopped to ask her a shopping question and would have liked to mention our shared gender ID but she didn't really seem interested in engaging. I haven't seen her in there since, but still, quite noteworthy.

[Jorja]

In case you have not noticed...... we are everywhere and most people can not tell the difference! It is Goddess's plan to take over the world. Muhahahah!:)

I have really noticed over the past year or so a huge level of acceptance evident among people! It seems like I have fought for equality most of my life and it is finally starting to happen.

[shawnsheila]

This is very good to hear. It does seem like more and more younger people seem to accept LGBT folks with out so much as a blink of an eye and I am very glad to see the change.

[Beverley Sims]

I agree with what you say Kim and I think racial bigotry has improved too.
In the South especially, I often speak to the people that used to ride in the back of the bus.

[Adriana Moretti]

Today it is alot more visual too with the media..and social media...with guys like Perez Hilton ...Ross Mathews Miss Lawerence and Derek J out there...it is really helping out the ENTIRE community... Miss Lawerence & Derek J rock full makeup on TV.....then theres Rupals Drag Race....somebody is watching these people out there or they would not be on TV . In the bigger cities...It is no big deal at all....

VH1 Did that special on Jessica Who " I am married to a crossdresser".... check it out if you have not seen it..I see programs like this all the time on tv...Barbra Walters did a GREAT one on a 9 year old transgender you SHOULD watch....

http://www.vh1.com/video/shows/full-episodes/cross-dresser-sexologist/1706131/playlist.jhtml

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJw3s85EcxM

[PretzelGirl]

You can just watch the polls swinging wildly into the direction of more acceptance. It is surprising the speed of it as everything in the past has taken quote a bit of patience. It has taken years of pain by many, no doubt. But the progress has been at a intense speed.

[sherri]

I agree there seems to be some progress, but I might hesitate to characterize it as true acceptance just yet. The stigma among the enlightened has lessened, but it's still there.

[ShelbyDawn]

I did a contract for a "major industrial company from Minnesota" last year and we had a very nice lady in transition on our team. The only time anyone took notice was a few congratulatory comments when the company sent out an email letting everyone know that going forward "Bill" should be addressed as "Mary." ( fake names)
Nobody cared and, as you mentioned, were more interested in the high quality work she performed.

[sometimes_miss]

we are everywhere and most people can not tell the difference!
Please, Jorga, please don't feed the pink fog. 90% of us would get 'made' inside of ten seconds. Another 9% in 30 seconds more. Sure, lots don't care, and more are simply polite enough not to say anything or stare. But I don't think for a moment that they don't know. One guy came through work a while ago, wearing just slightly too pink clear nail polish. Every single person mentioned it about him later during the day.
They notice. Yes, they do.

[sanderlay]

Thanks for the wonderful good news. It is a re-affirmation of what I'm seeing as well.

[deebra]

Jorga, you say "we are everywhere" but a lot of the threads on here have said I have never seen another CD. Sometimes-miss thinks 99.9% of CD's are outed in a mili-second. Just wondering how you are able to see so many CD's, personally I've never seen one except looking in the mirror.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

I have heard this before and I agree that acceptance is increasing. While some will argue that it is not acceptance but only people having the politeness to not say anything . . . in a way that is acceptance by non-confrontation. I for one am glad when out and about that people have the good graces to not say anything. Do they accept me? Some may some won't as it is clearly obvious I am a guy. However a truly intolerant person would say something or be confrontational and to date I have only had one such encounter. For the most part people have either been nice or just don't care/say anything. So are we gaining acceptance? Yes albeit at a snails pace but each slow painful step forward is one less required by those who come after us.

Hugs

Isha

[lingerieLiz]

I don't buy that Texas is anymore bigoted than most other states. Was in Missouri recently and it couldn't get much worse. Three months ago I was in a meeting in San Fran and found some attitudes that didn't match with the perceived views of the city. Was in a Toy's R Us in Texas where one of the clerks was obvious mtf and everyone was accepting.

[TxCassie]

:daydreaming::love:I ventured out today to actually do some Cassie shopping in drab mode. Near my neighborhood, there are a couple of vintage stores that I figure, are small, no crowds, hopefully an accepting and friendly SA. I went to the first store, browsed, but didn't really find much, Lovely clothes, but not my size. So, I took off to the second. A larger boutique, more clothes, but many more people. So, I stuck to the boys section, too scary Mary to browse the gal section. But low and behold, a few women's tee shirts mixed in with the boys tees, and one fit!...LOL. I selected a few boys tees, and took four tees, including the one gal tee I found to the counter and the SA rang up the sale.

