Aggressive and protective

[mechamoose]

I have to explain and excuse my attitude tonight. I have my protective hackles up. I feel all kinds of things over those of us making apologies for who we feel we truly are.

Many of us started out in 'normal' relationships, and had the landscape shift under us, and then we work to try and understand how this change affected our families.

It *isn't* a failure. It *isn't* a weakness. We didn't lie. Things *changed*

We have been and can be honest partners. We have an extra challenge that most don't.

I hope you/we can find ways to integrate our selves into our 'standard' lives.

<3

- MM

[Joanne f]

Hello mechamoose,
it can be difficult at times as you say you know who you are but when you have a partner you really do not know how they will view it so it can become a strain on you , you see it as a simple thing they might not , it all depends on the degree of things and how people think personally .

[Beverley Sims]

Maybe I was lucky, the ground rules have never changed for me they may have shifted a little, not enough to notice though.

[PaulaQ]

I hope you/we can find ways to integrate our selves into our 'standard' lives.

Sometimes though, hon, who we really are is miles and miles away from who we presented to our spouse. At this point, I look at myself now, and sometimes shake my head and think "I never expected THIS about myself..." Sometimes there's just no integration possible.

[mechamoose]

Can you name a change that happened that you *did* expect?

To me, as an Asperger's Syndrome person, it is all about expectation management. 'Surprises' are hard for a lot of people to handle.

Talk. Talk again. Talk some more.

<3

- MM

[Marcelle]

Hi there,

I agree in principle that we can no more change what happened to us then we can stop the world from spinning and once we learn this about ourselves then we need to integrate it into our lives as best we can. Some of us come late to this. I hid/supressed my CDing tendencies for 24 years of marriage . . . Did I know? Yes, I suspected. Was I going to tell my wife? No, because it was a private part of me which did not interfere with here being (I did not begin dressing until last year . . . after I told her). However, once I realized supressing was causing severe emotional harm, not to mention my anger was destroying my marriage, I came clean. Did she accept? Yes and is very supportive to this day.

However, accepting ourselves and having others accept us are two different beasts. If you are going to tell anyone, SO or friends, you have to be prepared for the possibility they will tell you to "take a hike". In the same way I cannot stop being who I am, I have to respect those who cannot accept me for who I am because that is who they are.

Hugs

Isha

[mechamoose]

However, accepting ourselves and having others accept us are two different beasts. If you are going to tell anyone, SO or friends, you have to be prepared for the possibility they will tell you to "take a hike". In the same way I cannot stop being who I am, I have to respect those who cannot accept me for who I am because that is who they are.


You have to accept yourself before anyone else has a chance to do so.

If someone has a problem with me, Then *they* have a problem with *me*. If your friends don't accept you for you, then are they really your friends?

"To thine own self be true (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonius)"

[PaulaQ]

Can you name a change that happened that you *did* expect?

Talk. Talk again. Talk some more.

<3

- MM

Nah, I'll be honest, a year ago I couldn't have imagined what my life would be like now. I'm a queer trans woman living in a place that used to scare the hell out of me, the gay district here. My transition is underway - I live as a woman now, I'm on HRT. I'm getting electrolysis. My social life is mostly spent around GLBT folks. There's more, but you'll have to PM me for that stuff.

My wife just isn't ready to hear what I'd say now. I don't even know if I'll see her at our divorce. It's just as well, she misses her husband, and I don't really look, sound, dress, or act like him anymore. She's pretty unlikely to like me much, even if I wasn't her husband in the past. I'm not the type of person she'd ever befriend.

I'm just too different now. Words won't help, not right now and probably not ever.

Some of us turn out to nice little straight girls who live relatively heteronormative lives - that would've been a bad surprise, but at least something she'd understand. (She wouldn't have wanted me to stay though in that case either.) I ain't that type of girl though.

Edit: on acceptance - I accept who and what I am. I expect I won't find everyone to be so accepting - I'm pretty far out there. I'm willing to lose people to be myself.

[Marcelle]

You have to accept yourself before anyone else has a chance to do so.

If someone has a problem with me, Then *they* have a problem with *me*. If your friends don't accept you for you, then are they really your friends?

"To thine own self be true (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonius)"

I agree, you have to accept yourself first. If a friend does not accept me for who I am are they really my friend? That depends. If a wife accepts her husband's CD but never wants to see or hear about (DADT) she is still his wife. My older sister does not truly accept Isha but she is still my sister.

