I don't understand

[GypsyKaren]

I could really use some input on this one, especially from all the gg's and spouses out there. Forgive me if I rant a bit, I do feel one coming on. I'm sure by know you've read Tammy's post about her wife thinking about leaving, with dressing being one of the issues. I've been here for almost a year now, and I've heard way to many similar stories, she's either leaving, thinking of leaving, doesn't want to see or know, or has a 'serious problem' with the fact that they now know that their partner is CD,TG,TS, whatever.

First let me say that I'm not trying to trivialize or poo poo this or make it sound like a minor thing. I know it's serious, I know it's a really deep issue, I don't expect anyone to take it lightly or go la-de-da about it. Like I said, I don't understand, maybe some of you can point something out that I'm missing.

My question is why does this have to be such a huge problem, so much so that someone would end an otherwise happy marriage over. I know that I don't know the whole story of people's lives, perhaps there are other issues involved, but I don't understand how a choice of clothing should bring an end to a partnership. Does your partner treat you with love, courtesy, and respect? That's what I've always looked for in someone to share my life with, I never really thought about or cared about my wife's potential choices in underwear. What makes someone you fell in love with become a person to be shunned because you found out they wear panties instead of boxers?

Personally, I don't care if Kat wants to walk around in a scuba suit(as long as it's pink), if it makes her happy and feel complete then I'm happy too. I don't care what kind of underwear she has on or whether she's got on pants or a skirt or whatever, it's the way she looks into my eyes when she tells me that she loves me that I notice or care about. Shouldn't that be enough, isn't that what's important?

If you have a problem dealing with it, why don't you study it and try to understand? I had to tell my wife that I was really a woman, and you know what she did? She went on the Internet, googled 'transgender', and found 25 million things to help her get to know about it. Why can't everyone do that, or pick up a book on the subject, why leave or stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist? Isn't devoting a little time and energy worth saving a relationship or helping out someone you love? Why not try counceling, couples do it over things like snoring to loudly, why not this?

Like I said, I know this is deep stuff. I know a lot of us deceived our wives by keeping it all a secret, but do you see why we felt we had to do it? I don't blame anyone for being angry or disturbed, but you know, I'm sure most of us already feel pretty lousy about doing it, I know I kick myself plenty for not being upfront from the get-go. I'm sorry, we're all sorry, we didn't mean or want to trick anybody, we were just plain scared.

I've gotten to know a lot of people here, for the most part everyone seems pretty decent to me. If anything bothers you, and I mean anything, speak up and talk about it, don't just leave or turn your back.Remember why you fell in love in the first place, if that's still there be happy for it, don't let a choice of clothing get in the way. LOVE, COURTESY, RESPECT! That's what matters, that's what's important, that's the answer to the great riddle of the universe. Anyway, thanks for listening.

GypsyKaren

[DanaJ]

Well, I agree somewhat with you, but I can totally understand a GG's reaction, especially when she doesn't necessarily know anything about CDing, except what she has learned in the mainstream media (which isn't always that great).


Imagine if you came home one day, your wife had cut her hair into a man's style, had a fake beard glued on, completely dressed in very macho clothes - and then announced she has always wanted to be a man, and is now going to live her dreams. Sure, you may (if you are very liberal-minded) say how "anything you want honey" but truthfully, you would miss the feminine girl you married..... and it could eventually take a toll on the marriage. It takes extraordinary people to cope with CDers, on either side.


Just my $.02.....

[Donna tv]

Hi Gypsy Karen, nice thread I did read that problem That Tammy had early this morning it was so sad. But I to will agree with Dana maybe we as CD'ers look at our lifestyles through the perverbial "pink colored glasses" and we shoud be a little more understanding to our spouses feelings maybe they in some cases just need some time to digest as with tamara's case who by the way I think you are the "bomb" , my wife is very supportive but you take it to the next level just my $.03 stamps just went up too LOL
Love you all

[Shannah]

Good points, Dana.

It is understandable, to a degree. Your spouce is supposed to be your best friend and if you've been hiding your cding from her for years, I can see why trust would be questioned. The fact that you're hidding it from her will make it seem more perverse, to her. She'll think, What else is he doing behind my back. Is he really gay, does he want to have a sex change, ect.... womens' imaginations will run wild.

[mistunderstood]

i agree with Gypsy and DanaJ. One hand Love Honor and Respect but also what about the shock of the other person in the marriage. When we make this decision we have to understand that if we our in a relationship it affects both people. We have the right to cross dress but what about the feelings of our loved ones? I think that is were communication comes in.
I wish for all of you to find happiness in what-ever road you choose.

[Sharon]

I agree with the point you made, Karen, with a nod of agreement towards Dana's caveat. What would you do if Kat wanted to be fully male in appearance, including wearing a cod-piece, jock, and false facial hair? It's a fair question to ask and a difficult one to be truly honest about.

I can't speak for GG's as they are the only ones fully capable of replying to you with any first hand experience. However, I can speak for how things were with my wife and I.

My wife was pretty cool with my dressing up, with just a few conditions placed on it (basically, it was to be something I would only do in the privacy of our home or far away from the town we lived in). There were times, however, that she expressed that she wondered why her femininity wasn't enough for me, as if I was only dressing in response to some unfilled need or a lacking on her part. It even resulted in a couple short-lived separations.

She returned to me each time when she was able to recognize that, despite my "faults," that I was still the person she loved and that clothing itself is pretty irrelevant when you get down to it. Those characteristics of mine that she loved were still there. I have learned that this thought process is relatively rare and that my wife was, indeed, a very special woman, but at the time, I occasionally resented her when she would be less than enthusiastic.

It's one thing to have the ability to educate oneself about these things, but it is a far more rare thing to accept and embrace it.

[kathy gg]

Karen you raise some really good points. Dana as well.

