Labels

[Lucy_Bella]

Labels .... What is it with everyone here and being against labeled?..Good Grief we talk about equal rights and LABEL those who appose but yet try to lay one on us...

****Breaking News***** We have already been labeled ...Do you not want the correct one? Seriously what is it that is so bad about labels? So "soup cans " are labeled..So are veggies and canned meat,etc etc etc..


Really in your honest opinion ...What is it against labels? ( Just asking no need to beat me up):eek:

[Beverley Sims]

Lucy,
I support Isha in her campaign, labels are for soup cans or, something that is not easily identifiable.
We are easily identified.....

Basically there is too much thinking here about the bleedin' obvious. :)

No need to be beaten up..... Not yet anyway.

[Lucy_Bella]

But...Some of us are not so easily identified:o:o:o.... I could be a can of corn..:D

[PaulaQ]

I would think many here oppose labels because so many of us have been given really hostile, nasty, and negative ones like: "faggot", "gay boy", "tranny", "sissy", "pervert", "degenerate", "crazy", "mentally ill", etc.

This alone would make many of us suspicious of the motivations of those who'd label us.

On the other hand, I suspect some of us fear that the conclusions one might draw from applying the CORRECT label to us might not be things we are willing to face yet about ourselves.

[Michelle789]

Labels reinforce the gender binary, and the reinforce stereotypes. If only we had no labels and nothing to label, and we could all just be free to be ourselves, yet "ourselves" is a label. So can we really run away from labels?

[noeleena]

Hi.

Okay here we are The first name given you at birth is based on are you a boy or girl ,mine should have been both. not the case in 1947.now we have that label in our Country In Germany and the Govt deemed it so,

......SO...... what a lot of hassle it would have saved me one word is all i dam well needed one label .....of

an...... intersexed....... female. so yes its importaint to me and no doubt many like myself .

YES Im female and YES im different. How the hell do i explain to others WHY im different ......

Hang on. heres a ? and i know it wont be answered here Who really can say they know what its like being Like I am Unless you are , then that ? is of little value. and really who gives a dam .

Only those of us who have this LABEL know why im like this because iv done my home work and experanced Life Living with this condition makes it so much easyer to....

........ Have a life to live a life to the fullest.........

As the cat said to the tin you have a lable I just need a can opener to get inside, after that i dont need that lable.

I allso dont take myself to serous because that takes the fun out of life, so call me what you like, .... mad weird or insane or even a stroppy female ..... now wheres that can opener.

...noeleena...

[Zylia]

People are afraid of pigeonholing, negative stereotypes and all that. Like most human beings, I stereotype people all day long. Stereotypes are useful, prejudice not so much. Personally, I don't see what the problem is with awfully broad terms like 'cross-dresser' and 'transgender' and an arguably medical term like 'transsexual'.

[Charla McBee]

I've been doing a lot of research, a lot of reading in a sincere effort to figure myself out at this point. What I have so far is that I am one of those shiny silver cans hidden in a back corner, the label having long since peeled away. Of course if that unidentified can were to be brought forth into the light it might really shine.

[Marcelle]

Lucy,

I have nothing against labels per se and if you like a label applied to yourself then that is fine as well. However, I do not need someone labelling me one way or another because I am a bit more complex (as a human being) than a simple term. The problem with labels is they get too restrictive and then we start to nitpick who can and cannot belong to a labeled group (she is more TG than you so you don't belong)


Personally, I don't see what the problem is with awfully broad terms like 'cross-dresser' and 'transgender' and an arguably medical term like 'transsexual'.

As Zylia pointed out, broad labels have meaning (human, boy, girl, TG, TS) in as much as defining which group you belong to. This may help with gaining acceptance through political action (it is hard to stand-up for your rights if you don't let people know who you are). However, I don't need a label to define myself . . . I am me and I am different from you, from my neighbour, from my boss and countless millions (a one of kind - not a stereotype)


....What I have so far is that I am one of those shiny silver cans hidden in a back corner, the label having long since peeled away. Of course if that unidentified can were to be brought forth into the light it might really shine.

Charla absolutely love this. :)

Hugs

Isha

[BOBBI G.]