I have a very close friend who does not accept Isha. He is coming around and accepts (in theory) that I do what I do but he does not approve at all. We talk professionally, interact but we don't do our old guy things anymore. He is still my friend as I am not willing to give up on him. Now if a friend yells "pervert, freak" then without hesitation I would throw that person to the wolves.

It is not always black and white when it comes to acceptance IMHO.

Hugs

Isha

[mechamoose]

I expect I won't find everyone to be so accepting - I'm pretty far out there. I'm willing to lose people to be myself.

...and there is the crux of it. What are you willing to lose in order to be yourself?

I will say that I'm surprised at how LGBT issues are *not* more in the forefront here. I know that most CD'ers are straight, but we are challenging gender norms. We should have more obvious links.

To quote a friend:
"I'm more of a man that you will ever be, and more of a woman than you will ever have!"



If a wife accepts her husband's CD but never wants to see or hear about (DADT) she is still his wife.

'Wife'. That is a family/role assignment. It has nothing to do with who the members of that family are.

You are partners... you promised yourselves to each other. You promised to help each other, to protect each other. "In sickness and in health".

I don't see how gender presentation changes those promises. You are still *you*, right?

[Marcelle]

You are preaching to the converted when it comes to acceptance from your SO. I told my wife after 24 years. I did not see myself as lying as I did not even understand what was going on. She accepted and is supportive.

However, you have to admit for some wives it might be a "bridge too far" to learn your husband wants to wear your clothes and promises past may not be enough. We cannot fault them for that as that is who they are just as they cannot fault us for who we are.

The cold hard reality of this thing we do is . . . I can accept myself for who I am (and I have), others (my wife included) can accept me for who I am, while others (my older sister) can tolerate who I am while others still most likely despise who I am. That is human nature and we cannot change it. For some of us, SOs may fall into the any of those categories (including despise).

Hugs

Isha

[Erica Marie]

Im not sure exactly how to answer this but Im going to give it a whirl.

As far as the word "excuses" that may not be the right term but for a lack of a better one lets go with that. For many here I dont think the landscape shifted but lets say tilted just a bit more than it was. I feel the majority here had gone into a relationship knowing full well that they were a crossdresser but not knowing to what extent. Maybe some thought it would just go away, maybe some where hoping for acceptance, and some here are still hiding it. For those who truly and honestly had a change happen that was unexpected then I understand. Thats where the "till death do us part comes in", but for any of us INCLUDING MYSELF, who go into a relationship knowing, and if something happens down the road. Then there is no room for excuses, sure we could hope we are accepted by our s/o but if not can we blame them. Sure we are still the same person in our eyes, but in their eyes we changed. Some will be accepted and some wont. All we can do is hope. For me I vow to never start another relationship without being upfront about it. I been through enough that it is not fair to the other person nor is it fair to ourselves.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant but, we all learn that honesty will always be the best policy.

[Katey888]

MM - you might have to explain but I don't think you should feel the need to excuse how you feel (but it is a nice type of old-fashioned politeness to do so... :))

I agree with what you say about the LGBT connection - but I can also understand how the 'T' of that is both a bit of an adjunct (and a more complex one in many ways) and within the CD/TG/TS span there is a huge variation in behaviour, needs, perspective, lifestyle, impact... It's not a simple issue at all and very few people really understand it even a little, including a lot of us directly affected by it...

I'm sure this is familiar to others, but there are days when I can't accept myself and what I do - what I want to do, what I know I feel good doing... And those days hurt - those days remind me why I have not revealed this condition to anyone who knows me 'sans-girl'... (that's all of you excluded, obviously..) On the other hand, just being exposed to these feelings I think has made me a more accepting individual myself... But that's probably not a 'normal' person reaction to 'T' conditions... and therein lies the problem with the 99% of muggles...

Patience and harmony...

Katey x

[mechamoose]

I'm sure this is familiar to others, but there are days when I can't accept myself and what I do - what I want to do, what I know I feel good doing... And those days hurt

Are those days ones where you are thinking about the perceptions of others?

How much of our baggage is due to thinking about the acceptance of others, rather than acceptance of ourselves?

<3

- MM

[Katey888]

It's not entirely about me - it certainly shifts... probably 70:30 others:me - so yes, predominantly others - but that's trying to change the habit of a lifetime..