*But* This is one of those situations where because your life has happened teh way it has..... it is really hard to understand this from a completely different perspective. I am not saying that you don't make some rock solid points Karen, but your wife is obvoiusly cut from a different mold than Tammys'. That does not make Tammy's wife a bad person, or your wife better, just a different way each sees things.

*BUT* {and this is the big but for some people.} This information , I mean the full disclosure of importance{of dressing}, one's expectations of the wife, and what one considers spousal support are so different from couple to couple.

What one guy needs in order to feel complete/happy/content is simply not enough for another. We see that all the time on this list, some just want their wives to be able to talk about this with them, maybe go shopping, while others want to be intimate this way. I mean this board is full of examples of each guys different needs. I have had several women {from our real life} come to me and say all the things they do to support their husband {and most are pretty gosh darn cool} and yet I have talked to the husband and he complainss that the wife is not supportive enough??? There are some huge problems in perception. Either guys are not saying EXACTLY what they want in order to be happy or they are asking for things which are either making their wives completely uncomfortable or are so far beyong the womans comfort zone they loose all interest in even trying to understand.
When I responded to Tammy's post, I actually delated some things that I wanted to write in, for fear of offending someone. But what I left out was that although I am "into" my hubby being a crossdressser, it is fun, and I am as enthused as one can get...I have some things which I could not deal with. So where one person on list might be saying I am a *dream* wife another would say, well she has too many boundaries, she is not very supportive. And trust me, I have heard both things many times.

Anyway, my point in this post {geez I hope I have one?} is that it sounds to me like tammys wife has tried to -some extent- be supportive, but then Tammy changed what her definition of supportive was. And if I was Tammy's wife I would be thinking, "is this definition going to change yet again in another 2 years, what about 7." Maybe she is just tired of trying to keep up with what is next on the horizon?

When guys keep upping the ante and changing what their definiation of supportive is it gets mighty exhausting for some women who did not even CHOOSE this lifestyle to say "ya know what...I surrender, i give up!! " Giving up then looks a lot better than trying to play keep up with what her husband will need next in order to feed his need to dress.

Yes this is just clothing, but this issue is so much more deeper than clothing.
A power struggel? Possibly. A war or wills? Probably. But defidently not just about clothing.

most sincerely

[Ms. Donna]

When guys keep upping the ante and changing what their definiation of supportive is it gets mighty exhausting for some women who did not even CHOOSE this lifestyle to say "ya know what...I surrender, i give up!! " Giving up then looks a lot better than trying to play keep up with what her husband will need next in order to feed his need to dress.

When I was seeing a therapist for a while, she told my wife and I that it would always be me pushing to 'do more' and my wife pushing back. And while we have settled into what has been a comfortable balance, my therapist was correct: I still do push things from time to time - and my wife pushes back. Only now, I know better how to 'choose my battles'.


Yes this is just clothing, but this issue is so much more deeper than clothing. A power struggle? Possibly. A war or wills? Probably. But defidently not just about clothing.

That was one of the more difficult things I tried to explain to my wife: it wasn't about clothing, it was about being able to express who I 'really' was. And in our society, clothing is one of the most visible and powerful ways to do that.

However, when all is said and done, it is never just about clothing.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[KELLYANN]

THANKS GYPSYKAREN! being a single CD, maybe i should not have much input on this subject. but, i have to agree with KAREN. ones choice of clothing should not come between a loving relationship. but, as said, being single what do i know. my .04 cents worth. a very good rant and rave KAREN. YOU GO GIRL! thats what we all are here for!:hugs:

[Sarahgurl371]

This is a great thread, and all of you have made good points. Believe me, I have thought long and hard about all this.

I understand the lack of trust after my disclosure. Although I feel I have done nothing wrong, (I mean by Cding itself. I have definatley handled it all wrong) She has likened it to me cheating on her. And I know that I would never ever do that. Again, it is all about perception.

KathyGG, I have not read the replies to my thread of yesterday yet. But I wish to address the good points you bring up. Has my perception changed? It most certainlly has. From the initial - i just like to wear women's clothes conversation. A lot of time and miles have past by both of us. There are many other stresses in our lives currently. That can't help.

But over the course of the last 2 or so years, I have really dug deep into myself. I have really tried to understand what it is that I want, need, from my wife. She has every right of full disclosure. I need to know as well. Believe me or not when I say, I have really tried to make our relationship better by disclosing all this. Sure, I would have seen some benefits personally if all had gone my way. But I really thought/think that I have not been honest with myself for so long, and I needed to be. It would clear so much contraversy from my mind, and make me more available to her. I have not been as good a husband as I would like to. I am working on it. I am a very honest person in every other aspect of my life. I needed to apply that to my whole life. Its only fair to her, and to myself.

But actually, I knew that there had to be compromise. I knew that I could not expect to receive everything I have asked for. I was, and am, willing to compromise on what is acceptable. What i cannot compromise on is how I feel inside. That is the issue for me now. Its not dressing. Although, yes dressing is important. What was called in to question was can she handle who I am inside. Now she has always said that I am different that most guys. Now she knows why, and apparently, it makes all the difference in the world. I believe in constanly learning and growing, unfortunatley she just wants to remain in the past. Niether of us is right ot wrong. We are just different. And we must decide if we can live with each other.

[AngGG]

You talk about three things, Love, Courtesy and Respect. And I agree that they matter a lot. What you do not talk about is honesty and trust.

What you are talking about are not just clothes but and essential part of personality and being. You say that this is who you are and want to be accepted, but out of love, courtesy and respect the woman who you choose to spend the rest of your life with she should be given the courtesy of really knowing who you are before the vows are said. (Karen when I say you I do not mean you personally but "you" in a general sense.) If I was totally into domination and withheld it from my spouse until one day I told him that this is who I am and I need to be able to express it should I expect him to totally accept it and even participate in it? Maybe go out shopping for whips with me? Even if this is something that he is adverse to should I keep shoving it in his face day after day because this is who I am? And what if one day playing with him alone is not enough? What if I feel I need to dominate other people as well? Should he accept that also because this is who I am?