Personally I have many labels. I am a Human being, born American Citizen, at times weird, transgender female, now a girl striving toward womanhood. But two of my most recent labels came from my "brain squeezer", activist and advocate. These are the two that took me a while to digest. As long at labels are not insults or put downs, call me anything you care to. JUST CALL ME. I do like to interact.

Bobbi

[stephNE]

Hi Lucy,
Labeling something like a can of carrots, or potato soup is pretty obvious what the label should say.
But here it is more subjective; there are some labels that some people seem to embrace while others take serious exception to the term.
So we are probably all better off being happy without labels. Just a thought.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Lucy, Labels are also great for shipping packages.

[suchacutie]

The reason that labels run into so much trouble in this case is the complete inability for us to agree upon definitions for those labels. I believe Iam ttransgendered, and I know what I think that means, and thought my understanding was pretty generic until we had a thread where many who considered themselves crossdressers did NOT consider themselves transgendered, and the range of opinions about what transgendered meant was huge. I also feel that I'm bigendered, and a definition for that stands no chance of acceptance.

It's clear that a soup can labeled "tomato soup" will have a soup based on tomatoes, and that the variations will be subtle. Since we don't have those kinds of expectations around labels of gender, no one is willing to be saddled with a label defined by someone else.

[Nadine Spirit]

I don't really mind labels. I kind of think they are unavoidable.

However, what concerns me is the lack of common universal definitions for those labels. If we say a can has green beans in it, we can all know exactly what that is. But say someone is a cross dresser and there is not the same definitive outcome.

Ha funny, I didn't even read the post above mind until I posted. So what I should of said was, yeah what Suchacutie said.

[Majella St Gerard]

I need more than one label

[Cheryl T]

Labels are unavoidable. Language requires labels and if you disagree then try to describe anyone to someone else without them. It's not that we dislike labels, it's that we want the "correct" ones applied to us, not the derogatory ones that the uninformed use.
When I'm dressed and out and about the label I want most is Cheryl. After that if you need to define me in more detail then I would prefer TG. Unless someone knows me well they need go no further in being descriptive as they do not have the information necessary to accurately define me.

[donnalee]

I know this sounds pretty sappy (particularly coming from me), but it is true:
"Only those who you truly love and truly love you can know who you are and what's really in your heart. All else matters not." - donnalee

[LilSissyStevie]

I would think many here oppose labels because so many of us have been given really hostile, nasty, and negative ones like: "faggot", "gay boy", "tranny", "sissy", "pervert", "degenerate", "crazy", "mentally ill", etc.

Labels? That's what I call pillow talk.:heehee:

[KittyD]

Some really good points here & some really funny ones to :) For me its a BIG whatever... There just all words & names & I'm more than sure we've all been called every name under the sun!
Called me what you like, I'm sure I'll get over it :)

[Katey888]

Lucy,
I support Isha in her campaign, labels are for soup cans or, something that is not easily identifiable.
We are easily identified.....

Can't agree with this one Bev - for starters, who are you callin' 'we'? :doh:


On the other hand, I suspect some of us fear that the conclusions one might draw from applying the CORRECT label to us might not be things we are willing to face yet about ourselves.
Good point Paula - the nature of dissonance unfortunately is that however accurate you may be, few people will agree with you.. ;)


Labels reinforce the gender binary, and the reinforce stereotypes.
I don't totally agree - perhaps only if you use existing labels - but accurate labels should allow one to discriminate (not prejudicially...) between different categories..?


The reason that labels run into so much trouble in this case is the complete inability for us to agree upon definitions for those labels.
Bingo again! I think I said something similar in the 'TG Rights..' thread the other day - but at the end of it all, if we can't agree amongst ourselves, we'll make no progress.

I accept what some have said about not needing a label for themselves... Fine - you carry on being what you are and that's all good... Some labels can be abusive or pejorative - but some 'labels' are necessary in society... If you want to practice medicine or law, you need to have a recognised 'label'... if you want to drive a big rig truck, you need to be in possession of a recognised 'label'... in the UK, if you want state benefits, you need to accept another kind of 'label'...