Rationally, I understand that this is about self-acceptance... but I think I'm still processing what I've come to understand about myself only in the past 6-8 months or so - before that, this was something that was more partitioned for me and something that I actively supressed... I admit it! I did supress it deliberately but because - perversely - I thought it was the right thing to do... I was an addict with a controllable habit, that's the way I see it looking back - but now I understand that this is so much more than that - that there was so much more of me that was supressed and repressed and - like Isha - probably led to stress and anger sometimes, and that feeling still comes back sometimes which is why I think I'm still coming to terms with it. It's not as easy as just understanding how to... bake a cake or something... it's a fair bit deeper and puzzling. It offends my sense of the logical and rational and attracts my rebellious, alternative and creative nature all at the same time... AAAARRRGGGHH!! :facepalm:

Half the time I'm glad I found this place and the other half - well, ignorance is bliss isn't it...? :)

Must go and do something normal now.... :) Katey x

[mechamoose]

t offends my sense of the logical and rational and attracts my rebellious, alternative and creative nature all at the same time... AAAARRRGGGHH!!


You are on the right track, hon.

You are who you are. Don't be sorry for it!

Find a way to be you without being a burden. Don't feel like you have to apologize for being pretty.

<3

-MM

[sometimes_miss]

You are partners... you promised yourselves to each other. You promised to help each other, to protect each other. "In sickness and in health".

I don't see how gender presentation changes those promises. You are still *you*, right?

The vast majority of women will feel that they were 'lied to' about who we were when we got married, and use that justification for being angry. Our attraction to another, and also love, is based on what we know of them, not on who they actually are. When you toss in something that really changes who we see out partner to be, whether that be that they're a seriel killer, a wife beater, or god forbid A CROSSDRESSER!, well that changes completely how she will feel about you. The attraction is gone, the feeling that they can trust you is gone, and then the love is also gone.
And then the marriage is over. Women feel that they married someone in particular. When you are 'no longer that person', and in fact, never were as she sees it, she has in her mind all the justification she needs to want a divorce. And once the anger sets in about 'being fooled about who he is', we're screwed, too.

[mechamoose]

I get that.


Women feel that they married someone in particular. When you are 'no longer that person', and in fact, never were as she sees it, she has in her mind all the justification she needs to want a divorce. And once the anger sets in about 'being fooled about who he is', we're screwed, too.

Intent.

It isn't that you did changed on purpose. Right?

"Blame" and "responsibility" are not the same thing.

I'm not saying that we are blameless, I'm saying that it wasn't our intention.

If the marriage can survive, it is because we can talk. We can share our needs.. without all the baggage. "I'm still that person you fell in love with".

That can be true, even when you are showing Her instead on Him.

She just needs to understand how that fits.

You can be everything she wants and still wear a skirt. She just needs to know that you are the same cool person you have always been. Give her things she can hang on to, like your dedication and commitment. Focus on that, and the pink fog won't be as threatening.

<3

- MM

[MsVal]

I kinda agree with you Mechamoose, I kinda don't.
Yes, things have a way of changing. They always have and always will.

We can anticipate and plan for many changes. Anticipating the following November, we plan to buy reduced price winter clothing in February. We save for retirement. We put plans in place for unanticipated changes when we buy insurance.

When we enter into marriage and speak the vows, we have only a vague idealistic idea of the changes that may come in the following years. Things like handling a disagreement on where to buy a house, handling a job loss, or a serious illness may come to mind.

Some changes don't come to mind. The discovery that a spouse has drained the finances through gambling losses, the spouse has sexually abused your child, the spouse has been living a separate, secret life as a woman, or the spouse has a secret, same-sex lover. (no, they are not equivalent, but exemplary)

Those are seismic changes that challenge even the strongest marriages.

As for other relatives and friends, I think I agree. There is no covenant, no vow, only a vague set of expectations. Their lives are not so intimately intertwined that it would require divorce attorneys to sort through the pieces in a breakup.

By definition (mine, anyhow) the truest of friends will care as much about each other's feelings as their own. These are the ones I would expect to be most likely to handle seismic changes, and perhaps handle them better than a spouse who's life is intertwined.

Best wishes
MsVal

[samantha rogers]

Wow...that hits it on the head in my case. Since having "the talk" back in January, she has wrestled with exactly those feelings..."I lied to her", "I am not the man she married", "no longer attracted to me" and so on. And this after nearly twenty five years together.
Granted, she has not walked away, but has also not ruled our doing so in the future.
And, to her credit, we are still good friends, there is still love there, and in most ways life goes on as usual. And she is trying to understand, though she wants nothing to do with Samantha, or anything to do with counselors, other SOs of TGs, or any kind of support groups.
And coupled with this is the fact that kids and financial factors certainly make staying together far more practical than any other course, from both of our points of view.
But it does raise the question which haunts me as well as her, whether a marriage remaining in place merely for comfort and security but without passion, is better than no marriage but the prospect of something better now possible however unlikely at our age that may be.
Day by day.

