PDA

View Full Version : Do you go out dressed?



Megan.
04-06-2014, 10:16 AM
Hi there just a quick question how many of you great people go out fully dressed to bars and resturants trying to being as female as possible.

Jenelle
04-06-2014, 10:19 AM
I haven't but I will when I feel I present a better female image.

Jenniferathome
04-06-2014, 10:22 AM
I do. And once done, you will be amazed at how natural it seems. It is really such a strange thing when you think about it, going out and presenting as female, but for me it is some kind of validation as to who/what I am.

Once out and interacting, you forget you are dressed. It's really quite an amazing thing.

Rhonda Darling
04-06-2014, 10:31 AM
I do and, as Jennifer indicated, there's nothing like it. Once you get in the zone, you forget you're anything but a woman, out in the world.

Rhonda

Beverley Sims
04-06-2014, 10:49 AM
Only occasionally these days.
When I was younger, party, party, party. :)

Nadine Spirit
04-06-2014, 11:15 AM
for me it is some kind of validation as to who/what I am.


Totally agree with Jennifer.

I have been going out fully dressed for ?? 7, 8 years now and am bummed I didn't start earlier.

CarlaWestin
04-06-2014, 11:18 AM
It's on the list. Logistics is everything.

Zylia
04-06-2014, 11:31 AM
Barely, and not without being absolutely terrified. One does not simply walk out the door 'en femme'. 'You shall not pass' and all that.

Adriana Moretti
04-06-2014, 12:23 PM
as the weather warms up...i plan to head out more...mostly to resturants & bars kinda thing.......i want to be in nyc alot this year till we get to the dog days of summer...then i will be on the beach...

dana digs sweaters
04-06-2014, 12:26 PM
Yes as Adriana said, til the heat of summers descends upon us.
Been out to TG friendly bars, restaurants, and shopping & movies of course.

Kate Simmons
04-06-2014, 12:56 PM
When I go to the club to dance, I am female. :battingeyelashes::)

Debra Russell
04-06-2014, 12:57 PM
Once out and interacting, you forget you are dressed. It's really quite an amazing thing.

and ditto ......however not reasently:sad:...................Debra

cosmolovesph
04-06-2014, 01:12 PM
I do and I think we often think people notice us more than they really do... my issue is the restroom thing, try to find family restrooms *gender neutral* which make it easier than going as am presenting or physically am...

Kim_Bitzflick
04-06-2014, 02:02 PM
I go out to all the normal places as often as I can. I go grocery shopping, church, restaurants, movies, etc. And as for the restroom, I use the ladies room when I am presenting female.

Do people notice I am not a GG? Maybe. Do I care. No, as long as they treat me with respect.

carhill2mn
04-06-2014, 02:16 PM
A quick answer is "YES"!

Hell on Heels
04-06-2014, 02:31 PM
I haven't been to the bars or restaraunts. I am still waiting for the right time, and have plans for meeting with others from the forum. Practicing my patience, but it will happen!
Much Love,
Kristyn

natcrys
04-06-2014, 02:41 PM
Barely, and not without being absolutely terrified. One does not simply walk out the door 'en femme'. 'You shall not pass' and all that.

I'm sorry.. but I just had to do this:

MssHyde
04-06-2014, 02:47 PM
I go out as a female every time I dress... I've been to restaurants, movies, dancing.. and have gone to a couple of party's..

if my wife was excepting I'd be dressed most all the time. (if she was excepting I'd be on my way to being female)

Zylia
04-06-2014, 02:49 PM
I'm sorry.. but I just had to do this:
I'm glad at least one person got it :D

Helena
04-06-2014, 04:02 PM
My partner persuaded me to go out for the first time, and so far we have been to a local meeting, where we were made very welcome, and two or three times to the cinema. Like Zylia i found it terrifying, but did calm a little and it was certainly a boost afterwards. She has suggested grabbing a bite to eat before going to the cinema, which is a logical step but I haven't felt brave enough yet. It will happen. Ihope that I will feel like Jennifer, just happy and relaxed when out.

Helena

ClaireClark
04-06-2014, 04:05 PM
Hi all

Yes - I go out - was out today. Restaurants and bars are ok when you have somebody with you - regardless of their sex / gender, it's just nice to have people to sit and talk to while enjoying your meal / drink. Went grocery shopping en femme today, and have my eyes on a nice dress which I will try on tomorrow.