Being scared of the reaction from the person you hold above all others is not a justifiable reason to withhold information. This not something that comes and goes, it is an essential part of your personality, One of the many things that make you, you. Trust us enough to see that and make our own minds up. Many of the threads I have read expound on how women are held in such high regard that you want to emulate us. Trust us then to be able to handle truth, we can.

Personally, I have done a lot of research, picked up a book and have tried to understand.. I accept that this is an integral part of my husbands personality and being that needs to be expressed. We do things together and have fun with it sometimes. When I am not in the mood to participate s/he can still dress and enjoy herself. Still I still have my boundaries as to what I can accept and feel comfortable with. And that is not wrong either.

From a lot of the threads I have read it seems that a lot of cd's have that kid in the candy store syndrome. They feed their wives bits of themselves and when she accepts that bit they try for more. This is not necessarily wrong but sometimes you can choke if you eat too much. Most of the women you are talking about entered into a marriage between a man and a woman. A marriage with clearly defined roles. These same women then have their worlds changed, it is no longer a marriage between a man and a woman because while you say it is just clothes, it is not. I am actually a little offended when you say it is just clothes. Personally I see a lot of changes in my spouse when dressed en femme. Not just on the outside but in body language, emotions, facial expression, the way s/he walks, talks, sits and holds herself. Totally different person. Not the same person I married. But still someone that I love.


So while I agree that Love, Courtesy and Respect are important, Honesty and Trust must be in there also.

0.02 :D

[Olivia]

Well, I guess I've just got to add this: Revelations such as this are a shock; there's no doubt about it and they can be difficult(even impossible) to overcome. We all know that's true. That said, if you are starting a relationship with someone whom you want to be with for the foreseable "forever", then please, by all means, find a way to tell them about your crossdressing before the affair goes any further. I just believe that this is the only fair way to deal with it. Some people cannot or will not be able to deal with it, that's true, but the time to find that out is before you've made that long-term commitment. Consider all the sad stories we read about here that result from the discovery by a spouse or SO of their partner's little secret. That devastation can be avoided if you'll deal with the truth as early as possible in the relationship. Please don't take this as a smug put-down; it's not. It is a way of avoiding the considerable hurt that will inevitably result. Olivia

[terza]

kathy (gg) really captured what i thought about and some
i did not considered, and i am in big agreement with her points.

in addition from her points, i like to add that it seems
that alot of CDers, by their own admissions, chose
their "conservative" spouse for reasons to "turn away from"
the CD path, yet (CDers) are disappointed in not being
accepted -- the spouses were never intended for acceptance.
in a sense, the unhappiness is by design. nevertheless,
the relationship was built on some other strong (and overt)
commonality.

by following my train of thought, begs the question that
are CDers who have conservative spouses, are in complete/close
accord with their spouses in conservative views, save issues
that are TG by nature? the reason why i think it is important
to ask this is that common values is essential in all close
relationships, and more crucial in intimate ones.
if my thoughts have merit, then there is a paradox of
incongruence in personal values -- conservative values
(shared with your spouse) coming head to head with TG
values, that is undeniably liberal.

i'm not saying that contradictory values cannot co-exist in
oneself -- i, like alot of people, cherry pick values to suit MY
NEEDS -- but mostly become unworkable in a interpersonal setting.
in a sense, it is unfair to ask a spouse to "cherry picking"
acceptance of TG issues to suit a CDer NEEDS and not her OWN.
i like to give the example of an expectation of a woman who thinks
gays (TG) has no rights to social liberties and pursuit of happiness,
yet turn to her CDer for lingerie shopping and bedroom romping en-femme.
i would find it more troublesome if she does make such contradictory
exception than not... she would be a schizophrenic if she did...
i've been w/ a few, i know.

i hope you don't mind that i've aired my thoughts and curriosities.

[TGMarla]

Wow! Terrific thread! Way to stir up the bee's nest, Karen. Whereas I see your points, and I very much agree with the spirit of what you are saying, I have to agree with the ladies here (the real ones). It's not just about the clothes. It's deeper than that. I've always said so. If it were only the clothes, there would be no wigs, no breast forms, no tucks or gaffs, no shaving, no nothing, just the clothes. So it's not just about the clothes. If it were just about the clothes, you'd be calling me by my given name, not the name I've given me.

And Tammy? KathyGG comes across as very perceptive to me. (Wipe the butter off your chin, K) She puts herself in your wife's shoes, and she has probably hit pretty close to the mark. Those horizons can sure change a lot. She's also right that although my satisfaction bar may be rather low right now, if given a little acceptance, how much higher would I place the bar? I don't know. But by your own admission, you did stretch just a little further each time you gained an inch. Perhaps this is a contributing factor in her decision to separate?

But Kathy? Karen is also very correct in her statements when she states her point about the fear factor:

Like I said, I know this is deep stuff. I know a lot of us deceived our wives by keeping it all a secret, but do you see why we felt we had to do it? I don't blame anyone for being angry or disturbed, but you know, I'm sure most of us already feel pretty lousy about doing it, I know I kick myself plenty for not being upfront from the get-go. I'm sorry, we're all sorry, we didn't mean or want to trick anybody, we were just plain scared.I know I can relate to that. That's exactly why I hid it and never told a soul. My wife even said to me that she understood why I held this truth from her. When I asked her if when we were dating, had she known, would she have run away, she told me that she probably would have. That was my fear, and remained my fear for years. Whereas I know it is a degree of deceit, I really don't think it ranks me high on the monster scale. And she's also correct in saying how lousy we feel about it now. Hindsight is always 20/20, I guess.

