Normal is a Vanishing Point

[LeaP]

Recent threads, correspondence, and conversations have me thinking about identity. Some of the questions that have cropped up recently are:

Am I fooling myself? If so, how can others not see it? What does it mean to be a woman/man? What about stereotypes? And everyone's favorite ... what is the nature of transsexuality? Finally, what's the difference between gender vs trans identity?

But the focus here is normalcy. More and more I see normalcy as the concept that ties these together. It's why discovery crises end, why stereotypes are irrelevant, why successful transitioners wind up leaving trans identity behind, and why there is so little transsexual community.

Most importantly it's why identity seems to recede to a vanishing point. We talk about this in several ways, including acceptance, the calmness and changes in thinking after an extended period on hormones, chasing down rabbit holes in our psyches, reflection, and integration.

They share a common characteristic - that the focus stops being identity per se and turns to living. That suggests a key concept: someone focused on identity is either still fighting themself, or is not transsexual.

The sense of normalcy for anyone who has lived a reactive life, however, is disconcerting. The focus might turn to living, but you don't necessarily know how! The bit about fooling yourself and others comes in here. It's as if the drama and upset never happened. You start to feel like you have always been like you are now ... even though you know you have not. But recalling - feeling - like you used to becomes more and more difficult. How many times have you heard someone long post-OP say that they wonder if they really needed to transition (speaking about how they feel, not what they know), or that they no longer perceive themselves as ever having been any different?

It really is normal to make decisions about your life, even fairly unconscious decisions. But without the driving pressure of a psychological crisis, a therapist's direction, a spouse's priorities, or even our own inner conflicts, it can feel oddly detached. This is one source of renewed wondering. "Maybe this isn't real…"

Strange thought when you think about it. In other contexts, it would not occur to you to question making routine decisions. If you have children, for example, you might question your competence, but you would not question your role in this manner – i.e., whether you are crazy simply because you were taking care of your children. No, this is something that you only do to yourself when you're transsexual, because the nature of suppression is to deny yourself the right to be.

To be normal – for a transsexual – is to not question your identity because you are firmly in the binary. And when that finally sinks in, you will eventually stop thinking about it. Gender identity vanishes with it. Confirmed, but "gone"!

Last thing… I'm finding the circle of trans people with whom I identify drawing smaller and smaller. It could be another vanishing point – or you could be those whom I met in my dreams.

[celeste26]

A very important point. The difference between being and doing. A person can be doing everything they need to do and still not "be."

But is there a point at which we leave behind us everything we went through while we are on the journey that is TS? Can or should we fail to support others on that same journey? I guess its up to each one of us to decide.

[becky77]

I have never questioned my identity, only can I transition and still lead a normal life.
A revelation to myself was that I have never led a normal life. So wrapped up in anxiety, low self esteem, body dysmorphia etc. Also all the secrecy. My sister-in-law said she feels strange that after all these years, she doesn't fully know me. That leads into another area of hiding personality traits, acting manly, for some even pursuing manly work or hobbies all to hide ourselves. That is not normal!
I don't think we can ever lead a truly normal life (if such a thing exists). Even if I managed perfect transition, I could never be a mother to my own children.
I'm still way of being able to give any sound advise, I'm relatively at the beginning.
But what I have learned is that when you let go, let go of what you perceive you should be, accept you are transgender and that there is nothing wrong with that. Embrace being yourself, well I for one felt right.
I'm full of doubt, but not doubt in who I am, only doubt in how I can make this happen successfuly. That doubt is driven by fear, fear of being different and that fear is nearly always far worse than the actuality.

Someone asked me just before I came out to my family, what if you change your mind or transition isn't for you?
My answer is, I am transgendered, always have been always will be. I want my family to know who the real me is. I could no longer go on living the lie, it wasn't a risk to me, the risk was doing nothing.
Normalcy is a myth. Trying to achieve it drives us crazy.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Questioning your identity is traumatic. Lots of "normal" people suffer all kinds of really difficult life situations and trauma, both physical and mental.

However, to question your identity is to doubt that you exist. How fricking more existential can you be?

And what's more, most of us are pretty rational, and on a purely rational basis, even on an intellectual basis where reality can be challenged, we KNOW we exist... except we cannot FEEL we exist... its very frustrating.

And normalcy is kind of a goal for the pretransitioner investing in HER MALE life. We strive to be like all the other guys. But none of us know what that means. It's grasping at air.

When you transition , you suddenly feel that you exist...and when you feel it for the first time, you don't really even know what it is..and its not something I can really put into any more descriptive words...
But to say I feel normal does work as a way to describe it.

I experienced what Lea described. I feel like I have always been "normal"... what a miraculous, adaptive brain!! I feel the same was about my srs...its feels normal..it feels like it was always this way.



also, Becky I think your points are very well taken.
You are smart to focus and separate out the doubt of who you are versus the doubt of whether you can successfully deal with who you are..those are totally different things and truthfully if you have really accepted yourself, I bet you'll find a way..

[LeaP]

I have never questioned my identity, only can I transition and still lead a normal life. ...


Normalcy is a myth. Trying to achieve it drives us crazy.

Do you think doubting your ability to live a normal life reflects at any level on questioning identity?

Also, I don't intend "normalcy" to imply anything about perfection or living an idealized existence. Perfectly normal, everyday, run-of-the-mill cisgender people have problems, doubts, setbacks, etc. They do not, however, question their gender.

[becky77]

Not really, I'm just being realistic. Because of my height some clothes I need to get from a tall range, because of my feet size not all shops currently cater for me, and there will be times when I'm reminded I'm not a gentic female, regardless of how far along the transition path I'm at.
I'm just pointing out that I will always be different, happier but different. The hope is it becomes so regular, its normal to you.
I don't see how this questions my identity, I know who I am.

Normal is just something so regular, people no longer question it. I don't know if its so much normal we strive for, rather just not being abnormal?

[LeaP]

Asking about identity in light of questioning normalcy goes right to the heart of a trans person's concerns in the typical journey. At one extreme, think of those who can't get past thinking they are (or will be) freaks, are mired in negativity, or can't get by others' expectations. At the other end, benign concerns like clothing fit. I suggested, in asking the question, that doubts about one's ability to succeed reflect on lingering identity issues. What you responded with is pretty benign! The kind of doubt I meant, though, was in one's ability to achieve integration and an unremarkable life from a transition perspective.

[kimdl93]

Normal is a pretty elusive state in my experience. I suppose many adolescent, teens and young adults goes through a period of uncertainty about who they are...often reaching the worst possible self assessment. It was worse for me, carrying a certainty that whatever I was, it was wrong. And it took a lot longer and a lot of help before I understood that being different isn't being wrong. It took even longer to feel comfortable with the knowledge that I was and always would be different. If normal exists for me, its not becoming a homogenized version of a Western male. Normal for me is feeling at peace with who I am and how I live my life.

