masculinity

[Carlene]

I was wondering if any of you were of the masculine sort at some point during your life. Did you enjoy sports, drink to excess with other young men, fix and build things and so on. It was like that for me. I had always been in awe of women but knew (thought I did) that I wasn't one, so I became an all-man.

The place where I am today came about by an evolution of sorts. Somewhere from within, a female with interests in colour, style; a person who wanted to nurture and lend an empathetic ear, etc., was emerging. (In fact, I like shopping now too. Who would have thought.) I enjoy this person. She is immature and has much to learn about being a woman but I believe that she has great potential.

Enough said for today. So, to all of you who might be having your first coffee of the morning or wondering what to wear to the mall, I wish for you a day of sunshine, inner warmth, and peace.

Carlene.....:hugs:

[kimdl93]

It's a fairly common question. I knew I was different in some way early on, but then doesn't every young person have insecurities? And I tried to emulate what I felt was the traditional male role, including the stupid, self destructive parts that afflict rather than define masculinity. It's not easy to let go of a life of posturing, but there's a reward in letting go of pretenses and just allowing your real self to emerge with authentic male and female aspects intact.

[Michelletg]

I've never seen myself as masculine. I am a sports fan but was never really into playing sports. I was a swimmer and in band in high school and the only reason I swam was to see the girls in bathing suites wishing that I could be one of them. I was never a drinker(still young) I rarely drink. I think the last time I drank anything alcohol was last year.

[Ann Louise]

My old male shell served in the military in 1971, climbed most of the bigger peaks of the Rockies. walls of the NW and Yosemite, and alot of Alaska. Learned how to fly the Alaska bush, hunt deer, moose and caribou , and mine gold in the Arctic. Worked at sea as a commercial fisherman ala "dangerous catch." There's more "guy" stuff that I can't or refuse to talk about that "he" did , some of it marred with shame and remorse. . But I always have been and more so than ever love my feminine heart and mind, and now, body, too. "He" is long gone now but I respect him him as an old, trusted, hard-working and really screwed up friend. I never want to meet him face-to-face again, but I'm proud of the good and courageous things he did, not so much of the other stuff.

There are thousands of other TS like me. Just always lookin' forward now honey, never backward. "He" no longer exists except in my memory, and he's fadin' faster and faster.

Be proud of who you are, were, and will be.

As always IMHO only. Love. ) *( Ann) *(

[Frances]

You are very caught-up on the stereotypical ideas of masculine and feminine. It stood out in your other thread as well, with the "lounging in a nightshirt." Men are empathetic and women build things. Women drink to excess and men nurture. That is not where transsexuality lies or sexual identity. Be careful not to confuse having trouble dealing with environemental pressures connected with expectations of male behaviour and transsexuality. Please consult a gender specialist.

[I Am Paula]

I was pretty feminine most of my life. I had one period of deep, deep denial, when I decided I COULD cut it in a man's world, and I cut my hair, wore itchy plaid shirts, and started sentences with 'fuc*in'. It was a complete disaster. The guys just thought I was a raving queer dressed as a lumberjack.
I do however, still pursue what may be considered masculine things. To me it is just what I am, and what I enjoy. I can build a house with my eyes closed, from pouring a foundation, to nailing on the roof. I do it in my pink work boots, and makeup. Is that masculine?

[Leah Lynn]

I wasn't all that masculine. I had to drive myself to do the things with the boys in the neighborhood as a kid, later went straight into the navy out of high school. I requested to go to 'Nam, then was accepted into a covert unit. I believe I had a death wish. Worked in mining, then trucking. Always trying to put forth the image of macho man. My late wife helped me realize that I didn't need to pretend anymore. I fully intend to spend whatever time I have left to be the real me, and be happy.

Hugs,

Leah

[Carlene]

Hi Frances,

While I may be caught up in stereotypical definitions, for the most part they hold fairly true. Men are traditionally the heavy drinkers who are not very empathetic and nurture not much at all. Yes, there are men who have these values but they are not the norm imho.

Having said that, I appreciate your comments relative to whether or not I am running from rather than running toward........but I sense that it may not matter so much if I am able to find peace.

Thank you for answering

Carlene

[KellyJameson]

I have had a lifelong interest in Archery and target shoot with several woman. We met through Women Bowhunters Association.

I do crossfit and edurance training with a number of woman here locally and many are studying various forms of martial arts.

Even though I don't particulary like firearms I know how to use them and have taken training courses in their proper handling, care and storage.

