Transgender vs Gender Nonconforming

[sanderlay]

I've been doing some research into the two terms Transgender verses Gender Nonconforming as it relates to myself. Both terms are prominently in the Standards of Care (http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Standards%20of%20Care,%20V7%20Full%20Book.pdf) version 7 some of us might use. And seeing how many persons dislike the term transgender I decided to research it. Before this I thought I was transgendered CD, cross-dresser. I did not understand why many were rejecting it. Now I don't think transgender applies to myself either given what I found.

Transgender's purest meaning is (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transgender)...
1. A person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

So seeing this it seems transgender is the wrong word to describe myself. It has it links in the gender binary which is not what I'm trying to present as. I'm not trying to be the opposite but a mix of male and female.

Gender Nonconforming is two words and so I'll look at them separately.

Gender's purest meaning is (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Gender)...
2. Sexual identity, (which I see as gender identity), especially in relation to society or culture.

Nonconforming's purest meaning is (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nonconforming)...
a. 1. Not conforming; declining conformity; especially, not conforming to the established church of a country.

So putting Gender Nonconforming all together I get...
1. Gender identity that is declining conformity.

So for myself a Gender Nonconforming CD seems to be the better terms. Now keep in mind I know who I am. I don't like labels very much. But if I'm going to describe myself to someone I want to use the closest terms possible with these least possibility of being misunderstood. I also use these terms / words as a starting point and not a definitive definition of myself.

So given this information... what words might you use... or do you have another term(s)?

Transgender... Gender Nonconforming... or ... your word(s)

[Rogina B]

Transgender covers everyone...Gender non conforming has a lot of scope as well.

[kimdl93]

I agree with Rogina. We can parse these terms until they are practically devoid of meaning, but why bother.

[AllieSF]

I am transgender and I crossdress. I like the umbrella idea when trying to explain to others when I need to explain. I also think that the word "transgender" sounds better to others or at least to me anyway. I try to put myself in that other person's shoes for a minute when they first see me. here in the USA crossdresser is a pretty accepted term regardless of what many may think that it means. I think "transgender" with all the recent LGBT legislation, controversies about rights also may carry a little more weight elevating my activity/hobby to something frivolous and maybe weird for some to a little higher level. It is probably just a dream on mine, but maybe it does make a difference to the many strangers I meet over time, so if it helps a few that may have a multiplying affect to help others better understand us and maybe better tolerate and accept us. It has been, is and will be a long process to get where we want everyone else to be. But one step forward is always worth it.

[Rachael Leigh]

You know I'm good for me just MtF crossdresser I mean that's what I am since for me my gender is always male it works for me.

[Erica Marie]

Gender non-conforming or gender neutral may refer to outer appearance. What we feel inside cannot be labeled. Everyday I struggle with labels, when will it be alright to just be who we are?

[Michelle789]

Transgender is an umbrella term for anyone who's gender identity or gender expression is different from their assigned birth sex. Gender non-conforming is anyone whose gender expression doesn't conform to the expectations of their assigned birth sex, or the gender they identify with. At least that's what it means to me.

Personally I'm trying to remove myself from labels.

[stacycoral]

I like the term T-Girl myself, more than a cd and less than transexal.

[ReineD]

WPATH: World Professional Association for Transgender Health

I should think that no one will argue with the WPATH definitions located in the Glossary, on page 222 of "The Standard of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender-Nonconforming People, Version 7" (2011)

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT%20SOC,%20V7.pdf



Gender-nonconforming: Adjective to describe individuals whose gender identity, role, or expression differs from what is normative for their assigned sex in a given culture and historical period.

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally define categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.


Gender-nonconforming describes an individual.

Transgender describes a diverse group of individuals, among whom are the gender-nonconforming people.

People get confused, because the media uses the term "transgender" extensively in stories that describe people who have or who are transitioning, or who appear in public presenting as their target gender. I suppose using the term "transgender" in the media makes sense. It's not up to the person writing the article to come up with a determination as to whether the subject is transsexual or not, since everyone's circumstances are different. So even in this sense, "transgender" is a catch-all term.

