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View Full Version : Gender-neutral books...what about clothes?



Lorna
04-09-2014, 09:19 AM
Two weeks ago I heard an interview with the author Bel Mooney. It was about a decision by Waterstones to abandon their policy of labelling children's books as for "Boys" or "Girls". Mooney put forward very sound reasons why she supported the move, suggesting that many boys enjoyed the stories categorised as for girls and vice-versa. It was pointed out that in earlier times (1950s) Enid Blyton's "Famous Five" books carried no such label and appealed equally to both sexes.

I immediately began to fantasise about how different things would have been if Waterstones' thinking had been applied to clothing. Ideally, for me, this would have happened way back in the 1920s or 30s so that by the time I came on the scene there would have been full acceptance that clothes were clothes and everyone could choose to wear whatever they wanted.

I pictured an end to separate men's and women's clothes shops; an end to separate departments in department stores aimed at men or women; underwear being underwear, regardless of gender, etc, etc. I imagined going into a shop and finding racks of skirts, trousers, dresses, blouses, coats, without any clear expectation that these items were aimed at one gender rather than the other. My imagination went further: how would the differing shapes of men and women be allowed for? Of course, there would be a common sizing system using real measurements (imperial or metric) but those garments where shape differences were significant would be labelled as "Male fit" or "Female fit". Dresses, for example, would be hung on racks with graded sizes and the customer would find his or her size and then, if male, find one with a "Male fit" tag. His female friend could buy the same dress in her size with the "Female fit" tag. I expect this would soon be simplified to a letter F or M following the size.

I then began to think how different life would have been for me and everyone else as children growing up. On some days I would have worn trousers but on other days I might have chosen a skirt and blouse or a dress. The school uniform would still have been there but we boys could without a second thought choose the skirt/dress option or go for the trousers. Of course, it wouldn't end there. We could have a complete choice of hairstyles. We could have shoes with heels - or not. When we wore a dress we could decide whether it needed a slip. If we didn't want the bother of suspenders we could go for knee socks or we could choose to wear nylons under our trousers. My point is that such a transformation in attitudes might have allowed boys/men to be as uninhibited in their choice of apparel as girls and women were becoming - and now are.

I turned my mind to whether there would be any garments that would remain specifically for one gender or the other. Sadly for many here, I conclude that probably only the bra would be in that category on the grounds that it was worn to support and shape female breasts and so men would simply have no need of one - though those men who for whatever reason felt they did need one would not have any concerns about buying one. They would be in the same department as panties, underpants, girdles, suspender belts, slips, pyjamas, nightdresses, etc. Colours and decorations would not be seen as gender related. Men could choose fancy knickers, petticoats with lace, flared or straight skirts, long or short dresses....and the women could choose single- or double-breasted suits, trousers with fly zips, donkey jackets....anything at all. Nobody would think it at all odd if some men turned up at a meeting in a skirt suit while others and some women came in trousers and jacket.

Of course, I began then to think about the many places and situations I've been in over my lifetime and what I would have chosen to wear. I imagined conversations at school or the workplace about clothes. "Too warm for trousers today, Lorna?" "That skirt looks nice and cool for a sunny day." "Are those stockings or tights you're wearing?" "I love those shoes: where did you get them?" My point is that those questions could have passed between boy and girl, man or woman, in either direction. They would all be gender-neutral questions.

Even if the retailing world changes tomorrow to bring about the clothing revolution, it would take many years for attitudes and behaviour to change. Surely, though, if parents can be weaned off the idea of buying girls' books or boys' books they could also be persuaded to see clothes buying in a similar way. To a large extent it has happened for women in my lifetime but sadly I don't think I can live long enough to enjoy the same revolution applying to men.

Anna H
04-09-2014, 09:26 AM
No more girls clothes!?

I Love you Dear sis, but I'm gonna vote no on this one...lol!

(we already have those. That's the Boring fashion line)

heehee! ♥

Zylia
04-09-2014, 09:42 AM
Many cross-dressers don't just wear women's clothing, they (try to) emulate women with wigs, forms, makeup, etc. They wear women's clothing because it's women's clothing, not because they just so happen to like stuff that's only made for women. You know what cross-dressers do if a brand tries to sell a 'male' variant of a generally female clothing style (e.g. skirts and dresses, frilly stuff)? They're not going to wear it.