[GypsyKaren]

I'm sorry, maybe it's just me. Kat and I were at the thrift store a while ago, and she bought a man's suit to wear when we go out sometimes. It just didn't bother me, in fact I thought she looked pretty cool. It's clothes people, just a crummy piece of cloth, so what, who cares, wear it, be happy, I think there's kinda more important things in life to sweat about, go in peace, what the hell. It's not like you got a swatstika tattooed on your forehead. I don't know, like I said maybe it's just me, but I stopped telling my kids how to dress when they were in grade school, I've never done it to an adult.

And you know, sitting on the couch in a dress watching Letterman is a wee bit different than suddenly springing on someone that you want to pull out a whip and give them 40 lashes, at least it is to me.

I do see the other points, and I believe I did say that I don't expect anyone to go la-de-da over this. I don't expect anyone to just roll over either, sure there are those who have problems with it. I'm saying TALK ABOUT IT! Don't just turn and run or hide. Marriage's take work and time and understanding, people are complicated, and life ain't no fairy tale. Kat is a big part of me and my life, and I'm not gonna chuck it over clothes or hairstyle.

GypsyKaren

[Tamara Barclay]

My first wife left me, putting most of the blame on my dressing. In actuallity, it was a way for her to justify the affair she was having.
After 10 years, I have a little more perspective on the situation. She accepted my dressing without reservations, attended meetings with me, shopped as girls, the "dream" life for a CD. But I kept pushing more and more and more of "my needs" on her. My ex lost herself in my quest, and looked elsewhere to find herself.
My current wife knows, does not see me dressed, lets me wear a bra and panties to bed every now and then, and I don't push it any farther. I adore her and love her, and repesct her limits.

[Tamara Croft]

I keep hearing that phrase 'they are just clothes'. Well, they are NOT just clothes are they really? When you were growing up, did your mum dress you in anything because they were 'just clothes'? or did she dress you in clothes that were made for your gender? When your growing up, you learn what clothes are for what gender and it stays in your mind. That is the way society is brought up and I think that is where the issue is of who wears what.

I met a man, I expected him to wear mans clothes, but he says he also likes womens clothes, my mind is telling me that this is wrong because I was brought up in a society that told me what each gender should wear. This obviously isn't how all women feel, but it's how a lot of them feel and thus comes the issue at home.

When I first met Tam, she didn't tell me the whole story either, I think if she had, I would have ran a mile. However, this hasn't helped our relationship at all, because as far as I knew, she just liked wearing little skirts and stockings/tights and that was it. Over the years, this changed to skirts, tops, wigs, make-up, shoes, boots, bags etc etc.... But this wasn't new for her, this was her introducing me to all the things she really liked to wear. It freaked me out, I could just about cope with the skirt and stockings, but she just kept pushing and pushing more and more things on me until I couldn't stand it. What happened to my man? where did he go? 6 years this went on for, no forum, no friends, no information, no nothing. Did it cause our break-up? Looking back now, I think it paid a big contribution to it.

They aren't just clothes, it's not just a bit of make-up, it's never just this that or the other, because there's always something else cropping up, there's always something else coming along making you feel more pushed away, because that something always seems more important.

[kittypw GG]

It is not just about the clothes I agree with Kathy gg. I was very accepting of my husbands cd'ing and was the driving force behind joining groups like triess and making friends and buying clothes etc. At some point my husband became confused and thought he was a women in a mans body, obsessed about wanting a sex change and wanting to take hormomes. This is the point where I wanted off of the band wagon. I don't know how we managed to stay living in the same house. It was the most stressful time in my life. This thing took over my life and I started to live and breath gender issues and crossdressing. It came to the point were I needed to stop. This was not my personel issue it was his. I can come to my understanding but does it match his? He is a very tight lipped individual and has difficulty communicating and I wounder if it is because he is still wanting to be a women (he denies this) or is he still confused. It drives me insane at times. I ask just what it is that would make him happy but he really does not have answers. He alway says that he would be happy with a little something like panties, toes painted etc. then he adds for now............ This to me suggests that he will be always raising the bar and expecting more and more. He doesn't communicate unless he is yelling at me and accusing me of controling this issue and this leaves me feeling very unlike pleasing him or participating. Then I start feeling that this is a bad thing because it leaves me alway feeling bad. All of our fights are related to this issue in some way. What I guess I am trying to say (hubby don't get mad because I know you will read this) is that if we can't communicate and comprimise without a screaming match then it will never feel good to me and I will always be woundering about what will lie in my future. I have to TRUST that you have been honest with me and there will be no more suprises. Reveling that you feel like a women is a breach of trust because your wife married a man. She did not get involve with a women. It takes some time to rebuild that trust and patients is not a virtue of a lot of crossdressers that I can see. I am at the point now that I just want some peace in my life and I am worn out from this issue and to be honest I just want it to go away. Perhaps that is why your wife felt that she had to leave. She may just need peace.....and to concentrate on herself instead of you. Sorry this as you know is a very hard road to travel.

[Helana]

Karen

I do agree with your line of argument. If we must be brutually honest with each other, people are selfish by nature which is why compromise is the key to marriage - we have two people wanting to hold onto as much of their own beliefs as possible but understanding each has to give in because they love each other and the marriage will founder otherwise.

It is quite correct to say that wives will be shocked at the news and will hate the idea that this secret was kept from them. But what happens then? At some point life has to move on, compromises have to be made. A wife cannot remain in this angry, shocked state forever. Just how long should it take for a wife to get her head around the fact that her husband has feminine desires but is still the same person and still loves her? I know that question has no simple answer but I would suggest that if the wife cannot deal with this issue within the first year of disclosure then probably she never will.

The distrust is an issue which can be overcome because the reason for hiding our CD nature is understandable, there was no wilful intent here. This is a forgiveable thing. Love and forgiveness are supposed to walk hand in hand. CDs are not just with-holding their condition from their wives but from everybody including themselves. Most CDs who withheld from their wives really did believe that getting married would cure them or at least inhibit their desires.

