Do you support Transgender rights?

[Rogina B]

In a recent thread[as well as many in the past] forum members have let it known where they place themselves on the "T minded "spectrum.The responses are always interesting. As an advocate of forwarding Transgender rights,I have a question based on concern. Are you an advocate in some form yourself,or content to just let others be that way for you? Or by pretending it could never matter to you,inadvertently throw the T community under the bus? We signed up thousands of people this past weekend as "straight allies" to the LGBT community in support of furthering local protections of sexuality and gender identity. Not one of the many people that I approached ,discussed with,and got to pledge seemed concerned that it would "out" or harm them in their life. They just wanted to show their support for the community. So forum members,you may have now,or could have later,"a dog in the fight"...Have you chosen to support the advancement of Transgender rights since you are telling us here on the forum how important gender expression is for you? Replies are welcome from "all sides" of this forum!

[Lucy_Bella]

I do support rights of Transgenders....This is why I find it important ( with all due respect to the TG spectrum) that it separates it's self from the cross dressing umbrella.. I say this not to sound mean, not to sound above any spectrum ( because that's far from the truth) ..I say it to be fair to people with gender identities and the dire need for their own rights to function freely and unharmed is a bias society ..

[JenniferYager]

So what do you mean by rights?

If you mean right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, legal counsel, not be cruelly or unusually punished, well yes, I support those rights for everyone.

Are we talking marriage? That's not really a right, it's currently a privilege extended by the state, just like a drivers license is, so it can be administered as the government sees fit. Those rules can change, and since rights are supposed to not change, I wouldn't really call it a right.

Are we talking the "right" to be who you are? Well, you can do that now, but like anything there are consequences. That's why so many of us stay in the closet. We look and see that the consequences outweigh our desire to be out in public, and we act accordingly. Sure, we can openly crossdress....and get fired, ridiculed, divorced, etc.

The right to medical care? That is a service paid by the taxpayers and the person affected. If we say it's a right to get transgender care, then we are saying it's OK to trample on someone elses right to not have to pay for it. Again, if we are talking a paid service, I have a hard time calling it a right. Access to medical care could be considered a right, but the actual care itself is a service rendered for payment.

I would say we need to define "right" first before we can really ask whether someone supports transgender rights. If I pick up a dictionary, I get a definition that looks like this:

"a moral, ethical, or legal principle considered as an underlying cause of truth, justice, morality, or ethics."

and if I go by that, then transgender rights would be moral, ethical and/or legal principles. But the principles someone would use for a transgender person should be the same for any person.

So yes, I'm for transgender rights, but I think those rights are the same as for any human being. But if you change the definition, then perhaps I would disagree.

[Tracii G]

Yes I support all under the GLBT umbrella CD/ TG/TS.Gay /Lesbian all of it and I do speak out when the subject comes up.
When I go out everyday you can look at me and see what I am and thats part of it I suppose I don't hide my gender identity.
I present as a mix 70% of the time and 100% female the other 30% of the time just depends on how I feel that day.
Been to TG book signings enfemme and as a mix. Walked in gay marches etc in support as well.
I try to let the public see no matter how I present that day that I am a normal and friendly courteous person.

[Lorileah]

I do support rights of Transgenders....This is why I find it important ( with all due respect to the TG spectrum) that it separates it's self from the cross dressing umbrella.. I say this not to sound mean, not to sound above any spectrum ( because that's far from the truth) ..I say it to be fair to people with gender identities and the dire need for their own rights to function freely and unharmed is a bias society ..


Really? So there is a limit or a line where you support rights and where you don't?

First lets get definitions down here. The OP can correct me but TG means ANY person who resents as the opposite gender from their born genetic sex. So if you mean TSs you are not seeing the whole picture. And being elitist is as bad or worse than not supporting at all. The rights of all TGs should be the concern of all TGs. So exactly where would you say you support people. What is the line in the sand where you say..."Hey you aren't a "TG" (TS) you are a crossdresser...or pretender"?

Many here do not support TG rights. They don't want to be associated with anyone in the LGBT community out of fear of being classified as L or G. But to make things worse the L&G community often leaves the T community out to dry. They have left us behind on many occasions the most recent being DADT where several politicians said they would not vote to have it removed if the T community was on the list...so guess what...you still can't be in the military. we will be dropped from ENDA too. Why? Because "we" as a whole community won't fight for our own rights. So many here find it easier to run and hide. The TSs don't have a choice but we don't have the numbers either. When we stand we are left by the rest of the T community in many cases. The OP has a very strong point here. How may T's no matter where you want to place yourself on the spectrum are willing to stand for the whole community? This isn't like being a color or ethnic group or even a sex. "We" can hide in plain sight and to hell with anyone else. As long as we can disappear, who cares about anyone else?

I am so glad that when civil rights was the hot topic in the 60's, people who could have just stayed away didn't. I am ashamed anyone in our community would not stand for even the smallest minority.

[Eryn]

I am not out in my hometown, but that does not preclude me from standing up for those who are, whether G, L, B, or T. if I hear disrespect in a situation where I have influence I will not let it stand unchallenged.

Standing up for the LGBT community does not out you. There are a lot of straight and non-TG people who are firmly in favor of tolerance for all. It isn't always a matter of whether you march or sign up for something, it's often simply challenging the unthinking person who makes flip anti-LGBT statements. When they find that spewing nonsense brings negative attention they will be less likely to spew nonsense.

We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.
[Benjamin Franklin]

[AllieSF]

Your OP and questions sound like an indirect way of saying that those that do not carry the flag are not doing enough and should do a lot more. Is that what you are saying? I believe that each person does what they feel like they are capable of doing, or just want to do for the betterment of society, free speech, minority rights, for whatever the cause. Just like our LGBT spectrum, there are extremes at both ends and then the rest and maybe majority that are somewhere away for the edges, the largest part of the bell curve. In our group one extreme stays in the closet for their own reasons, which are more than adequate for me, while the other extreme maybe be the flag waving, proactive leaders and pushers for the rights of all of us.

Can those who are not in the proactive front do more? Of course they can. Should they? Now that is another question not so easily answered by many. I believe that they should at least try to move beyond their current safe zone and move on until they feel that they may be putting themselves and those around them in a situation that puts them at risk. At that ;point that really need to decide how much further they want to go. That risk is just not about the potential for physical damage, but more in the area of negatively impacting their own lives and the lives of those around them as they now live them. I would never insist nor try to pressure into that situation. At the same time I would never criticize someone if they decided not to take the extra one step forward to be more openly supportive of our joint cause. That is their decision and I respect whatever they decide to do.

In my own case I am not a flag waver and am more a member of that once well known silent majority. I do what I do when I want to do it. I do not feel bad about not marching in the Pride parade, nor about not sending donations to some organization supporting my and other's rights. I do, however, go out 1-2 times a week and interface with total strangers whenever the opportunity arises. I don't preach or deliberately teach and talk about our rights with those strangers. I may talk about what I and others do, and maybe discuss in a little more detail some of the why's, what's and how's. What I also do is, in my own opinion, represent myself and "us" very well to those who may have never met and maybe never even seen one of "us". I have fun with everyone and the reactions to what I do as seen and realized in that moment and sometimes at some other time way in the future only give me the most positive feedback that I could ever hope to receive. So, in my way I am promoting who and what we are to others on an almost weekly basis. I am also at the same time having a wonderful very self fulfilling time. I am having a lot of fun.

[Lucy_Bella]

Yes Lorileah Really..
If the O.P. truly is talking about T.G. rights yes.. I say this for many reasons one being a dresser such as myself with no gender issues would be a conflict for the grounds of freely expressing gender .. If you are T.G. you are not crossdressing per se. You are dressing the gender you are suppose to be representing ,Yes?

Like I said I wasn't saying it to be mean ,not all people are mean..I was trying to be helpful and honest ( which I think some people should try more often here) ..Step outside the box every now and then ,try to look at things in different angles once in a while ..

[Lygophilia]

No, because I gain nothing from it. Gender identity has been ran into the ground to where it give people delsions. That conclusion has solved my gender identity issues. As for marriage, I don't generally support relationships, but the divorce rate is indeed something to laugh about. However, whatever makes you happy, as I would rather see the lgbt community get their way over the religious types.

[sandra-leigh]

Are you an advocate in some form yourself,or content to just let others be that way for you?

I'm a total freeloader. All I do is go out and live my life visibly trans, full time. I don't advocate for trans rights: I just normalize people's experiences by being myself: polite, pleasant, patient, human, humane, honest, engaged in obvious every-day activities. Perhaps a bit of a loner, but not a threat.

I just live, and I leave behind people who start to think, "Trans? Who cares?". It isn't advocacy. Perhaps it isn't even important.

[Amanda M]

I exactly like Eryn here. I am not "out" in our small community, however, if anyone comes away with ani LGTB remarks in my presence, I do take them up on it. I do also write a regular column for a online tranasgender and crossdressing support group

[PaulaQ]

Yes, I support both rights for transgendered persons, as well as an end to discrimination against us:
- we should be able to legally change our names and gender markers
- we should be able to gain employment without discrimination. For many, coming out as trans is a death sentence for their careers.
- we should be able to find and obtain medical care without discrimination from doctors who fear losing their cis patients
- we deserve the right to conduct ourselves in normal public life without being treated like freaks and pariahs - often even by the media

There are many rights we should have that we currently do not have. If you don't believe me, then why do you think our suicide attempt rate is 41%?! Choosing life over death should be the obvious choice - for so many of us, it's not.

I'll say this to all of you who complain "women can wear men's clothes, why can't I wear women's clothes?" -

You haven't earned the right to wear those clothes!

Women fought long and hard to have those rights. They did this without the privilege you enjoy as men. Most of you haven't done anything to fight for your right to present as you choose without harassment. Instead you've ridden on the coattails of the tiny transsexual minority. But we are few in number, fractured as a community, and we're losing this fight.

Help us. Fight for your rights.

[natcrys]

Quoted for emphasis



I'll say this to all of you who complain "women can wear men's clothes, why can't I wear women's clothes?" -

You haven't earned the right to wear those clothes!

.. Instead you've ridden on the coattails of the tiny transsexual minority.


I was going to write something along the lines of this, but you wrote it down much better than I would have.

Just wanted to add that there are also groups of crossdressers (at least in the Netherlands and Belgium) who do go out visibly and do make it known to the general public that we're there. Not everyone in those groups are a 100% out in their immediate surroundings, but wherever they are.. they do try to make a positive impact.. even in the face of ridicule and name-calling.

[GaleWarning]

I am doing a Street Pastors course here in London at the moment. In three of the four training sessions I have attended to date, someone has trashed the LGBT community. I have challenged each of them and on the last occasion, I openly stated, "I support the LGBT community" and engaged the person concerned in a (too brief) discussion on what Jesus has to say about us (ie. nothing!).

I am presently engaged in preparing a Powerpoint presentation on this issue, which I hope to be allowed to share with my colleagues. After all, these are some of the characteristics we are supposed to have, in order become part of the organisation:
1. Someone who is concerned for society and for the young
2. Someone who is able and willing to build bridges
3. Someone who can operate without prejudices

[mikiSJ]

It is somewhat ironic that we are arguing over whether of not the "Ts" and "CDs" should be considered as one group, or not. We argue over whether we should be included in the LGBT definition, or not (I favor not). We argue over whether we deserve "special" rights, or not.

Most of my girlfriends, save one, are somewhere in transition between male and female, as I am. I would label these girls as transgender. But then I am troubled with the label, any label. Why do we need to put everyone is a cubby hole. I know this is fantasy, but let's start treating everyone without using any labels. The are no "special" rights; everyone is the same as the next inasmuch as they want to live their lives without fear, with happyness. They want to be able to walk into a supermarket and have nobody care if you don't look exactly like the person in front of you in the checkout line, or not have to worry that when you run a stop sign that the traffic cop will treat you differently.