[Jacqueline Winona]

This one again? :) Reine, I do disagree with it, I'll go with the Berkeley definition in the other thread over any others. Sanderly, you're def. of transgendered describes exactly what I think it means. Transgender implies a lot more than just dressing up once in a while.This is too subjective a subject to say everyone is part of the group, whether you like it or not. There's nothing wrong with identifying as TG, but there's also nothing wrong with saying you don't identify as such. It's a personal thing. We're kind of getting away from labeling people as this or that in every other part of life (I think I read that there are 54 ways to describe your gender on Facebook?), so why is it so important to come up with one definition here?

[ReineD]

Well Winona, you'll be disagreeing with an international board of experts on all matters trans.

But, this is your prerogative. I can start calling my television set a watermellon if I want to. People won't know what I mean though when I describe where I saw last night's Mad Men episode. :)


Edit - Sorry Winona, I hadn't read the Berkeley definition, but I agree with you now. It also defines transgender as an umbrella term for diverse individuals, among whom are crossdressers (transvestites), transgenderists, genderqueer, etc.

http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender

[docrobbysherry]

Potahto, potayto. Now, where did I leave my bra??

[ReineD]

I get the people who don't want labels or who don't want to define themselves, and who are tired of rehashing all these terms. I agree, it is tiring. But, it's also an education and hopefully one day everyone in the community will agree with the experts.

Still, there are people who do wish to define themselves, such as the OP, and I think it's a mark of disrespect to dismiss this.

[Rachael Leigh]

See I guess for me is there are days I feel like blending my wardrobe or maybe one day add a little makeup but still look male mostly, than I want to go for the whole 9 yards wig makeup dress and all so not sure what that makes me.
Not to mention days when I'm all guy, except for my shaved legs of course which not sure that's male or a female thing anymore

[ReineD]

Leigh, I guess this makes you a very fluid person. :)

[GaleWarning]

When we can learn to stop labelling ourselves and others, then we truly will be on our way to simply being ...

[Tracii G]

Holy cow not this again!
Why do some people have the overwhelming need to fit in a category on a chart that some so called scientific guy/girl at a university somewhere made up.
Chances are the so called scientist gets a government grant and spews out psycho babble to make it look like he found the CD/TG red herring.
How about live your life as you want and enjoy life being yourself.

[Jennifer in CO]

I am what I was...I am not what I will be...

[Jacqueline Winona]

Reine, respectfully, you omitted a very important part of that second definition: [It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such.B][/B]
Experts in one field aren't always in agreement, or right for that matter. Berkeley is about as objective an educational organization as you'll find on pure academic issues, WPATH states that its message is to promote best practices and standards of care for Transgender health. http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1347&pk_association_webpage=3910 You may think that I have my head in the sand on this one, but I'll go with the academics on defining terms, and the healthcare professionals on medical issues.

[mechamoose]

>Jumps up and down<

<= Gender Nonconforming Transgendered Person

Guy in a dress with a girl inside. Mom with a beard.

<3

- MM

[noeleena]

Hi,

i know people and here will wonder about this and i have noted it before, ... probably throw it in too hard basket , what do you do with one who is non sexual...... no sex organs male or female .....i love it.... cause i never get an answer,

oh well since im none of the others i have to be classed as totaly weird,

And i can go into other aspects of my self that answers the ? and its still not any better.

So it comes down to legal govt dept documents and birth cert's,
And how people treat you in hostpitals medic centers and all other legal matters .

I have 5 main labels two define me as to all intents and purpose's ill let you know later.

Gee..... i can have ...FUN.... with this.

...noeleena...