[PaulaQ]

...and there is the crux of it. What are you willing to lose in order to be yourself?

Everything.


I will say that I'm surprised at how LGBT issues are *not* more in the forefront here. I know that most CD'ers are straight, but we are challenging gender norms. We should have more obvious links.

I agree. There is a fair amount of homophobia and even in some rare cases transphobia here. It's kind of sad - we need all the allies we can get... (In all fairness, there are some trans women who aren't very accepting of CDs either - this makes me so sad, and so angry, when I see it. I stand up to it whenever I see it.)

[Sandra]

You are partners... you promised yourselves to each other. You promised to help each other, to protect each other. "In sickness and in health".

I don't see how gender presentation changes those promises. You are still *you*, right?

It goes a lot deeper than that they find out after years of marriage that their man like to do this and has kept it from them, couldn't trust them enough to say something about it all. In some cases it's not the fact that the man cds but the fact that he spends all the spare money on it, and yes in some case money has been used that is for everyday house keeping, and when the wife does know then most men think it's a green light to do what they want all the time without even thinking about the wife and how she is feeling. The wife tries to explain how she feels then she gets thrown at her "oh your not supporting" doesn't matter that the man hasn't bothered to listen to how she is feeling. So it runs a lot deeper than You are still *you*, yes it is a part of who they are but there is so much more.

[Lorileah]

I had a high ideal of what love was. You get married for LOVE right? And love stands by you no matter what. I still like to believe that and it did work in my case but I see a lot here that argues against it. The thought has been broached about not expecting changes after marriage but honestly if people told the truth both partners look at things and say "Hey I can put up with that now but I will change it later". Idealistically when you marry, the world is perfect. We know that isn't true. However, and this is one thing I hope to accomplish here, we as TGs have the ability to lessen the trauma of funding out that the man they married isn't he man they married. I would say you should tell before the vows. That is the best because the equity is low. But we know that the majority here don't for a myriad of reasons. Still early is better. But back to love. In my mind if you really love someone you will work to keep that person in your life, two way street that too. I still believe that love don't leave. I am romantic that way. But IMO a lot of today's marriages aren't about love. They are about getting something, maybe comfort, maybe protection, maybe normalcy. When I read about a woman who is adamant about her husband CDing I always question, maybe wrongly, if she ever really loved him. When I read that a woman i willing to listen and not rush to judgement I know she loved (loves) him. When two people agree to work through it and make adjustments for each other, that to me is love. I was lucky (I know some of you are saying Oh no not again) because I think I found that type of love twice in my life. Neither ever threatened to leave over the stupid silly things I probably did. We worked them out and compromised. I know people who are like that, who have weathered the storm and came out stronger, who loved the partner no matter what. 27 years for me (actually 30 years total). The woman was a saint because I didn't like ME how could she? But both were advised of my desires early on and both accepted them in their own way. I cannot imagine what either would have done if I was later. MF would I think have embraced it. My wife would have put it in a DADT...I think.

So the long and winded point I was trying to make is "Yes you are the same person inside" but hat is hard to see when you have worked hard to be subversive and untrusting. I know it isn't done intentionally for the most part. "We" hide and sneak because we are told we have to. But now, those who are on here can see that it isn't true. So "we" have to get over our own demons first. If we can do that, then the chances of a lasting relationship IMO is higher. Remember equity.

[Tracii G]

Sandra make a good point...............................I'll back away from the podium now.

[PaulaQ]

I still believe that love don't leave. I am romantic that way.

I simply can't believe this anymore. :( I will tell anyone who I love in the future that I don't own them. They don't own me. They are free, as am I. If they want to be with me, I want them. If they don't, or they need to leave to really be who they need to be, I'll never stand in their way, much though it may hurt for a time.

I don't believe in unconditional love anymore. I've never experienced it. I don't think it exists. I fully expect to be abandoned when I become inconvenient to love - if my health deteriorates, I fall into hard times, I get old, or even boring. I'll be alone.

I don't see any point in pretending this isn't true - I've never seen anything else, except for horrible codependence that keeps people together who make each other miserable.

I'm simply not even going to pretend - I'll ask my lovers to be honest with me - if they want to leave, just say so. If they want to be with another sometimes - just talk to me about it first. Everything is negotiable except the promise of permanence. No one should put such conditions on an inherently unpredictable future. No vows to shatter, no promises to break. Just whatever we have right now.