Labels are not always bad - but they are about categorising folk - and some may not agree with that aspect either... but it will be difficult to achieve recognition by demanding recognition of the group desiring to be unlabelled... :facepalm:

Katey x

[mikiSJ]

It mostly depends on who is assigning the label: I consider myself, now, to be a transgender woman desperately seeking to transition who is also a liberal, progressive, pinko, commie, atheist, opinionated, argumentative whatever.

Yet if someone were to yell fag, drag queen, sissy whatever I would definitely take issue with any of those labels. I also don't necessarily want to be included in any "we" grouping.

[Jane G]

If you mst lable me, then label me an individual. All others are kind of wasted. :battingeyelashes:

[mechamoose]

I would suggest that it is frustration over *control* of our labels that matters.

When someone misidentifies who and what we are, we (naturally) find it frustrating.

You keep feeling like "No, NO NOO.. You have it all wrong!! I'm >THIS<, not >THAT< (You ignorant slob!)"

Because of the territory we skirted folk inhabit, we fit several categories. I understand that we get frustrated by mis-identification, but what signa;s do the mundanes get that let them tell us apart? Even if they are 'enlightened', Can YOU tell the difference between a DQ/CD/TS/TG at 100 yards?

<3

- MM

[sanderlay]

For me... this all goes back to when I was a kid and all my experiences since then. I was labeled a male by sex... but my gender identify was not the same. I was called gay... but I'm heterosexual. I'm called a CD... but I don't crossdress the same as many do.

Yes... accurate labels are necessary to live in this society. But labels are also used to divide us against one another at times.

No wonder I don't like others assuming what they perceive I am when I am not in reality. Why not just ask me? My gender presentation, when you see me in person, should give most persons all they need to ask a starting question.

"Are you a man or a woman?" They say with a puzzled look on their face.

"Good Question." I smile wildly and respond... :D

[Michelle (Oz)]

Labels reinforce the gender binary, and the reinforce stereotypes.
Sorry, the world around us does apply labels whether we like it or not. The vast majority see life in very simple, clear and easily understood terms - male or female. The 'GLB' part of 'GLTB' also fit into that simple dichotomy - perhaps the reason we are isolated.

When I'm dressed I present as female and do my best to look the part. When I'm dressed male then I am male. While my body fits within the binary, my mind and attitudes switch between the binaries. TG is a label that does not reinforce gender binary and I am very comfortable fitting into society's understanding of the TG category.

Therefore, I am very comfortable labelling myself as TG. In some ways such a label makes it easier for me to understand and accept myself. It is also preferable to very negative labels such as Paula mentioned.

What I won't enter into, and I support Isha in this, is a debate about whether I am more or less TG than others, or whether as a CDer I even qualify. It is better IMO for us to accept that labels will be used and to shape their use than to debate the finer points well beyond society's (mis)understanding.

Michelle

[Kate Simmons]

It's not as much the "label" per se as it is everyone wanting to put everything in a neat little "box" and relegate us to where ever. This more or less tends to limit who we are as a person in the eyes of others. Sometimes we can't really be quantified as we are all unique individuals. That's the way I look at things anyway.:battingeyelashes::)

[Marcelle]

... Some labels can be abusive or pejorative - but some 'labels' are necessary in society... If you want to practice medicine or law, you need to have a recognised 'label'... if you want to drive a big rig truck, you need to be in possession of a recognised 'label'... in the UK, if you want state benefits, you need to accept another kind of 'label'...

Labels are not always bad - but they are about categorising folk - and some may not agree with that aspect either... but it will be difficult to achieve recognition by demanding recognition of the group desiring to be unlabelled... :facepalm:

Katey x

Hi Katey,

I agree in theory but the labels you are talking about are mainly employment categories or labels of requirement. Not labels about who I am as a person. I also agree that we (the community writ large) requires a name/label/category in order to gain recognition . . . It is hard to get anyone to listen to "Hey give us guys who sometimes dress like women or want to become women or inter-sexed, live in closet, go out in public, only wear skirts, remove all facial hair or not, wear make-up or not some rights" Nobody is going to take that seriously . . . not to mention it would make you winded just saying it.:)