And respectfully, who here can honestly say that they laid ALL their secrets and guilty feelings bare before their present partners before getting hitched. Even after decades of marriage couples still often find out new things about their partners. We all have a cabinet of secrets.

Lets look at a simple example. A man marries a woman and then on the wedding night finds out she is frigid in bed. Eventually she admits that she was abused as a child and cannot help the way she feels about intimancy. She had hoped that marrying the man she loved would help her overcome this issue but she assumed wrongly. In this scenerio is it right for the man to get angry at being deceived. Would the husband say "You should have told me this before we were married because I do not want a frigid wife". Would we not think badly of the husband if he did not comfort her, tell her that they would work through this together and continue to love her anyway. What sort of person would say "I cannot accept this and I am going to divorce you"? We all know that everybody would think very poorly of the husband.

No matter what a husband wears, no matter what new mannerisms he displays, no matter what new emotions he exhibits, he is still the same person that he have always been, only now more complete. The thing which has changed is the wife's perspective of her husband.

She can deal with this new information with her now "open and honest" husband positively by becoming even closer as a couple now that his secret has been revealed which is exactly what the husband wants, or she can see this as a threat and reject the idea of incorporating her now "complete" husband into their relationship because she only wants a masculine man, thus erecting a barrier in the relationship.

Nobody says this is easy but it is reasonable for a husband to assume that after the shock of disclosure has passed, that he and his wife will come to a sensible compromise where both parties' wishes are respected and understood. It is somewhat inevitable that wives will believe that the husbands are trying to take too much, and husbands believe the wives are offering too little. That's life!

[Helana]

Tamara/Kitty

You both have raised the issue of the drip feeding of information and of the constant raising of the bar which bothers you very much.

Let me look at this from another perspective. If your husbands were dealing with another issue with another person in this manner you would most likely be praising them for being sensitive to the needs of others. But when they do it in this situation, it angers you. Why? I would hazard a guess that it is because you desperately want to believe that there is a boundary to their behaviour and that is will go no further. Your SOs drip feed you because they know you will not be able to deal with it all in one go which shows they are thinking of you even if you do not like the outcome.

The phrase raising the bar infers that there is some type of value rating to different articles of clothing. Is a skirt worse then a panty, is a bra worse than pantyhose, is lipstick the straw that breaks the camel's back? Your SOs are crossdressers so you know that they like to wear female clothes so you should be expecting that they would expand their wardrobes to cover the whole variety of female atire. And if you did not know, the information was out there if you wanted to find it. The bar which is being raised is the one inside your own heads which hopes to cap your SO's CDing.

What I am hearing in your messages is that you want to halt the expansion of your SOs wardrobe and female behaviour because you are afraid of where this will ultimately lead, i.e. the dark held fears that never went away that he may end up wanting some form of ultimate female expression such as going full time, having an affair with another man or wanting SRS. Your desire to have definite boundaries is to combat the fear of the unknown. You fear the man will be swallowed up whole by the woman.

Tamara you said, "because there's always something else cropping up, there's always something else coming along making you feel more pushed away."
Life is not stagnant, people are always pushing themselves for new experiences - new restaurants, new film, new sport, new holiday destination, new friends. This is a good thing however when it comes to Tam's crossdressing your view of new things becomes negative. This is hardly fair. Your feeling of being pushed away is an internal emotion derived from your views on crossdressing and is not a reflection of what Tam is doing. The question is do you want Tam to stagnate so that you can stop beating yourself up?

Kitty you said, "This was not my personel issue it was his." What happened to the "we". His issues are your issues and vice versa. I am sure that you have had problems too which he has shared the burden with you. It sounds like you have already withdrawn from the partnership.

You also said "Reveling that you feel like a women is a breach of trust because your wife married a man. She did not get involve with a women." Unless he is TS, then wives did not marry a woman at all, but a man with a transgendered personality. Also he may have been much more masculine at the time of marriage than latter on. People do evolve. It can only be considered a breach of trust if the husband knew that his feelings would not go away and that he would definitly be crossdressing within the marriage.

[Tamara Croft]

Helena, you are right ;) However, I was writing to say how it used to be for me, not how it is now. Back then, I didn't even think about researching it, nor did Tam offer any research or sit down and talk to me about it. It's only been the last couple of years that I decided I needed to know just who I was living with. I can relate to these women who find it so hard to accept that their partners are crossdressers, because I've lived it, I'm a woman and unless you are the one on the recieving end of living with a transgendered person, I don't think you could possibly understand what it's like. Yes, you are transgendered, but have you ever lived with a ftm transgendered person? Have you dealt with the woman you thought you loved wanting to become or living like/dressing like a man? The answer to that most obviously is no isn't it.

You see, your not actually stepping in our shoes, you can't possibly understand how it feels for a woman unless you have dealt with these issues yourself.

[eleventhdr]

To err is Human to give devine!. Nuff said!. Suzy!.

[Helana]

Tamara

I agree wholeheartedly, you have to be one to know one. Even if one day we know everything about CDing, why it happens and what it all means, this will not change the fact that people from different situations and backgrounds will always see things in a different way. Knowing that, arguments between people suddenly look stupid. If both parties agreed to differ then both could walk away without hurting each other. But then where is the fun in that.:evil:

[Wendy-Anne]

First time I've logged on in close to a month and this thread hits me like a ton of bricks. I,m lucky. My sweet darling wife is ok with my dressing. End of story? It should be, but not really. It took me many years to "come out" to her. Just like every other post in this thread I can admit to the steady stream of bits and pieces of information, always testing to see how much I could admit to. I am not proud of this deception.
Why?
Because I was and still am, scared sh**less.
Maybe its just the conditioning. The irrational fear of being exposed.
I don't know what it is like in your part of the world, but in my little corner of this great southern land you have to have great courage to be anything other than a bloke.
My public face is male. It is the face that keeps me in a job. Fits in with the responsibilities of raising a family etc, etc, etc.
As Wendy-Anne, I would not last five minutes in this wider world.
By coming out to my wife, I am trusting her with my heart and soul.
If she were at all insecure, or had a streak of cruelty, she could surely destroy me with all that she knows.
But not so.
Instead there is love and respect.
I do not prod and push and embarrass my wife by persuing the deeper (and maybe darker ) side of her imagination and sexuality.
It is there. It is hinted at. Sometimes surprising us both when an unexpected aspect emerges.
So it is very much a two-way street.
Its not so much a matter of "keeping secrets". I once heard somebody say that families are only as sick as there secrets.
Maybe we are mature enough to realise the difference between our feelings and reality. For sometimes the only place where we can truly be free to be ourselves is in that great untrammelled vista of our own imagination.
Meanwhile, I find that a bit of gratitude works wonders.
And there is so much to be grateful for!