I have not been a part of this community for years as many of you have. But, what I do know is that we need to segregate ourselves from the LBGT label, or we will never hope to be treated as I hope we can be. We need to stand on our own and be recognized not as someone needing "special" rights, but simply as somebody who is!

[Vickie_CDTV]

Like Jennifer said, it depends on how one defines "rights". I have heard some of the more fringe elements of the trans community claim some pretty outrageous things as "rights", things I would never advocate. Of course, the same could be same of things some cisgender folks claim as "rights."

[Kate Simmons]

The bottom line is that I support rights for everyone, including TG folks. I have no problem making that known but don't ask me to be an activist, that's for eager beavers with something to prove. I have nothing to prove to anyone nor do I care what they think. I'm my own person and, other than being myself, have no agenda.:)

[BOBBI G.]

My therapist has told me, more than once, that I am an activist, as well as an advocate. I am a volunteer here at Compass, in Lake Worth, and also an active member of the transgender community at the VA here in WPB. For those unfamiliar, these are communities in S.E. Florida. We just had Pride Fest, where they used me as a greeter at the front gate. Two days of just having the best time I'me had in quite a while, doing what I like to do, talk about my being transgender. Lost my voice the second day. If they listen, I willl talk.

Bobbi

[Beverley Sims]

I support everyone to be able to lead the lifestyle they please.
I do look for common decency and appropriate conduct.

I exclude aggressive behavior towards others and interfering with children.

They are "not" lifestyles.

[mechamoose]

Well, it points out the split between the LGBT and TS/CD communities.. which I will admit is a starker divide that I realized existed. I'm coming at this starting from the LGBT end of the world, and I'm learning a lot about those of you coming from the other end.

I don't see a way to separate the two in the eyes of the public, so we are in this together.

Oppression is oppression, discrimination is discrimination. Rights are rights.




There's safety in numbers
When you learn to divide
How can we be in
If there is no outside
All shades of opinion
Feed an open mind
But your values are twisted
Let us help you unwind
You may look like we do
Talk like we do
-But you know how it is

You're not one of us
Not one of us
No you're not one of us

Peter Gabriel - "Not One of Us"

[Marcelle]

Hi Rogina,

Great post and very thought provoking as I have never really given it much thought. My wife and I discussed this late last night after you posted and I took some time to think about it. Firstly do I consider myself TG? As you know I hate labels as they only serve to create groups and even groups have a tendency to spiral into elitism (you are not TG because you are only a part-time dresser . . . shame on you). However in this instance a label is required for political reasons because it is hard to say "hey give us people over here some rights" without defining who "us people" are. So I get the TG label in that respect.

My wife asked me . . . "Do you consider yourself TG?" I thought about it all last night and by current label definition I would have to say "yes" as CDing (gender expression) falls under the TG label. Originally I was going to say "no" as I am not gender confused (I am male and always will be . . . I just like to express myself as female from time to time). So I am TG based on gender expression. :)

Do I support TG rights. Yes in the same way t I support rights for all people no more no less. We (people) all have the right to express ourselves however we please so long as it does not hurt others or advocate hate of another group. So do Neo-Nazi skinheads have the right to march with swastika banners flying? In my book no because the symbol stands for hate. Does the LGBT community have the right to march in open pride? Yes because they are peacefully expressing their rights with no denigration to another group.

Do I do enough to support TG rights? I think passively I do. I am out to several people at work (the military) and will not hide who I am if asked. Sure I am not running around handing out "Hi my name is Isha and I TG" cards at work, but I won't deny it if asked. I go out in public and one look will clearly inform others I am TG. I hold my head up, don't get into shouting matches over rude looks or giggles. If people ask legitimate questions, I will answer them. I exist proudly as a member of TG community when out and about. Do I march, write my member of parliament? Not yet. I have made contact with a local support group but in a way it is like high school with a mean girls table for the cool kids and this gal don't play that game.

Hugs

Isha

[noeleena]

Hi,

Okay what about us females and women ( natal ) look at what we have had to put up with for 1000's of years, look at those of our women who were the suffragette's of the 1860 to 1920's ,

and what they stood up against just to have the ...right... to live, they were abused beaten thrown in the lockups staved and worse, for what, to be counted as normal females and women to own homes and property to have a life that did not include ... men .... as rulers, sexual abuse and take what little we had, degrade us use us as play things then when they had thier fill throw us out,

so lets see if i have this right

Men, you took our rights away, yet wonted our bodys then when we had given all you raped us killed us beat us then throw us out on the street , if we survived all that,

And now after all what we went through you wont our clothes still wont sex, our private places or whats left of our sactuary;s so do we really have any left of what our women went through to just gain our lives back..and be us as normal female and women that we should be,

i see the rights that are being discussed here are for LGBT,

Those of us who are female women . natal are not included .

OUR women went in to the fight for life for all women around the world and we still dont have what we ...NEED....its not a right of ...WONT....big difference.

What really needs to be looked at is the right of ... LIFE... each of us has been given not just a segregated few, of some few 100,000 or 500,000 , this is not half of the worlds population .

...noeleena...

[Rogina B]

[QUOTE




So yes, I'm for transgender rights, but I think those rights are the same as for any human being. But if you change the definition, then perhaps I would disagree.[/QUOTE]
Someone can be "in the closet" and yet still get behind the promotion of human rights,without "outing themselves" Sexual preference and gender identity protections are not "a given" and certainly not all encompassing in your state of Georgia. If a pro LGBT politician needed support via signatures or letters to the Governor,would you make the effort to do that? Or,do you take the stand that it will never affect you personally?

[Amanda M]

Paula Q - are you telling me that I don't have the right to wear womens clothes, or that somehow, I have to earn that right. If I have to earn that right, just how do I do it?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Rogina, I'm all for live and let live.

[alwayshave]

I am a civil libertarian, so I don't support TG rights per se, I support all individual rights. Meaning, as long as someone's action is not infringing on another's liberty, I have no issue with what they do. I dislike rights directed to a group. Stated differently, I believe that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment to the Constitution protects all individuals. For example, laws that would prevent a TS or CD from entering a ladies room are unconstitutional because they impede their right to present as they choose.

[bridget thronton]

I like to think I support the rights of all people to live their lives as they wish. It seems to me that transgender folks cause harm to no one (and I do not take offense at being labeled trans)

[Nadine Spirit]

I just normalize people's experiences by being myself: polite, pleasant, patient, human, humane, honest, engaged in obvious every-day activities.

Yeah, this is what I do as well.

A note on kind of a side conversation happening within this thread. Should CD be included in the T spectrum? Do you all know that many G & L do not want the B included with them? The argument is similar to the CD and T one. B's are not full time and they can disappear into society so they should not be included with the G & L's. Funny how so many marginalized people want to exclude others from "their" group, because they don't do it the way they do it. The old 'I deserve rights, but you don't' argument.

[arbon]

The first couple years of my transitioning were really hard. I had to get up and go out the door everyday anyway, and face the small community where I live, my family, friends, work, everyone that knew me. When I say hard I mean there were a lot of times I was just in tears.

I had to be an advocate for my right to live my life here and keep doing it and not give up or let anyone see how much they were hurting me no matter how much I cried at night. In the end I won (and another local trans woman who went through the same crap). Because of us my community is much more aware of and accepting of trans people.

I have sense been more involved with advocating changes in the states human rights act. It is an uphill battle in a state with a bad reputation for being anti lgbt. I have gone so far as to being arrested for the cause (along with a couple hundred other protesters).

Being honest - sometimes I get resentful when crossdressers complain about being oppressed or feeling society does not treat them fairly when the majority of them stay anonymous and safely in the closet. They don't do anything to change it, don't stick their necks out, can't be honest about who they are, then they should not complain about it.

[Eryn]

Nadine, I find the attitude odd too. I'm not TS, but I will support them even if certain TS individuals refuse to support anyone who is "not TS enough."

Civil rights are not earned. They are inalienable and apply to everyone.

[Rogina B]

I am a civil libertarian, so I don't support TG rights per se, I support all individual rights. Meaning, as long as someone's action is not infringing on another's liberty, I have no issue with what they do. I dislike rights directed to a group. Stated differently, I believe that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment to the Constitution protects all individuals. For example, laws that would prevent a TS or CD from entering a ladies room are unconstitutional because they impede their right to present as they choose. You don't mention discrimination at all,which surprises me.Human rights should include sexual and gender identity as well,don't you think? In housing,in the work place,etc. Nothing special,just being included in the laws... Most people on this forum are in a pretty good place in life and often have no clue as to the devastation that discrimination cause to a person's life. Most of the TS girls on here are in a pretty good place as well as many are still earning in their original occupations.However,there are many others that have been driven from the workplace,down a slippery slope,to a place in life that is hand to mouth survival,and people on here tend to forget those "T"s,many of whom would still be in their former workplace if not for their employer's right to discriminate.

[Ms. Alexis]

Actually I have to say I don't like the terms used and how they are stereotyped. "Gay Rights" have become a catch all for promoting an agenda and once the media has beaten that to death I imagine "Transgender Rights" will be the next battle cry. The truth is it should simply be Freedom of Sexuality and Freedom of Gender, Period. The media wants to make everything a battle and stir up emotions to sell advertising and make money and when it comes right down to it they don't care about "Rights" aside from the right to make money. If people really want equality and the law to back it up approach it in a common sense way.. Think about it this way - Here in this forum we all have as someone put it "a dog in the fight" to some degree or another but even when I hear the term "Gay Rights" the feelings that come up are largely negative because of the frothing at the mouth in your face stuff the media puts out. So if I were to ask most people if they believe we should all have the right to freedom of sexuality and freedom of gender I would guarantee that the level of support and/or approval I received would be dramatically higher across the board that if I used the term gay rights and transgender rights.

So getting back to the original question - No... I guess I don't support TG rights or the image of the Rocky Horror Picture Show being on every corner that is the Stereotype out there that makes many people just dig their heels in against it. I do support Freedom of Sexuality and Freedom of Gender, and most importantly Tolerance for all views because that is what Freedom is all about and making a CEO step down because he donated money to pro man / woman marriage group is no different than punishing a CEO for donating to a Cause that promotes LGBT marriage, especially when this had to be dug up from several years ago. Freedom is about being allowed to have your own beliefs regardless of their popularity and tolerating others beliefs that are different from our own.

[kimdl93]

Yes, I do support transgender rights. I am a very private individual, but I do what I can in both my personal and professional life to be a positive role model and actively support the cause of equality.

[PaulaQ]

Paula Q - are you telling me that I don't have the right to wear womens clothes, or that somehow, I have to earn that right. If I have to earn that right, just how do I do it?

I can't speak to any person specifically, and I definitely can't speak to conditions in Spain, because I don't know how things are for us there. But here in the states, things can be rough. Discrimination in employment, housing, and in just about every other situation you can think of is common for transgender people. There are a TON of users on this site who sit quietly in the closet, terrified because they DON'T want to face the fallout of coming out as a CD:
- potential loss of spouse
- potential loss of friends / family
- potential loss of status in the community
- potential loss of employment
etc.

You get caught in a dress, you lose your "man card" - that's the fear.

And you know what? Many of those fears are based in reality. At the very least, CDs tend to be subject to ridicule.

If you are tired of living like this - having your harmless secret overshadow your life, then goddammit fight to make yourselves known. There are a LOT of CDs. Way more than transsexuals. You pay taxes, you vote, and if you raise enough hell, politicians will notice.

Women did it - their lot improved. They still have a ways to go, but progress is being made.
Minorities did it.
Handicapped people did it.
Gays and Lesbians are doing it now - gay marriage is all but a certainty now in the US, maybe one supreme court case away.

Transgender folks are still fighting over whether or not we get to use public restrooms! (The arguments used against us are essentially the same arguments used to justify segregated restrooms for minorities.)
I have friends with high paying careers who've lost them by coming out as trans.
I have friends who've had difficulty obtaining housing because they were trans.