For me, love is a prison. I give and give and give - and get so little in return. Frozen in time, the perfect image of what they need, regardless of my needs. And they love me - oh yes they do - at least until I've given all I have. Then they are through with me. And somehow, complicit in all this, I feel I turn otherwise functional people into dysfunctional and dependent blobs. I feel horribly guilty about that - why would I want to do that to another person again? I DON'T wan to hurt anyone else.

I see no point in pretending it's otherwise. It's all I've ever known.

I'm weeping now, so I guess I'll end here. I wish I still believed in love. I just can't anymore.

[samantha rogers]

Oh, Paula, honey, I just want to reach out and hug you. I can see you have gotten a bum hand, and I so appreciate and empathize. I can't really do anything to help other than to offer that you are not alone, that there are many others also suffering, and that despite appearances, if you allow it, life has a way of surprising us when we least expect it. Don't stop hoping, honey.
Big hugs.

[Katey888]

Samantha - those are caring and generous sentiments towards Paula - I feel the same way... Don't give up hope Paula - if you keep hoping and trying you never know what may change for you... :hugs:

I used to be idealistic about love in relationships but not anymore - most folk I know may marry for lust or infatuation as much as love, and just as many for a whole host of other, much less aspirational and affectionate reasons like economics, image and sometimes just procreation! The only commonplace unconditional love is the one you find from a parent to a child... rarely in regular relationships, in my experience...

I think every relationship is different: different personality dynamics, different pressures, backgrounds, aspirations... all these factor into how partners respond... Lexi conveyed a good explanation of how this can misfire with completely rational, reasonable expectations on both sides and MsVal too has hit some important points on how partnerships modify over time. What I struggle with is the sometimes feeling that I absolutely should apologise for being the way that I am - and often wishing that I wasn't... Those seem like insurmountable barriers to self-acceptance sometimes...

I've come back to this again and I'm sure I shouldn't have - I know I'm overthinking it now and I need to go do normal again! Sorry to be blathering...

Katey x

[samantha rogers]

I think the mistake so many people make is in believing that love is simply an emotional response or feeling...such as one might say "I love my car". But it isn't. Real love...at least I refuse to stop believing this...is that same emotion but so much more. It is more importantly a verb. Love is an action. It is how, if we are truly honest, we act toward those for whom we have that emotion. " I love" means taking action to help the person you love. Which is why saying you love your car or a new dress, or whatever, demeans the real thing. By this definition you can truly love only another person (alright...maybe an animal,too...I do love my dog...tee hee). And truly loving them means putting their best interest ahead of your own, even if that means losing them...at least, that is how I see it.
Then again, I also know that over time people change and needs and desires change, and sometimes the love that brought you together fades and fails. Sometimes for both, but sometimes, sadly, just for one.
But I cannot help but believe also, that that kind of fade does not or should not occur with the click of a switch. I choose to believe that real love will withstand an admission along the lines of crossdressing. But only if that love is real and mutual. And if it cannot, then what kind of poor excuse for love was it to begin with?
Sometimes, I think...a marriage that ends because of cd'ing was doomed anyway, or at least a pale substitute for what a real, loving partnership can and should be.
But what do I know? Thats just what I believe, I guess.
I hope all of you are lucky enough to experiece that kind of real love. It does exist.
Hugs

[Jaylyn]

I have sat and read all this. I feel I did marry for love. I know some don't believe this but I did find my soul mate. When we married some 43 years ago and I knew I liked dressing up in my moms things then. I did not show my wife that part of me at that time. We told each other in our vows for better or worse. We have had better and we have had worse. We are not the same teenagers we were when we married. At that time we were part of a generation that believed in free love and loud rock music. We wore the traditional garb, bell bottom pants and she wore puffed up ratted hair. I actually had hair that matched somewhat a Elvis cut he had then. Have we changed ...yes. Have we accepted that change would happen... Yes Do we still love each other 100% .... Yes Do we fuss and fight.... Yes, but we did agree not to hurt each other's feelings and that no secrets ( except birthdays n presents ) would be held privately. We have experienced about every thing life can throw at us. We have lost a grandchild, we have weathered four great children who are all successful. Not one divorce yet. The youngest is 38 and has been married since he was 21. All college educated, all with kids of their own. We had to have done something right or these things would not have happened. We believe in education and free thinking. We believed also that to spare a child from being disciplined is to not love that child. None of them, or my wife and I even know a counselor. Everything we did was passed on to us from our parents, God fearing, country values, people caring and having a concern for your neighbor parents. Maybe we have been living with those rose colored glasses on but I'll be dang if it hasn't worked for us. We both are nearing our golden years as some call it. The years of the retirements, Medicare, and maybe one day facing the fact that one of us might die. I can truthfully say we have worked hard to build our marriage to not fail. We believe in things working for the better. We don't let ourselves nor the kids ever talk negative about anyone or anything, rather to always say something positive or keep your mouth shut. We are still as much soul mates as we were when we met that day. We tell each other good morning with a kiss and a hug daily. Our philosophy has and always will be " Its you and me against the world baby". She accepted me when I started dressing, I accepted her when she was started wrinkling and getting older. We both fight for holding on to our youth daily by exercise, eating right, hard work and always paying our way, and loving others as ourselves. I believe you can find that in the good book. We are different but we are the same. I know I ramble but just wanted to say what has worked for us. We believe unconditional love does exist.