[Donna tv]

This thread started yesterday and It has been on my mind ever since. I am not very good at organizing my thoughts so bear with me. I think every one of your reply's make valid points. The words I think about not only in this thread but constantly are "Choice" (just the same as sexual preference did we choose to be tg'ed or was it genetics). " Addiction" (I think we can all agree we will be tg'ed for life it never goes away) which co-insides with "progression" I have said this in other threads , how far have we gone from that 1st experience of trying on a pair of panties or slipping your foot into your Mom's high heels.(most of us a long way) As Tamara has stated "it's always some thing else" she could not have said it any better. Some people start smoking pot and "progress" to heroin looking for that next rush. I know from my own experience with CD'ing it is progressive it is always something else for me. I also believe that we as CD'ers that have not come out to our SO's prior to marriage are "Wrong". I did not do it until after and it turned out OK, but you GG's should have been given a choice before marriage.
I guess in short let me conclude that in general whether it be in bussiness or my private life that I have been a fair judge of knowing right from wrong. Being right for me can mean I bend the norm but if I am not hurting myself or anyone else I'm ok with it. Hurting someone is Wrong . Bottom line "is it just the clothes ?" my opinion is no, it is more than that.

[kittypw GG]

Helena,
First let me say that I don't place a value rating on different articles of clothing but if your husband wants to eliminate the male all together, in my eyes that is a deal breaker. I have said before that I love all of the things that make him a man that is what I am attracted to. I never said that I am not attracted to my husband when he is dressed up. I have found him very attractive and sexy but I never lose sight of the fact that he is a man. I enjoy very much role playing and playing dressup. It does excite me but I want to be able to have equal expirences with a man. I also need to know that he is equally into me and not just thinking about how hot he looks , the feeling of the clothes, or what ever it does for him personally. I want him to say to himself that I am turning him on, that I am the love of his life , that my participating is a gift I give to him because I love him and want to please him. I don't want my whole life to revolve around crossdressing and that is what seems to be happening. Sometimes I feel that my being there is just not a requirement and that I am just a warm body to complete the fantasy. Sometimes I feel that I might just be a cover for him to feel more comfortable buying female clothes in the store if he runs into someone he knows or to make him less uncomfortable at the check out if the clerk sees that he is wearing a wedding ring then she will not think that he is a weirdo but a good husband.

Now let me address fear. It might be easy for crossdressers to say "What is the big deal?" but us so's are not inside of your heads and fear the unknown. Throw in a crossdresser that has difficulty communicating and you have a disaster. GG'S are good a reading non verbal communication and if your words and your actions don't match the fear factor goes up by a factor of 10. When I try to communicate my fears to my husband I get anger in return and that just does nothing to reduce my fear. Since I don't know what is in his head wouldn't it be better if he listened to my fears and was reasuring instead of angry?

You are right I have pulled away from the relationship. For several years I have been understanding. I never threatened to leave. When my husband was going throught his gender confusion I never threatened to leave but I did express that if he were to alter his body in a permanant way I did not think that I could stay. What is going on for me is so much more that crossdressing. I have put a lot of effort into this marriage. My husband promised me that it would be worth staying with him I wanted to believe him. So I waited and was patient through the drinking, gambeling and now it is crossdressing. Maybe there will always be something more important than actually haveing a partnership and relationship. What is really missing here is a foundation of mutual respect, and trust. To me it always seems to be about what he wants and he will have it regardless of what I say.

One last thing, crossdressing all of the time is also a stagnat situation. There needs to be variety and a balance between being the man you were born to be and being the female that you want to be. Doesn't it make more sense to nurture both sides equally?
Thanks for listening us gg's are really struggling to love and understand. What we need is patients, understanding and reasurance , lots of it.
Kitty.


Tamara/Kitty

The phrase raising the bar infers that there is some type of value rating to different articles of clothing. Is a skirt worse then a panty, is a bra worse than pantyhose, is lipstick the straw that breaks the camel's back? Your SOs are crossdressers so you know that they like to wear female clothes so you should be expecting that they would expand their wardrobes to cover the whole variety of female atire. And if you did not know, the information was out there if you wanted to find it. The bar which is being raised is the one inside your own heads which hopes to cap your SO's CDing.

What I am hearing in your messages is that you want to halt the expansion of your SOs wardrobe and female behaviour because you are afraid of where this will ultimately lead, i.e. the dark held fears that never went away that he may end up wanting some form of ultimate female expression such as going full time, having an affair with another man or wanting SRS. Your desire to have definite boundaries is to combat the fear of the unknown. You fear the man will be swallowed up whole by the woman.

Tamara you said, "because there's always something else cropping up, there's always something else coming along making you feel more pushed away."
Life is not stagnant, people are always pushing themselves for new experiences - new restaurants, new film, new sport, new holiday destination, new friends. This is a good thing however when it comes to Tam's crossdressing your view of new things becomes negative. This is hardly fair. Your feeling of being pushed away is an internal emotion derived from your views on crossdressing and is not a reflection of what Tam is doing. The question is do you want Tam to stagnate so that you can stop beating yourself up?

