A question for those here who identify as male :)

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I have to ask this as it's one of those niggling GG questions I can't get out of my head!

1) Why does crossdressing eventually become an innate part of your personality? Most here say they discovered CD out of childish curiosity - that you felt 'drawn' to try on female clothing. I don't find this unusual, to be honest, as kids love to do things that are taboo. What I don't understand is how it becomes THAT much bigger when you're older, growing from a simple, regular enjoyment of women's clothing to the point where you're using a female name, outing yourself to family and shopping at Walmart in a wig. I mean, a few years back I watched a cooking show and suddenly became determined to try figs (never eaten them but they looked great on this show) so I went out, bought some and ate them. My curiosity paid off and I realised I really liked figs. I now consider myself a happy, habitual fig consumer, but I don't consider myself a fig expert who should now start a fig farm and change my entire life to accommodate my fig consumption.

So why does a simple crossdressing curiosity eventually become an identity for so many here? Is crossdressing really that innate, or does natural male competitiveness mean you are driven to perfect all interests, and yes, you would eventually start a fig farm, lol.

And don't pretend you're all not competitive either. Just check out the picture threads!! :)

[Rachael Leigh]

This is a great question and really not sure there is a answer. For me as a child I try to think what was it that made me want to try on moms clothes. My sisters clothes were cuter but didn't really fit.
Once I tried on the dress and undies it was just fun but after a while it's all I wanted at times to have my own cute dresses or skirts but never acted on it except on very few occasions.
I just can't come up with a why it's a question I just don't think I will ever have the answer

[Skyeyes]

I cannot give you a definitive answer. I have wondered if the life-long desire to wear female clothing is a result of our initial exploration of female clothing during the time we were forming our sexual identity. I am an underdresser. I like wearing bras, slips, panties and stockings. I have no desire to go beyond that point. As I reflect back to my first experiences of wearing my mother's underwear, I think it made me feel sexually closer to females because I was able to wear the same intimate clothing that they did. It made me feel good and it let me feel what women feel in their intimate clothing. I am sure at first it was a sexual rush, a taboo if you will. Now I find it gives me a level of inner peace when I wear a bra and/or panties.

[dana digs sweaters]

It's fun.
Was fun to crossdress while young.
Being out on Halloween, at school too, with the perfect excuse to do so.
Still fun as an adult to present as female. No, I will never try to fool anyone that I am a woman, but I want to enjoy myself out & about while dolled up.
I use a girl name because I don't feel like introducing myself to anybody as Ralph.
Walmart??? Bleh!

[PaulaQ]

My belief is that it's because they suffer from a progressive, if milder, form of gender dysphoria, and over time it gets worse. It also comes and goes episodically.

Since essentially the same symptoms happen with people who ultimately transition, I believe the conditions are related - although in the case of someone who transitions, GD is sometimes a hellish nightmare where death would be a mercy.

[sometimes_miss]

1) Why does crossdressing eventually become an innate part of your personality?

As you read more, you'll discover that a lot of us started crossdressing very early in life, for whatever reason. As we continue to do it, the behavior of feeling as if we either are a girl or are supposed to be a girl eventually becomes part of our personality during a vulnerable period of development. And once you've reached puberty, it's permanent; there's no known way to remove it. The nearest comparison I can give you is this: It's well known that when children learn a language at an early age, they will be able to speak it without an accent from their first language. But if you learn a new language after puberty, you WILL have an accent in any languages you learn afterward. This is because the part of our brains associated with speaking and language 'finalize', if you will, and it becomes permanent at about the same age as puberty, perhaps influenced by the same chemistry changes in us that cause the secondary sexual characteristics to take place. In much the same way, I believe (based on everything we know about sexual identity) that our self identification becomes permanent, and for us, it leaves a permanent feeling of wanting to either dress, dress and behave, or even BE female. There is no exact science in this; gender identity studies are still in their infancy, and very very few therapists know anything about it. All the rest of us have to go on, is our own experiences and our discussions with others who share similar gender identity 'distortions'. And not all of us are competitive in crossdressing, either. I believe that a lot of the picture threads you refer to are simply guys who desparately want reinforcing feedback that tells them that they pass, that they could be a beautiful female should they want to become one.
Also please remember the tremendous sense of guilt virtually every male is imprinted with throughout our entire lives, that to be anything feminine it the worst possible thing we can be, and if we dare to do it or even worse, enjoy and embrace it, then we are the lowest of the low, the worst examples of what humans can be. After all, much of society detests us, finds us repulsive, want us banished away from their children lest they become 'infected' with the transgender thoughts. And it leaves perhaps 95% of us without any love or affection from anyone at all; and that's a killer. We can do without sex, at least with other people. Basic sexual urges and needs can be satisfied by masturbation; but the need for physical affection cannot be fulfilled alone; you can't give yourself a hug, you can't cry on your own shoulder when you're sad, you can't comfort yourself when someone you know dies. The stress of all this, of course, eventually wears us down, making us more susceptible to infections disease, autoimmune disorders, high blood pressure, all sorts of health problems. The worst are the addictions, the desparate attempts at coping mechanisms when all else has failed; alcoholism, drug addiction, eating disorders (that's mine, more on that later).