So we do have a name "Transgender". It is not a label, it is a name for the community writ large. Where it goes bad is when some within make other feel (not always on purpose) less than TG by implying that you need to hit certain marks to truly be CD "raise the banner, storm the ramparts, go out in public, tell the world". That is where labels go wrong in my book when we (the community) eat each other alive trying to figure out what TG means or apply our own personal take on what inclusion means. Goodness . . . just be TG regardless of your penchant for dressing/presenting :facepalm: Be proud, supportive oh . . . and inclusive. Then it ceases being a label and becomes a community. :thumbsup:

I don't care if people want to label me gay, pervert, sicko, wacko or whatever, that is their baggage and they are welcome to it. I just hate having to justify what it means to me to be TG. I am "transgender" . . . that is not a label but a proud community of strong and proud people regardless of how they present. :)

Hugs

Isha

[stacey diane]

Labels imply stereotypes which never do justice to the person as a whole...

[Lucy_Bella]

So we do have a name "Transgender". It is not a label, it is a name for the community writ large...

True but Transgender is also a group ( label ) under the Trans Community that has a whole complete different meaning .. Which is fine if that makes a majority here happy to be mis informed ..Because that is what happens when people look up transgender not as a community but as a label..

Cross Dressing also falls under the Trans Gender Community but it doesn't always mean a Cder is transgender ( the label )..Confusing !:eek:

[Katey888]

Gosh! I'm bouncing between threads and agreeing with everyone - I think.... I feel like the Henrietta Kissinger of cd.com... (but hopefully better looking. ;))

Lucy - you're right - it will be confusing for muggles and probably some of our own... it's the principle of taxonomy (no, nothing to do with money... :)) - a horse is a quadruped but not all quadrupeds are horses... Which is why folk outside our 'community' do get easily confused... and probably why zebras don't like being called horses, and some snooty horses don't like to be associated with asses... (perhaps I've stretched that metaphor too far now...) :doh:

I think most of us could accept TG as an umbrella, if we're able to give folk who want to have an opt-out that right - so, perhaps like yourself; perhaps someone who is not certain, or simply doesn't need that association for whatever reason, they have the right to disregard it. Bit like the guy several decades ago who went to camp in a field in Switzerland, tore up and burnt his passport and declared himself 'the first citizen of the world' or some such nonsense... he's probably still there... the point is, you don't have to fall within the umbrella if you don't want to, but you're welcome if you do, and it helps swell the ranks of folks who would benefit from having greater recognition of something that should be considered a condition rather than a choice... which I know is not in everyone's mind, but isn't that where we're heading with this....?

:)

Katey x

[Marcelle]

..

True but Transgender is also a group ( label ) under the Trans Community that has a whole complete different meaning .. Which is fine if that makes a majority here happy to be mis informed ..Because that is what happens when people look up transgender not as a community but as a label..

Cross Dressing also falls under the Trans Gender Community but it doesn't always mean a Cder is transgender ( the label )..Confusing !:eek:

Lucy, I think we are agreeing to disagree on some aspects. Trans Community (aka Transgender Community) is exactly what I am talking about. It is a community. The term transgender is about gender identification. How you choose to identify/express regardless (CD/TS/gender queer . . . whatever) places you in the Trans Community. Trying to label what is TG and what is not is IMO where things go wrong.

I personally accept the fact I am transgender . . . what that means to me may differ what that means to you. But we still belong to the Trans Community.

Hugs

Isha

[NicoleScott]

Trying to label what is TG and what is not is IMO where things go wrong.

Nothing wrong with trying to label what is TG and what is not. Where things go wrong is that we have failed to agree.
But, as this and other threads go, we are working on it.
It doesn't make all labels bad just because there are problems with a few.

[Lucy_Bella]

the point is, you don't have to fall within the umbrella if you don't want to, but you're welcome if you do, and it helps swell the ranks of folks who would benefit from having greater recognition of something that should be considered a condition rather than a choice... which I know is not in everyone's mind, but isn't that where we're heading with this....?


No that is not where I was heading with this at all :)...I know I belong to this community as one who Cross Dresses and I support all in it and the termed umbrella.. Where I am heading with this ( and I have been down this road before)...

Is just because the term used for the umbrella has "Trans Gender" in it ( which is also a sub community of the umbrella community ).. Many ( including members here ) feel that all forms off Cross Dressing are "Gender " related ( meaning expressing ,feeling and dressing opposite of bio birth sex)..