This is just a (often repeated) pipe dream that has little bearing on the cross-dressing condition and reality in general.

Jaylyn
04-09-2014, 10:00 AM
I say this has its merits but also I could see how this could also kill the clothing industry. It might also kill my desire for a hot young mistress when I was growing up. I mean if every one was dressed the same in a school then have we not just eliminated there desire to be creative with new styles? On football pep rally days it just wouldn't be right for the guys to be wearing dresses. And the cheerleaders at the pep rallies to be wearing jeans instead of those cute little skirts that we football heroes loved to see them do cartwheels in. I love for women to wear sexy skirts and low cut tops not double breasted suits. I know I'll get I trouble for that but that's just who I am. My wife sometimes dresses in her farmers overalls especially when we both head to the farm. I don't particularly find her attractive in that but it serves it's purpose at the farm. I am not out so I kind of live vicariously thru her dressing when we both go out. I encourage her to wear woman specific clothes and if we are dancing she wears her sexy cowboy boots and a short skirt with a low cut top and dark hose. If we both were wearing that who would lead when we danced.... Lol got to admit she does look good wearing her cowboy hat and the taller heels on her boots. My old bronc riding boots though have some very long heels on them. To keep my foot from getting hung in the stirrup. I gotta disagree with gender neutral clothing but agree if only it was gender feminine clothing... Ummm that didn't sound right but maybe made a little sense for us CDs

Lygophilia
04-09-2014, 11:55 AM
I'm probably in the minority for always preferring that. To me, it's complete, a union of the two and felt that the original androgynous\unisex was lost amoung the former, so things went more gradually one dimensional since then.

CynthiaD
04-09-2014, 03:49 PM
We already have gender-neutral clothing. It's called "blue jeans and a tee shirt." Look around!

Katey888
04-09-2014, 04:00 PM
Just a fantasy... thank goodness... :)

Ain't never gonna happen though... And why not...?

Because men run the fashion industry... ;)

(Phew!) :thumbup:

Katey x

Rachael Leigh
04-09-2014, 04:15 PM
The question here if clothes were gender neutral would we want to or need to cross dress. Isn't the thing that attracts us the fact we can look like the opposite gender, I know for me and not sure it would be the same. Also didn't I see a gender neutral society on an episode of Star Trek the next generation

Nadine Spirit
04-09-2014, 04:26 PM
I keep joking with Jules that I would like to have something called "people food." Like dog food. Because I often struggle with choosing what to eat. I kind of want that decision to be off the table. What do I want to eat? Why, people food of course. When I tell this to others, they often comment, 'oh so you could get like garlic human food, or salmon flavored, or cheese tasting,' and I tell them, no. There would only be one type, one flavor, the same thing wherever you go. Everyone would eat it, and it would be the perfect nutritional item. Most people I propose this to say that they would hate it due to the lack of variations available. And that is what I thought about with your gender neutral clothes. Too boring.

mechamoose
04-09-2014, 04:49 PM
You describe a kind of Utopia for me, dear.

I wish clothes were not so "slotted". I just wish I could wear whateverthehellIwanted without being looked at like I was a deviant of some kind.

- MM

Wildaboutheels
04-09-2014, 05:03 PM
I can only speak for Florida. Here we can buy and wear whatever we want regardless of what department in any given store it came from because there are no laws to prevent it. [Like buying a car, it's just another CHOICE.]

Maybe it is different in other states or countries?

And the REASON that women have "all those choices" can be easily found at the checkout of most any grocery store.[in Florida and Massachusetts anyway] My guess is that many CDers are busy trying to bust other Cders so they fail to notice what's on the covers of most of the magazines. [by an extremely lopsided margin]

It's basically Evolution at work and nothing more until such time as men are the ones who become pregnant and women become the sex "controlled" by the way their vision affects them. I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

The REALITY here is that men CAN buy and wear anything they want TODAY.

Beverley Sims
04-10-2014, 01:46 AM
Peoples habits are unlikely to change, if it is marked as a boys dress parents will buy it, if it is a girls shirt little lucy will get to wear it.

Then again what about his clothes for her.