As she was ringing up the sale, I asked if they carry Women Plus Sizes. She said, some, not a lot, but she did see several items pass through the store regularly. I took a breath and said, well, it would be for me. The SA eyes did the unexpected awareness look but almost immediately, said, Oh, ok, no problem, we have several ... We don't care. Really, it's fine. I know there are still some that don't accept, but it's not a problem here. I smiled, and said, I didn't know your polices and I really would like to shop when it's not as crowded as it was today. She said, Oh, yeah, I understand, come by tomorrow (Sunday) about an hour before we close, it should be very slow, or probably on Wednesday, about the same time.

I told her well, that's great. I said, I really like the jewelry and pointed to the display on the wall, and right away, the lady standing in front of the display, did a quick turn and back. The SA and I chuckled. I asked if they carried any clip on ear rings, she said, sure, but they're mixed in among the hooked rings. She said, to come back Wednesday because Monday, a new shipment of clothes was schedule to arrive and Wednesday will be a good night to shop. I took my package and said, well I guess I will see you Wednesday night. Smiled and left feeling so happy!

So, in some venues, it is getting better, and yes, the SA was in her 20s, and the store itself caters to a younger, college age crowd. You can't beat the prices. I think I found a treasure.

Cassie

[sometimes_miss]

Jorga, you say "we are everywhere" but a lot of the threads on here have said I have never seen another CD. Sometimes-miss thinks 99.9% of CD's are outed in a mili-second. Just wondering how you are able to see so many CD's, personally I've never seen one except looking in the mirror.

There are very, very few crossdressers that can pass; and the closer you get, the easier it is to tell. Even many professional female impersonators don't pass up close. I've come across several crossdressers/TS while I'm working, and when you see up close, there's almost always something obvious that's a dead give away. I work in a public place and see lots of people each day, and when busines is slow, I get to watch the girls; and its pretty simple to tell which are genetic females and which are not. Men and women walk differently because of our anatomical differences, and especially when walking quickly such as during commuting hours, it's easy to pick apart the sexes by the way the bodies move. Virtually every crossdresser makes the mistake of overdoing the female gait when he tries to duplicate it, and then messes it up even further when he tries to walk faster.

edit: see this page as a good moving picture example that shows the differences in gait between the two sexes: http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

[Marissa]

In the world of shopping, I believe its the mighty $ that speaks acceptance :) (my views only..k?) but at the same time, the thoughtfulness of a true SA plays a big part in it, no matter the age.

Acceptance by the young? well, I do agree in part that most are growing up to view "to each their own", some are just trying to figure themselves out without much given to figure out the next person :) And still, those that are caught up in their lives to focus on another (YAH!! social media).

Work place..laws, regulations, fear of lawsuits.. and of course, more accepting employees who judge by the work, not the appearance.

Being a crossdresser, I was able to hear both sides of the 'war' concerning someone who is a TS. Could see how and why various persons had feelings about it all...didn't agree or disagree. I spent time chatting with the woman at various times and she is nice and very professional in her skills of labor so I have alot of respect for her.

Marissa

[Persephone]

I think it is getting way better than ever, certainly everywhere within the U.S. I travel quite a bit, interacting with local folk, and find that pretty much everywhere more and more of 'em don't give a damn about CD's/TG's/Ts's.

I also notice some posts here that seem to combine acceptance with passing. Acceptance is what occurs when someone isn't passing.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Alice-n-wonderland]

Wow, that biomotionlab demo is really cool. There is however like everyone is aware of that there are extremes to everything. Have seen some really masculine ladies as far as their walk. Hardly ever do I see a lady that has a very feminine walk. And when you do you cant take your eyes off of them.

[Shari]

When did this pendulum suddenly swing? Perhaps it's just this thread because things don't change that rapidly.
And don't confuse acceptance with tolerance.

I'm with Sometimes Miss on this one.
The 90 plus percent are very easily read and there still exists an excellent chance you'll get laughed at, beat up, or worse.
Remember the story of the king and his new clothes. Put away the pink fog and use some common sense for heaven's sake!

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Kim ,We are making in-roads little by little.