Kitty you said, "This was not my personel issue it was his." What happened to the "we". His issues are your issues and vice versa. I am sure that you have had problems too which he has shared the burden with you. It sounds like you have already withdrawn from the partnership.

You also said "Reveling that you feel like a women is a breach of trust because your wife married a man. She did not get involve with a women." Unless he is TS, then wives did not marry a woman at all, but a man with a transgendered personality. Also he may have been much more masculine at the time of marriage than latter on. People do evolve. It can only be considered a breach of trust if the husband knew that his feelings would not go away and that he would definitly be crossdressing within the marriage.

[GypsyKaren]

Very, very interesting points raised, I do appreciate it very much, and I do see where everybody is coming from. This is quite a complicated subject, to be sure, and I don't think there's an easy answer, or a one size fits all one either.I can't speak for other couples, I don't try to because I don't know them, and it's really none of my business, I can only speak from my viewpoint and go with what works for us.

Of course it's more than clothes, at least for most of us, there's a slew of reasons behind it all, and plenty of baggage to carry along with it. I'm lucky that Kat wanted to take it all in, and loved me enough to understand. I know that we do tend to keep much back, telling just enough to get by, I think that's a major problem in itself. I think what helped us greatly was that for over two days we sat in our little make-up room, which is our retreat, and I told her everything about me, and I do mean absolutely everything, nothing held back, not a shred. I purged my soul to her, did me a lot of good, and it gave her what she needed to see and feel me. She's the first, and only, person I've ever let in, and it gave her insight to the real me.

She does have some concerns, there's no such thing as fairy tale endings, you know. One of them is the will I carry this further issue, and I do understand her fears on this. All I can tell her is that I'm happy as is, that I feel no wish, thoughts, or desires to go to the next or any other step. I really don't think I would gain anything by whipping out the credit cards and getting altered or by taking hormones, in fact I have much to lose. We have a wonderful physical closeness between us that's so important to me, and there's no way I'll give that up or do anything that would affect it. And you know, it's lots of fun too, oh my!

Anyway, thank you all so much for your time and input, it's helped me, and I hope some others too. I guess what I learned the most from my experience with it all is to be honest and let the chips fall where they may, that's a mistake I'll never make again. You can't be honest with yourself unless you're honest with others, and you can only go so far by cheating because the house eventually wins. Do have a great day!

GypsyKaren

[Sarahgurl371]

Reading all the posts from the GG's and SO's here has brought up a point.

This is why I feel that burying your head in the sand is a horrible thing. Yes, you are all right in your posts about there always being something more. What are the reasons for this.
1. HE probably isn't being completely honest with himself. And in doing so, cannot be completly honest and forthcoming with you.
2. Why is he not being completely honest. He is afraid. He is afraid you will leave him. He is afraid because he hasn't yet figured out what exactly all this is. Fear of the Unknown. I'm sure the SO's feel it as well.

Then comes that day when HE brings it out in the open to you. Now HE certainlly doesn't want to hurt you. HE certainlly doesn't want to repulse you. HE certainlly doesn't want to loose you. HE ceratinlly cannot live like this anymore. He cannot continue to lie by omission to the most important person in his life. BUT, HE has to take it slowly. HE doesn't want to feak you out. HE wants to test the waters a bit, before putting it all out there and bearing every single deatil of HIS most intimate and personal being. Why, fear of rejection. He is probably very unsure of himself, and needs someone else to talk to to work thru it all.

I am not BOO HOOing. I am trying to explain MY thoughts. What lead me to do the very same things that the GGs here are pointing out. My wife said she knew it would go further. Maybe she knew me better that I did. Quick point - If she KNEW, why didn't she ask? I ceratinlly do not know, only she does.

Further, once the talk is had. Now if you don't object and run out, HE starts really digging deep. What is it that HE really wants? I have read about and personally experienced the confusion that sets in after disclosure. Do I want to be a girl? Do I want to go out en femme? Do I want to live as a women? Am I gay or heterosexual depending on my gender? Am I Bisexual? For me, I had to ask all these questions because not only I needed to know, She absolutely had the right to know.

Those SO's who took it upon themselves to ask questions, read, attempt to understand, I appreciate tremendously, and repsect you for doing so, even if you disagree with me. You tried. Mine won't. If she had, maybe she'd understand the confusion and boundary pushing that ensued after disclosure. After allowing myself to think about what it is that I want in my life. To be sure this was not HER problem, It was and will remain MINE. This is not fair to the GG's in our lives, absolutely positively not fair. I will leave it at that.

Its also not only about some "abnormal" or "diverse" sexual play. At least for me its not. BTW if she wants to dominate me, to role play that way, even though I don't get it, its just sex. I do for you, you do for me. Compromise, thats all I was asking for. But for me a boundary - monogamy.

Anyway, my 2 cents. From MY perspective, and opinion.

[Donna tv]

Kittypw GG, if your name was not attached to your reply I would have sworn my wife had joined this group without me even knowing it. We have had that conversation, most of it word for word as you wrote it some close enough.
After reading the responses from the GG's my guilt level has factored in at about a +50 rating WOW so much to digest. But also I have told my wife I think she is an absolute Saint to put up with me .. it has to be love

[terza]

i think it is a bad idea to pass judgements on
reasons for divorce, an example given by helena.
that seems to me as prescribing to idea of "normalcy."
for what ever reason a person decides to leave
a marriage is not a topic to be judged.
so what if a husband wants a divorce because
his wife likes vanila ice-cream. the idea of
triviality is ONLY for the parties involved to
determined. there is no one universal definition
of commitment (that everyone must to adhere to).

the overly lax tolerance for the justification
(of fear) not to tell your significant other
is too much of passing the blame of a CDer's
insincerity to society -- actions behind closed
doors between couples do not always follow society's
puritanical consent. the microcosm of the couple
is affected by society, but has a maximum flexibilty
to deviate from those norms. it boils down to
not telling the significant other as personnal
choice that the CDer has to take full responsibility.