Claire

Ms. Laura
04-06-2014, 04:10 PM
OMG, the LotR references are killing me. Awesome!

I've been to trans friendly venues only, so far, but want more!

ArleneRaquel
04-06-2014, 04:14 PM
I nver go to bars alone, restaurants is a different story, but even there I usually go with a companion.

shawnsheila
04-06-2014, 04:32 PM
I go out as often as possible and love every minute of it. I get treated like a proper lady and like some of the other ladies here have said, after you get over being nervous, you enjoy it and it is one of the most liberation feelings you can experience :)

Also stay safe... if your going somewhere out in the evening, be sure to have one or more friends with you, just in case

Ashley.Rene
04-06-2014, 04:43 PM
I have never truly been out in public. I have gone for late night drives with the wife but have never got out of the car. I do plan to chage this however, and hopefully soon.

~Ash

AmyGaleRT
04-06-2014, 06:15 PM
I was out yesterday and may yet be out today (I'm all dressed for it :) ). I get out at least twice a month, and am hoping to improve that as the weather warms up this year. I enjoy being out and have never really had anything bad happen.

Oh, my fiancee just spoke up, looks like I have to go out to the grocery store and get steak! Gotta go get my purse! :D

- Amy

RenneB
04-06-2014, 06:55 PM
Yep, but it took a bazillion baby steps... The first few dozen times were a real thrill... now, I'm just an ol' lady out doing errands..

Bars, restaurants, museums, shopping malls, grocery stores...(not just wallyworld)... Being out and about has it's advantages, but there are still a few set backs. Was at a mainstream bar/restaurant the other day with four others (all cders) and as I approached the ladies room, "You can't go in there" came from the large black bouncer about 10' away. Got my panties in a twist but rolled with it.

It's still a fun and refreshing experience....

Renne.....

ClaireCole
04-06-2014, 07:17 PM
I've been outside and into a couple shops dressed, but never to a bar or restaurant - although I've never been to a bar or restaurant alone in guy mode. Guess I have to make some friends haha

wilt575
04-06-2014, 07:35 PM
I do and, as Jennifer indicated, there's nothing like it. Once you get in the zone, you forget you're anything but a woman, out in the world.

Rhonda

just be your self, been in girl mode so long just feel feel like woman don't have a male identiy any more

samantha rogers
04-06-2014, 08:04 PM
Yes and no... but soon that answer will be simply yes. :battingeyelashes:
So far I have only been out twice, both were to TG friendly "safe" events, but one involved going into a public restaurant (with a group of other girls) and both involved going out to clubs afterward. But in a couple of weeks a friend and I are going out shopping in the afternoon and I am so excited to try that.:heehee:
After that? Who knows? But I am never going back, that much is sure. It is way too much fun. Sigh... I sincerely regret having waited so long... I have a lot of time to make up for...:)

sabrinaedwards
04-06-2014, 08:13 PM
I enjoy going out fully dressed. This includes going to a place to eat, a bar, the casino, etc. I have come to believe that the general public really does not care what you are wearing.

Diane Smith
04-07-2014, 01:18 AM
Not every day, but probably every week or so, on average. It's a lot easier and more fun if you have a partner (of any combination of sex and gender) to go with you.

- Diane

Eryn
04-07-2014, 01:38 AM
I go out two or three times per week. I seldom go to bars. I love dining out, concerts, theater, shopping, etc. I just want to do the things that GGs enjoy while expressing myself as I wish.

Michelle789
04-07-2014, 01:55 AM
I've been out 6 times in the past two months, four times to a TG support group and dinner afterwards, and twice by myself shopping. I plan to get out more often and do things that any other girl would do: shopping, movies, dinner, hanging with friends, scenic drives. Yes it's true that once you're out you forget that you're dressed. Being out doing normal activities just seems like I'm doing normal activities as my true self. It does get easier as you get out more.

Babbs
04-07-2014, 01:58 AM
Gone out 4 times....although I'm not gay, I go to a gay bar 50 miles from home...safe not to be recognized and as I would have guessed a very safe accepting environment.

ClaudineD
04-07-2014, 02:18 AM
Best feeling in world!!!! Started years ago mainstreaming.....that first try can be soooooo anxiety driven.....but you would be amazed how far the world has come to not really care about gender presentation.....find the confidence and do it....no turning back.....