[Secret Drawer]

Someone on this site once said that definitions are a tool to get us closer to an accurate description of who or what we are. It makes sense to use definitions in this manner. It does not necessarily paint anyone into a specific box, but we are members of a site called crossdressers.com and not truckdrivers.com because the definition is more applicable, even if not perfectly accurate, than truckdrivers.com. Once we enter into the blanket of crossdresser we can split more hairs to our hearts content. I call myself gender fluid on this site because it allows most readers to understand the androgynous nature of ME vs something else. Definitions are necessary evils but if used without extremes, can be useful tools in our own self explorations (as the original OP stated)

[mechamoose]

Noleena

I'm sure you know this, but your gender identity and your sexuality are not linked. They can be at opposite poles.

So you can be where you are as far as gender without any consideration for your interests in play/desire. I like *people* first. Sure, I appreciate a well formed person's body, but if they aren't interesting, my 'breeding' instincts don't come into it.

[Zylia]

Gender-nonconforming: Adjective to describe individuals whose gender identity, role, or expression differs from what is normative for their assigned sex in a given culture and historical period.

By this definition, gender-nonconforming is an awfully broad term as well. Doesn't that make every cross-dresser gender-nonconforming, or is it somehow important that your gender expression differs from what is normative at any time as opposed to only when you're 'en femme'? I always assumed that gender-nonconforming was a term for those who do not fully conform to 'normal' gender expressions, e.g. 'men in skirts'/partial cross-dressers/men who wear women's clothing but do not present as women. I always try to conform to 'normal' gender expressions, be it in male form or female form, just not always to the one that is normative for my assigned sex, so I wouldn't call myself gender-nonconforming.

[Marcelle]

Oy vey :facepalm: . . . soup anyone?

Hugs

Isha

[Kate T]

Yes the constant question of labels can be somewhat tiresome at times.

BUT to everyone who wants to dismiss the OP's question consider this. To the general public you will get maybe 30-60 seconds to explain your presentation verbally, in print perhaps 2 sentences before they make an initial assessment of you. THAT is why labels are USEFUL, because they enable you to relay a reasonably large amount of information in a fairly short time. In addition they help to enable the collation of information about SIMILAR things so that assessments can be made, possible patterns looked for and utilised.

Back to the OP original question i.e. TG vs Gender nonconforming, I must admit I have difficulty in seeing where there is likely to be significant difference in any useful information on either a past or future predictive sense between the two terms and as such I feel the two terms on a practical level are interchangeable. Certainly I describe myself using either term. As Reine has pointed out there is certainly public confusion between the term "transgender" and "transexual" (two terms which have very distinct meanings that have a dramatic impact particular on future predictive assessment) and as such an argument could be made that perhaps the term gender nonconforming may be a better term to avoid this confusion. A part of me though is concerned that trying to further differentiate like this could further ostracise either the TS community and I am thus reluctant to push this too heavily. If the public confuses TG and TS then they need further education on the difference, by keeping that education going they are forced to confront education on transsexualism and as we know, education encourages tolerance and acceptance.

[Kate Simmons]

Hi, I'm Kate. Pleased to meetcha. :battingeyelashes::)

[Beverley Sims]

Hi I'm Beverley,
and I agree with Kate,
and Mechamoose,
and Isha,
and Jennifer,
and Gale,
and Doc,
and I thought Tracii had too much to say. :)

Just waiting for Katey to weigh in on this one now.

[ReineD]

Reine, respectfully, you omitted a very important part of that second definition: [It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such.B][/B]

I did say it was your prerogative to identify as you wish. :)

But, this does not change the definition of the term. If I'm colorblind, I can say that the color I see is blue, when everyone else sees it as green. It will be blue to me.

I'm not making a judgment as to how you identify. I'm merely providing the definitions.


or is it somehow important that your gender expression differs from what is normative at any time as opposed to only when you're 'en femme'?