[becky77]

It's an impossible question. If you live in an intolerant place your experience will be different to someone else's. Equally, your ability to lead an unremarkable life, hence normal?? Would differ from person to person. Too many factors involved. We all think different, look different.
Someone 6'6 with strong manly features would find it much harder than a petite feminine looking transexual. Unfortunately physical attributes do count when it comes to fitting in.
Then mental attitude, that same 6'6 person could be very positive and accept their place in life and too them live a normal life.

[Starling]

Well, I'm stuck. I know who I am, dammit, but in light of present circumstances I can't get there from here. Frankly, I don't think there's anything worse. The irony is, I had already told several people close to me that I had begun my transition (counseling, HRT, electro), thus overcoming the first big hurdle. Then I got tripped up by the limitations of my own body. I could see living full-time as a woman without benefit of surgery or hormones--i.e., a purely social transition--but for me, the single most glorious aspect of transition--aside from the fact, itself--was effect of estrogen on my sense of well-being. Without that I really would be a dude in a dress, and I wasn't just looking for a lifestyle.

Years of secret cross-dressing had left me feeling totally anxious and depressed, and I had no interest in going public with that mess. The exhilaration of revealing my true nature to close friends was a brand-new experience for me. Obviously, that kind of high would have gone away amidst the practical concerns of transition, but the grace and calm would endure. I guess this is my roundabout way of recalling what Kaitlyn said a few days ago about fear of transition, and also of reiterating my belief that there is a lot more to worry about from not living as yourself.

I keep an open mind, and if circumstances change, if I become a medical miracle, who knows what might ensue? But I've decided no longer to ask my friends to accept me as a woman until I can put my money where my mouth is.

:) Lallie

PS: I apologize for having gone so far afield here, but it really was the concept of normalcy that set me off. For me, it's a state I will probably never own, but one that I have tasted. And now, I don't know if I am better or worse off for having had my moment of feeling normal. At least it gave me clarity, and I suppose that's a value in itself.

[LeaP]

It's an impossible question.

It may be an impossible question. The most interesting ones usually are.

When these kinds of scenarios come up, there are usually a couple of different lines of response. One approach is social, maintaining that what you face and how you respond determines normalcy. The other is internal, which holds that external response and resistance is immaterial to one's sense of normalcy.

Both are advanced here regularly. The former is often argued by those who have tried to transition more than once (whether or not they eventually succeeded). The latter by those who emphasize being prepared to lose everything ... but generally transitioned in straightforward fashion. (Broad brushes here)

[Leah Lynn]

How does one that is going through transition validate oneself? I cannot simply eliminate the events that I've experienced, as him, and proclaim to be all woman. What I have lived has shaped my psyche. I cannot reach a state of Normal. Even if I could afford all possible surgeries, it would still take magic to change me into a physical reproduction of a decent woman. I do not want to live, carrying a banner proclaiming my transformation. However, I have my hopes; I have my demons. May they temper each other, that I can humbly know Peace.

Leah

[Inna]

I dream the dream from which I awake to, dream the dream from which......

Yep, reality is only as real as someone creating an illusion of reality, because nothing really exists....

Ok maybe too deep, to the kabbalists it isn't, nor to the quantum mechanics but then no one really pays any attention.

Gender is a mask, man or a woman, it is the suit we wear for the job. Wall street, well put on the suit, surgery room, put on the scrubs, woman, put on the stereotypes of society you live in.
But there is a further depth to it as well, the wiring, the internal processing of stimuli, the how we take in the reality at hand.
And this is where for the most TS the discomfort arises, this is where something is out of skew.
Especially it is so confusing because without us living side by side with peers of then an opposite gender, we are unable to communicate what we are feeling, as we are bouncing our feelings of the manly wall.
Once I broke through, and befriended many upon many girlfriends, I can easily confirm that what I felt throughout my life were feelings women feel. But these feelings do make sense to them, but to me back then while trying to be a man, those feelings were a source of confusion and frustration.

Once transitioned it becomes quiet, sort of calmness about self. Now, do not misunderstand my words, it isn't about life solving it self, far from it, but now I do not fell like a foreigner in my own country. Still, emotions galore, and frustrations abound, yet there is that calm about being SELF, being simply ME, nothing less nor nothing more!

[Kathryn Martin]

Normalcy is a myth. Trying to achieve it drives us crazy.

Normalcy is my reality, it is not a myth at all.

[Angela Campbell]

Yeah normal is my reality too. I still have some chores left but I am pretty normal.

[KellyJameson]

I think the mind has a hard time remembering suffering. For me the questioning of " Maybe this is'nt real" is an indication that the person has moved beyond the need to remember the pain.

I can remember how I acted four years ago and one of the words I use to remember is "Frantic" versus the "calmness I'm feeling and living now" but I know my history is slipping into the past.

Thinking about identity helps with with focus in the beginning and metaphorically it is following the bread crumps to escape being lost in the woods but identity is a thinking process, where living is a feeling process.

Normalcy is a very powerful word because it captures the feeling of living without the "sickness of living abnormally"

As a child normalcy is what I had when I had my identity before it was taken from me and I let it go, throwing me into an existentiual crisis of non-normalcy.

This happens many ways. Certainly the violent reaction to puberty and its hormones is one most of us are familiar with but it also happens socially as not living or being seen truly.

Living is a three dimensional experience, not one only of abstract thought.

It has been my experience that very few transsexuals intellectualize transitioning because the compulsion to find "normalcy" leaves little room for the luxury of debate with others.

You may find intellectual validation among others through sharing thoughts but normalcy speaks to the heart where identity lives.

To find and experience normalcy you cannot discuss what identity is. You must live it to feel it.

To talk about identity is to talk in the abstract but to live it is to feel it and that is where you find the "normalcy"

Normalcy is being free of that tension that threatens to and is destroying you.

[bas1985]

there is simply no choice about "what" I am, the role I am playing here, the "mask" as it has been said.

The only choice is to resist and suffer or let go and be normal. Also "resist and suffer" is a valid choice, of course. Ts that delay transition until 50s, 60s are simply trying to resist and suffer. Nothing wrong with them. I think that many people resist and suffer, maybe the majority, they simply resist something else that gender identity.

[becky77]

Normalcy is my reality, it is not a myth at all.

I meant the perceived normality we strive for, scratch any surface and everyone has their own issues and hurdles. I never meant we couldn't be normal, just that there isn't this one template we must fit to feel normal. If that makes any sense.