I probably own fifty skirts but have little interest in shopping and usually prefer jeans and hiking boots. The idea of being dependent on clothing or shopping to justify my gender would be infuriating.

In my opinion it would be a tragedy to go through all the expense and emotional upheavel of transitioning only to impose limits on how a woman can live to be defined as a woman.

It would be going from one prision imposed on you at birth to one self imposed in adulthood.

I think it is very important to not limit what people "can do" or "should do" to be understood as being a man or woman.

This potentially leads to sexism.

I like motorcycles, archery, hiking, sailing, tennis, swimming, remodeling my home within the limits of my knowledge and strength, ect..

Does this make me masculine?

I have watched women drink the men under the table. Watched them in the boxing ring, flying jets and competing against men in many areas and interests.

In my opinion gender is not what you do or don't but who you are.

It is not being passive, prissy or emotional and I cannot think of a woman who would not be highly offended by these attributes being associated only with women.

It has been my experience that men constantly underestimate women as being weaker than them when in my opinion the opposite is true.

[LeaP]

That is not where transsexuality lies or sexual identity.

Well said, Frances. And Kelly, it is definitely who you are.

I found it so hard to get down that essence for so long. That I did so at all wasn't entirely of my own will, either.

I slept for 15 hours last night, something I haven't done for a long, long time. The clarity it yielded is amazing.

[Frances]

Here's the thing (as my friend Kathryn would say): by most people's definition, I am masculine and so is Kelly (certainly by yours, Carlene), but you posted in the trans section. What I am wondering is if you equate being feminine with evidence of being a woman or with evidence of the need to transition? There are masculine women and feminine men. One can transition into a masculine woman, even a butch lesbian woman. I am on the tomboy side in my appearance and have lots of so-called "male" interests.

So, I ask you, Carlene. What is the meaning of femininity and masculinity in regards to transsexuality for you? Since you are posting here and not in the crossdressing section, you must be looking for a particular point of view.

[Carlene]

Kelly, I think you are abolutely right in most of what you say. I too think that you are, as an individual, what you believe yourself to be. However, society at large would not be that open minded, hence the rejection and isolation all too often associated with trans people.

I also think that we own skirts (50 wow) and other articles of women's clothing to assist in the reafirmation of gender identity. There aren't likely to be many transgendered people who would be content to only wear the clothing of their assigned gender at birth but feel alright because they know themslves to be women inside.

I do not mean to argue or take any position of authority. My journey, thus far, has been a struggle, in part because of the losses I will encounter due to gender stereotyping if I decide to move further forward.

If moving further forward is in the cards for me I will not impose limits on myself with respect to how I dress, act, or present myself to others, but I will be aware that there will be many who will successfully do so for me.

As far as having a morning coffee in a night shirt or shopping in the women's section of a mall store being a form of stereotyping, perhaps so .......but I am also denied from doing so for exactly the same reasons.

In closing, I am am doing the best I can and mean no disrespect to anyone.

Carlene

Frances

I post here because I don't see myself as a crossdresser (only). I identify as genderfluid, but without allowing myself to partially transition I am merely a man who wishes he could be more................does that make any sense?

[Frances]

Sorry to be hammering this, but I don't own any skirt (not a single one). I wear jeans and t-shirts almost exclusively. You may find my questioning harsh, but that is exactly the type of inquiry that you sould expect from a gender therapist. So far, all I see in your posts is gender-variance. I am truly trying to help you figure it out.

So, are you a transsexual or are you unconfortable with societal norms regarding clothes and ways to act?

[Carlene]

50 skirts refers to Kelly's post.........I don't own any either.

I truly don't know who/what I am. I believe that the only way to find out might be to go off by myself and allow myself to emerge unfettered by others.

[Kathryn Martin]

In some ways the premises that you make, Carlene, are the worst stereotypes for those that feel they are genderfluid. Because you have interests stereoptypically associated (and quite wrongly I might add) with women does not make you a woman or even mean that there is some woman that wants to come out. This way of approaching what you experience in this way is actually quite bizarre. Because instead of engaging in the development of your interests which are wonderful, to nurture, be empathetic, you create an intellectual and fantasy driven sideshow which in fact distracts completely from those things that could be the basis of a diagnosis of transsexualism.

To be quite honest masculinity and femininity are not expressed in such stereotypes as you have expressed, nor could they ever be. Being interested in art, music and shopping would essentially disqualify 90 % of men in Europe from being a man, and working with hands, cars and heavy equipment would disqualify 90% of women in Russia from being a woman. I don't know where these notions of yours come from but they really are fundamentally intellectual play and lack any substance in reality.