Gender-nonconformity doesn't refer to someone who is transsexual. WPATH does make a distinction between TSs and gender-nonconforming people. If a person doesn't identify as a TS (doesn't feel incongruent with their primary and secondary sexual characteristics) and they switch presentation back and forth, then their gender identity is not firmly at either end of the gender binary even if they believe themselves to be female or feminine while dressed. Conversely if a person is TS but in the process of transitioning (they still present male to some people), their identity is still firmly on the female side of the binary. The male presentation is only temporary.

I don't know what to make of people who identify as TS but who aren't or don't foresee transitioning though. This is a huge debate in the TS community.

[devida]

Oh I think it's OK to have labels. They are obviously useful in bringing about social change and they are also useful for processing the large amounts of information that we all experience day to day. They don't have to be perfectly individually accurate. I mean I know we are all snowflakes and all different from each other but it's OK to use the shorthand of labels if you don't want to bore someone silly with your entire life history and your many, many opinions about yourself. So using the shorthand I am non binary transgender. I am not cross dressing because I am presenting the gender I am, which is somewhere between male and female. My manner, dress, gestures, outlook, etc., etc., are somewhere between the gender stereotypes of the macho man and the feminine woman. You want to be more specific, go for it. You want to have special pronouns because you actually identify your gender with the droids in Star Wars, go for it. I will do my best to remember the way in which you want to be referred. If it makes you happy to be thought of as the gender of forest faerie, I'm down with that and I will refer to you as fae. What's the big deal? We own our own vocabulary. It's just good manners to use the vocabulary the person I address requests. If a woman requests I call her Ms, but not Miss., OK. If a man says he is actually they, OK. However does this harm me? You can call me anything, btw. I don't care. I know who I am and I don't need you to confirm it. But if you do, let me do you that favor. I am happy to make my mind work just a little bit harder, any time at all.

[sanderlay]

Thank you to everyone for your opinions, information and links on this subject.

I've continued to look up definitions about Transgender from various sites. The pattern I'm seeing is that some dictionary websites seem to have older definitions, some 10 to 20 years old, or a more condensed definition that lack the details. As Wikipedia put it for transgender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender), …

"The precise definition for transgender is changing..."

So that might be part of the reason. Also in Standards of Care version 7 (http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Standards%20of%20Care,%20V7%20Full%20Book.pdf) a statement is made...

"WPATH also acknowledges that many terms used in relation to this population are not ideal. For example, the terms transsexual and transvestite—and, some would argue, the more recent term transgender—have been applied to people in an objectifying fashion. Yet such terms have been more or less adopted by many people who are making their best effort to make themselves understood. …"
(pg 101 PDF or pg 95 on the page)

So this is something to consider when choosing a term to describe yourself. And I do hope that the definition that WPATH is using, for transgender that Reine posted (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?213034-Transgender-vs-Gender-Nonconforming&p=3497481&viewfull=1#post3497481) and is in the sticky section (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?162497-Some-Common-Trans-Related-Definitions), will be more universally accepted in time or a new word will be created, used and accepted by all communities for those who need it.

Also everyone has the RIGHT to use terms or words that seem to best apply to themselves. I'm not trying to apply a term, word or label to ANY person. But with that said...

I don't like to modify existing words and muddle or confuse their meaning. I'd rather use an existing word, if possible, to describe myself with it's original meaning.


... or is it somehow important that your gender expression differs from what is normative at any time as opposed to only when you're 'en femme'?

Yes, that's a big part the point. I don't use 'en femme' because I'm not presenting as a woman. Mine is a mixed presentation, non-binary.


Gender-nonconformity doesn't refer to someone who is transsexual. WPATH does make a distinction between TSs and gender-nonconforming people.

Yes. This is another reason why the term Gender-nonconformity works better for myself. I have no plans to modify my body and become a transsexual.


To the general public you will get maybe 30-60 seconds to explain your presentation verbally, in print perhaps 2 sentences before they make an initial assessment of you.

Well put. KIS, Keep it simple.


... I try to put myself in that other person's shoes for a minute when they first see me. ...

An excellent idea. Thank you.