That's not true but wait!!:eek: In saying that is not saying I do not belong to the community I am just being labeled wrong ...A few years back I told my Ex ( because it's what the community had me believing ) that I was T.G...:doh:

I was wrong and instead I should have said I belong to the the umbrella term used for Cross Dressing but I am in no way a Trans Gender..Why was that important you might ask? Because she took it and ran with results ( same as I've found defining what an actual T.G. means)..She ran with it too far and away from me or any chance to reconcile ,thought I wanted to be a woman so on so forth and she also ran her mouth so others were mis informed..

I'm a pleasure dresser with no GID ..I have no gender issues with matching my birth Bio Sex at all and to a stranger of this community it wouldn't seem that way from a glance because of the umbrella term if one did research using it ( not the other sub groups with in the community but the coined term used as a whole..

But I am fine just want to warn others here who may be just cders ..Careful how you label yourself..:)

I'd like to also add that the Umbrella term should not be Cross Dressers as well...Because many here are not actually "Cross Dressing" they are merely dressing appropriate or matching their gender .. Clothes are a societal assignment gender isn't...

[Charla McBee]

This thread had me spending a lot of time yesterday looking up all the different labels and what they supposedly mean. (Did you know Facebook allows 56 different gender classifications now?) I still can't figure out what used to be wrapped around my shiny little can on the back of the shelf. I think a broad interpretation of TG would probably work for a lot of us but I also think the average uninformed person would confuse that with TS. People think gender and sex are the same thing, that it's a binary split and that you ought to be able to pick one or the other.

Lucy Bella also raises a very good point that there are CDs who feel absolutely secure in their assigned gender so for them to say they are TG makes things all the more confusing. For my own part, I'm not unhappy presenting as male most of the time but there are days when I feel skewed in the feminine direction. There's definitely an internal conflict of fluctuating degrees so that probably does make me to some extent TG as we are describing it in this thread but if I were to adopt that label it would just confuse people outside of this community.

[Karren H]

I love labels..... got my old Dymo label maker and I can make all kinds of them.... in pretty bright colors too!

[PaulaQ]

Transgender includes persons who's gender expression OR identity vary from their assigned at birth sex. This is inclusive enough to cover everyone on this forum, save the cisgender genetic women who are members.

[Melissa_59]

I think my biggest objections to labels are the preconceptions that come with any label. For instance, "American", especially if you're overseas, means "ignorant about anything else in the world that is outside of the US borders" and while there are probably MILLIONs of people who fit that exact description, I'm NOT one of them

I can spell "Saskatchewan" without having to look it up and without using spell check. I can comfortably drive on the left hand side of the road (and have, many times, in countries that require it). I can even drive a right-hand-drive stick shift car - that takes a bit of coordination to shift with your off hand, but I've done it. I can drive from Edinburgh to Kaiserslautern without having to consult a map! We're not all completely blind to everything going on outside the US borders, but everyone assumes so at first, and it's a little frustrating.

Same with other labels. People put you in that can and you have to fight your way out. And I'm tired of fighting. I just want people to get along - maybe talk to the person first before you start judging. Sure, there are times I'll make a snap judgement and it's saved my life a few times, but there's a difference between something that's pretty harmless and someone who is out to pick a fight or worse.

[Katey888]

Where I am heading with this ( and I have been down this road before)...

Is just because the term used for the umbrella has "Trans Gender" in it ( which is also a sub community of the umbrella community ).. Many ( including members here ) feel that all forms off Cross Dressing are "Gender " related ( meaning expressing ,feeling and dressing opposite of bio birth sex)..

That's not true but wait!!:eek: In saying that is not saying I do not belong to the community I am just being labeled wrong ...

Lucy - I'm agreeing with you - that's why I wanted to suggest the idea of an 'opt-out' but that was probably the wrong way to put it... too suggestive that you were in whether you liked it or not and I didn't mean it to come across that harsh - so I apologise if it sounded that way.. :hugs:

I think it's great that you' re happy to be part of the community - and I can understand your distinction between those that feel something more than purely the pleasure aspect of dressing... the term CD is probably what misleads (ironically) since as you've pointed out, it includes folk who don't feel like they're CDing because they're expressing the gender they feel, and yet most of the rest of the world will view them that way.

