Gender and Perception

[LenGray]

So, this might open up a kettle of worms but I still want to hear everyone's thoughts.

I was raised in a fairly gender-neutral environment. I was home-schooled and my brother and I were basically raised in the same way; if he did it, I did it. We wrestled, climbed trees, built forts, and basically the only time gender came into the question was on Sundays when I had to wear a dress while he wore jeans(and even that was a bit iffy since I wore skirts that were actually pants with really wide legs) I never thought that there was any real difference between us.

Really, the first time that I became aware of gender differences and roles was when I began living with my grandparents and went to public school in 8th grade.

I was told that I was manly; from my walk, to my speech patterns, even to the way that I smiled! I didn't know that girls weren't supposed to enjoy yard work, or that they were supposed to shave their legs and wear different clothes than men. I didn't know that it was unacceptable to wrestle with my guy friends or that it was looked down on to have a group of guy friends instead of gal friends with me being a female, or that it wasn't polite to look into men's eyes when talking to them. I didn't know that it was strange for a girl to pick a fight with a boy or to treat women like a lady if you were female, or that not wearing make-up was an odd thing to do. It was like stepping into another world and confused me terribly.

Ever since I've begun cross-dressing and thinking about my gender I keep running into the same question: How much of gender is really just our perception of the concept?

If sex is whether or not we have the physical traits of male or female and gender is what we feel we are on the inside, then isn't it almost entirely our perception?

As I've tried to reclaim that comfortable sense of self that I had back then, I've found myself hesitating to do certain things because I've been told over and over again not to, even if my head is screaming that I need to take a stand. I envy the strength and confidence that I had in my ignorance and I can only imagine how hard it is for people that have been in this social trap since birth.

I wonder if the difference between the sexes isn't almost entirely a societal concept and suspect that possibly the lack of gender specific behaviors is why both my brother and myself have indulged in cross-dressing and homosexuality without the fuss and bother that generally coincide with these two concepts. What are people's thoughts on this?

[PaulaQ]

I wonder if the difference between the sexes isn't almost entirely a societal concept

This is a central concept of radical feminism.

If it's true though - why do you care to be a man, instead of just a really masculine woman?
For that matter, why can't I just cross dress and be happy, instead of having to do all of the work of physical transition?

[arbon]

I think it is both physical and social, and far to complex for me to understand.

[LenGray]

If it's true though - why do you care to be a man, instead of just a really masculine woman?
For that matter, why can't I just cross dress and be happy, instead of having to do all of the work of physical transition?

That's where I feel perception comes into play. Before, I was happy because, essentially, I didn't know that I wasn't a man. Now, I'm unhappy because of what I've learned a man is in society and realizing that people won't treat me the way I want to be treated as long as I'm biologically and societally female.

I can't speak for why you would want to physically transition, but for me, it would be because I know that I won't be perceived as a man no matter how hard I try, therefore defeating my perception of who I am and limiting the options I have of expressing that inner concept.

[ReineD]

It's odd … I'm from an earlier generation than you, yet I did not receive the same constrained messages about the female gender. I had to go out there and help pull the weeds from the planting beds. lol. And help with the dishes. And make my bed. I didn't wear makeup (except to my prom). I had long hair, but so did all the boys during the 1970s. I wore blue jeans to school, and I looked everyone in the eye as I d*mn well pleased. :p Most of us thought that the stereotypical gender roles of our parents were dorky.

As to picking fights with boys … I did fight them when I was little, but I outgrew it by the time I was in high school.

Gender to me is how I connect with my body. I like what it does, I like who I am, and I do not feel uncomfortable in my skin. I am perfectly free to wear makeup, or not. I happen to be in a relationship with someone who enjoys femininity, and so I do make an effort to be feminine now (I didn't for years while my kids were growing up) because I want to be attractive to my SO. But, it is entirely my choice. This is why I don't really notice what gender I am, I'm just me. If I didn't connect with my body then I would feel as if it were at odds with my sense of gender-identity. There used to be huge differences between gender roles and expectations, but not so much any more. So many women are out there being in charge of their lives. It's not 100% equal yet in terms of salary and in some professions, but it's getting there.