Gender non-conforming or gender neutral may refer to outer appearance. What we feel inside cannot be labeled. ...

Perhaps. But with my presentation, non-binary, I'm making an attempt to show a person what I feel inside as regards to my gender identity. It is however only a starting point and can start a conversation.


Someone on this site once said that definitions are a tool to get us closer to an accurate description of who or what we are.

Exactly. They are only a starting point to help another person gain some insight.


... I am non binary transgender. I am not cross dressing because I am presenting the gender I am, which is somewhere between male and female. My manner, dress, gestures, outlook, etc., etc., are somewhere between the gender stereotypes of the macho man and the feminine woman. …

Thank you for all your words and well said. And I like how you are NOT cross-dressing because they are YOUR clothes for YOU.

[NathalieX66]

I agree with the last post by devida. It describes who I am.
Me, I picked a place on the map, and this is where I ended up. I don't see life as penis vs. vagina, male vs. female, it goes way beyond that. We are not so simple.

[Lucy_Bella]

Gender-nonconformity doesn't refer to someone who is transsexual. WPATH does make a distinction between TSs and gender-nonconforming people. If a person doesn't identify as a TS (doesn't feel incongruent with their primary and secondary sexual characteristics) and they switch presentation back and forth, then their gender identity is not firmly at either end of the gender binary even if they believe themselves to be female or feminine while dressed. Conversely if a person is TS but in the process of transitioning (they still present male to some people), their identity is still firmly on the female side of the binary. The male presentation is only temporary.

I don't know what to make of people who identify as TS but who aren't or don't foresee transitioning though. This is a huge debate in the TS community.

This is how another org see's it..

What is the difference?
Gender specialists differentiate transgender from gender nonconforming by noting that a transgender will assert firmly, over time, that their gender identity is the opposite of that which was assigned at birth. They will insist that they are in the wrong body, or that God made a mistake. Gender nonconforming are often less adamant about who they are not, but will stubbornly assert what toys they do and don’t like, clothes they will and won’t wear, or activities they do or don’t prefer irrespective of their assigned gender. One way to think about the difference is that while all transgender are gender nonconforming, not all gender nonconforming are transgender.

[Jacqueline Winona]

I did say it was your prerogative to identify as you wish. :)

But, this does not change the definition of the term. If I'm colorblind, I can say that the color I see is blue, when everyone else sees it as green. It will be blue to me.

I'm not making a judgment as to how you identify. I'm merely providing the definitions.





Gender-nonconformity doesn't refer to someone who is transsexual. WPATH does make a distinction between TSs and gender-nonconforming people. If a person doesn't identify as a TS (doesn't feel incongruent with their primary and secondary sexual characteristics) and they switch presentation back and forth, then their gender identity is not firmly at either end of the gender binary even if they believe themselves to be female or feminine while dressed. Conversely if a person is TS but in the process of transitioning (they still present male to some people), their identity is still firmly on the female side of the binary. The male presentation is only temporary.

I don't know what to make of people who identify as TS but who aren't or don't foresee transitioning though. This is a huge debate in the TS community.

Never thought you were making any judgments about me, I'm merely poking holes in the theory that there is an accepted definition. Really, this isn't a personal grudge match, I debate this issue with anyone. Much like many of my friends who identify as "Mexican" and not "Latino," terms do matter to many people. I may go to church every week, but I don't want to be called Evangelical because of the connotations that term has. People who live in the country may not all be into country music, not every Californian eats avocado, etc., etc.

[Holly]

Personally I don't care to be defined as a "non" anything. My label is Holly. If others care to know more about me, then let's spend some time getting to know one another. Words are so imperfect when trying to describe things or people who, by their very nature are diverse and unique. I would have a much higher confidence in a description of someone given my themself than one found in a textbook, manual, dictionary, etc. The bottome line is please don't call me late to supper.