[sometimes_miss]

I think perhaps one of the real oddball things in this concept, is the media; in the somewhat recent past, there have been several movies, tv shows, etc., where males have crossdressed and suppossedly passed easily as women, 'fooling' all the other characters in the show easily. A few would be 'White chicks', 'Big momma'a house', 'Tootsie', 'Just one of the girls', of course lets not forget Wong Foo, go back for 'Some like it hot', 'Juwanna Mann', 'Mrs Doubtfire', 'Sorority boys', 'Nuns on the run', And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. NONE OF THOSE CHARACTERS WOULD PASS. NONE. It's fiction, but far too many people see stuff like that and think to themselves, 'Gee, they pass so easily, so can I'.
As far as women who aren't very feminine, or don't 'walk' feminine, those aren't the only clues that tell you what sex someone is. Head shape, nose, jaw, neck, shoulder width compared to waist and hips, HANDS & FEET, condition of your nails, wrist size too, curve of spine accentuated by butt, how someone turns their head, what they do with their hair, ear size and shape (LOTS of girls ears stick out because of years of tucking their long hair behind their ears), the list goes on and on. It only takes noticing ONE thing to make you look for the rest.
Oh. And lets not forget voice. I'd estimate that only about 0.1% can do a female voice without ever slipping and giving themselves away. Just go to youtube and listen to the CD & TS 'girls'.
If you haven't started hormones before you've reached puberty, there will be lots of things about you that will quickly give you away. Unless, of course, you remain in the Pink fog! Then you can happily pass forever.

[kimdl93]

My point, lest it be lost in discussions on whether or not a male might pass as female is this: my recent conversation with my son illustrates that in youth culture and corporate settings, gender variants are increasingly accepted...this has nothing to do with pass or not, since in this case the person was not attempting to do so. Rather, it's about how society is changing for the better.

As Barb, Persephone, states above, "Acceptance is what occurs when one isn't passing."

[devida]

Thank you kimdl and Persephone for pointing out that this thread is not about passing but about acceptance. I pay a lot of attention to the way that youth and the fashion industry think because that affects my business and I assure you that everything is changing among college educated youth, the fashion industry and advertizing. For the latter, fashion and business have realized that money is to be made by selling beyond the gender binaries. Although there is still a large group of businesses that sell by gendered advertising, oh you know blue for boys pink for girls, many businesses have started to understand they can make more money by selling across genders. This is being driven by the remarkable relaxation of gender codes among college educated youth, for which we have to thank the effect of gender studies across many disciplines. Change is here and increasing. You can certainly still get killed or harmed for being gender nonconforming. It happens every week in the USA but these are now uncommon incidents and socially disapproved. This is an incredible change from just a few years ago when institutional oppression of transgender minorities was the rule.

[kimdl93]

Btw, I believe that the change gained momentum when Jerry Seinfeld said those immortal words,"Not that there is anything wrong with that." I am telling you all, that simple declaration set in motion tectonic changes in our attitudes towards gender and sexual variance.

[Rogina B]

Going back to Kim's original post..It was all about acceptance! Everyone around the person knew she was trans and they accepted her at face value...Like some others here,I am out in the mainstream every day sometimes in some places and with people that were thought to be behind the curve...People will accept you if you are genuine and own it..don't flinch...what you see is who I am... After acceptance comes inclusion...Tolerence [?]can even be changed to acceptance if you are willing to work at it!

[Jorja]

Please, Jorga, please don't feed the pink fog. 90% of us would get 'made' inside of ten seconds. Another 9% in 30 seconds more. Sure, lots don't care, and more are simply polite enough not to say anything or stare. But I don't think for a moment that they don't know. One guy came through work a while ago, wearing just slightly too pink clear nail polish. Every single person mentioned it about him later during the day.
They notice. Yes, they do.


Jorga, you say "we are everywhere" but a lot of the threads on here have said I have never seen another CD. Sometimes-miss thinks 99.9% of CD's are outed in a mili-second. Just wondering how you are able to see so many CD's, personally I've never seen one except looking in the mirror.

First, allow me to apologies for not getting back to this thread until now. I have been quite busy with work. I do not feel I am inducing the pink fog here. I have been involved with the transgender community for more than 40 years. As most of you know I am not a CDer but TS. I have been going out the door and actually participating in society for the past 35 years as Jorja, maybe longer. I know many, many girls that fall under the transgender umbrella. Most of the time when I am out, they seek me out to say hello when they see me. Yes, there are some that a person can quickly deduct they are really male. However, there are more that you would never suspect if you didn’t know. I would suggest if you are being easily detected, maybe you need to work on your presentation. Maybe it is just the area you live in. Maybe you just haven't been out the door. Whatever the case, we are out there and many of us are doing just fine in this world.