Do you connect with your body, or are you at odds with it? This, I think, is the biggest predictor of whether you're trans … and not how society perceives males or females, since there has been such a huge narrowing of the gender gap. Modern dads help just as much with the diapers and cooking, because their wives are also putting in long days at work.

[PaulaQ]

I can't speak for why you would want to physically transition...

It's like ReineD said - I don't, and have never, connected with my body. I hated my body. We're not best buds yet - but we're getting there. I at least feel like a girl.

If it were just perception, talk therapy would fix this stuff - and it'd be the same for you. It's some of both. I think that most of what are men's and women's roles are both a social construct, and a result of evolution and biology. Our minds are built to need these differences - although patriarchal societies like ours go way the hell overboard with them.

[LenGray]

ReineD: My upbringing was a bit...special, to say the least ;) I lived with my grandparents after I was 12 and my grandma had many of the concepts that your parents probably had, reinforced by her own upbringing with a grandparent. Therefore, I was raised a bit more 'old-school' when it came to learning societal norms, and held even further back by only discovering that such a thing existed when I was a pre-teen.

That's an interesting and well-thought out definition of gender!
Hm, as far as me connecting with my body or being at odds with it, I would say that it varies?
I feel that women are beautiful and deserve to be cherished, protected, and loved. However, being a woman myself, I despise when people attempt to do those things towards me because I want to be the cherisher, protector, and lover. When I'm the most comfortable in my skin, it's when I imagine myself as a man or a gender-neutral being. I don't hate my body, I simply find it inconvenient for the things that I'm trying to do. The gender gap has decreased significantly in modern times but in my own mind, it has not and I feel uncomfortable in what I perceive my role in life to be.

Perhaps it's not a matter of how society views us but how we view ourselves?

[PaulaQ]

Perhaps it's not a matter of how society views us but how we view ourselves?

If so, then why did I have a thought last year, clear as a bell, out of nowhere "I need breasts." And why are you binding yours?

It's about hardware, bro.

[ReineD]

Perhaps it's not a matter of how society views us but how we view ourselves?

I'd say you've hit the nail on the head! :)


Edited to add:


I feel that women are beautiful and deserve to be cherished, protected, and loved.

A lot of women would take exception to this. But, maybe my feminism is showing just a tad. lol. Although yes, women do want to be loved, as do men.

But seriously, many women today love their independence, love to be in charge of their lives, and don't feel they need protection from men. I know that I need to face my own life battles ... I do not look to my SO for rescue. If he kept rescuing and protecting me, then how would I grow as a human being?

Not saying you're not trans ... you need to follow how you feel. But, it is my view that women aren't quite as helpless as you might think they are?

[PaulaQ]

Reine, it's really some of both. Passing, and our societal role matter to many of us - these are things that our perception of ourselves simply does not control.

[LenGray]

If so, then why did I have a thought last year, clear as a bell, out of nowhere "I need breasts." And why are you binding yours?

It's about hardware, bro.

Maybe so. But is your perception of yourself with breasts more positive than your perception of yourself without them?

For me, binding my chest is a vastly more positive experience because people aren't staring at them all the time and I feel as though without that...sizable...asset, that I can assert myself more confidently. So, I'd say that because I bind, my perception of myself as well as my perception of how society views me is changed, therefore allowing myself more freedom to act and present myself the way I see fit.

Hardware definitely plays an important part in our perception of ourselves and others. But, I don't think it's the only part, by any means.

[PaulaQ]

Maybe so. But is your perception of yourself with breasts more positive than your perception of yourself without them?


Well, it is, but my dysphoria is also reduced. There's increasing evidence that GD is a lot like phantom limb syndrome - your brain is wired to expect certain inputs, and when it doesn't get them, it's not too happy about it.