[gonegirl]

Am I normal? That honestly never crosses my mind any more unless a friend treats me weird or poorly. Even when that happens, it doesn't make me question my normalcy, rather it just makes me sad to think that people who love(ed) me have such a tough time accepting that I am normal. I am having a hard time with that because I love my friends, however, it's looking more and more like many of my pre-transition friendships won't survive. It's ironic and sad that I feel far more comfortable in the company of strangers because they see and experience me as I truly am, just a normal woman.

I will take even the worst day now over having to live a life that is not my own. I think that's a sign of normalcy.

PS. Regarding Kathyn's post below - How I lived before was not really living. Although it appeared that way on the outside, on the inside it was more about survival. Once you are past all that then it is simply gone. Poof is how it happened for me. I can barely remember how it was before.

[Kathryn Martin]

I meant the perceived normality we strive for, scratch any surface and everyone has their own issues and hurdles. I never meant we couldn't be normal, just that there isn't this one template we must fit to feel normal. If that makes any sense.

But this is just a play on words, no? In a sense in what you say you contradict yourself. Normal is all about templates, standards. You know when people get sick and recover they might say "I am glad it is over, I feel like a normal human being again." In the context of transsexualism it means you fixed whatever defect you had and then poof it's all gone and behind you. It astounds me that no one seemed to pick up on the significance of Lea central sentence:


...that the focus stops being identity per se and turns to living. That suggests a key concept: someone focused on identity is either still fighting themself, or is not transsexual.This is a very bright mirror to look into, and I would venture to say that if you don't then you will never achieve normalcy post transition. To me saying I am transgender and will forever stay that way is like saying I am the common cold that has befallen me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I have experienced what you are talking about.. it stops being about identity and turns to living. This is a hard pill sometimes.
I have no doubt many people that will not thrive as women consider transition and some follow through.. these folk may or may not be transsexual
The non transsexuals will perpetually consider transition and hopefully for them not drive themselves nuts doing it.

Transsexual as a word is normally broadly defined. I don't get to pick what it means to another person

You often say I am a woman with a past.. to me this is no different than saying I am transsexual. You can parse the words all you want.. the idea that your past included different body parts and a different social upbringing than a non transsexual cannot be ignored as a "concept".. there is a word for this.... its transsexual.

I personally look at it that I can say I am a woman and I am a transsexual in the same sentence without any feeling that its incorrect or misleading.

I am a woman and I am a transsexual
I am a woman and I am a woman with a past.
I am a woman and I had a penis and was gendered as male because of it.

It's all the same thing to the average person.

[becky77]

Kathryn, if you no longer consider yourself transexual, why are you here?
By your reasoning, you are no longer unwell, yet continue to visit the doctors.

Transitioning doesn't wipe away your past. And that past had shaped me for good or bad.
I'm still in the turmoil of transition, it will be some time before my life settles down to feel normal.
Still loads to accomplish, but I'm calmer and far more optimistic because I know I'm me now. But knowing your own identity and letting others see that identity are two different issues.

[Kathryn Martin]

Transsexual as a word is normally broadly defined. I don't get to pick what it means to another person

You often say I am a woman with a past.. to me this is no different than saying I am transsexual.

Just a quick note about this, I am a woman with a medical history of transsexualism which is slightly different. Since my transsexualism has been overcome it is simply a medical history that I had. No more but certainly also no less. While we don't get to pick what transsexualism is, it's meaning clinically is well and quite narrowly defined. The broad use is more a result of the medical justification issue raised by gender variant persons in an attempt to gain broader acceptance for their condition, but that still does not make make it the same.

Becky,
the only reason I am here is because there are a small number of people that I would like to help mainly because I have walked the walk and not only talked the talk. I do the same for some young women where I live. The experience of those have walked the walk can be of valuable assistance as I can attest to when I went through transition. You can reject what I have to say like many here do, because I tend to hold a mirror up to people and that is not always received well but always intended to be supportive.

How do you know what is or is not wiped out by transitioning? Or more poignantly what will come to you as a result of of transitioning? When Kaitelyn, Frances, Misty, Angela etc. and I talk about our experiences then we don't speculate but rather we know what we say.

So more correctly, I am no longer visiting the doctors, I visit the sick that are similarly afflicted as I was. I share my experiences and encourage them to reflect and question so they may have the same success that I am now enjoying.

[LeaP]

I think she's visiting the patients in the asylum, not the staff.

It is true that your past is never wiped out. If I were talking about identity and normalcy as an intellectual exercise then any point of view might be equally useful, even formulations that seem mutually exclusive, as in I'm 100% man and also 100% woman.

But I'm not talking about perspective or a point of view. I intend "normal" in the sense of how I now experience myself, not how I think about what has happened to me and what may come. And with it went the identity quest and the concern over it, and the (formerly) neverending attempt to find it, understand it, define it, and (importantly) control it. Turns out that it was always there - except that it is not an "it" at all. It's just me, and it seems gender is inseparable and incomprehensible in the end.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If I can boil it down for you Lea then your expectations of transition should include feeling totally and completely normal.

That's how I feel. That's how every successful transitioner that I know feels... almost as if you think gender? whats the big deal?

[LeaP]

If I can boil it down for you Lea ...

What a chef!

Question - WHEN did you find (or start feeling) it was no big deal?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

hmmm...
I don't really remember except to say that it was incremental and it was after I started living full time.

It all seems like a blur

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There are some who say they are too intimidated to post here and others who describe that as shameful, but I cannot agree.

I actually can relate to that timidity..i took a long time before I was comfortable posting here...
but I didn't blame anybody else...

Shameful? No way.. I will tell you what's shameful.

People that pour their heart out month after month getting told they are doing something wrong because somebody can't find the courage to post....or because somebody is so desperate for somebody else to tell them they are transsexual but fear a different answer..

In this world one of the thing that bothers me the most is people that don't take responsibility for their own selves. its always somebody else's fault...

[Jonianne]

......or you could be those whom I met in my dreams.

“I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” ― Bob Dylan, 1962

Lea, I love your mind, but some times I think you are way over thinking things, which is normal. I certainly did before I made that "final" decision to transition. I can't say how my mind changed 180 degrees overnight, but when it happened I knew I was going to live the rest of my life as female. Prior to that moment, I always thought I could never live daily fulltime, but when it happened, I just knew I could. Actually I can't imagine going back. There is nothing to go back to.

It's obvious you are in deep struggle about it and I don't know how to fix that, other than to say that it's OK to keep struggling and it's OK to never transition. But, if and when you do, I believe you will know that you need to with all your heart and you will have a peace about it. It will still be hard to tell others who are close to you, but as you tell them, it gets easier. And then the time comes after you transition fulltime, that it turns out to be "no big deal". After I got my drivers licence, when I was 16, I kept waiting for the drama of having my licence and driving to hit me. It never did. It just became "no big deal".

I just want to encourage you that you are exactly where you need to be right now and when the time comes, if it does (and that's not to say that I doubt you, at all), you will know it with all your heart. And then you will be ready to move on with your life.