Ask yourself - is this the life you want?

[Bridget68]

I do support the rights of everyone, if it isn't hurting or bothering anyone who really cares what somebody is choosing to be. We all do this for our own reasons, whether its a fetish or we are truly Trans gendered. It is sad that society views and labels a person a freak because they choose to be a certain way. So stupid if you ask me. IT takes way more guts to openly admit that you cross dress or heavens forbid come to the conclusion that you were given the wrong sex at conception. We are who we are.

[Tina_gm]

Do I support the basic rights of TG individuals that everyone else has? of course. I guess this is politically correct week here on this site.... Not really to many on here who will think or feel otherwise. Am I going to be a dog in the fight? no, I am not.

I am not going to disrupt the life of my children, wife, workplace, family or friends due to TG rights fights. I am not going to out myself for this cause. Call me whatever you want, scared, chicken, betrayer, but I am not going to out myself for this. Especially when it comes to my kids, I will not disrupt their life and make them suffer just so I can be outspoken on TG issues. I will never throw anyone under the bus, but, I am not a dog in the fight.

[sanderlay]

I do personally support the rights of all persons, all human beings, and this of course includes Transgender persons of all labels, LGBT, what ever your sexually preference is, what ever your color, what ever your race, who ever you love is, etc...

Whenever we try or think we can exude any person their rights we go down a slippery slope that will harm all of us as a people, and most importantly ourselves.

[devida]

Harvey Fierstein has a new play about to open on Broadway called Casa Valentina. You can read about it in last Sunday's New York Times and elsewhere. The play concerns itself with a Catskills resort for cross dressers, an historical place, where heterosexual and usually married men could come with their wives and dress as women. These guys were pillars of their community and closeted. The plot of the play concerns itself with an incident that actually did destroy the historical resort when one of the founders determined that homosexuals should be excluded from the resort on the basis that, in the future, when homosexuals are still skulking around in back alleyways furtively seeking sex, heterosexual cross dressers would be proudly out and accepted by the community as men who just like to wear women's clothes.

Of course it didn't work out that way. And the reason is obvious, isn't it? Gay men and lesbians stood up, out and proud, and demanded the same rights as heterosexuals, and, as society realizes that there is no argument for social and legal oppression of gay and lesbian minorities, more and more nations have accorded them the same rights as the heterosexual majority, to the extent that not only is marriage equality clearly moving towards national acceptance but there were more hate crimes against jews last year recorded thatnagainst gays and lesbians.

That's not true for transgender, and if any of you think that your protestations that you are not transgender but simply a cross dresser are persuasive just go out there in women's clothes (not passing) and see if society at large makes that distinction. It doesn't. As far as most people are concerned, transgender, the most visible sign of which is that you are wearing the clothes of another gender, is far less acceptable than being gay or lesbian. Transgender is a direct threat to social norms in just the way that being gay or lesbian used to be.

I'm not asking for people to be activist or even out as transgender. I'm not out to every one I know though I'm clearly not wearing men's clothes and I'm wearing make up and I'm quite femme. I do allow people to just let themselves think of me as odd or weird. I'm just asking every one of us to be honest. You want to stay in the closet, stay in the closet. Your reasons may be persuasive and necessary for you. But don't kid yourself that you are not participating in the very thing that has forced you to stay in the closet and that will continue to keep you there. The LG part of the movement has clearly shown that being out and open is the only way that civil rights can be achieved. The B and T need to do the same.

[PaulaQ]

That's not true for transgender, and if any of you think that your protestations that you are not transgender but simply a cross dresser are persuasive just go out there in women's clothes (not passing) and see if society at large makes that distinction. It doesn't.

This is right on the money, and why I find it so amazing when people on this forum speak about "Oh, I don't like labels..." You don't get a choice about what society thinks about you - your opinion about whether or not their label applies to you matters not one iota.

As far as they are concerned, you are a dude in a dress, probably gay and wanting a sex change. Oh, and out to molest "real" women in the restroom. (The inherent contradictions implicit in these ideas is sort of mind blowing - but we are talking about stupidity here.)

[Anna H]

As far as any "rights" for CD's, I don't see that ever happening.

There's far too much against us.

It's easy enough to understand Gay rights and even TS rights, but
to ask for special protections so we can go about cross-dressed
is a fantasy I wouldn't even remotely expect to ever happen.

It's not us who decides these things. It's the *Vast* majority, and
they're never going to view us with any favor. We're squarely in
the category of being "deviants"...at best.

Gays, and even TS, very often don't care for us and won't want
us included in any rights. Our presence would be harmful to their
cause.

Our problem is, we're all over the map. There are too many types
of CD's. Anybody who wants to put on a wig and lipstick can be
a CD. We wouldn't even defend one another when it comes right
down to it.

Take a look on any of the "tube" sites. See all the variations
of CD's there are and it's too easy to know within seconds that
the majority of us would want to distance ourselves as far as
possible from that sort of public behavior. They "are" CD's...
but not the "right kind" of CDs. So who decides who's the good
ones or the bad ones.

If laws are debated before they're considered to become laws, then
CD's are bad news for making those kinds of decisions. It's too
easy to make us look very badly and nobody fighting for legitimate
rights will want that sort of thing even mentioned.

It's easy to know what a gay person is. It's easy to understand
a TS person. It's reasonable to sympathize with them. But who the
heck are these odd CD people. What exactly are they asking for.

Being realistic may not be fun, but it's not a good idea to ignore
reality. There's far too much against us.

-

[KaceyR]

I also support whenever I can. And I am hoping I can do more in the future.
However, I will state, that along with my newness to CDing (1/2 year), my knowledge on TG issues has been learned at the same time. Up until CDing times, my own thoughts or knowledge and experience has kind of been only in the GL range. (Never had thought on sexuality vs gender difference really).

1 coworker, L, now for many years. She was let go from work unfairly..but not due to 'L' that I can tell. More done in a tricky way based on medical issues... Indications are she was considered a medical liability and after leave for back surgery issues, when she came back she was told position was removed. He'll of a way to let someone go...she could've been applying ahead of time if they'd let her know ahead of time. Oh and that position? Another new one created and filled shortly after.
2: friend..'G' - ham radio ties even. Knew him as he finished high school -he'd come out near the end of that. Went to other state + college, later found someone and married (same sex). Doing well now.
3: friend 'G' - about same age really. Known for some time.. Only was told last year or 2.

Now while I understood some of their hardships, I'd not really broadcast support group-wise. Oh I supported the individuals, but not the cause. Thru this last year though, I've gotten a bit more vocal...especially with more stupid phobic laws being done which I've viewed as illogical hatred and bigotry. (Also I'm a romantic..hate to see these marriages toyed around with by legislators (and religion) that seem it have no concept of love...). So I've been a bit more vocal at times on my male Facebook side (hitting 300+ people thanks to gaming I've done-including a few evangelical type of people too.). But not yet out there in standing activistic support. I hope to a bit at the least this year during pride events.

So now I've continued that into the trans side of things. And just starting to contact the local groups and plan to hopefully be more involved. I'm a bit sad to see the disparity between LG to the other 'letters' at times. Were all wanting the same thing, equality and freedom to express and coexist and have same capabilities to live as everyone else without issue. Sex and gender meanings are still misunderstood by most unfortunately.

I was kind of amazed and glad that my workplace (Sears) did fully support a transitioner ~2-3 years back. She still works there. Might have seen her once (just a 'good morning' though due to shift timing and building area differences). Hope it's been well for her. So I guess there's still hope for some.

So summary: yup I try to support all the 'letters'.

[Bria]

To answer the original question, yes I support TG rights. I'm CD but guess I fit under the TG umbrella (see Isha's arguments on this). Do I march and carry banners, no, I've not had the opportunity. However I have volunteered to assist a group that presents to small groups at a local university, Ive not been asked to help yet.

Having read on this forum of the many trials and tribulations of those who are transitioning, and talking to people in a local "nite out" group, has made me aware that the preceptions of the general public need to change.

My two cents.

Hugs Bria

[DCUnitedfan1988]

I do not actively go out and support equal rights, but do want everyone to be treated as equals. I think most of my support goes to my stepmom.

[Katey888]

This is definitely an interesting discussion... one that, sadly, I don't feel like I can contribute very much positively - but I'll try anyhows... (sorry - this is long..)

Firstly, I think it's interesting we have a bit of the label issue coming up again - but I think in this discussion it is key. If you are wanting to get legislators, politicians, commercial interests, etc. behind any sort of rights, you have to both agree what the definitions (labels) are AND make it easy enough for the aforementioned schmucks that run countries, write legislation and vote them into enforceable statutes... If we can't agree between us (not that we're anybody other than just a discussion forum, after all...) then who else will understand..?????

And we can't seem to agree - the OP states things like 'T-spectrum' ; 'T community' - sorry, but what do these things mean?
Then we have the CD vs TG vs TS wrangle.... and it is a wrangle, and I understand why - because at one end, the closeted/ fetish CD doesn't need any new rights... existing rights serve them perfectly well, imho.

At the other end - TS should be adequately protected by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (you are, after all, human...) and other national laws - but getting those rights recognised and acted upon requires votes - from legislators and politicians... who in turn derive their tenure from votes from the populace (in simplistic terms) - Kate H has hit on this point already - unless you can make it easy for people to understand what you're asking for, and unless you can get people to agree with the sense of injustice, you'll get nowhere. How do you get them to listen? Simple definitions and message + NUMBERS... There's the next challenge that Paula's highlighted... very few TS folk - not a good economic bet...

So let's pull in the TG folk... Ahhh - my sector - or is it? We can't really agree on that either. If you have no gender uncertainty, are you TG? (Thanks Isha...) Well, I think so - but who the heck am I? I have no uncertainty that I'm male, and no desire to be different. I appear to make a curiously good female (crude appearance measure!) and I feel good about it, but I don't know why...?!
Is it more than a fetish? Absolutely.
Do I need to take my feminine portrayal into public? Absolutely not. (I might one day - but I'm pretty sure I don't need to)
Do I think I'm TG? Absolutely yes - because wtf I am doing this for otherwise!

But - how do you draw a line between me and - say - Lucy Bella? There surely are no physiological tests for this, and there probably aren't even any reliable psychometric tests to prove this either...

So...
Can't agree between ourselves...
Can't make it easy for others to understand...
Can't agree on definitions...
Definitions can't be proven with anything approaching anecdotal, let alone, scientific certainty...
We as any sort of community don't have the numbers to swing this anywhere...

Which leaves me on the sidelines and in the closet with mutt... If anything, our homework has to be to get all that straight with ourselves, before we go out to find our 'die in a ditch' position...

So HOW and WHEN does that happen...? :)

BTW - I totally support the ideal that these rights should be there... but it will take a lot more clout to make it happen...

Katey x

[Audrey Sis]

I'm with Paula and devida on this. My caveat is that my daughter is 20 and accepting of me, and I live in a very liberal town, so perhaps I have a better shot at pushing boundaries than many feel they have to opportunity to do.

Nothing ever has changed for "fringe" groups Unless people have been made "uncomfortable." Men were upset about the notion of women voting. Caucasians the same about African-Americans voting and omg, sitting Near them on the bus. Heterosexuals were (sure many still are) about Homosexuals marrying. (Each Other, btw... Heteros don't have to marry Gays :p) ..

So, to say that the general population should not be made to feel uncomfortable by a "man in a dress" is an invalid argument in my book. This IS what must happen to bring about change. "Nothiing changes if nothing changes." I forget who I'm quoting there, but it's simple physics.

I again admit I'm in the enviable position of starting a new job wherein the Employee Manual specifically protects gender identity as well as gender and sexual orientation. When I interviewed for the position I left on my clear nail polish, studs in both ears, bracelets.. While I wasn't really pushing much in the way of gender perception, I feel comfortable exploring with my co-workers what may constitute appropriate attire for me. I'm not planning to wear mini-skirts and fishnet stockings, but those are inappropriate in any office :D At the office, it's about the work. If I and my co-workers are productive, the rest is irrelevant.