I didn't mean to imply that it was only hardware, I apologize, I'm doing two things at once and really didn't finish that thought. You were apparently supposed to read my mind or something! :p

I believe it is a mix of biology and sociology. I think the social constructs are (mostly) arbitrary, although a few, such as the social implications of breast feeding are based on physical realities, at least for early man.

The biological parts of this require differences, but don't really so much care what they are. The sociological parts of this make up mostly random crap that differentiates men and women. (And unfortunately serves to put men at the top of the heap, mostly.)

I think it's both - it's neither all biology, nor all sociology, and where the one ends and the other begins is an interesting question, but looking back over history, it's clear a great many of the differences between men and women are simply social constructs that have changed over time.

Unfortunately for the radical feminists, the reason for those differences appears to be biological.

[LenGray]

A lot of women would take exception to this. But, maybe my feminism is showing just a tad. lol. Although yes, women do want to be loved, as do men.
Haha, trust me, my inner feminist winced a little at it too :) But, that's honestly how I feel and many of my female friends will assure you with a sigh and roll of the eyes, that I do indeed have a bit of a 'shining knight' complex when it comes to women.



Not saying you're not trans ... you need to follow how you feel. But, it is my view that women aren't quite as helpless as you might think they are?

I didn't mean to imply that they were :) Most women are very able to protect themselves, sometimes more so than men. But that doesn't stop me from walking my female friends to the door at night, buying my SO flowers, or feeling angry when someone makes a girl cry. Curiously, I also can't bring myself to fight a girl, whereas I would fight a man with little to no hesitation.

These are things that I don't feel have anything to do with me being trans* because they are an ingrained part of my psyche but also something that I feel sets me apart in some way from other females and makes me uncomfortable because of it.

[PaulaQ]

I do indeed have a bit of a 'shining knight' complex when it comes to women.

I think you may be overcompensating in much the same way as I am when I wear my pumps with 5" heels! You missed a lot of opportunities to be a traditional boy while growing up.

[LenGray]

I didn't mean to imply that it was only hardware, I apologize, I'm doing two things at once and really didn't finish that thought. You were apparently supposed to read my mind or something! :p

Haha, I have many skills but mind-reading has never been one of them :p Curiously, relating to your comment about GD being like PLS, I've often wondered about that as well since I notice that whenever I stretch with my arms above my head I feel somewhat cheated. I never imagine myself with breasts when I do this and always feel disappointed that I don't feel the skin stretching over my pectoral muscles. I always imagine that it would be a wonderful feeling to feel that skin stretch... Curious, huh?


I think it's both - it's neither all biology, nor all sociology, and where the one ends and the other begins is an interesting question, but looking back over history, it's clear a great many of the differences between men and women are simply social constructs that have changed over time.

That's what I've noticed too. Which was one of the things that had me post this thread in the first place lol It would be so fascinating to find out

[ReineD]

Len, re your post #13:

Well, I agree with you on the "looking out for each other" bit about walking someone to the door. I don't walk them to the door, but I do stay in the car until they are safely in the house with the door closed. This holds true for both my SO and my female friends when I drive them home. Also I must admit ... I also have gotten flowers to say thank you to my female friends, for my mother, etc ... AND for my SO because I know that s/he really appreciates the gesture. :) And, I too become upset when anybody cries, male or female, but maybe this is a mom-thing.

So like you said earlier ... we both do the same things, except we both have a different view of who we are internally, gender-wise. So I do think that to be trans (the type of trans that wants to physically transition) means to have a pretty serious disconnect with one's body and the body functions.

[LenGray]

ReineD: It is certainly an interesting distinction. We do the same things but for different reasons, largely determined by our perceived genders :)

Hm...I personally would like to transition with top surgery and perhaps hormones(I would rather look somewhat androgynous than completely male), but I wonder if I could honestly say that I have a serious disconnect between my body and its functions? Or if my dysphoria mainly comes from my perceived limitations as a female?


I think you may be overcompensating in much the same way as I am when I wear my pumps with 5" heels! You missed a lot of opportunities to be a traditional boy while growing up.