Here is the thing (a nod to Frances) Maybe you need to re-think?

[LeaP]

...I am also denied from doing so for exactly the same reasons.



Denied? Where do you live, in the Middle East or something? Who is keeping you from shopping other than you?

[Frances]

Quite the opposite. It's not by yourself that you will figure it out, but by testing things in a social context*. You don't seem to get the skirt thing. There is no reason you should own any, but you think women own them. I don't, and I am a woman. People change sex because they believe to be the other physical sex and want to make it visible. Gender expression is a whole other ball of wax. Please don't run away to emerge later. I am not saying you are or are not transsexual, I am trying to help you figure it out.

*If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around, it does not make a sound.

[stefan37]

I am me and the interests I have had as male are many of the same interests I have now. I own and operate an electrical, mechanical contracting business. I have lost a ton of strength, but continue to work when needed in the field(tough on the manicure but eh!!). I enjoy sailing and have joined a sailing club. I am very good with tools and have many skills when it comes to repairing and building things. I have offered my services to help the club repair boats. I joined this club as Stephanie and they use female pronouns when addressing me. What they know or what they think I have no idea. But I am no princess and to abandon my skillset and ability to fix things to pretend I am something I am not is not authentic to me.

Transition has allowed me to be authentic and be myself without hiding or denying who I am. It is not all roses and cream, but I am at peace and comfortable. I still have a long ways to travel and at times it is excruciatingly slow. It is about being who you are and projecting that to the world. And I have found at this stage, I get gendered female in my work clothes as much or even more so than when I am wearing a skirt or dress.

[Dawn cd]

As Kathryn said, this "masculine" stuff is mostly stereotype. Plenty of men are gentle, caring, compassionate. They actually read books, appreciate art, go to the ballet. They are not crude and overbearing. If you became a transexual to escape from the masculine stereotype, let me assure you: You can do it as a man, too.

[Carlene]

I had to take a break from this last night. I wasn't expecting from what began as well wishes to all for a joyful day to develop into the feeding frenzy it became.

Frances, thank you for trying to understand.

LeaP, No I don't live in the Middle East..... but yes denied.....perhaps I deny myself some of these pleasures because I have a wife who I love but has stereotypical beliefs regarding men and women. I also have children who see Dad as a provider and protector, not as a woman.

Kathryn, I don't have any idea how to respond to your comments, except to say that, in a community of transgendered people who all long for public acceptance, we are not always good at metting it out for others.

To those who answered the question asked, about whether or not they felt masculine at some point during their lives, thank you all. It was a help to me.

Over a 2+ year period of time I have read a number of posts relative to members feeling like they have been trashed in this forum. By the end of the day yesterday, I understood how they felt. We are all different and no one deserves to be punished for that!!

Carlene

[noeleena]

Hi,

Im going to use the term a masculine female, or as my name 's say noel / noeleena give's a good idear of who i am . im a builder of over 46 years, and when i stop is when i cant drive a nail in straight ill then quit, yea right,....at over 66 i'v got a while yet,

Im a female who has some maleness about her id fit in quite well with our people up near Russia as for looks strength and abilitys , if it needs fixing ill fix it needs building ill build it and if its not getable ill design / make and build it wether steel or timber = lumber .some of us are underestimated in what we can do.

we have been down played for years as being the weaker sex not so for some of us we are hard working ( still am ) and I think if you could meet me youd see why, yes i can get stroppy and throw my weight around sometimes iv had to .

im the Boss,

yet a very loving caring with a tenderness about her. so we dont all come pre packed in a certain way. we can be very different in who we are,

Im in two minds on this how do i show my feminineity, in how i look dought it, or just in being who i am and thats picked up on by my peers and iv been told .

how to embarrias me quick and watch my face go red, is by saying to me how feminine i look when im dressed up nicely for our do's to understand that .i struggle greatly with how i look well dont,

Im well accepted as a woman get on well with others respected in my fields of expertise and have a wonderfull life,

...noelena...

[mechamoose]

Masculinity is a charged word. Everyone has a slightly different image in their head when they hear and use it.

I have mentioned the artofmanliness.com website before, and the discussions they have about character, nurturing, responsibility, and family are all things which would apply to a GG. The articles about how to do meetings, be a driven person in the workplace, 'work a room' etc would also apply.

It isn't a point on a number line. Who we are is a triangle shaped thing.