Around the neighborhood, I live in downtown Santa Cruz, my bare legs and cute toenail polish are pretty obvious. I aim to keep pushing such boundaries as far as I feel comfortable.

So to answer the question: I do support TG rights.

Blessings to all,
Audrey

[Tina_gm]

this probably won't win me any popularity awards on this site but oh well... but what rights are we talking about anyway? Are we arrested if we go out dressed? incarcerated? are we not allowed to vote? Are we not counted in the census?

Is there at times unfairness? Absolutely. But those unfair situations which the TG community finds themselves in is not a group all by itself. It's life and it's the human condition. Ask the 5'4" bald guy how fair life is. I don't think he asked for his plight in life anymore than anyone else, and don't think he hasn't had to fight a lot harder for anything he has attained in life either. Granted, society may have more sympathy toward him than of CDers, but in reality, they are not all that much more fair toward the short bald guy.

As for public restrooms... if dressed, and unless we are 100% undetectable, neither men or women are going to be too comfortable with us going into either bathroom. I say deal with it which ever bathroom you decide to use. That is not a rights issue, that is a society issue. If someone physically assaults us because of how we are dressed, whether it be because of a bathroom we used or any other reason, they do not get a free pass for doing so. THEY still get arrested for assault. We can say because we are TG we should not be discriminated against, and you would be correct. Stand in line, there are a whole lot of people getting discriminated against for any number of reasons, including being horizontally challenged and follicly deficient. It doesn't make it right, but those are society issues, not human rights issues.

[PaulaQ]

@ gendermutt

Most employers don't fire bald guys, or refuse to hire them in the first place
Most rental companies won't deny an apartment to a bald guy
Most doctors don't shun bald guys because they'll "scare off their patients with hair"
Few women decide "OMG, I can no longer live with you - you lost your hair and YOU AREN'T A MAN ANYMORE!"
Bald dudes don't have to worry about someone calling the cops when they use the restroom, and having the cop demand "do you have a letter from your doctor?"
Bald dudes don't have to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get their driver's licenses changed to "bald".
41% of bald dudes don't attempt suicide because their situation is so desperate.

They are just bald dudes. If they care enough - they can get cosmetic or medical treatment for their condition. No one thinks twice about it. No one tells them "OMG! Are you SURE you don't want to be bald anymore?"

Oh yeah, they probably don't have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to get treatment for their baldness.

The local paper and local parents are unlikely to push for the removal of a bald teacher - because "young kids might be influenced by that at an impressionable age."

Please explain to me again how you think our issues are trivial. I don't see this stuff as much different than telling certain races that they need to ride on the back of the bus. Or that they can only live in certain parts of town, or have certain kinds of jobs.

@Katey - "We must hang together, ladies...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately" (with apologies for paraphrasing Ben Franklin)

We have to band together if we want these situations to improve. If you don't feel comfortable putting on your favorite garments and walking in public, going to your job, telling your wife, going about your daily life as yourself, or at least the fragment of yourself that needs to be let out from time to time, then you are part of the problem.

Society doesn't WANT you to exist, and they damn sure don't want transsexuals like me to exist. They'll sort of tolerate the really pretty, totally passable ones of us - because we can pretend we were born women, and they can too. (Well, if the state cooperates - some won't allow you to change your birth certificate in a way that hides your birth gender.)

It's really about numbers. I hope the Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual folks keep doing the heavy lifting for us Transgender folks, I really do. If they don't, there simply aren't enough transsexuals to make a difference. And many of us go back in the closet post transition too, just trying to live the lives we felt we should've been born into. At best though, we are 0.3% of the population - it's simply not enough for them to care about us.

And indeed, the scary part is we make an EXCELLENT scapegoat for society's moral failures. Small, unpopular, invisible - perfect for politicians to use to rile up the folks.

[Zylia]

Paula, the issues you named are not trivial. This may or may not apply to gendermutt, but this is the second thread in a week (after the one about gender equality) in which people say something along the lines of "there are other problems, so let's not try and fix this one". There's a sad trend on the internet to try and sound like a contrarian detached from all earthly concerns, which is really easy if you're fairly male, fairly white and fairly privileged to begin with. Every problem is easily solved if you reduce everything to numbers, but you obviously lose your humanity in the process.

[Tina_gm]

The issues Paula brings up are by no means trivial, but they are primarily TS issues. I am responding to rights that are denied to CDers, which there are really not much in the way that are denied. While I stand behind the TS community to not be denied rights, when I make such a post as I did it pertains to CDers, as this is the main MTF cross dressing section, so I made my post in relation to CDers.

[PaulaQ]

@ gendermutt - if the issues are TS only, why are so many here afraid of facing them. You get to pass as a dude when you need to, as a CDer - what I'm suggesting is that your reliance on that is part of the problem. You should be able to rent an apartment en femme. You should be able to go to work en femme - or at least not fear consequences if you come out.

And yes, this is also a shameless plea for help for us TSs. If the GLB folks dump us, which is not impossible, then I fear we will rather quickly revert to the days of "pass or die."

[mechamoose]

While I'm right there behind you Paula, (You kick butt, girl!) I think I have identified an undercurrent which matters in this discussion. Not that it changes the discussion, just that it identifies an important dividing line.

"Free to be yourself" (Rights) vs "A snicker free environment" (Acceptance)

I know we want both. I don't need Joe Sixpack to accept me, I just don't want him and his buddies to mug me in an alley.

Acceptance would be nice, but I'd honestly be happy with not being discriminated against. While they are both important goals, they are not the *same* goal.

- MM

[Lucy_Bella]

But - how do you draw a line between me and - say - Lucy Bella? There surely are no physiological tests for this, and there probably aren't even any reliable psychometric tests to prove this either...

So...
Can't agree between ourselves...
Can't make it easy for others to understand...
Can't agree on definitions...
Definitions can't be proven with anything approaching anecdotal, let alone, scientific certainty...
We as any sort of community don't have the numbers to swing this anywhere...

Hey now! lol :)

I think we agree more to disagree .. You are right the closeted Cder has no need for any rights.. We don't care to go out dressed ( we do have getting caught issues but no rights are needed there).. I think everyone has missed my point..

First of all , I did say I will be supportive ( that doesn't mean waving a flag tho ).. Next ,Gender issues are a "way of life" for that part of the T.G. spectrum.. Pleasure Dressing is a" life style" for my end of the CD spectrum ..I think that removing my end would better serve the T.G.s with G.I.D... It sure would clear up allot of society confusion..But that is my innocent humble opinion.. Not meaning any harm in saying that in any other way..

[PaulaQ]

@lucy - I dressed less than you did up until 1 month before I came out to myself. You really don't know where you fall for certain on the spectrum - hopefully you never find yourself in my position realizing one horrible, horrible night "oh shit, I'm a woman."

A year ago, I never thought my life would be like this. I'd implore you to think not that we have nothing in common, but rather "there, but for the grace of God, go I..."

[devida]

I continue to be amazed by cross dressers not understanding that society and often law clearly restricts their ability to express themselves the way they choose. This is simple.

Male cross dressers want to dress the way that women dress. They do not have protections under the law or the social approval to do this in public. It simply cannot be that anyone has the right to fire you, deny you housing, trade, or any of the perquisites of normal social and economic transactions because of the way you dress. That is a denial of basic human rights. Why would anyone make excuses for any government, employer, friend or lover who denies your right to dress the way you want to? But right now they can restrict that right.

You have no right to wear a dress to work practically anywhere in the world if you are a man and you're not wearing a kilt or a sarong or some other dress socially acceptable for men to wear in whatever culture you happen to be. You can be fired, you can be attacked, you can be harassed, you can be judged without legal or social consequence almost anywhere in the world. In some countries you can be imprisoned and even executed. Yet some people on this board do not seem to understand that we are talking about a human rights issue. That issue is the right to wear any clothes you feel like wearing. What is so difficult to understand?

And I am not even coming close to transgender rights here. I am talking about a very limited issue that cannot be resolved without transgender rights, because even though it looks like just fashion it really is an issue of gender rights. We must have the right to our gender and if that means we express our gender through our clothes, well that is what we do. Gender is not a matter or sex. It is a matter of identity. You cannot tell me I am not a Christian, a Moslem or a Jew. You cannot tell me I am not brown or black because I look white. You cannot tell me I am a man or a woman or neither because of what I have between my legs. Unless you strip search me you actually cannot tell what is between my sex is, which is not the same as my gender or sexual orientation, and frankly, your implicit wish to look at my genitals is kind of creepy.

I choose to wear feminine clothes and nobody should have have the right to stop me. You cannot tell me what my gender is by looking at me. I could be a man wearing women's clothes but happy being a man or I could be a woman wearing the clothes that fit my gender and still have a penis. Or I could be, as I am, neither and both. You must must ask me if you are so damn interested in what my gender happens to be. That is my right as a human being. If you restrict that right you are oppressing me.

That is what transgender rights are.

[Lucy_Bella]

@lucy - I dressed less than you did up until 1 month before I came out to myself.

Okay...So what does that mean?



You really don't know where you fall for certain on the spectrum

I will agree in fact I'll go another step further and say nobody here does .. We can't even agree to a spectrum let alone many of us won't even allow ourselves to be labeled ..It's a very confusing spectrum ,even to a insider.. :)

But I will tell you this Paula with no doubt at all..I have been dressing for nearly a half a century.. I at no time ever thought I was a girl or wanted to live as a girl..Why would I start now? :)

Wear what you want I have no issues at all over that.. NONE.. I must be mistaken over the topic of the original POST of this thread.. I some how must of thought this thread was over T.G. or GID rights and not the simple act of wearing clothing.. That is all I do is simply wear the clothing I have no desire to push my way of dressing on anyone else or on society ..It's my secret and mine alone unless I am here to support other pleasure dressers other that that, it's a private matter..

[PaulaQ]

@lucy - it means I could, and did say the exact same things as you just did - until one day, I could not. :(

[Lucy_Bella]

So forum members,you may have now,or could have later,"a dog in the fight"...Have you chosen to support the advancement of Transgender rights since you are telling us here on the forum how important gender expression is for you? Replies are welcome from "all sides" of this forum!

To stay on topic I can see where you are coming from Paula by suggesting that last reply..Your " way of life "is based as a individual need rather come late or early in life...I appreciate and respect your warnings to me of the events that lead you to now..

But honesty ,unless I am denying myself ( and I know 100 percent I am not ) I will continue being the old pervert I am..Trust me I have thought this out and I do not ever see myself living any other way of life I enjoy my male self ...I wish you the best ..I also wish you happiness through and during your new path of being who you truly feel you should be you have my support..

[alwayshave]

You don't mention discrimination at all,which surprises me.Human rights should include sexual and gender identity as well,don't you think? In housing,in the work place,etc. Nothing special,just being included in the laws... Most people on this forum are in a pretty good place in life and often have no clue as to the devastation that discrimination cause to a person's life. Most of the TS girls on here are in a pretty good place as well as many are still earning in their original occupations.However,there are many others that have been driven from the workplace,down a slippery slope,to a place in life that is hand to mouth survival,and people on here tend to forget those "T"s,many of whom would still be in their former workplace if not for their employer's right to discriminate.

Rogina, my point is not to exclude a group, but to include everyone. Meaning, when you name a group as being deserving rights based upon status, you inevitably discriminate against others who are not members of the group. Discrimination is unconstitutional at any level. Laws that treat someone who is a TG or TS differently are unconstitutional. An employer who fires someone for exhibiting another gender leaves themselves open for civil liability. I don't for a second think that people are not discriminated against for gender, preferred gender, sexual preference, race, etc. I just want all individuals protected.