Probably so lol But I've also been that way ever since I was young :) The first time I ever got my nose broken was in elementary school when a middle schooler told a girl in my class that she was uglier than mud and demanded her lunch money. She started crying and I flew at him before I thought about it lol Ironically, it was shortly after that my mom decided to home school...

[Wildaboutheels]

******************************************
Hi I'm Len :)
Hello everyone,

My name is Sara but I go by Len most of the time. I'm 23 and an aspiring writer. I'm pretty new to cross dressing and though I dressed as a boy a lot as a teen I haven't taken it back up until recently.

The reason why I joined this forum is because while I like being a woman, I find that sometimes the constraints of women are too stifling and I like how I feel when I look like a man. I'm more confident and sure of myself and feel like I can take on the world when I adopt my 'Len' persona. It makes me feel proud of myself.

I look forward to meeting you all and getting the answers that I'm searching for. Thank you. Here's some pictures, one of me as a girl and the other of me as a boy...

*********************

This ^^^ was your first post just 64 days ago. How much has your attitude CHANGED since you started drinking at this water hole?

Most of what you have written gives irrefutable evidence of the role in Nurture in our lives. Many here choose to deny it, but it won't change the Facts.

I am curious as to what role if any, your dad played in your life?

[ReineD]

OK ... I had logged off and was on Facebook when I saw this and thought it might bring a good laugh to the discussion.

Honestly, I laughed out loud when I read it! It's exaggerated of course, but something rings true. lol

So the question is, do you think of relationships or transmissions?

LOL LOL LOL

http://www.tickld.com/x/the-difference-between-men-and-women

It's all in the mind. :)


Edit - I've just read your post #17. It would be good to consider whether your dysphoria comes from a disconnect to your body, or whether you simply feel that women are limited. Only you can answer this.
:hugs:

[PaulaQ]

Too funny!
I'm apparently changing, as all I could think of was "six months?" I'd have used a U-Haul twice in that period of time, once to move in with her and once to move out... ;)

[LenGray]

This ^^^ was your first post just 64 days ago. How much has your attitude CHANGED since you started drinking at this water hole?

Most of what you have written gives irrefutable evidence of the role in Nurture in our lives. Many here choose to deny it, but it won't change the Facts.

I am curious as to what role if any, your dad played in your life?

Goodness, you looked a ways back to find that post! lol Was it only 64 days ago? ;p

How have I changed? Hm...well, not a lot, honestly. I still don't find anything inherently wrong with being a woman though I find that it's increasingly uncomfortable the older I get. I'm more open to the idea of medically transitioning to gain a more neutral appearance though. Cross dressing was and still is a way for me to handle the difference between what I feel and what I think I'm supposed to feel.

That being said, I also feel more comfortable admitting that I'm trans*, regardless of whether I transition or not and I've had to think about a lot of things that I took for granted before, namely 'why?' Why do I act the way I do? Why is this different from what most biological women feel? Why was I never interested in the things my peer group was? Why do I feel uncomfortable with being treated like what I perceive a woman should be treated as? Finding the answers to those questions is hard and while I've accepted that I'm not 'just' a cross dresser I'm still quite unsure as to what I actually am and what I'm going to do about it.

For your second question regarding my dad...

I lived with my stepdad and mom for a long time and though I figured out that he wasn't my real father(him and my mom have black hair and brown eyes while I have brown hair and blue eyes), I didn't know who my dad was until I was about 7. Before that, I'd always thought he was just a friend of my mom's. He taught me how to read and encouraged my idolization of knights and being a hero.

In the 5 years after that, he was usually away working and I treasured what time I could get with him. He treated me like an adult and taught me how to fight, play baseball, how to question authority, and encouraged me to think things through on my own rather than accept things on another person's say-so. He also taught me about honor and standing up for what I believed in even if it meant getting in trouble.