Wildaboutheels
04-07-2014, 02:21 AM
All the time. To... "everywhere" except where I work. [Although in the interest of full disclosure, I did attend a funeral a couple of weeks ago wearing "appropriate" shoes]

But I do it WRONG according to many here and would be a TACO dresser in their eyes.

And I have never been to any LGBT "event" or bar because neither has any appeal to me.

BUT... I am fortunate enough to live in Florida, which makes doin' "it" my way OK.

KaceyR
04-07-2014, 02:33 AM
I'm newish to it...only been out 7-8 times. Shopping, and to CD meetings over on the other side of the state.
Fun times!
Was in Grand Rapids Friday and after the meetup, went with 3 to Rumours, the GLBT bar. Man was that fun!
Wish I had pictures for the day.
(Also was my first time dealing with the dreaded 'using the ladies room in public' issue... :)
Need to get out more locally now to the bars here...

Persephone
04-07-2014, 02:35 AM
Yes, everywhere, restaurants, theaters, museums, national parks, etc.

Biggest "adventures": Multiple college classes en femme, 15-days/6,000 mile trip en femme on Amtrak, two weeks as a temp secretary at a major company, several vacations sharing condos and motorhomes with other women.

After all, "Girls just wanna have fun!"

Advice: It is fun to compare, to read, and to learn from each others' posts but please do not consider CD/TG/TS as a competitive event, just be yourself at whatever level and activity that you feel comfortable. It is as "legitimate" to be in the closet as it is to be "out and about."

Hugs,
Persephone.

prene
04-07-2014, 03:42 AM
I only go out in public in a groups. Safer and easier for me. I have been out with 2 gg friends and sometimes one guy comes also.
I have been out a few times just to drive thru's or walmart late and love it.
It still can be scary for me.
I have been out 2-3 times to Vegas but only went to see Amy at Glamour Boutique 2 hope to do more the next time.

Prene

Marcelle
04-07-2014, 04:17 AM
I go out at least once a week for Isha time. It normally is just running everyday errands I would have run "en boy" in the past with some side shopping thrown in for good measure. I have also been out to restaurants for dinner with GG and GM friends.

Hugs

Isha

flatlander_48
04-07-2014, 06:54 AM
The last time I was out completely dressed, I was pretty comfortable being me. However, sometimes when I had to deal directly with strangers it was a bit stressful. It's that fear of discovery, I guess...

Ellie52
04-07-2014, 07:11 AM
'Been there' 'Done that' and as far as Im concerned its not all that its cracked up to be. I pass quite well but feel silly, like over doing a fancy dress costume. Ever gone to a fancy dress party and as the night goes on you feel a bit silly, then want to go home and change?
I am a male and as much as Id like to be female sometimes Ill always be a guy in a dress.

Sallee
04-07-2014, 07:28 AM
Yes, I do I don't even dress unless I am going to get out. It is a thrill to me and I wish I knew why. I do dress to blend. In all the years of going out dressed I have never had a problem. I am sure I have been read but never a discouraging word Maybe a weird look.
I highly recommend it. but it can be addicting

Krisi
04-07-2014, 07:38 AM
I've been out "dressed" a few times but not to bars or restaurants. Nowhere where I would have to interact up close with people. I've walked the business and tourist sections of the city and been to parks. Also the mall.

I'm stuck in a rut but that's OK.

samantha rogers
04-07-2014, 07:51 AM
While I absolutely respect everyones decision to go out, or stay in or dress at whatever level at which they are comfortable within their personal situation, here is a question...is it possible that the desire to be out and interacting with the world rises in direct proportion to the degree of one's GID, and that for those for whom CD is almost exlusively a fetish driven sexual thing that going out is unnecessary? Not that it matters...just idle conjecture...:-)

NicoleD
04-07-2014, 08:08 AM
I haven't gone out dressed yet but the wife wants us to have a weekend away in Stockholm at some point in the near future to let Nicole venture out for the first time. I am both nervous and excited at the same time.

Dianne S
04-07-2014, 08:37 AM
is it possible that the desire to be out and interacting with the world rises in direct proportion to the degree of one's GID... ?