[sandra-leigh]

"Gay Rights" have become a catch all for promoting an agenda

What "agenda" is that? The advocacy of cultural acceptance and normalization of non-heterosexual orientations and relationships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_agenda)?


If you are tired of living like this - having your harmless secret overshadow your life, then goddammit fight to make yourselves known. There are a LOT of CDs. Way more than transsexuals. You pay taxes, you vote, and if you raise enough hell, politicians will notice.

When a political party declares opposition in principle, then unless you are in the 10% or so of swing voters, advocating for a position might be considered as proof that their principle is right (e.g., "if gay people aren't planning to force everyone to be gay, then they wouldn't be so loud about this"). Sometimes divide-and-conquer diplomacy works better.


Of course it didn't work out that way. And the reason is obvious, isn't it? Gay men and lesbians stood up, out and proud, and demanded the same rights as heterosexuals, and, as society realizes that there is no argument for social and legal oppression of gay and lesbian minorities, more and more nations have accorded them the same rights as the heterosexual majority, to the extent that not only is marriage equality clearly moving towards national acceptance but there were more hate crimes against jews last year recorded thatnagainst gays and lesbians.

That's not true for transgender,

The Stonewall rights were about transwomen refusing to be harassed any further. Trans people have always been involved in gay rights, but since there are many more gay people than trans people, trans people have repeatedly been pushed aside and told their time will come later. For example the US ENDA was drafted including trans rights, but when there was opposition to that, the trans rights portions were jettisoned, "If we include this then the whole package will fail, and you wouldn't want that, would you?"


Nothing ever has changed for "fringe" groups Unless people have been made "uncomfortable."

Never? So there is no role for people like me who go out and just be ourselves and let people discover that they aren't uncomfortable after all?


If you don't feel comfortable putting on your favorite garments and walking in public, going to your job, telling your wife, going about your daily life as yourself, or at least the fragment of yourself that needs to be let out from time to time, then you are part of the problem.

That's going way too far, in my opinion. I did not become trans as a "cause"; I am trans for myself. Do you really think that I ought be demanding my mother to accept my being trans on the basis that I would be Betraying The Cause if I took the soft approach with her ? Is there a trans fund of some kind that I can draw upon in compensation for loss of work when news of my transition goes to every continent and subcontinent (yes, I have been consulted by people in Antarctic) with me posting "I'm trans and you are going to like it!"? Is making waves for The Trans Cause absolutely positively definitely the best way to help?

I don't see other trans people martyring themselves for my needs. I don't see other trans people even asking what my needs are. If I experience some discomfort and exercise some caution then I am so not going to beat myself up about "not doing enough".

You really ought to review your history more carefully. Gay and Lesbians have not been "doing the heavy lifting" for trans people: trans people have been there and active all along, just not insistent that "If you don't include trans rights then we're going to campaign against this as not going far enough".


Discrimination is unconstitutional at any level.

When you are in a grocery store and there is a half-rotten onion in the bin, and a complete onion beside it, which of the two do you buy? Why are you discriminating against rotten food?

If you are chatting around the water cooler with some advertising executives and you ask "What is this black spot on my elbow?" and one of them says "Pneumonia" and another says "grease", then why aren't you going to go to clothing store to buy some cyanide to eat to cure pneumonia? Are you going to discriminate against nonsense, against inappropriate venues, against harmful actions? How do you know that eating cyanide would not cure the black spot on your elbow, seeing as it is apparently "unconstitutional" to discriminate, and thus "unconstitutional" to consider past experience, scientific experiments, intelligence, or anything else that might allow you "to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately".

Not all discrimination is unlawful. Some kinds of discrimination are necessary to survive (e.g., being careful about what one eats). Some kinds of discrimination are a practical necessity, such as requiring people to be minimally competent at their jobs. Some kinds of discrimination may be evolved (e.g., xenophobia is a proven survival trait under some conditions), but ethically one should struggle to overcome while acknowledging their reality. Some kinds of discrimination have no observable benefit, only observable harm, and are rightly banned.

[Rogina B]

Rogina, my point is not to exclude a group, but to include everyone. Meaning, when you name a group as being deserving rights based upon status, you inevitably discriminate against others who are not members of the group. Discrimination is unconstitutional at any level. Laws that treat someone who is a TG or TS differently are unconstitutional. An employer who fires someone for exhibiting another gender leaves themselves open for civil liability. I don't for a second think that people are not discriminated against for gender, preferred gender, sexual preference, race, etc. I just want all individuals protected.
In more states than not,sexual preference and gender identity are NOT protected under law!It is presently not included. Living in DC,there are forward thinking protections in place...some other progressive areas have them as well. California girls only know protections as do Massachusetts girls.. But it isn't a given...Other places in the country,discrimination runs rampant. I wish there were more people on this thread that would accept the "greater T world" and it's plight..Unfortunately,there is more support for sexual and gender identity laws from the general population then there is from members here! It isn't a "die in the ditch" or wave the flag support that I speak of..I merely asked if people here actually support human rights as it relates to "T"...

[Terraforming]

I can't speak to any person specifically, and I definitely can't speak to conditions in Spain, because I don't know how things are for us there. But here in the states, things can be rough. Discrimination in employment, housing, and in just about every other situation you can think of is common for transgender people. There are a TON of users on this site who sit quietly in the closet, terrified because they DON'T want to face the fallout of coming out as a CD:
snip

This is a good point. I'm a transsexual, am out to most of my close friends and family, am setting up a freelance business where I can maintain my identity, and will be on hormones and laser very soon. I can forge my way and fight for my own rights, but that doesn't really do anything for crossdressers. We may all fall under the transgender umbrella, but we have very different issues. The man in a dress and fetishism stigmas are very strong, and they'll only go away when crossdressers start making themselves known. Instead of being a very weird minority in the population, they'll be numerous enough to where people won't care. At least they will if crossdressers are willing to fight for that. I see a lot of speculative "wouldn't it be great if" type of posts, and they sort of sum up the slow process. There are a good number of girls on this board who do go out and are known in the public, there just needs to be more of them to really make their case and their situation better.

A lot of us do not overlap, regardless of what we like to think. We should definitely help each other through shared experiences and advice, but a lot of our aims are not going to gel together. The spectrum is very large indeed. Every category needs representation, otherwise we'll have full rights for transsexuals but still be in the stone age when it comes to men exploring crossdressing.

[PaulaQ]

That's going way too far, in my opinion. I did not become trans as a "cause"; I am trans for myself. Do you really think that I ought be demanding my mother to accept my being trans on the basis that I would be Betraying The Cause if I took the soft approach with her ? Is there a trans fund of some kind that I can draw upon in compensation for loss of work when news of my transition goes to every continent and subcontinent (yes, I have been consulted by people in Antarctic) with me posting "I'm trans and you are going to like it!"? Is making waves for The Trans Cause absolutely positively definitely the best way to help?


None of that is even remotely what I suggest.

[Lucy_Bella]

I wish there were more people on this thread that would accept the "greater T world" and it's plight..Unfortunately,there is more support for sexual and gender identity laws from the general population then there is from members here! It isn't a "die in the ditch" or wave the flag support that I speak of..I merely asked if people here actually support human rights as it relates to "T"...

Ever thought that many here ( including the lurkers ) do not yet accept themselves or for that matter even understand why or what drives them cding?

As a member of this site for many years I have yet seen the logic of funneling ever aspect of Cding into one group. Especially a group that denies one another's existence .. The key is support and we can only get that by being an open community maybe through listening first and then understanding or accepting each other after..Then and only then can we be funneled as one group..I support human rights everyone has a right to express themselves how they deemed fit causing no harm to others..

[sandra-leigh]

None of that is even remotely what I suggest.

It might not have been what you intended to suggest, but suggest it you did. Look at your sentence structure: "If you are not comfortable" doing any of a number of things "then you are part of the problem". So how does one avoid being "part of the problem"? As you phrased it in terms of our actions and our feelings and not the actions or feelings of those we interact with, then in order to avoid being "part of the problem" we must "feel comfortable" doing all of the things you list. Now it happens that at the moment I do not feel comfortable about my mother's opposition to me being trans. How do I change that for the sake of not "being part of the problem" ? Am I expected to cease to care about how my mother treats me? If so, if you are advocating that we stop paying attention to whether we are treated badly or not, then it would follow that you are advocating that there is no external problem, and any "problem" is only in our own internal reactions. But that viewpoint is clearly at odds with the rest of what you have written, so it seems an unlikely interpretation.

So where have we arrived in the thought process? My mother is opposed to me being trans, and to avoid being part of the problem I should care about that, and to avoid being part of the problem I need to internally feel comfortable visiting her and interacting with her where I currently do not, and to avoid being part of the problem the sensitive "negotiated settlement" approach is not acceptable. What is left, other than ordering her to stop opposing my (or anyone) being trans? And as I would be doing that to avoid "being part of the problem", I would be doing that "for the cause" -- whereas left to myself I would handle it a different way that involved further discomfort on my part.

We have now reached what I wrote before, and it is all based completely on what you did in fact suggest. If you did not realize that you were suggesting this then the evidence would be suggestive that you did not think through what you were writing (a possibility that seems rather plausible to me.)

[Paula Siemen]

I support everyone to be able to lead the lifestyle they please.
I do look for common decency and appropriate conduct.

I exclude aggressive behavior towards others and interfering with children.

They are "not" lifestyles..com


I agree with Beverly.

[DebbieL]

I see the push for TRANSGENDER rights as something that is very inclusive, including everything from stay-at-home CDs and fetish dressers to post-op transsexuals.
Focus on the experiences we have shared and have in common, not the differences. We all remember growing up and seeing some of the boys being beat up as "Sissies", later as "Queers". Some of us got beat up and some of us may have even participated in the beating to make sure that we didn't get beat up. Even if we didn't start dressing until we were older, those fears were imprinted into are subconscious so deeply and so intensely that it often lead to extreme secrecy. The fear was so intense that many of us couldn't tell our wives or lovers for months or even years. Some of us have even been with our wives for decades before we told them about our dressing.

Regardless of where on the transgender scale we land, we have all experienced that intense fear of discovery, the fear of what others would think of us, fear that has often controlled our thinking and our actions. Many of us were so controlled by fear that we weren't even able to experience love because we struggled so intensely with the dishonesty. Many of us still fear rejection of our wives, children, parents, co-workers, and friends. We are so terrified that we assume the worst. That can be really hard on the self esteem and on relationships.

Many of us have struggled with our desires as well. We have tried to stop, to purge, to eliminate temptation, yet most of us have found that it's such an important part of us, that we can't give it up. Many of us fear that it will be too much for us to control. Even those who enjoy being male aren't willing to give up the possibility of looking beautiful and feminine, even if only in lingerie, and only in our own minds. We begin to confront that this is actually an important part of who we are.

These are issues that we share with each other, but they are also issues that are shared with others in the LGBT community as well.

[Chickhe]

I support the rights of everyone. TG included and even other groups I don't know much about.... I see no advantage to anyone by limiting what one individual can do compared to another. If you are asking about specific TG rights...yes, because as a minority that has been discriminated against extra protection is needed.

[Tracii G]

Another reason to try and get a fairness clause in your local and state laws so all in the spectrum get treated fairly.
My city has it and it works I can go and do what I want dressed as I want and not be treated any different under the law.
Our police have been trained to follow the law concerning TG/CD gay, lesbian whatever.
We have even had police talk at out trans meetings a few times.
It up to you as trans folk to speak up and be heard in your area and get ordinances/laws in place for your own benefit/protection under the law.

Don't sit back and piss and moan do something about it.

[PaulaQ]

@sandra-leigh

I wasn't speaking about TS individuals. Or your mother. All we can do about family members is try to improve understanding of us all. Presumably you are doing all you can by living your life as yourself.

[Michelle789]

I think we can start by eliminating three practices that I see on this forum that have nearly driven some of us to suicide.