When I was 12, him and my mother went out of my life and I moved in with my grandparents. I've only recently gotten in contact with him this last December. Ironically, me and him are still just alike and have many of the same interests :) I'm living with him now

ReineD: Just read your link and I laughed so loudly that the dog looked at me crazy! Sadly, I've had these discussions and was on the transmission side XD

The disconnect issue is a big one that's been bothering me and I'm still not sure of the answer. I have too many other explanations and variables. I'm hoping to see a counselor about it though

Paula: Hahahahahahahahaha! Six months? A relationship can last for SIX MONTHS?! 0_0

[PaulaQ]

Paula: Hahahahahahahahaha! Six months? A relationship can last for SIX MONTHS?! 0_0

So I've been told. To be honest I haven't experienced that myself since coming out as a trans lesbian! :o

[mechamoose]

Interesting thread!

I think that your story, LenGray, is a prime example of the power of socialization. Not only didn't you know there was a difference, it didn't matter to you. You didn't know it mattered to anyone else until lots later.

If you teach a girl from day one that she is strong and capable, then will be strong and capable. If you teach her that she is a pretty princess, then she will likely become a pretty princess.

Socialization is a powerful thing.. but I have to give a *big* nod to genetics.

My daughter (28) is unmistakably female. She is as full and curvy as I am big & burly... but she is fierce and strong, and scared off most guys growing up due to her high energy and fearlessness. My friends tell me that they are terrified that she is a female version of me. (You GO girl!) Most of her boyfriends and her SO have been slighter, sensitive, slightly effeminate guys.

So, it isn't just one thing.

From your description, you describe a lot of male traits. I think that you had a mix of social and genetic factors that made you who you are.

You enhance those presentations by mode of dress and how you act. My experience has been that if you are clearly one gender/role or the other, life goes by smoothly. Its those of us somewhere in between that make the 'mundanes' confused and that is where the conflict occurs.

<3

- MM

[LenGray]

Always glad to hear your input, mechamoose!

Haha, I was quite socially naïve when I started going to public school ^_^; I'd been raised that my word was my bond and that a person's actions and honor were more important than what they looked like or what gender they were. Needless to say, high school was a novel experience lol

I definitely agree that genetics played a hand in what I am today. Growing up, I was short, stubborn, and super competitive. My mom tried to make me into a princess but realized pretty quick that 1) I would never wear shoes, and 2) That if my brother told me I couldn't do something, that I'd become hell-bent to do it.

So, I suppose you could say that socially I was raised with male traits that coincided with my genetic inclinations and a lot of other factors :) The thing that's confusing, is that I never knew such behavior was weird until the past 5 years or so. In high school, I could fit in with the rebels and the rejects but now, I'm one of those 'in-between' people who isn't quite sure where they belong.

[mechamoose]

What you were taught seems to have been a good foundation for you. It seems you lucked out (regardless of how you feel about it)

As girly as I feel, I don't find many views on www.artofmanliness.com (http://www.artofmanliness.com/) that I disagree with.

I'm just old-fashioned that way, I guess.

- MM

[LenGray]

I definitely feel like I lucked out in the way I was raised :D I've been told that I'm quite old-fashioned though lol Sometimes, it feels like I was raised in a different world though ^_^;

[Wildaboutheels]

So Saralen, your writing skills are highly commendable, especially for one so young. Seems like for the past 15 years or so, the 3 Rs have been relegated to" options" for "kids" at all levels of education. Even most "adults" today have very poor writing skills and some of the emails and memos I see circulated at work look like they could have been written by a 10 yo. Did you take writing courses or does some elementary school teacher who loved English beyond all other subjects get the credit? Is your dad a writer of some sort by chance?

[LenGray]

My mom and dad both taught me how to write and since I was a voracious reader as a kid, it just came naturally, I guess? I did have some wonderful English teachers but I've loved to read and write ever since I was little. I'm actually trying to become a published author :)

I also think that my hatred for texting helps quite a bit ;p

[PaulaQ]

I also think that my hatred for texting helps quite a bit ;p

Proof you were never really a teenage girl! (I kid, I kid...)