Biology - Identity - Attraction

They often have *nothing* to do with each other.

<3

- MM

[Frances]

Having gone through the therapy process required to access HRT and SRS, I can assure you, Carlene, that there was absolutely zero trashing in this thread. If you are not ready to have your discourse analysed and have your motives questioned, then you may not be ready for transition.

[Michelle.M]

Did you enjoy sports

Yes, still do.


drink to excess with other young men

Yes, but the men are older now.


fix and build things and so on

I am currently in the middle of building yet another motorcycle, so yes.


In some ways the premises that you make, Carlene, are the worst stereotypes for those that feel they are genderfluid. Because you have interests stereoptypically associated (and quite wrongly I might add) with women does not make you a woman or even mean that there is some woman that wants to come out.

Carlene, as Frances and Kathryn have pointed out these ideas do nothing to establish gender; they only are expressions of how someone feels. These things are not what a woman is, only what a woman (and at times, men as well) might do.


This way of approaching what you experience in this way is actually quite bizarre. Because instead of engaging in the development of your interests which are wonderful, to nurture, be empathetic, you create an intellectual and fantasy driven sideshow which in fact distracts completely from those things that could be the basis of a diagnosis of transsexualism.

Well said. Fixating on these ideas will only distract you from wrestling with real gender issues. If this is how you express yourself as a woman, great! If this is what you do to be a woman, then you’re living in a fantasy world.

[Marleena]

Carlene perhaps if you worded your question differently the results would be different. I did conform to what others expected of me from an early age. I was raised in the sixties when gender expectations were more rigid and stereotypical by today's standards, I think. Parents raised their kids based on their genitalia. I was scolded at an early age for trying on my sister's clothes so I learned to hide things. Some of us knew at an early age we were female while others like me could not figure out what was going on. It was the not fitting in anywhere for me. I remember clearly as a young teenager telling a guy friend how lucky girls were to be girls and his parents overheard that. They told him to get rid of me after breakfast and that really hurt. That reaction from the parents told me to stay in hiding and be more careful. This might sound weird but I even worried I might walk like a girl. Everything seemed like a struggle to hide who I was..

I tried real hard to fit in with the guys and be like them. I'm sure you've read the story of the warrior princess which was a common way of fighting internal struggles. We are going against our true nature and eventually something has to give, usually in the form of GD, suicidal thoughts, depression etc.

[sandra-leigh]

I enjoy doing some wood-work and some metal work, using my hands to build things. I am not good at either. When I took "Industrial Arts" in high school, even the most "don't really give a shit" guys in the class did better than I did. The class was later to go on to unanimously (including the teacher) vote that I should be the class Homecoming Queen nomination; that gives you an idea of how "manly" other people saw me as when I was engaged in the most "manly" thing I did at all.

I spent a long time questioning whether I was a cross-dresser or transgender or transsexual. I keep looking for evidence that would prove it one way or the other. Everything I came up with, I would either found a counter-proof of or would find some balancing evidence for, nothing that would ever prove one way or another. Eventually one day I read a post on this site and said, "That doesn't apply to me, because I am transgender", and at that instant I knew it was true, and I didn't need to ask anymore questions or answer any of the questions I had been building up. The questioning likely helped prepared me mentally to be receptive to being transgender instead of the possibility of feeling it but denying it, but the questioning didn't answer the question: it was pure interior recognition beyond rationality that "answered" the question. These days I find my life proceeding "as if" I am transsexual, but I do wish I had that inner certainty in that regard.

[mechamoose]

When I took "Industrial Arts" in high school, even the most "don't really give a shit" guys in the class did better than I did. The class was later to go on to unanimously (including the teacher) vote that I should be the class Homecoming Queen nomination; that gives you an idea of how "manly" other people saw me as when I was engaged in the most "manly" thing I did at all.

Did that feel good or awkward? I hope it felt good.


Eventually one day I read a post on this site and said, "That doesn't apply to me, because I am transgender", and at that instant I knew it was true, and I didn't need to ask anymore questions or answer any of the questions I had been building up. The questioning likely helped prepared me mentally to be receptive to being transgender instead of the possibility of feeling it but denying it, but the questioning didn't answer the question: it was pure interior recognition beyond rationality that "answered" the question.

Not either-or, but something else. It is hard for a lot of folks to accept that.


These days I find my life proceeding "as if" I am transsexual, but I do wish I had that inner certainty in that regard.

Who else gets to decide who you are other than you?

Getting *approval* is a different question.

<3

- MM