1. It's okay to disagree, but we shouldn't mis-gender someone, nor tell them that we don't feel sorry for you because you're a privileged white male, or tell you that you're not entitled to certain viewpoints just because you're a white male or grew up with male privilege, when in fact you're a MTF TS who happened to grow up with male privilege, or even a MTF CD who grew up with male privilege and is sick and tired of being male.

2. While engaging in fantasy about transition can be dangerous, we should never mis-gender someone, nor tell them that you're not a TS just because you're married or engaged in masturbatory cross-dressing or happen to have doubts about being trans, when in fact you're a MTF TS who happened to shove down your gender issues for decades because society told you that you are male and a freak for feeling like you're really a female.

3. While reality does happen and it bites, we shouldn't mis-gender someone, nor tell them that you're "Pollyanna" and being blind to reality, because we already face so much lack of support by the outside world that the last thing we need is lack of support from within our own community.

I would like to declare December 9 National Day of Rememberance of Suicides Caused from within the Trans Community.

If we're going to get equal rights within the world at large, we should stay united within our own community and be careful not to engage in practices that alienate members of our own community.

If you think there's lots of Pollyanna in this, then maybe you need to go get a life :battingeyelashes:

[Lorileah]

If you are T.G. you are not crossdressing per se. You are dressing the gender you are suppose to be representing ,Yes? No...if you are saying that TG is only TS you are not understanding the definition that is used in this forum for TG

try to look at things in different angles once in a while ..

I see your angle very plain. You are drawing a line that says if you ain't _________you ain't part of the group. Elitist and narrow. I believe we have debated this before. You are saying that only TSs have a dog in the fight and that any other gender variant doesn't (and you are doing it using the argument that TG isn't an umbrella term). If you dress in any manner that is opposite of the sex you are born you are under the TG umbrella. So the OP used the term as generally accepted in most areas. Those who are adamant that the TG is only TS make her argument more narrow than she meant. By your redefining the "T" to only include TSs you are limiting the rights of those who are just gender variant

[Millie.Graham]

I have been pondering this question all day.

Do I support TG rights as an activist. No. It is highly unlikely you will ever find me on a march or some other large public forum. Not because of fear of judgement or being outed, but because that is not what I seek in life. To me, in my experience, "activism" is a negative thing. I have only ever seen it used to force one groups opinion on another. With the activist's goal being the only acceptable form of tolerance is full acceptance of the activist agenda. To me acceptance and tolerance are not the same. To me acceptance is that I am in agreement with a subject. Tolerance is I am approve, I may disapprove, of a subject, but you are free to hold your view and I am free to hold my view and I am going to let you go about your business and I am going to go about mine.

I have long history of being a bit of an independent person. I don't seek people's acceptance on much of anything. I just go through life minding my own business and when it comes to cross dressing I am seeking the same thing, just to be tolerated and left alone to enjoy my own little world. tolerance...

Now in a private setting with people I know at a personal or professional level. Yes I support TG rights and more. I don't approve of people being belittled and or mocked regardless of whether regardless of their gender (id), race, ethnicity, height, weight, ... you get the picture. In that setting, I will usually attempt to challenge what they are doing.

I guess to sum all my rambling up.

I try to lead my life and treat others as I wish to be treated. I try not to judge others, less I be judged myself. I just enjoy watching life and all the many people that pass in and out of it. Some times it raises an eye brow, some times a smile. Each person has their own story on how they got to where they are. I didn't live it, and I am not the one to judge it.

PS: I used a lot of "you"s above, please know that isn't directed at anybody in particular, it just a "you" as in the world at large.

-Millie

[Lucy_Bella]

...Have you chosen to support the advancement of Transgender rights since you are telling us here on the forum how important gender expression is for you? Replies are welcome from "all sides" of this forum!

Lorileah.

Please stop the finger pointing and I would appreciate it if you would ..

A. Stop twisting my post around by re wording them to fit your opinion..

B. Let off of me, sorry we don't see eye to eye on everything but I deal with it why cant you?

C. I follow the rules of this forum why do you take my post so personal ?

If you look at the O.P. you will see this " how important gender expression is for you" .. My suggestion was I have no gender expression had nothing to do with the TG spectrum as a whole thank you very much " no line was drawn"..

Next you will see this " Replies are welcome from "all sides" of this forum!" it appears to me you are the only one who has a issue with my harmless post when it's not even your post..

What gives?

[Anna H]

3. While reality does happen and it bites, we shouldn't mis-gender someone, nor tell them that you're "Pollyanna" and being blind to reality, because we already face so much lack of support by the outside world that the last thing we need is lack of support from within our own community.

If you think there's lots of Pollyanna in this, then maybe you need to go get a life :battingeyelashes:

Thanks Michelle,

Maybe you're right. I think I will go get myself a life. I'll be able to have an opinion without
remarks like this one.

It's been really nice ladies. I wish you all the best!

~Kate has moved on~

[Michelle789]

Kate, I wasn't referring to your comment. My "Pollyanna" comment was referring to another thread where someone called someone else "Pollyanna" just for trying to be supportive.

[ReineD]

Aye, aye, aye, this thread is giving me a headache!

People are arguing because the message sent in many of the posts is not the same as the message received by some of the readers! It's as if people are speaking in different languages. So how are people supposed to communicate effectively when this happens?

Here's a little something on the theory of communication and the types of very common noise that can cause the message sent to morph by the time it is received by someone else:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_communication

Back to the topic:

In one of the tangents here, there's a dispute over the word "transgender". It's such an ambiguous word … a lot of people take it to mean an umbrella term for anyone who is not cis-gender. The media describes transsexuals as transgenders, and so a lot of people take it the two are the same. Some crossdressers refer to themselves as TGs, as to some transsexuals! Ouch!

And then there's the difference between the CDs who dress for recreational purposes vs. those who have an internal need to express femininity. I do understand why the recreational CDs wouldn't need any of the rights expressed in the OP. They aren't interested in presenting as women or in a feminine manner in public! Still, surely these CDs would not deny these rights to others? They might still speak up when they witness any bias emanating from others?

And finally, there's the idea that if every CDer (gender variant, bigender, genderqueer, etc) were to be out and proud, then there would be enough of them out in the public to get the rest of society used to the idea. The problem with this theory is a question of numbers. Even if all the CDers who dress out of a need to express inner femininity were out, there still would not be enough to make any difference! We're talking about maybe 1%-3% of the population? Maybe less, keeping in mind that these are NOT the CDers who dress for recreational purposes which, in my opinion, form the majority of CDers … even if they are not members here (have a quick look at all the CD recreational sites out there). Also, I think it's a mistake to believe that the inner-femininity CDers should risk everything to be out and proud. First, the world is not ready to even come close to comprehending this aspect of non-binary gender and secondly, they don't feel the need to live full time as women. If they did then I'm sure they would, just like any TS. Besides - can't someone be supportive of TG rights without jeopardizing their jobs and families if they do not want to be full time?

Back to the OP … do I support TG rights? Yes I do ... for the transsexuals and the gender variants who do wish to be out. But I also respect those who, for a multitude of valid reasons, wish to remain under the radar. But this doesn't preclude them from being supportive in ways they can be, like signing petitions or "liking" supportive TG messages on facebook. :)

[Valerie]

Of course I support TG rights and have expressed this very publicly more than once, but I am wary of then moving on to affirm that only those people who do have the right to dress... People have enough repressions, restrictions, and fears as it is, to add a new one... All are welcome!

[sometimes_miss]

Well, Rogina, of course I support transgender rights. But do I do it the same way that you do? We don't know. You're very vague about what you want to know. So, give us a numbered list of the ways you consider acceptable ways of supporting transgender rights and then we can each tell you, in detail, whether we do that particular activity or not. Because without being specific, all I can guess is: That you want to know how many of us are 'out', how many of us actively petition the public and public officials for active laws to guarantee equal treatment for all transgendered folks no matter how bizarre our public behavior may be, how many of us march in parades to support other groups of tg people, do we write a letter a day to an elected official to get insurance to cover srs, do we go door to door to get petitions signed for that, well the list can go on and on. So, Rogina, exactly what is it that you want to know that we do?

[PaulaQ]

Even if all the CDers who dress out of a need to express inner femininity were out, there still would not be enough to make any difference! We're talking about maybe 1%-3% of the population?

Never mind. The 0.3% of us who are TS got this.
edit: Also, I thought the various folks along the spectrum might share common ground, but I'm informed that we do not, so I stand corrected.

[Lucy_Bella]

My explanation .

There has been a ongoing movement these past several years started by doctors in the field of this very subject for T.G. rights.. Although not accepted by the Transgender Community the DMS-5 has ..

If you have been doing any research online lately you will start seeing urls/sites with this as a header TV/TG more often as the professional side has deemed it ..

Why?

Because the DMS has found a need for certain rights on some patients that have GID to live a safer and less stressful life ( yes Dr's are fighting for rights for these patents ) But in order to justify the needs for these patents those with TV could not be included for various and sometimes obvious reasons..

Give me sometime I will provide the links and data to back this statement ..The last I heard was our own community was derailing this because of the separation of the TG umbrella..

Feel free to comment or do research on your own ...

I wasn't being mean in anyway by suggesting this separation because I understand there are people who do need these rights and if a simple term used as a umbrella is the only thing in the way of these rights I am all for removing it..

Here is one..http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/08/21/721441/apa-issues-position-statements-supporting-transgender-care-and-civil-rights/

[Rogina B]

If they did then I'm sure they would, just like any TS. Besides - can't someone be supportive of TG rights without jeopardizing their jobs and families if they do not want to be full time?

Back to the OP … do I support TG rights? Yes I do ... for the transsexuals and the gender variants who do wish to be out. But I also respect those who, for a multitude of valid reasons, wish to remain under the radar. But this doesn't preclude them from being supportive in ways they can be, like signing petitions or "liking" supportive TG messages on facebook. :)
Lexi,THAT is about all I was looking for! But in addition,I think that people should be supportive of local and national watchdog and advocate groups,no matter where they themselves THINK they stand on the "T spectrum"..More than one "lifelong closeted" member here now wants to pee at the coffee shop!

[GaleWarning]

Labels cause so much grief!
Let's just recognize each other as human beings, shall we?
Human rights, not any other rights for special interest groups.

[Zylia]

Lucy, while I agree that maybe not every guy in a dress belongs under the same transgender umbrella as those with an 'actual' gender identity disorder, it's kind of hard to make that distinction, especially when it comes to rights and politics. In many cases, it's all or nothing without resorting to gesture politics. When talking about transgender restroom politics, some people may not like to have these 'sexual deviant' fetishistic cross-dressers in our ladies' restrooms, but the only way you can prevent that is to lay the burden of proof upon the transgender individuals.

Still, people talk about cross-dressers unwilling to support the 'transgender cause' that mainly benefits transsexual individuals on a day to day basis (correct me if i'm wrong), but how much support do those who identify as TS actually want from cross-dressers in the first place? With a few notable exceptions, people in the transsexual section here and elsewhere aren't too positive about cross-dressers in general, so maybe we should talk about mutual respect and mutual support first before we start talking about support in general. I guess if I have to support transgender rights, I should do it as a human being and better hide my cross-dressing identity.

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . what tangential responses for such a simple question on supporting rights. This is why I don't like labels it gets too militant sometimes. Can't we all just agree that rights (human rights) regardless of race, gender, gender expression or any other category you may think of, are something that should be safeguarded. The minute you try to pigeon hole a category, you loose sight of the raison d'etre, treating people with respect irrespective of differences.

Hugs

Isha

[Zylia]

You're 100% correct Isha. What I try to convey is that if I have to support transgender rights because we're somehow in this together as the 'transgender community', I don't want to have the feeling I'm going to be thrown under the bus whenever that's more convenient. The esoteric "you wouldn't know"and "trannier than thou" attitudes make specifically supporting transgenderism a tough sell.

[natcrys]

One thing I've learned from this thread is that we all need to work on our communication! :p

But I'm still of the opinion... if you're not doing anything to at least make a difference .. I don't want to hear those complaints.