Yes, I think so. For years, I was a crossdresser and did not feel the need to go out. Recently, I have admitted that I am TS and wish to transition. Now, going out is very important to me for two reasons: First, I need to get used to presenting as female since I eventually intend to do that full-time. Second, I need to interact with other people as my true self. I still get nervous, but it's not completely panic-inducing the way it was the first time.

StaceyJane
04-07-2014, 08:42 AM
After the first time I went out dressed it was like a dam had been broken. I went to all sorts of places dressed. I rode the train, I went out to eat, I even took the tour at the Dallas Cowboys Stadium en femme just because I cold. I do as much crazy stuff nowdays but I still enjoy going out.

Karren H
04-07-2014, 08:44 AM
I do go out enfemme just about anywhere or everywhere but not to bars.... enfemme or not.... just not into the drinking scene.....

Tracii G
04-07-2014, 08:57 AM
I just go wherever I want enfemme. Not into the bar scene at all in girl mode.I don't drink so no point in it and I'm not looking for a hook up/male attention.
If I wake up feeling like going all girl for the day I just do it and do what I normally would do.

StephanieDragg
04-07-2014, 09:41 AM
yes go everywhere.. grocery shopping, movies, resale shops, bars, restaurants, hardware stores, gas station etc etc wherever I got to go

Jenniferathome
04-07-2014, 10:05 AM
..is it possible that the desire to be out and interacting with the world rises in direct proportion to the degree of one's GID, ...

Hi Samantha, for me, I identify as male and male only. Going out is not about me "thinking" I am female. I am not and when dressed I don't think "female." For whatever reason, it is a validation, kind of like screaming to the world that I am a cross dresser without making a sound and drawing attention.

samantha rogers
04-07-2014, 10:17 AM
Hi Samantha, for me, I identify as male and male only. Going out is not about me "thinking" I am female. I am not and when dressed I don't think "female." For whatever reason, it is a validation, kind of like screaming to the world that I am a cross dresser without making a sound and drawing attention.
This is the really amazing part of the entire CD/TG world...that there are so many levels and possible variations. There was another thread recently asking about where people fall on a scale of 1-10. All in fun I am sure, but at the same time so totally insufficient.
We are all drawn here because of shared interests, but truthfully we are all representative of a billion different points on a three dimential, extremely faceted gender spectrum. Fascinating. But fun...tee hee

Cheryl T
04-07-2014, 10:50 AM
Yes, all the time and have for the last 10 years.

sara.rafaela
04-07-2014, 11:34 AM
Yes, whenever I dress. I began in San Francisco, at a transgender bar, moved onto gay bars, then to some restaurants and bars that are more or less straight, finally out in daytime to ordinary places. Others are right in saying it is quite easier and normal than what you would think.

Princess Grandpa
04-07-2014, 11:51 AM
I go out several times a month fully presenting as Rita. We go dancing, my wife and I. After several outings to mainstream venues I have decided I much prefer the tgirl events. I dress daily in women's pants and tops but no wig forms, or make up. I go out dancing with the wife because We have so much fun doing it and Rita is teaching me to be a more social creature. I go out daily as this weird hybrid thing because that's who I truly am

Hug
Rita

MarisaRose.
04-07-2014, 12:26 PM
I used to go out once a month or so, but these days less so. It definitely is an experience that will make you appreciate who you are. I love the guy me and everything that I do as a guy, but dressing up and going out in girl mode is so much more rewarding, you really do feel alive. It's like finally realizing that this is who I am !!!

BLUE ORCHID
04-07-2014, 02:50 PM
Hi Megan, I think that I'm getting close to going out.

kendra_gurl
04-07-2014, 03:06 PM
I've been out over 50 times and they are becoming less frequent the last few years simply because the need is not as important as it used to be. Kinda like most things that after doing enough times it loses its initial appeal.

MsVal
04-07-2014, 04:09 PM
I do not go out dressed, but it is on the list of things I want to do.
As mentioned in another thread, it's not because I want to go out dressed, it's because I want to be able to go out without regard to how I am dressed. I don't want my choice of clothing to dictate whether or not I go outdoors.

Best wishes
MsVal

Ellie52
04-07-2014, 07:02 PM
I've been out over 50 times and they are becoming less frequent the last few years simply because the need is not as important as it used to be. Kinda like most things that after doing enough times it loses its initial appeal.