[ReineD]

Gender specialists differentiate transgender from gender nonconforming by noting that a transgender will assert firmly, over time, that their gender identity is the opposite of that which was assigned at birth. They will insist that they are in the wrong body,

No, Lucy ... you're confusing "transgender" with "transsexual". It's not. Have a look at the WPATH definitions (see link in #9) or the definitions on any LGBT site.

A lot of people in this forum believe that "TG" and "TS" are interchangeable. They are not, even if the media uses the term "TG" when they refer to a transitioning TS.

"Gender-nonconforming" refers to how an individual might identify. "Transgender" refers to a group of individuals, some of whom refer to themselves as gender-nonconforming, others as CD, or TG, or DQ, or genderqeer, bigender, gender variant, gender fluid, etc. Remember that "transgender" is not a statement that says a person necessarily identifies as a gender different than birth sex (for example a CD who is male identified). "Transgender" simply means that the person is engaging in behavior that goes beyond what is culturally accepted for their birth sex, for example a male who wears women's dresses in our society. We may like to think here that in our culture it is or should be the norm for men to wear dresses or otherwise be feminine in the same ways that women are, but this is not the reality. But, the male who wears dresses (or wears makeup, women's jewelry, wigs, etc) can still identify as a male and fit under the transgender umbrella because of his actions.


... if he presents as a male who is not attempting to be feminine (by our current cultural standards), for example if he wears a kilt or one of the newer man-skirts, then IMO he is not crossdressing.

[Lucy_Bella]

No, Lucy ... you're confusing "transgender" with "transsexual". .

Not confusing at all "Transgenderist" is a coined word used in describing a person who is not satisfied living with matching Gender and Bio sex and was formally known as a Transsexual but the sexual upset many Transgenderist people.. A "transgender" or TG is a umbrella term to describe all Trans people including Transexuals ...

It just comes down to how the labels are being used I guess and that could be why TS is now favored ..

[ReineD]

Lucy,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Prince#Trans_Terminology.2C_Crossdresser_ Identity_and_Controversy

Specifically, the first sentence of the second paragraph. She didn't want to change her physical sex, so she didn't see herself as a transsexual.

This is the citation:

Prince, Virginia. “Seventy Years in the Trenches of the Gender Wars.” Gender Bending. Eds. V. Bullough, B. Bullough, B. and J. Elias. New York: Prometheus Books, 1997.

[Lucy_Bella]

Specifically, the first sentence of the second paragraph. She didn't want to change her physical sex, so she didn't see herself as a transsexual.

This is the citation:

Prince, Virginia. “Seventy Years in the Trenches of the Gender Wars.” Gender Bending. Eds. V. Bullough, B. Bullough, B. and J. Elias. New York: Prometheus Books, 1997.

Yes very aware of that thank you :) But please keep in mind that there are pre op TS's that is a transgenderist ..One who lives their life a different gender than bio sex and do not wish to change bio sex..

Here is how I read it from a site dedicated to Prince..
The desire to portray the role of a woman is an expression of gender feelings. “Gender” refers to the feelings, roles and behavior our culture considers “masculine” or “feminine.” A person’s sex, on the other hard, is either male or female as determined by anatomy and genetic make-up. Parents, society, the child’s earliest environment tend to reinforce the development of a gender role commensurate with the biological sex a person is born with. However, a person’s gender feelings do not always match his or her biological sex, and these submerged feelings may be expressed through crossdressing.

The behavior, motives, sexual preference, and lifestyles of people who crossdress vary from individual to individual. When a person functions publicly its either gender role we use the term “transgenderist.” A transgenderist goes beyond crossdressing to convey an image and express feelings we usually associate with femininity. Some of them characteristics are behavioral — the way one walks, sits, crosses one’s legs, carries himself. Some are physical — such as hair removal or hormone injections to develop secondary sexual characteristics. Some transgenderists live most of their lives in their preferred gender role, functioning as women or men socially but not biologically. For others, this is not enough. When a person decides that he or she can no longer live in a physical body that does not match his or her preferred gender, he or she may opt for reassignment surgery. When we we the classification “transsexual.” None of these classifications are absolute.