[LeaP]

Joni, thank you – really – but in this case the concern is entirely misplaced. I am neither overthinking nor struggling. Quite the opposite! The struggle is long over. I made the decision that I would transition some time ago. The thoughts that I have expressed are largely a recap of advice that I recently gave to someone else. But since they tied so many recent thread topics together, I thought I would toss them out here.

Some of the ideas are familiar and common. If there is anything novel here, it is bringing together the ideas of an increasing knowledge of normalcy and synchronously receding sense of separate gender identity, then using that to make an inference into the meaning of transsexuality. A bright mirror, as Kathryn put it.

I have arrived at an apprehension of the peace about which you speak. That is, I may not live it yet in every respect, but its effect on me is already profound. There is not only no struggle or identity crisis, but identity itself has (in my own phrasing) receded to the vanishing point. All that is left is work to do. Normal, whether positive in it's implications or not.

There is a corollary, which I have not mentioned. And that is that normalcy is founded upon doing things that are right and real. All I need do to bring on the storms is to stop or divert. This gives me an entirely different view as to what it means to be compelled to transition. To not stay the course is to revert to what I have lived. There is no peace there…

The reference to dreams doesn't mean what you think ... but I think I prefer not to explain it.

[Kathryn Martin]

All that is left is work to do. Normal, whether positive in it's implications or not.

There is a corollary, which I have not mentioned. And that is that normalcy is founded upon doing things that are right and real. All I need do to bring on the storms is to stop or divert. This gives me an entirely different view as to what it means to be compelled to transition. To not stay the course is to revert to what I have lived. There is no peace there…

I love what you said there Lea. When all deliberation comes to an end and you are who you are what is left is work to do. Remember the gates we talked about a year ago and when they fall open? Then there is nothing left but to walk, with purpose.

[LeaP]

In this world one of the thing that bothers me the most is people that don't take responsibility for their own selves. its always somebody else's fault...

I agree, and this actually relates to the topic, some of Becky's responses, and my comment on control. I felt intimidated before posting in the TS forum also. I admitted it in my first post! I was also royally PO'd for a long time at you (Kaitlyn) for a comment I attributed to you that you did not actually make! (To everyone else ... we've discussed this.) All of this is symptomatic of wanting to have things the way I would have them. Control. My message. Stroke my needs (fear). My reactions, justified, and, mind you, I'm not talking about simple disagreement here, but the substance of responses.

Is that normal or pathological? Substitute dysfunctional for pathological if you like.

What IS normal? ... to take things as they come, and maintain your equilibrium. If you want to do those too intimidated to post here a favor, tell them to feel the fear and do it anyway. OMG is this place a cakewalk compared to what's going down elsewhere.

I want to go back to my comment about doing what is real and right. How do you know what that is? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. But I can tell you this: somewhere along the path, as sinking identity passed rising normalcy, I stopped thinking about it! More accurately, I stopped obsessing over it and simply started dealing. My posts here are now mostly focused on conceptual and philosophical topics, like this one, or oriented around practical advice. No more weeping psycho self-analysis. (I save that for my friends… lucky you) I care very little what others think of my decisions and path. In fact, I know that some question some of the steps I've taken. How? LOL!! Because they told me …

This is normal – to be open, vulnerable, and strong at the same time. Two years ago – never. Now – most of the time. Normal. Even when life sucks.

[Starling]

I love it in here, and I consider it an obligation to add whatever I can to the general conversation, even when I make a fool of myself by punching above my weight. But I know that every experience can have meaning and value, and even when I'm at my lowest point, there may be something about what I share that could help someone else in a similar situation. I have gained immensely by being part of this "community," and would probably be worse off in every way if I'd never had the courage to sign up, and then speak up. This is where I can come to feel normal, even as my real life falls terribly short. It's another sort of normal from that which is under discussion in this thread, but it's a huge consolation.

:) Lallie

[becky77]

or because somebody is so desperate for somebody else to tell them they are transsexual but fear a different answer..

In this world one of the thing that bothers me the most is people that don't take responsibility for their own selves. its always somebody else's fault...

I don't think its something you can be told? You know from day one. The rest is finding the courage to be true to yourself.
I met two TS that made me feel worse of, both lived full time but they would have me believe the world was against them. I decided I was better of on my own, the only person against you is yourself. Your just a stranger to everyone else, they have no interest to be against you.
How you proceed in any walk of life will differ if you concentrate on negatives over positives and visa versa.

Since being on hormones a certain part hasn't bothered me for a couple of months now, no more horrid sensation in the morning. I'm very content about that, the sooner it disappears the better. Someone else who was fulltime for years still struggled with the fact that her parts didn't work so well now. I don't get that myself, but does it make me right and her wrong?
I only know what's right for me.

This does raise a question I wonder at though.
Im the kind of person that once settled will just live my life normally, as a woman (in whatever context that is lol). I have never been into the scene, always felt I don't belong.
However, do I owe it to others to support and champion transexuals?
How do you balance the two, does not one effect the other? Probably the route of my confusion.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Right Becky. You are not carrying water for people that don't post (for whatever reason)

Some people come here to be transsexual. They have an idealized view of transition because its something they want to do.
Sorry, but that can bother people that are making permanent life changes, many against very long odds.
This is especially true when advice gets bandied about...and its far from shameful, in fact its appropriate and right to put experience up against somebody's idea of what it should be like

The idea that the world is against you is just a fact, its not a question of negativity, its a question of being prepared for having experiences similar to what many transsexuals have experienced.
It's not about telling a person what to do. It's about sharing experience to hopefully prepare someone to best get through a very difficult time.

So I am saying to you Becky that concentrating on "positives" and "negatives" is not a mature and constructive way to approach things. Trying to do it alone is a big mistake.
You actually should understand and concentrate on every possible negative. You should mentally, physically and emotionally prepare yourself for every possible outcome. You should try to find pockets of experience and support wherever you can.
One of the biggest things you should be ready for is people NOT supporting you. This can be active in the case of people that disown you or usually its passive as people will drift out of your life..

I met a lot of people that made me feel worse, I met a lot of people that were a total and absolute mess...and I said no way, not me. I agree with you on that one. But I learned a lot from them, and if I could help them I would.


I don't believe I owe other transsexuals anything more than I owe somebody else. But I have a lot of information that I share. That information empowers me to help other people, and so I choose to try to help. I know a lot about finance as well, and I post on some financial message boards where people trade advice and thoughts (and bicker and bicker!!! and surely there are people afraid to post there too, but they don't send PM"s to people whining about it) that hopefully people find helpful.