Kendra - EXACTLY EXACTLY. I wonder what is the point? I hate going to the shops as a male so why would it be any different in a dress. I went out several times to see what it was like, to many different venues and the result was the same at each. It quickly lost its appeal.
I didnt feel any different inside - just silly. I noticed young people look at you funny as they are much more aware than adults. They can tell something is wrong but maybe not what is wrong.
There must be something I am missing. But like Samantha says everyone is different and everyone has to make their own decision.

Sally24
04-07-2014, 08:42 PM
I go out at least twice a month with friends to our group meeting at a local club. I also get the chance every few months to go out shopping and dining with my wife and sometimes my grown daughter. I love karaoke and dancing but just doing regular things in the daylight is much more fulfilling for me. I could never go back to just "practicing" at home!

kimdl93
04-07-2014, 08:48 PM
I go out regularly, most often to daylight venues like Starbucks, the bank, the mall grocery store...even to get auto maintenance. For evening excursions I've pretty much done the whole range from restaurants and bars to the theatre. As others have said, when you finally get out, it feels so natural to be out among other people.

NathalieX66
04-07-2014, 08:52 PM
I'm out 2-5 times a month, in the most public of public eyes. I dress the way I feel.

Jillian Faith
04-07-2014, 08:55 PM
Only every chance I get unfortunately with my work schedule and family commitments is not very often. What out when this girl retires!

Michelle789
04-07-2014, 08:56 PM
Advice: It is fun to compare, to read, and to learn from each others' posts but please do not consider CD/TG/TS as a competitive event, just be yourself at whatever level and activity that you feel comfortable. It is as "legitimate" to be in the closet as it is to be "out and about."
Persephone.

Thank you Persephone. This is a journey and about expressing yourself. There are no winners or losers, and it's not a competition. Sometimes I sense the competition mentality on here, and a few times I've seen it expressed directly, and this is largely because of testosterone poisoning and being raised as a male. And no, I have not been watching too many Disney cartoons, although I like watching Disney cartoons and sitcoms sometimes.

JenniferYager
04-07-2014, 09:03 PM
Love the meme! I've been out before at both special events and just driving around. Once your heart stops racing over the realization that you're dressed as a girl in public, it becomes very relaxing.

Megan70
04-07-2014, 09:25 PM
Been doing it for almost 50 years. No big deal any more , becomes the new normal with everything already done, accomplished, been there done that. Bars, clubs, shopping movies and restaurants with my wife or alone, out to concerts with my friends posing as their wives, Ladies room, dressing rooms, done it all, blend in and chit chat with them like another GG and they haven't got a clue. Almost boring now. Reminds me of that Peggy Lee song song " Is That All there Is"

Alice Joyce
04-07-2014, 09:35 PM
I started going out recently, around 10 weeks now. I underdress 4-5 times a week, in total have only been out dressed probably 6 times. It does certainly make me feel absolutely Fabulous. I do start to get concerned when someone makes me, I just worry what are they going to do? To date I have been safe, not hassled by other folk. I do not go out of my way to draw attention to myself, all that has happened so far is some folk....look and do nothing......look, stare and laugh......whistle/hi darling.......I guess I should expect such things, as hard as I try I do not fully pass as a Lady.................more practice required. WT, Alice

ClaraKay
04-07-2014, 09:37 PM
Nope. Never have. But, I'm determined to do it. Funny thing is that 6 months ago I would never have entertained the idea. Things change. There's no standing still it seems. It does take a lot of courage to take that first big step out of the nest. Wish me luck.

Diana81
04-07-2014, 09:51 PM
I've done it a couple of times, got a bit tipsy and my CD friend managed to drag me out to some clubs. It was amazing but I'd rather not have done it, because now it's really tough to figure out which one of two lifes you'd rather live when you hate one of them and the other one is a diva life in which everyone treats you like a superstar.

And yes, I shouldn't have to choose which life to live but my everyday life is increasingly looking like a prison for me.

Isabella77
04-07-2014, 09:53 PM
So, I actually found a support group. I went out as Izabella tonight. It was pretty much my first time out and I was nervous as hell. It was so strange, but once I stopped worrying about what I was wearing and started observing everyone else I forgot how nervous I was. After a while it seemed like I was just another "girl" in the room. It was a small group and seemed close. I was new and was too nervous to reach out too much but it started to feel comfortable.
At this point in my life I don't really have anyone to come out with. The group setting seems to make sense. The have social outing where they go out as a group. To me this seems like a good place to start. It was comforting to hear the similarities I had with them. It was also a good social opportunity. I've been hiding Izabella for so long. It feels good to know that she just might make a couple of friends.

lindsey89
04-07-2014, 11:30 PM
Yeah, I go out all the time.