[Momarie]

That was lovely Jaylyn and very honest.
An inspiration to me.
My best to you, your wife and family.

So many of these kind of threads seem to ultimately lay the blame with the woman/wife, if in a veiled disingenuous way.
There's this undercurrent of what we failed to do/accept/support.
Whatever pain, hurt or confusion this caused us couldn't possibly compare and therefore is barely acknowledged and seemingly dismissed.

[samantha rogers]

Momarie - I suppose I should have written what I did more carefully and foreseen my words would be misinterpreted. I apologize. It was not my intention to lay blame upon the woman in a failing relationship, anymore than upon the male.
I speak of real love in a general sense, and with full awareness that every case is different, and that failure comes from many places. There is often plenty of blame to go around.
I speak with a degree of personal sadness based upon my own relationship, as any of us would, I expect. I love my own wife deeply and always have. I have made great sacrifices over the years, both in career and personally, in order to honor that love, and provide for her a home with safety and security and love. I made a vow to do so and have willingly done whatever was needed. It was my honor to do so. I would literally go to the wall for her. This despite the hardship which "issues" of hers, which she refuses to acknowledge or confront, have caused in our relationship, and within our family. And the only area in which I have ever deceived her was in relation to my own GID, a factor I was unable to understand or deal with honestly and effectively, despite trying with every fiber of my being, right up until the moment when I turned to her for understanding and help.
My wife was diagnosed with a chronic disease many years ago. As a result, many choices have been made at great cost to me and our family, in order to ensure her well being. I have never begrudged this or felt bitterness in the slightest. It was not her fault, and it was my honor and responsibility to care for her. I did so gladly. I could not, in my wildest moments of selfishness, have ever considered any other action.
But in much the same way, I consider my GID as something for which I bear no more responsibility than she does her illness. Now that I need her, as she has needed me, I find she is wavering. I hope it may be understood, that while I certainly understand her shock and pain, I am myself pained to discover that the support I had hoped for in my need is not there as mine was for her in hers.
Beyond this, I now discover that my wife has for several years been corresponding secretly with an old lover from before our marriage. She states that they only do so as friends, and she may well believe that, but in retrospect, I can recognize that her behavior both toward me and in other ways, began to change around the same time this "relationship" resumed. But I take her at her word, and do not complain because that is how I view love. If corresponding with him is something she needs to be happy I do not begrudge that either.
I will never leave her. My love and my vows were real and are real. If the marriage fails it will be because she decides to leave me. And if that happens, I will allow her to go, knowing it is what she feels she needs in order to be happy. And, I will be happy for her, and rooting for her to succeed. But I am, as I said, wistfully sad, knowing that the love I have born for her all of these years is, apparently, and at least at this moment, not returned to the same degree.

But there is a broader sense at work here. When I spoke of true love being enough to withstand a shock, I understand that it may have seemed I was being cavalier and resentful. I was not. If a marriage really is solid, free of other problems, and based on that real love of which I speak, and equally from both sides... well... I am enough of an optimist and a romantic to believe it can withstand almost any shock. If it cannot, whether that shock be a crossdressing husband or a cheating wife, or any of a thousand other things, then it is not the shock that killed the marriage.

PS - Sorry to have taken this thread so far off track here. Mea Culpa.

[PaulaQ]

A brief question:

What's the difference between the breakup of a marriage between a trans* and their spouse, and a parent who rejects their trans* child, throwing them out on the street, or shunning them if they are adults?

Both of these things happen quite frequently to trans*. My conclusion is that love means something different for trans*, and that we aren't viewed as being very desirable human beings because we are trans*, but perhaps there is some other explanation I haven't thought of.