+++

and finally Becky I think your last question is right on point of the topic... I don't have to balance anything! I feel normal. I do what I want, and I feel like myself doing it. I do not separate actions here from other "non ts" actions... this distinction no longer exists (this is kind of Kathryn's point). I also give speeches at colleges and some churches about my transition. None of this makes me feel any more or less transsexual, or more or less a woman.... I just feel like I feel, it is not an "issue" in my inner life..

the only time its an issue is when its a practical reality. An old lien under my old name that must be cleared up for example...it especially comes up taking care of my kids who want me to be dad(which i'm happy to do)

[becky77]

I was talking specifically about the two people I thought I had befriended. My point being they failed to see when there was positives. So I distanced myself and I'm better off for it.
I'm well aware of the negatives, fully prepared for the hardships, I expect things to be hard, but when they go well I hold onto it. Who in their right mind does this without knowing what it entails.
When I told my family I expected the worse, but its been an amazing experience I want to share that.
I'm doing it alone as so far I haven't met anyone mentally stable enough, to be considered helpful.
Three months ago I was in a real vulnerable place, I ended up pandering to insecurities of a so called fulltimer, too self obsessed to give me any support whatsoever. I have discovered the same thing with three different fulltime transexuals/women. I hoped for some guidance, since then I have just concentrated on living. Its going well for me, isn't that a good thing?
Must my spirit be beaten down.

[arbon]

I want to say boring, but it is not the best word I am sure. But its like pre transition there was always this inner conflict going on and having all that depression and anxiety to fight with. Then going through transition all the fear and stress of coming out, getting hrt, hair removal, legal issues, everything that I was so driven to push through. Today though that stuff is mostly gone, the gender conflict or being transsexual is not the dominant / primary thing going on with or that there is about me. It more just getting used to feeling alright for a change. Its new. Its not boring but very different then living with all that inner conflict and all that came with it. Then the question for me becomes now what? I am free of all that so what do I do?

[Pink Person]

Most trans people are normal trans people. There is no other kind of normalcy that is open to us. If there were more cismen and ciswomen who actively participated on this site then they would disabuse us of our notions of being normal in any other way.

The only question you need to ask and answer for yourself is how do you want to be trans in your personal and particular way? Once you have settled on the answer then you can forget about the struggle that led you to it. It might be gracious of you to observe that your answer and similar answers by other people who are more like you don’t carry any more authentic weight than the ones that trans people who are more different from you apply to themselves.

You can divorce yourself from the idea of being trans, but you can only do it by divorcing yourself from the truth.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Do we have to look at normal as being do we all fit in to socity in a way and there are no differences say for men most do normal things like sport, work if theres family take thier kids to sports and dad teaches the boys how to be like dad a caring loving father, and keeps Mum happy.

or a woman who is a mom looks after thier kids and loves doing what it takes to keep the household together and dad happy. and teach's the girls to be like Mom role models if you like,

yet allows for differences along the way. or even role changes .

are we all normal lets face it.....no , im certinaly not and dont wont or need to be, i dont fit your role model because i embrace both roles allways have done apart from i did not know any different and i still do.

Class me as you like a non conformist. male female what ever, it does not matter. yet i do conform in many ways that are quite lovely, and with this is it about fitting in being a part of joining in with others again male or female, .

So really is it about being normal after all or is it more than that, i belive it is, its really about being accepted for you , you are not a preconceved idear of you must be this way or your out,

I dont know how you fit in or are part of any number of groups as i am yet im accepted as not being normal and different, what others see in myself and who i am they well over 1000 members with in our groups accept who i am why would they put me on commitees and in charge of different aspects of our groups, .

you know i think the real lack is not allowing others into your lives if not why not ???.....

Okay im female so.... intersex yes so...... thats not what im about thats my state after that who gives a dam.

so your a dresser or yea lables trans ,,,,, come on so.....is that all this is about no.. unless you make it so. stop calling your self by these names and just be who you are, are you a male then go for it. are you a woman same again go for it, im accepted as normal just a female who is a woman,,,, big deal. oh did i say im weird oh yes that too.

Yet you know i have such a lovely neat life, and please understand this .....WITH....MY....FRIENDS......who have made me ...THIER.... friend.

...noeleena...

[Aprilrain]

Kathryn, if you no longer consider yourself transexual, why are you here?
By your reasoning, you are no longer unwell, yet continue to visit the doctors.

Becky, this place is anything but the doctors office!! This place is what it is, an Internet message board. Most of wht is shared here is opinion. I come here because it's fun and I get to meet some interesting people.

[becky77]

Yeah I know. I was just playing with her analogy. No harm meant.

[LeaP]

Most trans people are normal trans people. There is no other kind of normalcy that is open to us. If there were more cismen and ciswomen who actively participated on this site then they would disabuse us of our notions of being normal in any other way.

There appears to have been a threadsurrection ...

There is a natural "trans" normalcy in play here - but that's not my topic. Where you take the normalcy of the trans condition (I prefer "predictable variation" over normal for this usage) and accept it as permanent, I take it as, well, transitory, and focused my OP on the apprehension of binary gender.That I AM forever trans in some ways is a given, of course. And it is not only gracious to extend the courtesy of accepting differing answers, it is accepting the obvious because of variations in trans identities and conditions.

We part, however, at binary gender identity, by whatever name you care to use, trans or otherwise. Under this condition and this condition only, the normalcy of one's inborn gender can transcend any of the various trans identities and become unremarkable as such. THIS was my topic - the normalcy of the binary, the means by which it is apprehended, and it's implications.

Your point on cis men and women is mooted by my perspective, as I believe my outlook is becoming effectively identical.

[Pink Person]

Lea, I’m not sure I understand your point of view, but it interests me.

If you believe that the gender binary consists of two essentially homogenous groups of people that include some people who have somehow transitioned or made quantum leaps from one group to the other then I don’t agree.

I believe that there are two gender classes, but each class is composed of significantly different types of members who have different grades of characteristics. It’s possible to find comfort in the class identity you share with everyone else in your class but this common bond isn’t a sufficient indicator of the actual diversity of gender characteristics that occur in any human population.

If it makes you feel better then close your eyes to subordinate gender diversity in the binary groups. However, if you happen to open your eyes to it then you will notice it isn’t invisible. It also shouldn't trouble you much.

[LeaP]

"Classes" is a useful term here so I'll expand along those lines.

I think there are three broadly useful classes to consider in context: Two binary gender classes and one gender variant class. None are homogenous. GV people identify in a variety of ways, including non-gendered. No need to explicate here, I think. And all but the most strident (or perhaps insecure) people in the binary classes will acknowledge characteristics in themselves, or with which they resonate, and with which they associate with the other gender. Nonetheless, they affirm they are men or are women.