[LenGray]

Hahaha, certainly seems that way these days, doesn't it? I had to explain to some kids the other day how to tell directions from the suns' position. Apparently, they couldn't figure out that the sun rises in the east without MapQuest -_-;

[Katey888]

Finding direction...? In the northern hemisphere, at our latitude, if you have an old-fashioned wristwatch, point the hour hand at the sun (never easy in our cloud-infested country) and south will be 12 noon... Easy... unless you have a digital watch... :) But I digress...

I hope you don't mind anyone else joining this thread - I find it's touching on that fascinating interaction between who we are innately and how we come to be defined sociologically and societally (which is not necessarily the same as nurture, I feel..) I hasten to add these are all my own jumbled meanderings of an entirely amateur individual, but at least one who is afflicted with an absurd need to sometimes present as another gender and so can claim some intimate knowledge at least through that.

I do believe that the root cause of our GD is something that operates at the biological or genetic level and it is this that underpins the development of us folk who are TG/TS. This discussion has predominantly featured three - what I chose to term - 'Primes' in our TG world. For me, a Prime (a form of absolute) is someone who has no uncertainty about their gender, even though that may be in conflict with their physical sex. So, neither Len, Paula, nor Reine have any uncertainty about their gender... you lucky people (in one way..).

Myself - and others spread across this TG multidimensional mosaic - well, we're somewhere in between... and it's how that middle ground is so stigmatised that interests me. And that, I believe, is sociological, because society - for us in western culture - is a consensual but arbitrary framework that is influenced by all sorts of inputs and which defines, by and large, what is acceptable and unacceptable, behaviour, values, standards, ethics and to some extent, fashions, dress and by extension, presentation (as to which gender we present).

It's a bit of a long-winded way to agree with most here, even if there might be some differences in the extent of how much nature versus nurture plays into this. My personal feeling is that this is predominantly nature - not entirely - but predominantly. I also think that what may appear to be nurture-based inputs are possibly the way that society messes with us and interacts... by that I mean, the examples of upbringing are themselves influenced by the mores and constraints of society. Most parents bring their children up with a view to getting them into the neat categories that society favours, if not demands... Who would want to do otherwise? Perhaps it's only the past 50-60 years or so that have seen such a liberalisation of attitudes towards alternative lifestyles that have allowed individuals to be more true to themselves and how they feel. Is it that period also that has allowed more of us to be more public about what we desire to do rather than keeping it firmly behind closed doors? It has definitively been the period when feminism has blossomed and females have had more success in making inroads to historically male pursuits - has this flexing in society also served the TG community? Yes - but not to the same extent - because we're still weird in that we don't fit into the categories that are accepted more by society and those categories (however much we may dislike labels, they are a part of what makes society function) are a result of historical development over centuries and decades and are enshrined in the things that enable society to work: legislation, institutions, roles, mores... all serve to maintain a structure for society and that must play a part in why we're stigmatised - because we don't easily fit!

All a bit waffly perhaps - but it isn't enough for us to know who we are, and know what we should be, and believe that it's alright... A significant part of the rest of society has to accept that those differences we demonstrate are real and valid before we can become more unconflicted about our roles.

I think that all makes sense - to me, somewhat, anyway... :)

Short answer: I think it's about 3-1 to nature over nurture... fundamentally we're freaks - we just have a ways to go to convince everyone we're gifted freaks.. :D

Katey x

[LenGray]

It's good to hear from you, Katey! :)

Haha, I can tell at a glance at the sky what time it is, pretty much. My mom had a horrible time teaching me how to read a clock but I caught on to reading the sky quick as could be. I still have problems with clocks occasionally...But to get back on topic ;)

I don't really feel as though I am a Prime, as you put it. Although I feel that I'm not comfortable with being a woman, I'm still not sure how far that feeling goes or what actions I'll take because of it. While it's true that I don't feel much conflict about being atypical in the eyes of society, I suspect that that's because, for me, it's simple problem solving like A+B=C. A)Who I am doesn't equal my own or society's view of women. B)What I feel and how I feel it aren't commonly accepted among men or women as being par for being a female. C)Therefore, I am either going to have to hide that I am female, become male, or become someone who is neither male or female, or who is both in order to live the life I want.