I'm not fully out yet... but all of my friends know.. and they've told me that because of me, they have a better understanding of (my way of) crossdressing and what it means in my life. That has made them very supportive and they've also told me that during their lunch breaks and other conversations.. they correct their e.g. co-workers if they have any misconceptions of crossdressers.

And like it is said in the ancient writings: "knowing is half the battle!" :D

[Stephanie Julianna]

How could I not?

[JenniferYager]

I like how Isha said it...she took what I was thinking and put it in three sentences!

[PaulaQ]

What I try to convey is that if I have to support transgender rights because we're somehow in this together as the 'transgender community', I don't want to have the feeling I'm going to be thrown under the bus whenever that's more convenient. The esoteric "you wouldn't know"and "trannier than thou" attitudes make specifically supporting transgenderism a tough sell.

I hope that any of my remarks either in this thread or prior threads have never conveyed a "trannier than thou" attitude. I see CDs and other members of the spectrum as having a lot of issues in common with my own struggles as a transsexual.

I read the threads here expressing the awful fears of life in the closet as a CD. I know those feelings well because I shared them too. I read stories of those with spouses who struggle or simply cannot accept them, and I know their pain, for I've dealt with this with my own wife. I understand the feelings of shame, courtesy of a world that hates us - I've had those feelings.

I know not every CD wants to be out in public, but my God, even if this is something you choose to do only in private, wouldn't it be great if you didn't have to fear discovery?

I have nothing but respect and love for the members of this forum who identify as CD, or any other label. If I can help you in any way while dealing with my own struggles, please know that I will.

To me, support implies action, even if it is quiet behind the scenes action. Not everyone needs to be a hero, but almost everyone can do something.

By the way - one of the simplest things you can do to support transgender rights is to support and love yourselves. I see so many here post about feeling shame, or guilt, or hiding to put their families first. There is a lot of self hatred implicit in so many posts on this forum. Love yourselves ladies, you are all beautiful, worthwhile, and not one iota of your CDing is your fault.

You have a right to exist, despite what your wife, neighbors, or boss might think.

[Tina_gm]

I want to apologize if I came off harsh sounding and if I insulted anyone. My reaction when I 1st started reading was a call to arms kinda thing. That we should be out in the public and making a visible and vocal difference. That is great for those who feel the need, for those who need to express themselves on a full time basis, for those who are aligning themselves in the proper gender they feel internally all the time. For me though, I have many other issues at stake, a life I want to live, and its responsibilities that come with it. For me to be out and proud, would alter that life dramatically. Yes, I sacrifice some of my internal femininity for the big picture of my life that I have. It is my decision to not alter it, or end what I have. For some, that may not be a decision they can make, for others, they feel it worth altering their lives or creating a life that puts their gender variance 1st. It is a decision that everyone needs to make, what do they prioritize. My 1st priority is not my gender variance. I will always be supportive of any TG rights, and never throw anyone under a bus. I just have decided to keep my gender variance and my expression private.

[Wanna be Heather]

Definitly support it. Why not and why judge. As a CD, i dearm of becoming TG. It is who we are

[5150 Girl]

Do you mean fiscally? Right now, I can't even support myself! However, I feel every time I step outside dressed, I try to be friendly, well/appropriately dressed, and willing to properly educate should the opportunity arise. So if by trying to present myself as a "brand ambassador" if you will,,,, one calls that support, then yes, I support the cause all the time.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Wow, what a thread! To answer the original question, in general, yes. Not with some of the laws that have been passed, though.I have a real hard time understanding the new CA law allowing transgender students to play sports for the gender they express. Not because I don't think true transgender (e.g., those who truly identify as the opposite gender) shouldn't be allowed to play as the gender they identify with), but because the definition is too open ended and I frankly worry that it will hurt young girls ability to play. Before you think it won't happen, it already has in a Southern CA high school, and I'm sorry but as an avid Title IX supporter I don't think this is right. If students are truly in the process of transforming, I can support it. But until then I do see inherent physical advantages that shouldn't exist. But, whether a transgender kid should be allowed to dress as they wish at a school? Sure I support that.
We've been through the TG definition so many times that I don't care to go through it again. We're never going to agree on one definition because we all see the issue from our own eyes and its difficult understanding why those on the other side disagree so vehemently.

[chelyann]

how simple is to say yes or no !!!!! for me --- YES [ SEE ]

[julia marie]

I haven't read every line of every post in this thread, so I'm sorry if someone else already took this position. I balk at questions like this because it assumes that everything proposed under the banner (in this case transgender rights, in other cases tax cuts, gun control, laws about undocumented aliens, the Democratic or Republic party platform, etc.) is good. These things get too broad, and people really need to look at the individual proposals that might be categorized under one of these banners. Take each proposal on its own merits. I'm sure I would support (at least by supporting certain candidates) most of the proposed laws that would fall under "transgender rights", but not blindly. Someone mentioned the California law about boys playing on girls' sports teams. That would be fine for the boys who are dealing with gender issues, but I can't support the idea of just any boy getting cut by the boy's soccer team then going to play for the girls' team just because he might be bigger and faster than the girls. Or, a boy who gets cut/benched in football going to play girls' field hockey. Similarly, I support many gay rights proposals, but those groups that advocate man-boy sexual activity? Nope, and I know those groups don't speak for the gay community at large.

[mechamoose]

Ok.. how about Human Rights? Last time I checked most of us are human :)

- MM

[devida]

Or perhaps to make it even more specific than MM, should transgender people have the same rights as a white heterosexual adult male? So white heterosexual males do not have laws protecting them against discrimination which I know is a thorn in the side of the men's rights movement, but, um, white heterosexual males don't actually need anti discimination protections because they write the laws and, generally, have the power to oppress, should they choose to use it. The idea that a transgender person has this power is ludicrous. So, should transgender people have provisions in the law that safeguards them against discrimination? In, for example, the way that women, people of color, people with disabilities and members of religious minorities have these rights? I am not asking those of you who have already agreed with transgender people having these rights. I am asking the members of this board who think it is just a step too far to give cross dressers and other people generally considered to be under the transgender umbrella the rights that all these other groups have been given. And if you really believe that these rights should not be extended to cross dressers and other people generally thought to be transgender, can you please explain to me why you would want to carve out an exception for us?

[mechamoose]

Davidia darling..

I'm a white (pansexual) male. I know that the WHM is the standard.

I think that we should all have that level of acceptance. People are people. It shouldn't fracking matter if I'm wearing heels or lumberjack boots.

I don't want an exception. I want a level playing field.

<3

- MM

[Eryn]

...I have a real hard time understanding the new CA law allowing transgender students to play sports for the gender they express. Not because I don't think true transgender (e.g., those who truly identify as the opposite gender) shouldn't be allowed to play as the gender they identify with), but because the definition is too open ended and I frankly worry that it will hurt young girls ability to play....

What about a short boy's desire to play basketball? He has just as much right to participate in an athletic program as any student yet he would be excluded from the boys' basketball team because his genetics rendered him short and excluded from the girls' team because his genetics include a Y chromosome. Girls, OTOH, have the right to participate in boys' athletic teams. This is an obvious inequity.

With barriers having been knocked down for females perhaps it is time to knock them down for males as well. We should end gender segregation of athletic teams and encourage everyone to participate by instituting non-gendered teams for various physical ability levels.

[Jacqueline Winona]

What about a short boy's desire to play basketball? He has just as much right to participate in an athletic program as any student yet he would be excluded from the boys' basketball team because his genetics rendered him short and excluded from the girls' team because his genetics include a Y chromosome. Girls, OTOH, have the right to participate in boys' athletic teams. This is an obvious inequity.

With barriers having been knocked down for females perhaps it is time to knock them down for males as well. We should end gender segregation of athletic teams and encourage everyone to participate by instituting non-gendered teams for various physical ability levels.

Eryn, VERY few girls play on boys teams after the age of 9. At 13 and over, its really rare. And height has never excluded anybody from any sports team. Isaiah Thomas might be 5'7", and he starts in the NBA. Dustin Pedroia is an MVP candidate in baseball every year, and he is the same height. Kim Mulkey started for a national champion basketball team at 5'2", etc. I was a short kid and could play any sport I wanted. Your analogy is just not the same thing. Boys do have more muscle mass, are generally stronger and faster, and allowing them to compete on a girls team is taking a sport away from a girl. Allowing laws like this hurt TG rights in my opinion, as they alienate people (mostly women) who see their daughters getting less opportunity to compete. It's wrong in my book, unless the TG girl is truly transitioning and is taking medications that will affect strength.

[LoriFlores]

I'm a very strong supporter of many rights including transgender rights.

One of my favorite groups: http://transequality.org/

[Eryn]

Eryn, VERY few girls play on boys teams after the age of 9. At 13 and over, its really rare....

And, even in California where equal athletic opportunities are law, VERY few genetic boys play on girls' teams, it's even more rare.


...And height has never excluded anybody from any sports team.
That is simply not true. We both know that physical characteristics exclude thousands of students from playing various sports every year and citing a few extraordinary individuals does not change that. Every student, of either gender, who "didn't make the team" is an example.

Every student who desires to do so should have the opportunity to participate in sports at the level that matches their ability. The current system sets up needless artificial barriers and this larger injustice particularly affects transgender individuals.

[Jacqueline Winona]

And, even in California where equal athletic opportunities are law, VERY few genetic boys play on girls' teams, it's even more rare.


That is simply not true. We both know that physical characteristics exclude thousands of students from playing various sports every year and citing a few extraordinary individuals does not change that. Every student, of either gender, who "didn't make the team" is an example.

Every student who desires to do so should have the opportunity to participate in sports at the level that matches their ability. The current system sets up needless artificial barriers and this larger injustice particularly affects transgender individuals.

Eryn, I like you, respect you a ton,so please don't take this personally, but the notion that height excludes anyone who has the desire is nonsense. Students don't make teams because they don't have the ability. Height helps, but is far from the only factor. Locally, three kids who play on baseball teams and have earned National Letters of Intent are 5'5" or shorter. Shoot, a girl I know very well played high school volleyball and is 5'3" at best. High school football has hundreds of examples of kids who aren't tall who can play the game.
And of course there are very few boys playing on girls teams, this just became law on January 1.
Lastly, there are plenty of opportunities for kids to play in rec level sports where their ability matches their participation. CSD's across the state offer plenty of opportunities. I see no good reason to take opportunities away from girls to play competitively (and your proposal would, as the sheer number of competitive boys would overwhelm the abilities of girls of the same age) to include everyone. More importantly, I asked several young female athletes tonight how they would feel having boys on their team if they could play on the boys and absolutely none thought this was a good thing.

[Eryn]

I cited height as an example and you chose to focus on it, but there are many other characteristics the deny individual students access to sports.

There are some who fear that allowing TG individuals to compete as their desired gender will send boys flocking into girls' sports.

These fears have as much substance as those who said that allowing TG individuals to use women's restrooms would flood the women's rooms with perverts.

It didn't happen with the restrooms and it won't happen with sports.

[Jacqueline Winona]

I cited height as an example and you chose to focus on it, but there are many other characteristics the deny individual students access to sports.

There are some who fear that allowing TG individuals to compete as their desired gender will send boys flocking into girls' sports.

These fears have as much substance as those who said that allowing TG individuals to use women's restrooms would flood the women's rooms with perverts.

It didn't happen with the restrooms and it won't happen with sports.


Sorry you feel that way, I was just responding to the analogy presented, I don't know what else I could have discussed.
The bathrooom argument, we've been through this one and I'll admit this is a tougher issue but again I don't see how it applies. Does using a bathroom prevent a female from using an adjacent stall? Don't see that. Uncomfortable to some, but outright preventing a female from using it, ever? No. But, allowing genetic boys to play on a girls team does take an opportunity away from a girl.
HS sports only last a few years, and almost every team has roster limits. A spot on the team will be taken away from a genetic female if a genetic male is on a girl's team. In my mind, until HRT is underway, it is simply wrong to allow otherwise genetic males to play a competitive sport on a girl's team. Using HRT as the standard is much more fair to apply then the subjective standard our legislature picked.
We may never agree on this, but know that I do respect your opinion.