Where I think we're missing some acceptance - although I understand that in the absence of a definitive 'test' of what makes someone TG, a lot of folk are likely to continue to place themselves outside that category - is with what seems a quite large section of our members here who don't dress for pleasure (in the sexual context), feel the desire to present as female and go out into the world presenting as female, can't explain why they feel a need to do this, but completely deny that there is a hint of TG-ness about this behaviour. I've used myself as an example here because having now read and understood that the TG label should not be pejorative, I don't fulfil all that criteria (in that I'm still closeted and have no doubt about my core gender) but the only way I can explain why I want to do what I do, is because my internal gender register is kranky and flip-flopping somewhere between male and female.. (go back to the 1980s I'd be an 'm-f' flip-flop suffering metastability if I was silicon.. :)) I think PaulaQ has queried the motives and acceptance of that subset before, and maybe some if it is to do with what you've experienced, Lucy (and I'm sorry for what happened to you...) - which is that once you're under that umbrella, everyone else assumes you're on the road to the big-T - which clearly isn't true.

I'm more than happy that CD pleasure dressers shouldn't really be categorised any differently - in a broader sense - to.. latex dressers, for example (hope I don't offend anyone there either..) - but we should still be happy to have you, and Nicole and the others in the community.

I do think it's important we should be able to agree some of these things ourselves, because ultimately some other bureaucrat or academic will slap a term on us and that would be much harder to dislodge.

And Melissa - for us Europeans, if you're an American that can drive a left-hand drive stick-shift, you're pretty exceptional already... ;)

Katey x

[Lucy_Bella]

Katey,

I'd like to thank you and all the other members who replied to this thread , no matter what the reply was.. I would also like to thank you for understanding were I was going with my last comment as well.... it is appreciated..

After my separation with my Ex I took it upon myself to not only learn more about myself but to try and get better understanding of why I do what I do .. So I took to the internet and stumbled on this site..Although I have occasionally dressed my whole life before separation it very rarely went more than "under dressing".. Anyhow a long story short I took what this site suggested " my label " to be and ran with it but after trying just about everything a T.G. could want to try none of it felt right ( T.G. support groups,getting out , a girly name etc) none of it..

So I started doing deeper research myself looking up things under the " T.G. umbrella " that described me better things that always stated " falls under the T.G. umbrella " if Gender identity was involved...When I found these descriptions explaining why everything I did in trying to be a T.G. ( to accept myself ) didn't feel right it struck me as to why..I have no gender issues it was that easy after knowing and not that it was a bad thing if I was a T.G. that's not my point..

So this is a support forum I don't come here to often in fact I am over due on my normally taken 3 month vacation away from here ..But when I do come here I try to make it a point to reach out to others like me to not soak in everything they read here ..There are many other forms of CDING, my way may not be the norm here but as a whole outside of here it is the majority..I'm not trying to change the daily posting members here ( there is no way I would even try ) but if you notice there are thousands of lurkers here on a daily bases ( those who never post)..I'm reaching out to them "lets talk about it come in" This site offers more than just dressing and make up threads ..

If it up sets those who are not " at the same spectrum" than I it's not on purpose but they also need to remember this forums tag line "This section is for those interested in discussing all areas of male to female crossdressing."..

Again I'd like to thank everyone for their replies and you to Katey for such a thoughtful and pleasant reply as well ..

[Wildaboutheels]

Some folks want labels. Other folks need labels. Other folks don't like or want them and other folks don't care either way. Which person is "correct"?

What I find rather silly is that many here become irate, because either someone here and/or out in public called them an xyz. HOW DARE THEY!

When so many "experts" HERE can't agree on labels and who fits where, is it really worthwhile to fret over the ignorance of people out in the RW? If anyone feels "insulted" by someone out in the RW, you have the CHOICE. Give them the benefit of the doubt and explain to them OR ignore them or slink off and be mad about it.

It IS A FORUM MYTH! No one here can read the minds of people we meet out in the RW regardless of the clothes we are wearing. If YOU won't take the time to try to educate folks, just who do you think is going to?