i know full well of horror stories behind outing to
a SO. i think it is easy enough to assess whether a
person is trust-worthy and DISCREET or NOT.
i think the case of having SO turns blabber-mouth is
when a CDer in DESPERATION (and poor judgement)
disclose to a woman who is (already) known for indiscretions.

only now more complete... is that not an ommission of
who you are and thus false in presentation?

the problem i have w/ "drip feed," good coin by the way, is that
the CDer lies about his full intent/extent. i think it is
acceptable to openly say that there is more, but wanting
to hold more for later. it is not cool to set a definitive
line and keep on re-drawing it, yet make claims of honesty.
all couples do evolve... sometimes apart, w/ or w/o
crossdressing. whether the growth direction is apart
or closer really does not fall under the realms of right
and wrong, good and evil, etc. people leave for different
reasons, as do who stay have their reasons.

helena, i am not picking on you. i find your posts are
very interesting and they really stood out in my mind
and deserves decussing.

[Helana]

Kitty

I do feel for you. There is a lot of anguish in your posts. All I can say is everything you are feeling, your husband is most probably feeling too. He is just as scared, fustrated and depressed. You both need the other to be the rock but neither can provide what each really needs.

It does sound as if your husbands personality is more feminine than masculine which probably means he is a transgenderist, a step beyond crossdressing. He does need to learn how to properly control his urges and understand that he is still part masculine as well and be happy expressing this side of him. That will be a lot easier if you stay with him and guide him. It sounds like he needs you alot more than you need him, so for the time being you may need to be the rock even if you yourself are in turmoil.

Your story sounds like a runaway train which you are both on. He may be the train driver but you were stoking the fires and now neither of you knows where the brakes are. Staying on a runaway train is not an option as you know for sure it is going to crash. Jumping off the train may save your life but you will be badly injured in the process. You need to stop the train and pull into a quiet station for a well deserved rest.

When a relationship gets so messy that it becomes a nightmare to unravel all the knots then I think that you just need to cut out the knot. I would suggest that you both talk and agree that what has happened between you has gone badly awry and draw a line under it. Bring out a clean sheet of paper and ask each other to write down what you love about each other and why you want to stay together. If you find out that both of you still love one another then build on that and completely redraw the relationship from scratch. All relationships need solid groundings to withstand the earthquakes to come. I do hope that happier times are ahead for you.



Helena,
First let me say that I don't place a value rating on different articles of clothing but if your husband wants to eliminate the male all together, in my eyes that is a deal breaker. I have said before that I love all of the things that make him a man that is what I am attracted to. I never said that I am not attracted to my husband when he is dressed up. I have found him very attractive and sexy but I never lose sight of the fact that he is a man. I enjoy very much role playing and playing dressup. It does excite me but I want to be able to have equal expirences with a man. I also need to know that he is equally into me and not just thinking about how hot he looks , the feeling of the clothes, or what ever it does for him personally. I want him to say to himself that I am turning him on, that I am the love of his life , that my participating is a gift I give to him because I love him and want to please him. I don't want my whole life to revolve around crossdressing and that is what seems to be happening. Sometimes I feel that my being there is just not a requirement and that I am just a warm body to complete the fantasy. Sometimes I feel that I might just be a cover for him to feel more comfortable buying female clothes in the store if he runs into someone he knows or to make him less uncomfortable at the check out if the clerk sees that he is wearing a wedding ring then she will not think that he is a weirdo but a good husband.

Now let me address fear. It might be easy for crossdressers to say "What is the big deal?" but us so's are not inside of your heads and fear the unknown. Throw in a crossdresser that has difficulty communicating and you have a disaster. GG'S are good a reading non verbal communication and if your words and your actions don't match the fear factor goes up by a factor of 10. When I try to communicate my fears to my husband I get anger in return and that just does nothing to reduce my fear. Since I don't know what is in his head wouldn't it be better if he listened to my fears and was reasuring instead of angry?

You are right I have pulled away from the relationship. For several years I have been understanding. I never threatened to leave. When my husband was going throught his gender confusion I never threatened to leave but I did express that if he were to alter his body in a permanant way I did not think that I could stay. What is going on for me is so much more that crossdressing. I have put a lot of effort into this marriage. My husband promised me that it would be worth staying with him I wanted to believe him. So I waited and was patient through the drinking, gambeling and now it is crossdressing. Maybe there will always be something more important than actually haveing a partnership and relationship. What is really missing here is a foundation of mutual respect, and trust. To me it always seems to be about what he wants and he will have it regardless of what I say.

One last thing, crossdressing all of the time is also a stagnat situation. There needs to be variety and a balance between being the man you were born to be and being the female that you want to be. Doesn't it make more sense to nurture both sides equally?
Thanks for listening us gg's are really struggling to love and understand. What we need is patients, understanding and reasurance , lots of it.
Kitty.

[Helana]

i think it is a bad idea to pass judgements on
reasons for divorce, an example given by helena.
that seems to me as prescribing to idea of "normalcy."
for what ever reason a person decides to leave
a marriage is not a topic to be judged.
so what if a husband wants a divorce because
his wife likes vanila ice-cream. the idea of
triviality is ONLY for the parties involved to
determined. there is no one universal definition
of commitment (that everyone must to adhere to).


Hi Terza

I just wanted to clarify that my example was not about reasons for divorce but a recognition that people do bring undisclosed baggage into a marriage often under the false impression that it will not be necessary to reveal the information because it is either irrelvant or marriage will resolve the issue naturally. Just because the baggage was disclosed after marriage is not a reason to run away from dealing with it.

A marriage is a partnership, its core values are love, sharing and forgiveness (especially for acts that did not have wilful intent). People make mistakes in judgement, your partner is supposed to be there for you and work out a solution together not condem you and seek separation. No marriages would last if that was the case. Where there is a will, there is a way.