[Katey888]

Just waiting for Katey to weigh in on this one now.

Thought I'd give it an overnight on the off chance it might get deleted or even that someone could come up with an answer everyone would agree with... :roflmao: - oh well... :)

Sanderlay's original question was: Transgender, Gender nonconforming or something else...?

Something else for me, please... :)

it strikes me that the professionals don't fully agree, we can't fully agree, but as long as we accept that we're somewhere in that weird gender-mixing, crossdressing, femme-presenting melange of males (here on mtf - not to exclude ftm but just invert everything) who have a need or desire to express or utilise feminine aspects of our being for whatever reason, isn't that enough?

One wonders if other folk have the same type of discussions on other forums - I can only imagine a 2nd skin forum... "PVC is better.." "No - latex.." "Well, you mustn't call it latex it's actually acrylonitrile butadiene rubber..." :facepalm:

For the record, I do believe that I - as a not exclusively pleasure dresser - do have aspects that are transgender - how can I explain my avatar and profile pic otherwise? :confused: But am I gender-nonconforming? If I were to accept that my gender is not binary but that gender presentation as defined by society always must be, then yes - I'm always gender-nonconforming because there's always a femme or male aspect of me that isn't presented.

I think the definition of transsexual is much clearer, but I would counsel Lucy's closing statement for all of our semantic debating: None of these classifications are absolute.

Katey x

[Lucy_Bella]

it strikes me that the professionals don't fully agree, we can't fully agree, but as long as we accept that we're somewhere in that weird gender-mixing, crossdressing, femme-presenting melange of males (here on mtf - not to exclude ftm but just invert everything) who have a need or desire to express or utilise feminine aspects of our being for whatever reason, isn't that enough?

Yes :) of course it's enough as these are not my quotes ..These are copied and paste quotes ( my replies) of professionals that are in the field of gender spectrum ...These are examples of how "real labels " get miss represented or do not match the opinions of their respected communities ..I wasn't disagreeing with anyone just another learning experience for me :) ..

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Debbie, I thought we all agreed that labels were for Soup cans and packages.

[Zylia]

biologically
I know that classifications are not absolute indeed, but this is like a rather quaint way of looking at transsexuality in my opinion. A so-called (MtF) transgenderist can opt for HRT (and hair removal), but only SRS makes her 'transsexual' and – moreover – function as a 'biological woman'?

[Jacqueline Winona]

Lucy, if we could just hit like on your post, you would have about 100 by now. Your next to last post sums things up perfectly.

[Lorileah]

:Angry3:

Transgender's purest meaning is (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transgender)...
1. A person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser. I like how you chose the third meaning in the list as the "purest". This is sort of like having your thesis and then working backwards to prove it. Read the first meaning
1. Appearing as, wishing to be considered as, or having undergone surgery to become a member of the opposite sex..

I don't understand why at least twice a month someone has to try and start an argument on definitions. Know what? I don't care what you call yourself, you can call yourself whatever you want but in order to have logical discussions you have to have a standard definition and it is in the stickies above.

[Lucy_Bella]

(MtF) transgenderist can opt for HRT (and hair removal), but only SRS makes her 'transsexual' and – moreover – function as a 'biological woman'?

It's been said that and this is were the problem lays for many "Pre Ops" the right to function as a biological woman with or without SRS.. One should not have to go through SRS to reserve that right ( until they are ready mentally or physically or never) ..

It's important to know that biological sex does not control gender many " pre ops" ( transgenderist ) Feel they were born in the wrong biological sex or body and already believe themselves to be "bio logical women" and going under a knife should not exclude them ..That'is what "Gender Nonconforming " or .."Gender Variance" is... It could also be why "labels" irk the upper gender spectrum ..
'

[ClaraKay]

I do find the labels on restroom doors useful. :heehee:

[sanderlay]

@ Lorileah,

I'm sorry you feel that way. It was never my intent to start an argument about two different words. So please, Moderators, close or delete this thread at your discretion if you feel this thread is unproductive or causing too much controversy. My question has been answer.