So, while how gender is experienced is not homogenous in the so-called binaries, identity itself is a clear differentiator and in a particular way. Not because identity is fixed - as it may be also for gender variant people - but because it is normal in the population sense. (Again, biological variation and "normalcy" is a different topic.) Someone whose identity itself IS male or IS female has the potential to reach the same level of psychological gender normalcy as a cisgendered person, once transition difficulties have been worked out to the point of real integration.

The potential is realized and regularly reported by by people post-transition. Not all, of course, and that's a ripe topic in itself. But the unremarkable normalcy and integration surely explains phenomena like the lack of a substantive post-transition community better than conspiracy theories about stealth and deception. Or the quieting of GD as something better than permanent acquiescence to an abnormality.

The reported reality is more prosaic. Binary gender normalcy is not only the antithesis of denying trans identity, but "boring" as Kaitlyn revealingly described it. Getting there isn't a quantum leap. It is a matter of treating the condition, one symptom of which may be trans identity itself.

[vikki2020]

I'm going to guess that we are all mostly normal---but, now, we need a new normal. Or, does normal change for most people? Everyone evolves,to an extant. Say you have a job for 20 years, and every day is normal, then, you find yourself in a new work place. You need to search for a new normal there, and it finds you, after a while. Maybe the same applies for transitioning. It finds you, if you let it. "Normal" is being comfortable in your environment. Life exists at the bottom of the ocean, breaking all of the "normal" rules----don't tell them they ain't normal! Love this thread.

[Xrys]

One interesting thing i have found while reading this thread is how one single word can be used in so many different ways. What kind of normal are we talking about, and are we all even talking about the same kind of normal?

I once read that there three parts of our identity. What we are, what we think we are, and what others think we are. With that in mind, i think our sence of feeling normal come largely from the differences between those three parts.

I see transition as the process of bringing all three parts into harmony. The self discovery, introspection, self acceptance are all part of bringing the first two parts together. Then coming out, physical changes, passing, and the like are bringing the last part together.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree, we can have variations on that definition..

to me normal basically means "common" and so in this simple way, we will never be normal... one big impact of this is that nobody understands us... they literally cannot comprehend us, and so they judge us....
we are very rare...can't change that.

We have a number of choices as transsexual women and its interesting because I would guess that the way you feel about the idea of "normal" will influence you in many ways and especially in how you handle being transsexual..

you may find it hugely important for the world to view you as normal.. you may find it totally unimportant or you may be fiercely proud of not being normal..
or you may be inner focused and have a zen like focus on your inner self...

all these things impact the way you live your transsexuality.... I must say that I was very focused on being just like everybody else..perhaps I longed for that feeling because I knew in my heart how different I was...I didn't "feel" normal.. but to all outer appearances I could not have been more normal... and I didn't think about feeling "not normal" very much...I lived through my outer self...

over the years I suffered my normalness, but that just made me try even harder to be normal...I lived two lives... a normal and not normal life... its funny you can't really lie to yourself very well no matter how you try... so saying "im ok" in my mind worked moment to moment but over time it was a very destructive way to live... that's not normal.... I believe Lea this is what you might consider the condition to be.. it's not a good thing...its the gender dysphoria...it was this (unnamed at the time) feeling that drove me literally crazy and I became obsessed with FFS and then slowly realized that I had to transition or else...the inner feeling is what got me!!

But when I transitioned I was very focused on the outer appearance... I craved to be "normal" on the outside. I delayed and made excuses about transition but it was all about the idea that I couldn't pass or I was too tall or I have a big scar on my eye....I could never be normal on the outside...but I had to transition and so I proceeded

Sometimes I was so focused on the outside people were critical of me but I didn't care..i drove people nuts talking about it and changing my mind over and over..

I finally got ffs..I got an eyelift...etc etc..I lost weight and got myself to a point where I passed with no effort. I appeared normal.
Even my srs was outward focused in a way... My deep feeling was about being stripped somehow and not having to worry about my body parts... that was a literal thought in my head...by ALL outward appearances I became normal..even naked!!!

what I didn't understand prior to transition was the idea that I would become normal on the inside too....
just like on the outside I look no different than any other woman, on the inside I also feel no different than any other woman(or at least I think LOL!!)

I didn't really expect that feeling. Over the years i kind of lost touch with the idea of how wonderful it would be live without the "Condition"
the condition totally and completely went away....its an amazing change

It's not perfect... damage was done...I have residual feelings of shame that still hold me back sometimes... I have learning to do about how to treat my inner self better(that's actually pretty normal i bet)
but that's on me... that's something the normal me can work on hopefully...

I am sure that some out there will have experienced it the same way...the rest will be totally different and a big part of that is what you think normal means to you.
This is especially true if you feel being normal is an anathema to you. (lots of people I bet!)

[LeaP]

... What kind of normal are we talking about...

Psychological normalcy from a binary gender perspective.

A dictionary definition:


Psychology.
a. approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
b. free from any mental disorder; sane.

Using some of the trait descriptors sprinkled throughout the thread, this includes not thinking it unusual to take care of yourself, taking gender as a given instead of an extraordinary focus, experiencing gender as opposed to searching for it and - perversely - being unable to define or locate it, to live one life instead of two.


...

over the years I suffered my normalness, but that just made me try even harder to be normal...I lived two lives... a normal and not normal life... its funny you can't really lie to yourself very well no matter how you try... so saying "im ok" in my mind worked moment to moment but over time it was a very destructive way to live... that's not normal.... I believe Lea this is what you might consider the condition to be.. it's not a good thing...its the gender dysphoria...it was this (unnamed at the time) feeling that drove me literally crazy ...the inner feeling is what got me!!

But when I transitioned I was very focused on the outer appearance...

what I didn't understand prior to transition was the idea that I would become normal on the inside too....
just like on the outside I look no different than any other woman, on the inside I also feel no different than any other woman(or at least I think LOL!!)

I didn't really expect that feeling. ...

It's not perfect... damage was done...

I am sure that some out there will have experienced it the same way...the rest will be totally different and a big part of that is what you think normal means to you.
This is especially true if you feel being normal is an anathema to you. (lots of people I bet!)

Generalizing psychological and emotional conflicts over normalcy as one way of viewing the condition makes a lot of sense in context, as I've conceptualized reaching gender normalcy as a prospect. (I.e., because I'm already seeing aspects of it materialize.)

Like you, I did not expect this. Were I to articulate my former expectation, it would have been lessened conflict, a better accommodation. A truce, even. NOT unremarkable normalcy, the sense of confident obviousness replacing fearful projection. There are consequences to change and action, of course, but again, these are taking on an aspect of work to do as opposed to unpassable mountains. Damage, too, to your point. But that doesn't invalidate normalcy, just as tragedy in anyone's life need not destroy it. The best case is that such things deepen and enrich perspective and empathy.