[Michelle789]

I agree. There is a fair amount of homophobia and even in some rare cases transphobia here. It's kind of sad - we need all the allies we can get... (In all fairness, there are some trans women who aren't very accepting of CDs either - this makes me so sad, and so angry, when I see it. I stand up to it whenever I see it.)

This is very sad. This is why I keep giving positive thinking rants, and why spiritual principles are good for us. I find it's people who are more spiritually grounded (not necessarily religious or churchgoing) who tend to be more accepting. Doom and gloom people are usually phobic of just about anything, while positive thinkers are more open-minded.

[PaulaQ]

Doom and gloom people are usually phobic of just about anything, while positive thinkers are more open-minded.

I don't know if it's even phobic. In another thread, someone pointed out hilariously that people - both men and women, and hierarchical and competitive. And that's true - despite a rather silly statement I made about it.

The operating principle for most of the world is simply this:

"Some people are more valuable than others"

Look around the world - there are myriad examples of this. Our country was founded, in part, on this principle. Trans* are simply very low on the hierarchy almost everywhere. So much of the world has no problem with treating us like garbage - because from their perspective, we literally are human garbage.

[donnalee]

I believe love is a learned behavior, marriage is an economic contract above all and only lust is instantaneous. I mean no disrespect to those that chose to do so; we didn't and were together for 43 years. She had been through a bad marriage; I had a fiance who dumped me (not her fault; she had her own reasons and they were good ones). We met and found ourselves mutually attracted. We decided on a relationship without marriage; she kept her stuff, I did the same and we were there because we wanted to be. It took about 5 years before we realized we loved each other, during which there were separations, some lengthy. We were each free to have private information (the tell each other everything idea is highly overrated; it's either TMI or coercion); we respected each other's privacy.

[renees]

Maybe "lied to" is too strong and not the proper wording. "Not trustworthy" might be more fitting. Even though I became aware of my SO's CDressing only a few months into our relationship and not years in, I still felt a bit hurt. The person who professed to be in love with me didn't feel they could trust me with what was obviously an important part of themself. I understand there must have been a great deal of uncertainty going on in my SO's mind (my reaction, what this might mean for our relationship) but I wish (s)he would have given me the benefit of the doubt knowing my love for her/him.

We are, after all, only human, and not always in complete control of our feelings or how we react.

[mechamoose]

I will say that I am blown away by the level of responses this thread generated. I was all full of piss and vinegar when I started it, but I had no idea what kind of a nerve I was striking.

It's been really good to read.

(Special hug for Paula)

[CynthiaD]

I think that everyone has a right to be judged on the content of their character rather than their choice of clothing. If you treat others with respect, why shouldn't you expect the same thing in return?

[PaulaQ]

I understand there must have been a great deal of uncertainty going on in my SO's mind (my reaction, what this might mean for our relationship) but I wish (s)he would have given me the benefit of the doubt knowing my love for her/him.


There are several reasons we do this:
1. Society can be EXTREMELY hostile to us: (example)
Transvestite Teaches Elementary Students In Lumberton ISD (http://www.freedom1300.com/?deeplink_referrer=socialB_facebook#!Transvestite-Teaches-Elementary-Students-In-Lumberton-ISD/c1bjp/84B43AE2-D8F9-4CCE-846F-C7ECEEBBC925)

2. Many of us don't want to admit it to ourselves, denying this is a part of us for a long time.

3. It's hard not to absorb society's messages - how would YOU go about telling someone you dated: "Hey, date me, but I'm DEEPLY FLAWED?" CDs aren't deeply flawed, but it's how so many feel. How do you even start that conversation?

I'm not trying to rationalize your SO's behavior, just explain possible motivations. Telling you a few months in might have been the soonest she could really trust you. Would you have given your SO your bank account numbers after a few dates? Because being outed as a CD could be just as destructive to her depending on her profession and situation. How would she know you wouldn't do such a thing, reacting in disgust and revulsion?

[renees]

I'm sure that was the soonest my SO felt safe enough in telling me. The feeling of not being trusted was my initial, gut reaction. From the get go of our relationship I had openly discussed my views on sexuality and my thoughts and views that people should explore and embrace who they are and could be. I had shared with him/her that I had known I was bi-sexual since I was thirteen and how awkward I had felt and had been ridiculed (it wasn't as acceptable as it seems to be now), but had finally, in my thirties, come to the conclusion that this was me and others could take me or leave me. I'm sure it was naive on my part, but at the time I felt these discussions would have allowed my SO to see me as someone who would be accepting.

I love my SO dearly, (s)he means everything to me and knows I accept her completely.