[Zylia]

Irene Wüst is a Dutch (female) speed skater. With eight olympic medals and many other successes, she is a great sportswoman and the single most successful Dutch Olympian of all time. This year in Sochi, she won five medals including two gold medals. However, with all other things equal, if she had to compete against the men in a single league, she would have won none. Actually, on distances like the 1000, 1500 and 5000 meter, all men (all 40 of them) were faster than the fastest woman, not because women can't train because they have to make sandwiches and take care of the kids, but simply because of raw physicality. If you somehow were to create two 'mixed' leagues out of some false sense of equality, you would get an all male super league and probably a secondary league dominated by men.

I'm a defender of gender equality, anyone who read this week's thread about that knows that, but I'm not so sure how removing the gender division in sports (or at least in many sports) is going to give sportswomen equal chances. One thing that needs to be fixed is the attention level for women's sports leagues. Transgenderism in sports is a tough nut to crack though, probably a discussion worth its own thread.

[Launa]

I'm not out of the closet to "my male world" but I do go out in public when I can to stores, restaurants, venues etc.. Have I tried to go in behind the scenes in our community? Yes I have.

Could I do more? Yes, I certainly could.

Would I sign a government petition to help protect TG rights? Yes, within seconds I would sign it if we had one come around.

[flatlander_48]

I do support rights of Transgenders....This is why I find it important ( with all due respect to the TG spectrum) that it separates it's self from the cross dressing umbrella.. I say this not to sound mean, not to sound above any spectrum ( because that's far from the truth) ..I say it to be fair to people with gender identities and the dire need for their own rights to function freely and unharmed is a bias society ..

I think it has to broader than that as there is strength in numbers. Also, there are laws in many places addressing the issues of having your identification documents not match your presentation. I think it is important that we all move forward together.

[Amanda M]

Interesting thread here. I have just been wondering what rights am I, as a cross dresser, missing out on. Nobody can tell me what to wear or when to wear it, where I may or may not go or do en femme or drab. I just have to be prepared to take the reponsibility for my actions - or am I missing something?

[Jenny Doolittle]

Hi Rogina,

Yes is the answer in a nut shell, I support The HRC in both monetary contributions as well as attending some of their events. They are a very political organization that is working to pass same sex marriage laws across the country, but they also support TG rights as well. I also have written congressman and senators regarding pending legislation that would support similar LBGT positions.

On other fronts I have been vocal in discussions regarding transgender people supporting their right to be different. I believe, if no one stands up and announces their position, how in the world do we expect to be treated with out bias.
I hope everyone can be in a position and have the courage to support their own feelings.

[Lucy_Bella]

Okay so I guess the question is how? How do you feel one should support rights of the T community..

Where do you start on what rights that are needing support? Should all of the T community have the right to express individual gender without bias consequences?

Yes if done properly and with respect to the individuals gender spectrum....But how do you go about doing that ? Because as a whole the communities gender spectrum is splattered all over the place..Some are full time some are intermittent and go back and forth and some stay at the gender matching biological sex.. Should everyone be forced out of the closet and present ? Should those who just wanna keep it private somehow unwillingly violate these new rights.. Could it be seen as a poke to those who openly express that some who do dress have no desire to be full time?

Or should these rights be more about educating rather than forcing rights that already exist.. Educating that there is a whole spectrum of individuals with various levels of needs.. Like the closet cder who is caught will that person get a better understanding through education? I would think so ..

[Lorileah]

Interesting thread here. I have just been wondering what rights am I, as a cross dresser, missing out on.

The right to retain your job if you are "outed", the right to get a job and wear what you like (within the job's parameters). the right to use public facilities while you are dressed, the right to serve in the military and not have to hide, the right to go to any business that is covered under the Equal Rights amendment (yes they can refuse you service based on your appearance. They cannot based on race, ethnicity, color or gender). The right to not be harassed by law enforcement in certain jurisdictions. Just a few. Many "rights" are implied in most areas of the country but there are places where you would still be detained because of how you look or not have the benefit of law enforcement because of how you dress. There may be laws on the books specifically aimed at TGs (although usually not enforced). Here in Colorado a TG was denied health care. You may be required to divorce your spouse if you transition (but your question was on CD...so you may not care about that). You may be denied government documents (again a TS issue but we should be in the same boat rowing together). You could lose custody of your child.

[LoriFlores]

+1 for everything Lorileah just said!!

[NoraTV]

Gender should be totally irrelevant when it comes to rights, whether legal or social.

[Stephanie47]

The State of Washington tends to be more protective of "rights" than the federal constitution. Washington State law protects transgenders, gays and lesbians. It prohibits discrimination on gays and lesbians and transgenders, as well as discrimination based on perception. The laws allow for gender expression, and, that includes plain vanilla cross dressers. Basically, it comes down to allowing everyone to live their lives with equal legal protections. Gays, lesbians and transgenders fall under the enhanced protection of "hate crime" legislation.

Of course, legal protection does not force others to accept gays, lesbians, and transgenders. And, on occasion there are issues that arise with MtF transgenders wanting to use a woman's locker room that is shared with minor children. Or, when a teacher returns from summer vacation presenting as the opposite sex.

Frankly, relocate to Washington State.

[FemPossible]

The right to retain your job if you are "outed", the right to get a job and wear what you like (within the job's parameters).

This is a tricky one. People are already being told not to wear their hair in a certain way so I'm not so sure anyone can win as far as a dress code is concerned.


the right to use public facilities while you are dressed

This just applies to cross-dressers, right?


the right to serve in the military and not have to hide

Can you add a little detail to this one?

[devida]

FemPossible asks for a little more detail on transgender rights and the military. In the USA armed services Don't Ask Don't Tell, the particularly noxious formulation of LGBT lack of rights in the military that oppressed us for years, has been three quarters struck down. You can serve proudly and openly as gay, lesbian or bisexual, though depending on where you are you may find it better not to be too open, especially given the stunning incidence of rape recently revealed. But if you are transgender, you cannot serve. In a fig leaf, you can get benefits, so maybe things will change. Interestingly if you get surgical gender reassignment surgery while on furlough you will be required to continue your contracted military career in your new gender. And I would note that if you cross dress you will be considered to be transgender.

In all fairness the US armed services are just going along with DSM5, the diagnostic manual of psychological disorders which is very widely used by many institutions. There cross dressing is considered a disorder, a paraphilia - transvestic disorder. Again, the American Psychological Association is in some turmoil over all transgender issues including cross dressing. Many psychologists don't consider being trans or cross dressing disordered unless it is cause life disturbing anxiety. The military is probably just playing it safe. But this is a very clear case of the transgender population experiencing a discrimination that the rest of the LGBT umbrella has federal guarantees against experiencing.

Hate crimes against transgender (or perceived transgender) populations are another. In many states there is no legislation protecting transgender people.

As far as your statement FemPossible about hair. It really is not tricky at all. Any company can have a dress policy. As you know many require uniforms. Nobody is going to take away the right of companies to make their employees look ridiculous. All transgender rights asks for is that everyone be treated equally badly, and that exceptions not be made on the basis of gender identity or expression.

[PaulaQ]

Transgender individuals are four times more likely to serve in the military than cisgender individuals.

I've had friends who hid their CDing in the military - their lives were awful.

[Rogina B]

Gender should be totally irrelevant when it comes to rights, whether legal or social.

But it is not! And it isn't a "given"!!! So,equality means "equal opportunity for all"..Why is it so hard for people to understand that it presently isn't usually there?

[Rogina B]

Equality means the "same opportunity for all". We agree that labels are often meant in harm and discrimination in opportunity can be devastating. Those that choose to live out their life in their own gender must face this *hitstorm,because there is no running from it. There is no changing their clothes or their name back,nor putting the boobies back in the box! They are committed..just like the" ham and eggs story"The chicken is involved,BUT THE PIG IS COMMITTED! Housing and employment discrimination is real,as others have pointed out here. By helping end legal discrimination for the entire LGBT community,you are really helping your self,no matter where you fall on the spectrum,you are still there. Please do what it takes to sign on your support of Trans rights..it IS something that you CAN relate to.Thanks,Rogina

[Lucy_Bella]

But it is not! And it isn't a "given"!!! So,equality means "equal opportunity for all"..Why is it so hard for people to understand that it presently isn't usually there?

Because gender is a socially constructed concept. It is taught to us from the day we are born to be this way..When it is not and
people need to understand that biological sex and gender are different ..

[Ann Thomas]

I've not had time to read the thread, only the initial post. So, my post is only in answer to that.

Yes, I actively support Transgender rights.

I avoid doing business with companies that are openly LGBT phobic. Even if they have issued apologies after being outed, I tend to stay away from them.

I stay away from the state of Arizona (it's the state right next to mine), and that includes taking aircraft flights that might layover or change planes in that state. I do that since they as a state are too anti-LGBT in their parade of bills in recent history.

I write letters to people who support LGBT causes, encouraging them.

I have been writing letters recently to those opposing LGBT rights in any way. When I do, I include as much science as is reasonable, while trying not to bash their religion if possible. However I do make it clear that my creator made me this way - and that's pretty easily proven as both my dad was trans and my son is trans, and we hid it from each other most of our lives.

I support same sex marriage, as that ultimately can affect many of us that are born one gender, and change that to validate our feelings. We may be attracted to what then becomes the same gender as we have become, so therefore in the eyes of the law, it's a same sex marriage. We do not need to have our rights violated: to reduced income taxes; both parents listed on a child's birth certificate; both spouses having parental rights; and being able to accompany our spouses into the emergency room at the hospital. I enjoyed those rights as a married man when young, and those rights should not be abridged just because I have to change gender later in life.

I work at a blue collar union job, so I'm surrounded by people of all political backgrounds, and they are vocal. What I've had to do is reason with them and show them LGBT people are not evil, nor do I have an agenda that would deprive them of their rights. I've had to show some of them on a daily basis that what they hear on right wing radio and tv broadcasts is not always true. I try to show them that what anyone hears on any radio or tv show is advertising dollar driven, so people will say whatever it takes to get viewers or listeners. (My dad was on the editorial board of a major daily newspaper back in the 1960's and explained to me in detail how media works. He was also a closet CD.)

I've worked with our union president (we're part of AFL-CIO) on including transgender rights protecting verbiage in our union contracts here in Southern California. We are one of the first unions nationwide to have done so. Currently I'm the only transgender member in our local union, so it's been both an honor and a challenge to be involved at the beginning like this.

I also try to keep in touch with certain US Senators I have gotten to know over the years, and dialog with them regarding this and other issues.

So, yes, I'm active and try to do my best as an individual to do all I can behind the scenes to help us all out.

Tally ho!

Ann

[Rogina B]

You are doing a great thing Ann Carpenter! Keep it going!

[Taylor Ray]

I have always been interested in political philosophy, but I am not an "activist".

When I was in graduate school for psychology, many of the other students were critical of me for not being an activist. I struggled long and hard and considered the topic very seriously for several years.
I was finally able to accept who I was.

In my professional life I fight for the rights of all of my clients. My philosophical viewpoint advocates for every individual to be able to express their authentic selves, even if that individual has a different religion or is a member of a different political party than myself.

Every human being is a unique expression of a mysterious cosmic process that combines body, mind, and soul.

Yes!!!

[natcrys]

Lots of good stuff by Ann

Just wanted to say thanks! If a lot more people would conduct their business and actions this way.. a lot more would be accomplished, I'm sure of that! :)

[Krisi]

I support "human rights". Equal rights for everyone. No special rights for anyone. I guess that means I support transgender rights.