FYI: The page (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transgender) I got the definition from has three different dictionary sources, The American Heritage® Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary and Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary.

Thank you everyone for your answers and your insights.

[ReineD]

Yes very aware of that thank you :) But please keep in mind that there are pre op TS's that is a transgenderist ..One who lives their life a different gender than bio sex and do not wish to change bio sex..

Lucy if they are pre-op, this means pre-operative. They are waiting for SRS surgery. This indicates they DO wish to change their genitals.



The behavior, motives, sexual preference, and lifestyles of people who crossdress vary from individual to individual. When a person functions publicly its either gender role we use the term “transgenderist.” A transgenderist goes beyond crossdressing to convey an image and express feelings we usually associate with femininity. Some of them characteristics are behavioral — the way one walks, sits, crosses one’s legs, carries himself. Some are physical — such as hair removal or hormone injections to develop secondary sexual characteristics. Some transgenderists live most of their lives in their preferred gender role, functioning as women or men socially but not biologically. For others, this is not enough. When a person decides that he or she can no longer live in a physical body that does not match his or her preferred gender, he or she may opt for reassignment surgery. When we we the classification “transsexual.” None of these classifications are absolute.

This lumps an awful lot of different people under the same term "transgender", which is precisely why it is an umbrella term.

There are crossdressers who present fully as women (including walking like one :)) and who identify as men. You cannot tell these people that they have a feminine gender identity, they'll shoot you! LOL. Other crossdressers identify bigender. But I agree, they do belong under the transgender umbrella due to their actions (and not necessarily their gender identity).

There are crossdressers who do engage in cosmetic feminization and who still identify as men: such as body shaving (although some male athletes body shave), pierced ears and long hair (although many men pierce their ears and wear their hair long without attempting to look feminine). This is NOT changing any secondary sexual characteristics unless maybe they permanently remove their hair at great cost, through electrolysis.

When it gets to the point of changing secondary sexual characteristics chemically through HRT (attempting to grow breasts and putting a halt to male sexual functioning), then yes, this goes beyond what most crossdressers do. Still, some people who do this consider themselves between the genders (and they do not want SRS), while others consider themselves TS (re transwomen). The debate in the TS community is whether or not a person can be considered TS (on her way to becoming a physical woman) if she wants to retain male sexual functioning. I don't know enough about HRT to tell you if milder doses can accomplish some body feminization and/or emotional peace (through a psychological lessening of GID) without affecting male sexual functioning or not. So you see, among this group of people there are still some who do not consider themselves fully female, while others do. It's a mixture.

There are even some TSs who do want to continue to identify as TS and not women! I believe that at least one person who identifies as TS in this forum also believes that she is genderqueer. But, most transitioners that I know do consider themselves women post-op, and not TS.

All this to say that "transgender" covers an awful lot of different people. We keep getting back to that.

[Lucy_Bella]

Lucy if they are pre-op, this means pre-operative. They are waiting for SRS surgery. This indicates they DO wish to change their genitals.. :o

Reine ,

Again I do agree.... But let just say that there is more to a females sexual anatomy than the down stairs portion.. Sexuality secondaries without SRS can also be hormones ,breast enhancement, plastic and facial surgery among other surgeries and procedures ... Things known to but don't always go with the females biological sex ..

Sex or sexuality doesn't only lay between the legs,well for some anyways..

[Taylor Ray]

Yes I agree. I just sent the Board of Directors a picture of me in a dress and they texted me back saying that the lighting was too dim to categorize me. I guess they need some more pics of me in different poses.

[Katey888]

And on that note... we've probably moved that along as far as we could for now. :)

Closed at request of Originator - thank you all

Katey
Moderator