Not much about Her clothes for him yet. :)

If I wear it it has to come from the women's department, no fun otherwise. :)

Kate T
04-10-2014, 06:37 PM
I am just amazed that it has taken until 2014 for a book company to STOP labelling books as "for boys" or "for girls"! Leaving aside the out and out sexism of such an approach what sort of fool company excludes 50% of it's market right off the bat?

sanderlay
04-11-2014, 01:21 PM
Lorna,

I have thought about this idea as well. And I would support gender neutral clothing and things in general. I think we would have a healthier society by not assigning gender to things. Men and women would find it easier to to express themselves with clothing, colors, fabrics, etc...

But how would it affect my GD, gender dysphoria? Personally I think GD, at least for myself, is more about an outlet for self expression, my self identity, and I want to express my masculine and my feminine. If you remove gender from clothing would I find another way? Or would I need to?

With my GD... If I'm free to express myself in any style of clothing that might just be enough. However I suspect I might decide to wear a bra feeling that it would bring me closer to have breasts in my male body, something I currently do. And also delicate jewelry and earrings that women might prefer. This kind of change, in my view, would make it easier to blend but not completely.

Would this work for everyone with GD? I think it would be very helpful but it would not solve our conflict. We would just find another way to express our inner self as it relates to gender.

I think the clothing industry would actually do better. Right now only half of society, females, have larger wardrobes than men. Allow men to expand their choices and you may at least double a males wardrobe choices, colors and fabrics.

Lygophilia
04-11-2014, 06:30 PM
We already have gender-neutral clothing. It's called "blue jeans and a tee shirt." Look around!

There's more to it than that, if kept up with it. Rad Hourani's unisex clothing describes the topic well. However, skirts, heels, and all that were worn in the primitive era by both. The irony from what I recall is that heels use to be first designed\worn by males as a gender specific. Either way, wear what you want.

mechamoose
04-11-2014, 06:36 PM
On football pep rally days it just wouldn't be right for the guys to be wearing dresses. And the cheerleaders at the pep rallies to be wearing jeans instead of those cute little skirts that we football heroes loved to see them do cartwheels in.

If you are Heterosexual, then yes. What you say is true.

The Prancing Elites (http://www.buzzfeed.com/skarlan/this-all-male-cheerleading-team-will-make-you-lose-your-mind)

<3

- MM

Eryn
04-11-2014, 06:57 PM
As soon as you start making sizing differentials for men and women's shapes you will be right back to the start. Certain styles won't sell to men so they won't be produced in male sizes.

Of course, I find it ironic that, as a narrow-hipped maie, I fit a lot of women's clothing that fuller-hipped (normal) women cannot. I've even had GGs lament the same to me in dressing rooms: "You're so lucky to be able to fit into that!" Unfortunately, that "luck" came with a rather severe side effect.

BLUE ORCHID
04-11-2014, 07:52 PM
I would hate to see everyone wearing the same uniform .

Anna H
04-11-2014, 11:31 PM
...hate to see everyone wearing the same uniform .


If they were wearing Olympic skaters dresses, i'd probably be OK with it.

:P

Brenn
04-12-2014, 07:48 AM
We already have gender-neutral clothing. It's called "blue jeans and a tee shirt." Look around!

... but most of us will probably buy the jeans and t-shirt from the women's department.

Eryn
04-13-2014, 02:20 PM
...women's department.

(Eryn looks down at GV blue jeans and gray Kohl's T-shirt with blue and turquoise print she's currently wearing in boy mode)

:lol:

sometimes_miss
04-13-2014, 04:09 PM
I immediately began to fantasise about how different things would have been if Waterstones' thinking had been applied to clothing. Ideally, for me, this would have happened way back in the 1920s or 30s so that by the time I came on the scene there would have been full acceptance that clothes were clothes and everyone could choose to wear whatever they wanted.
What you're forgetting, is that much of what is worn by women is decided on by how it makes her sexually attractive to males. Yeah, yeah, I know all the baloney, women dress for other women, women dress for fashion, etc. etc.. But I still maintain that most of that is BS, women WILL NOT continue to wear stuff if it turns men off unless they're forced to (such as the idiot outfits of so much of the middle east which cover everything but the eyes, and still, if you ask the guys in that culture, you're going to find some that find that a turn on). And once you take that into consideration, there will always be clothing that is seen as feminine, to help attract sexual attention of men, or masculine, which while usually more 'functional', but just the huge number of women who are sexually attracted to men in military uniform speaks for itself.
Yes, there are asexual outfits, such as surgical scrubs, but even those often get the snug fit to show off a girls' curves when they want to look good.