That some will have (or want) a different experience is a given, which is why I describe this as potential. I will say this - I tried for DECADES to make a virtue out of my issues. That introversion was focus, aggression was realism, tactlessness was honesty, etc. That wandering in the gender wilderness made me more empathetic. (Comical, considering the preceding list.). Every bit of it was trying to reach comfortable accommodation with things that were wrong with me, that were coming from internal conflict.

[stefan37]

you will know normalcy when you experience it,.

[Pink Person]

I think Xrys has given us a good summary of the sources of identity issues.

I don’t think that significant gender variation affects enough people to merit its own gender classification. It’s fair to speak of gender being binary because for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people it is binary. For a very small minority of people gender is in a sense binomial, or a soft binary. These gender variant people merit sub-classification or types, not any higher order of description.

I think it’s possible to transition from being one transmasculine type of person to another, from being a transmasculine type to being a transfeminine type, and from being one transfeminine type to another, and in each case vice versa. However, the path of transformation always begins and ends in transgender identification by any reasonable measure of meaning.

Peace of mind is important. Looking for it makes us prone to embracing pipe dreams. Transgender people have predictable kinds of pipe dreams. They often involve magical transformations. I’m tempted to snicker when I hear some of them but usually they make me want to cry.

[LeaP]

... However, the path of transformation always begins and ends in transgender identification by any reasonable measure of meaning.

...Transgender people have predictable kinds of pipe dreams. They often involve magical transformations. ...

Regarding the first cite, my experience contradicts this. As with so many other things that have happened, this was unexpected. My thinking on this was identical to yours, that it was inconceivable to NOT have a trans identity. It is conceivable and apparently for others as well, the reality.

I hear things that stretch my credibility, too. Sometimes it's hard to find the line that separates truth from projection. I once disbelieved many things that I now know to be true. I wish I could say that I arrived at that point through some combination of external evidence and empathy, but not so.

I'm gaining a new appreciation of the post-ops's plight ... the utter lack of credibility with those who solicit their views and advice.

[Jorja]

I think that one needs to remember, one persons dream is anothers reality. So the things you hear or read may not quite align with your manner of thinking or personal belief. It may very well fit someone else to a tee. Remember, there are no rules nor a right way and a wrong way to go about transition. It is what fits your situation best that matters.

[Inna]

Most trans people are normal trans people. There is no other kind of normalcy that is open to us. If there were more cismen and ciswomen who actively participated on this site then they would disabuse us of our notions of being normal in any other way.

The only question you need to ask and answer for yourself is how do you want to be trans in your personal and particular way? Once you have settled on the answer then you can forget about the struggle that led you to it. It might be gracious of you to observe that your answer and similar answers by other people who are more like you don’t carry any more authentic weight than the ones that trans people who are more different from you apply to themselves.

You can divorce yourself from the idea of being trans, but you can only do it by divorcing yourself from the truth.

TRUE, if you are locked into your own reality restricted by thoughts of unatainable dream!
However, you can not phantom what reality is for those who had gone further into the realm of Normal!!!
Just as anyone who had surpassed the platoeau of transness should not deminish those who are still dwelling within confine of trans reality, same should be respected by those whose sight is obscured by the conditions of their own limitations!


PS:
Normal is however a limitation of its own definition, a boundary perceived to be the norm. Without not-normal, the progress of humanity such as cognitive evolution and abstract thought would not be possible. Entire evolution is built upon ubnormality within DNA replication, without it, non of what we perceive as normal would had been possible, NON!

[becky77]

Hi Lea, Pink person.
I ask this as I just don't know, how far along the scale of transition are you? Some of this sounds like very clever theory and I wondered how it compares to your own personal experience?

[LeaP]

I consider it still early. Things difficult at home. Discussions at work. 50+ hours electrolysis. 100 pounds lighter. 21 months on HRT.

[KellyJameson]

"However, the path of transformation always begins and ends in transgender identification by any reasonable measure of meaning."

This thinking would be very dangerous to the transsexual in my opinion

When transitioning is about identity, and I say this because there are other reasons I have seen for transitioning that seem to have nothing to do with identity, than it is vital to let go of the transgender identity.

A transgender identity is not a female identity and when transitioning is done because you have a female identity than this identity has been with you since very early in life.

A persons gender identity is subconscious because it is created in the first years of life and usually based on observable differences between girls and boys that the child notices, making clear to them "who they are as what they are"

Transgendered children for reasons that are still partially unclear do not or cannot adopt the identity that corresponds to their external biology.

My own personal opinion based on my experience is it is part biological and part early childhood experiences that come together to create the perfect storm, resulting in the child having the firm conviction that they are the opposite gender than the one they have been labelled with.

This identity is written on a blank slate and how deeply it is etched onto this slate will decide whether it can be unwritten or written over with another identity.

Some children can experience a certain measure of gender fluidity while for others once fixed it is permanent.

Depending on how accepting the childs environment is of their gender non-conformity the child may repress their actual gender identity by pushing it down into their subconscious, much how a child would push down the memory of trauma.

This requires massive psychological resources to be used in keeping it below awareness, but always there are cracks where the identity will leak out and you will witness a person with an unstable identity sometimes showing aspects of Borderline Personality Disorder which is a mental illness related to identity.

With BDP the person loses their identity when the person they live through threatens to abandon them, where with the transsexual all of life is a threat to their identity so each has completely different triggers.

It is really easy for gender dysphoria to look like a mental illness because mental illness often travels with damage to ones identity but gender dysphoria is not caused by trauma but by circumstances that than result in trauma to identity.

For years I was sure that I must be crazy because I could not stop believing that I was a woman when all evidence indicated that I was not.

I was a woman who did not want to be a woman because I was "a man".

This created a constant never ending struggle inside my own head to kill this female identity that would not go away no matter what I did.

I absolutely could not control it because sooner or later I would simply become exhausted and "she" would take over.

It is like being possessed and you see it as foreign and unnatural. You live with a split identity.

Unless you have actually lived this nightmare it is impossible to describe how it destroys your life. You are literally being pulled in opposite directions with two people inside you trying to both have their identities.

Each identity is trying to kill off the other because only one can live. It is not possible to merge these two identities into one cohesive identity because they are opposites like oil and water that MUST be physically manifested to be experienced.

At its heart gender is a three dimensional experience that is understood abstractly.

I was always fearful of movies like "Three Faces of Eve" because it seemed similar to what I was experiencing but without the black outs.

To fully go into your identity you must give up the "crutch" of a transgender identity which is an identity that will keep you locked out of your actual identity leaving you not experiencing the feeling of "reality" as your identity.

There cannot be any doubt about your identity or you will not be able to live it fully.

A transgender identity will stay in your conscious but true gender identity lives in the subconscious beyond "concern of gender" so gender is taken for granted

You must end up in that place where your gender identity is beyond question and feels completely normal.