Lynn Marie
04-08-2014, 01:02 AM
Who doesn't? LOL Actually, I would guess that the vast majority of this forum are well closeted and many are quite happy with that situation. It's easily understandable with so much to lose if discovered. I'm retired and divorced and can do as I please with very little to lose, so I go out to select venues of my choosing whenever I like.

Michelle (Oz)
04-08-2014, 07:05 AM
Over the last 2 years I'm out 4 or so times a week just doing the things that I would do as a male who doesn't like bars. Definitely a male on the GID scale and no interest in transitioning.

So is dressing losing its interest? Some days it all seems too much bother ... the inconvenience of my dressing facilities (commercial storage garage), effort with makeup, distractions, etc. I still put in the effort and they usually turn out to be the best days.

I have an ever increasing circle of friends/acquaintances and enjoy the interaction. To them I'm not a man in a dress - just "Michelle". Love the interaction.

Claire Cook
04-08-2014, 07:22 AM
Going out more and enjoying it more! As others have said, it's a validation of who I am, and now it is natural and just feels right. If I am treated as female, that's great, but if not, that's OK too. I'm still me.

Lexi Moralas
04-08-2014, 08:14 AM
Not any more but I used to go out in public dressed for a couple of hours once a week or so usually on a week day.
I would go shopping for cloths , shoes ect. Or just walk around the mall. I loved it.
A couple of times I was able to get out to a CD friendly bar which was awesome.
If I had my choose I would go out in public every time I had the opportunity to dress

Karen kc
04-08-2014, 09:57 AM
Naw, I go dressed riding around at night, I dont consider that going out!

Robbin_Sinclair
04-08-2014, 11:06 AM
I did once and it was a disaster but not for the experience. That was cool.

I saw a musical in the middle of winter in Chicago, freezing, wearing the wrong shoes for the ice, etc. Going out was just fine. Getting ready after long series of travel delays was a chore. I felt like a woman when I went out because I felt like a tired woman doing all the things that have to be done to prepare. I learned to love my gender a bit more because it's so damn easy to put on pants, shoes and a shirt.

Down here I can't go out (too small an island) but I have my LBD and stuff ready for the next solo trip to the States.

Sorry about to too long of an answer. :hugs:

wanda66
04-08-2014, 05:04 PM
I got up the courage last weekend._jeans, light lipstick, earnings and sunglasses. Just window shoping...hiding in out in the open..it was a great afternoon.

Michaella
04-08-2014, 05:53 PM
Not to bars, no, as I never go to bars. But restaurants, yes, and museums, and theatres, and cinemas, and concert halls, and music clubs, and opera houses, and museums. This is what I do normally, and it is just even more enjoyable when I can dress femme. I love it, and wish I could do it more often.

Michaella

Vanessa In Secret
04-08-2014, 06:01 PM
At this point I have only been out to specific places that are known to be friendly.

beam47
04-08-2014, 06:29 PM
Zylia specially in the Netherlands is it ok to go out , people there are much more accepting then any where else in the world, I lived till my 29 the year in the Netherlands and in those days the were already more accepting , so don't be afraid in my outlook you defenate pass, as I don't , ejoy yourself and have agreat time

ophelia
04-08-2014, 07:59 PM
Whatever is the reason for dressing if not to go out? For me it's for going out.

sometimes_miss
04-08-2014, 08:43 PM
Let's see: I've taken out the garbage at 2 a.m. in the dark, wearing a black turtleneck top, black skirt and black stockings, and took a long ride at about the same time of night, with a not so good experience during that so I won't be doing it again. Nope, no rides for me. And after twisting my ankle out in the driveway in the dark while in drab and now knowing it could happen when in a skirt, I probably won't be doing that again either.

Tina G
04-08-2014, 08:49 PM
Here where i live now i've had a harder time going out dressed. Living in Nebraska far from a larger city makes it a little difficult. when i lived in the maryland/dc area it worked out a lot better.