[wanagione]

Kim, I just came back from a conference in Pa. and you are so right. On Saturday a college class came and the kids were great, they where all gender varied and the y were activists on thier campus. I had lunch with several of them and they are such great kids. They are the future, they are smart and talented and they don't care, thier feelings are "just be yourself, you are human, not a boy or a girl, just tell me your story." It was very refreshing, and very nice.

[Claire Cook]

Yes, I think attitudes in general are changing. Perhaps not always acceptance, but certainly tolerance; just consider the changing attitudes about same sex marriage. I did say "in general", since I don't think it's 100% tolerance yet. There more we can do to change aptitudes, the better.

[janetcgtv]

don't accept acceptance is the same as toleration. Toleration is they know who you are and practice live and let live,and acceptance is where they will want to become friends and talk to you. the younger generation is becoming want we want from them and they will send the message to their children as the older generation dies out.

[Rogina B]

And janetcgtv...Inclusion sometimes follows acceptance and is the best part...Have to give to get! If you don't put yourself really out there,you will never know!

[ReineD]

I also see a difference in the younger generation, although I think it's easier to accept when it's arm's length: a neighbor, an acquaintance at school, a co-worker, someone you see on the street, someone you serve in a store on in a restaurant.

But I agree Kim, it's a great deal better than it was a generation ago. Someone mentioned racism as a contrast. This is hugely better than it was in the 60s as well, except there are still issues in some parts of the country, among some demographics. And while we're at it we can say that acceptance of women's authority or expertise in the workforce has improved significantly since the 60s as well, even though some professions and higher management are still predominately male. So I guess we are becoming more enlightened all around! :)

[kimdl93]

It's so true. Even here In Texas. And most of our relationships are arms length.

I can't even imagine being openly TG in the late 60s...maybe the 70s.

[ReineD]

I think that people were arrested if they did that. Wasn't it against the law? And then they used to think that even being gay was a mental illness, let alone crossdressing.

But I'm afraid there are still deeply conservative or religious pockets of people in this country who will lag behind. And unfortunately, they number a great deal more than a small percentage of the population.

[kimdl93]

Oh, that's so true. But I have gone out, rather routinely, in broad daylight, here in Longview Tx, ok, blending, but not passing, and well, either I'm accepted to some extent or I'm so frighteningly intimidating that they avoid confrontation. I really doubt it's the latter, but who knows

[ReineD]

I wouldn't think you'd be intimidating at all, Kim!

[Paula_56]

When did this pendulum suddenly swing?

I noticed a change around the time Chas Bono was on DWTS.

[Rhonda Jean]

I agree that acceptance and tolerance have dramatically increased. I've also seen examples lately of intolerant bigots who have become more and more frustrated and angry at the same time the rest of society has become more tolerant. Those are more likely to be the violent ones. A dying breed, but they'll go down cursing and swinging. Kim, I'll bet there's a sector of the old guard at your son's company that is old-school intolerant. Fantastic strides for sure, and how courageous of her for being true to herself! But, even at this progressive company, has she compromised her possibilities for advancement?

As I'm typing this I just happened to see the Taco Bell commercial where the old guys are sitting on a bench watching the young people eating Taco Bell for breakfast and bemoaning the demise of society. One of them yells to his grandson, "You better not grow a ponytail!". Funny, but not too far from reality.

I've previously posted on here about the young guys who work at Sephora or Mac or Ulta who wear full makeup to work every day. I think that's just the coolest thing ever, but I worry about them, too. When they're at work they're sort of in a bit of a protected environment. I'm not sure they realize the danger outside. Maybe they do, and they're just that brave.

On a side note as an example of baby steps, I frequently wear nail polish in male mode and always look for others who do the same. It's rare, of course, but since I've started looking for it it's been pretty amazing to see how many and who they are. Usually it's just polished toes, but occasionally fingernails. Back about Christmas I saw an older man, probably mid 60's, ordinary-appearing in every way, shopping with his wife in Sam's, with long Jade green fingernails. That's just cool!

[Eselka]

I've never experienced what it was like 30 years ago (wasn't even born ^^), but it's certain that in my social environment (social siences college students) there's a broad tolerance. Not only people don't flinch an eye about gender variants, they actually are very supportive.
A nice example of this possible generation gap comes to my mind : on May 17th (IDAHO), students in a French highschool were officially invited (by the government's department of education, mind you !) to wear a skirt, boys and girl alike, to make a symbolic action against sexism and homophobia. A considerable number of parents and teacher (not all of them fortunately, but still) started a massive protest against the event ("you won't turn our boys into girls", they said), whereas the kids were just happy about the idea and almost everyone participated.