You must end up experiencing your gender just as everyone else does.

It is such a part of themselves that it seems laughable and ridiculous to even question it.

Instead of you feeling crazy about your gender, others seem crazy when they question it. This is how most people would react if their gender was questioned because it is an unquestionable part of who they are.

A transgender identity will never give you this.

At some point you must leave it behind and come full circle, arriving back where you started in childhood.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

".... However, the path of transformation always begins and ends in transgender identification by any reasonable measure of meaning.

...Transgender people have predictable kinds of pipe dreams. They often involve magical transformations. ..."


We are disbelieved by everyone that is not transsexual.
Gender queer people too.

I'm not an idiot. I get that as a factual matter I had different parts and I lived as a male for most of my years. That's a simple fact. So what.
Unfortunately, because we are stuck in the cisgender world, in some ways my words are just howling at the moon...
Your words win...people just don't buy it, and there really isn't much to do about it other than soldier on without their approval or understanding.. we deal with it...

But what you are missing (and you will always miss) is that my transition eradicated the transness..I have no internal feeling of being anything but a woman. that's the whole point..
...this is totally and completely different than living a gender queer or transgender life where your transness is part of your identity. My identity is woman.

You can say anything you want about it, but when I read and hear things said by gender queer people about my transness I know how different we are. It directly contradicts my experience..



..I love the concept of "by any reasonable measure of meaning"...its delightfully condescending while also being ignorant of my reality

...and transgender people do have lots of pipe dreams...one of them being that they are transsexual.
transsexuals get their pipe dreams pretty well shattered by the time they actually transition..

[LeaP]

It's an interesting phenomenon. In the thread's terms, it appears that people are prepared to believe that normalcy is only experienced by the cisgender population. That anyone else is either naturally trans-identified or perhaps is permanently crippled in a sense by their experience, even if their sense of gender is firmly in the binary. As such, it represents an outright rejection - or invalidation - of transsexuals' lived experience.

But that is the point of the thread, of course. Not just that it is experienced, but how it comes about. My experience, pre-transition, only goes so far, but is easy to extend into the reported experiences like Kaitlyn's. The reality hit home for me when I realized I was starting to make "of course" decisions based on gender, i.e., that I was no longer giving. This did not resolve external conflicts, of course, but it did substantially address inner conflicts.

The process of realizing this state seems heavily dependent on taking action along gender lines. That is, I experience this sense of unremarkable normalcy as long as I don't deviate. A few observations here: One is that trans-identity (for me) is mostly about what I am not, not what I am. It is a reactive self-view (and a negative one at that). Second, is that it affords some insight into what is gender-based and what is not, undermining the position often taken that there's no way to know this. I think it may even undermine the idea that dress is a mis-focus, as it seems rather absurd to divorce having gender reflected from one of the means of achieving it.

The bottom line is that experience is about (gender) confirmation, not comfort or comprehension. Confirmation of this type virtually paves its own way, regardless of issues, angst, or opposition. And I can see why holding anything in reserve against a return, perhaps even including ongoing involvement in the so-called trans community, might tend to perpetuate some trans identity.

[Angela Campbell]

It depends. Some people get so involved in the trans part that they are comfortable and it becomes their life. All their activities, friends, and even thoughts are the life. It is hard to give that up and start all over again. Some do and move to a normal(for them) life.

I'm moving away from the trans lifestyle. I don't need meetings or hanging out with t girls for support, I go out with gg'S and do what I enjoy doing. I wanted a change so I could live as me. The trans stuff was only a way to get there.

[Kathryn Martin]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Pink Person http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3514810#post3514810)

... However, the path of transformation always begins and ends in transgender identification by any reasonable measure of meaning.

...Transgender people have predictable kinds of pipe dreams. They often involve magical transformations. ...


Nope, the path begins with identification of the sex you are not the gender (the social construct) that is imposed as a result of your sex. I agree transgender people have a lot of predictable pipe dreams and believe in magical transformations, as in women with penises, biological sex is between the ears etc. You and yours just make me tired. And what the hell does that have anything to do with transsexualism.

[Aprilrain]

What Kathryn says makes a lot of sense. Transition for me was about aligning my body with my mind, I didn't have to change anything but my body. My body said male which was all wrong! It needed to say female, that's what felt right.

I'm not sure what a trans identity is? I guess you could say I identify with the struggles of other trans people if they have been through or are in the process of transition. I know what that's like but quite often the identification begins and ends there. We're all very different people from different backgrounds and walks of life.

......Pink?.......you still there?....... Becky I think you might have frightened him.

[becky77]

Becky I think you might have frightened him.

Hey what did I do? I normally only frighten people off, face to face lol.

[Aprilrain]

It seems you have honed your Jedi like skills, now they work even on line!:heehee:

[becky77]

Well at least I didn't waste my money at that Skywalker training course!

[LeaP]

I'm not sure what a trans identity is?

Neither am I, really. At the time I was using it to describe myself, I meant it to be indeterminate. As I wrote earlier, it was a reactive state of mind and a reactive way of viewing myself. All it really meant was that I hadn't come to terms with who I am.

"Trans..." makes more sense to me as a descriptor than as an identity. It describes one aspect of what I am, but not who I am. Physical characteristics can drive identity (e.g., little people), but the evidence here is on the side of trans-ness being transitory.

[Aprilrain]

Well at least I didn't waste my money at that Skywalker training course!

No doubt!

@Lea yeah at one time I was too scared to say I was all woman, a lifetime of repression I suppose, but I've been at this long enough now to know that's all I can be, there's nothing else there.

Like I said I can identify with the transition experience but not in a "trans identity" I can see how if you're gender queer or a middle pather or perhaps even a CDer that that might be an identity in and if itself.

[Kathryn Martin]

Saying I am transsexual is like saying I am a diabetic. If correctly managed with diet and some drugs and a bit of surgical intervention it's like it never was even there.

[Inna]

I still post here, even though I feel miles away from the subjects at hand.
I believe that everyone perceives their world within certain bubble, within that bubble is their immediate history, present and future. Our past becomes less rigid the furter the distance to these events, so our childhood is considerably less attached to today then events from several months ago.
It is the direction we yearn after which brings us forth into the realm of who we are.
As for me, I never stopped seeking absolutness, a term I use lightly as it seems unutainable within its own definition, but a dream constantly in sight, a measure of reality and comfort.
I always wanted nothing less then womanhood, of course limited by confined of contemporary medicine, yet far outreaching reality of the days gone by, when I could had settle on mere mid point of transness.
But I knew, that if my life was surrounded by any label of less then woman, I would simply leave this place for good, as I have already done so once, unsuccesfully.

So you see, I beleive, that reality isnt what limits us, but reality is what dreams we strive for!