[mechamoose]

II had shared with him/her that I had known I was bi-sexual since I was thirteen and how awkward I had felt and had been ridiculed (it wasn't as acceptable as it seems to be now), but had finally, in my thirties, come to the conclusion that this was me and others could take me or leave me.

Points for deliberate ambiguity on Hir gender. :) :)

If someone has a problem with me, then *they* have a problem with *me*. **I** don't have a problem, THEY do.


I love my SO dearly, (s)he means everything to me and knows I accept her completely.

To me, it is about communication. You HATE doing laundry but will suck up doing dishes? Talk!

You HATE the leftover shaving bits on the sink but accept panties hanging in the shower? Talk!

I have a wonderful girl who accepts me for who I am, and *encourages* me to express myself (and I do the same in return).

Talk. Talk again. Talk some more.

<3

- MM

[PaulaQ]

I'm sure that was the soonest my SO felt safe enough in telling me. The feeling of not being trusted was my initial, gut reaction.

I'm so sorry you experienced that, particularly when you'd come out yourself, first, and coming out as bisexual is a big deal - y'all don't have it easy either. And in fact, your SO really ought to have seen that you'd be accepting, bisexual women tend to be. She may not have known that though, as most straight people don't know a whole lot about bisexuality.

All I can really say is she must not have been ready to come out yet. Perhaps this was the first time she'd ever come out - that's usually the hardest one.

I think you were very brave to come out early in the relationship - I really mean that. You obviously have reached a point of self-acceptance that is so hard for so many.

[Angie G]

It was a bit difficult coming out to my wife witch is the only one that knows Angie. I know it was difficult for her but she knows where it comes from and accepts me for who I am. And she gets her man when she needs him.:hugs:
Angie

[devida]

Well, it's a real glitch in most people that we don't understand and accept that change is the natural order of things, that nothing remains the same, that everything and everybody changes. It actually doesn't matter if you are trans, gay, bi, or anything else, what the actuality of life is that everything and everyone changes. We try really hard to believe the delusion that things remain the same, but they don't, because we are living beings, not the statues of our ideas. It would probably be better if we could all grow up and accept this basic fact of life, but we don't. And I guess we have to have compassion and kindness that our minds are structured so we and everyone else imagines we can stay frozen in some ideal place in which what we said at some distant time in the past is true eternally. I'm not the man I was when I was 19, when I married my first wife, or 36 when I married my second. I am not even a man any more. I'm lucky that I have a companion who understands that we all do change and that change is what life is all about and isn't hauling around some ridiculous ideal of what her husband should be from half baked ideas from her early conditioning. I am truly sorry and have a great deal of sympathy for anyone who has bought into this very common human delusion. But I won't and can't live my life lying about who I am right now. I won't live according to the expectations of others. It's simply too difficult. I have enough of a job recognizing that I can't even live according to the absurd expectations I have of myself! Self acceptance means accepting the person I am this very moment, not some idea of who I think I should be, would like to be or kid myself I am. This is by no means easy because we do, or at least, I do change all the time. I can fool myself that I know who I'll be in a month or next year, but I'll still be a fool for believing it.

[Helen_Highwater]

This is a thread that resonants with me. Before I married did I know that I was CD? Answer no. Why, because I didn't understand what it was that I was experiencing.
I didn't enter the relationship knowingly living a lie. However years later as I became to partly understand the person I am it left me in the position of loosing that which I hold dear while still being ignorant of exactly to what extent my CD'ing was a driver in my day to day life.
So it is this that stoped me telling all to my SO.
I am still the "man" she married and as long as I can accommodate both my alterego and husband without conflict then I will do so without feelings of terrible guilt. It's not perfect but good enough to be sustainable, for me to live with the limitations it imposes and to do no harm.
Yes I suppose it makes me somewhat of a deceptionist but both parts of my life are valuable to me and if I can have it all. ?...........

[mechamoose]

It's not perfect but good enough to be sustainable, for me to live with the limitations it imposes and to do no harm.
Yes I suppose it makes me somewhat of a deceptionist but both parts of my life are valuable to me and if I can have it all. ?...........

That is kind of my point.

You were not doing it to be deceptive. You have been trying to figure out how to integrate who you are with your living situation.

"Do no harm" is an awesome approach, but when does that interfere with the real world of who you are?

At some point you have to draw a line.

My ex HATED and was *repulsed* because I found guys attractive. She didn't get it, and to this day *won't* get it. It is just too far outside of her world view. She is and has been a homophobe. There is nothing I can do to 'fix' that.

Be responsible, be honest, but be YOU.

<3

- MM