. What I don't understand is how it becomes THAT much bigger when you're older, growing from a simple, regular enjoyment of women's clothing to the point where you're using a female name, outing yourself to family and shopping at Walmart in a wig.
A lot of us subconsciously suppress the desire, even the thoughts about crossdressing, nearly 100% of the time. Consider when you're physically hungry; sure, you can hold off, even though your stomach is growling for something. But it's constantly there, reminding you that it's empty, and the more you ignore it, the stronger the signals that it's empty become, sometimes even to the point of pain, and at some point you simply cannot ignore it anymore. Crossdressing is the same way, just in the brain. And of course, over the years, it all builds up, sometimes eventually 'exploding' when we can't hold it back anymore. Let's face it, a great percentage of us really believe in miracles, and believe that if we keep praying, eventually god will hear us and help us. As life goes on, it becomes clear that it's never going to happen. So we start to take things into our own hands, sometimes even to the point of fully transitioning and sexual reassignment surgery. And for those, the positive reinforcement about how much we can be accepted as a female is critical. So for that I truly wish you don't be too downtrotten on the guys who want to be told how pretty they are and how well they pass. A lot of us realize that it's not true, it just feels nice to be told it, and here, getting a message from someone with a female name, with an avatar of an at least somewhat passable mtf, we can sort of believe for a while that REAL GG's will accept us that way, too.
I hope this helps answer your questions. For more insight, click on the link to my bio in which you'll discover how a normal boy can become TS, or at least believe he is, and by believing that through childhood years it becomes a permanent part of who he is.

[Talisker]

Tinkerbell - I can understand that you get the impression from this forum that it becomes "THAT much bigger". However I think a lot of that is because for those who post most regularly it is a big part of their lives. There are many more, perhaps even a silent majority, for whom it does not take over their lives. Don't get me wrong I like to crossdress and try to look good, sometimes go out shopping etc but its a once every 3 or 4 month thing and hasnt really changed much. There are still no signs yet of me developing a female personality. Still just me in a dress. Many men stay at the panties and lingerie stage and dont 'progress' if you can call it that.

[Tracii G]

I find it relaxing to step out of one gender presentation and into another and I don't think its leading to anything.
I really don't like my male side all that much and enjoy my female side tremendously.

[Zylia]

Essentially, this is another way of asking "why do cross-dressers exist" (all cross-dressers identify as male as per common definitions) and that question doesn't really have an answer yet. Paula's and Alex's explanations ring true to me, but what you really should take away from it is that it's more complicated than a case of healthy curiosity turned into a less healthy habit or obsession. It's a (benign) psychological condition.

I wouldn't overvalue the whole name thing though. I assume that Tinkerbell isn't your real name either, although that would be pretty awesome.

[Amanda M]

Tinkerbell - Hi! You experiment with wearing female clothing. It feels good. You experiment some more. It feels better. Probably to a great extent it is just normal human behavior.

People behave the way they do because their behavior brings a reward. The reward can be almost anything - getting away with being 'naughty', feeling physically or mentally good, enjoying looking feminine - endless possibilities. The tendency is of course to repeat behavior than brings a reward -and that behavior will persist until either the reward disappears, or the disadvantages outweigh the perceived benefits.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Interesting answers! (Hi Amanda :) )

Zylia, you made me laugh with the name comment. I don't think I'd survive my life of the reluctant soccer mom for very long, calling myself Tinkerbell. I guess the names are not so important then? Makes sense that it's a sort of 'undercover' tool, as mine is.

And Paula, as always you make sense :) But so do those saying it's fun and uncomplicated and not everyone even reaches the level I'm speaking of. My H hasn't, but I've seen potential and it always puzzles me. He never seems upset with the level he's at so I always wonder if he's not just pushing the envelope because it's there to push?

Wow, I tell you, it's seriously hard to come at all this from a GG position. I try to put myself in the place of everyone here and fail every time. My head always goes back to the 'I don't get it!' place I'm caught.

I also thought I'd mention that I don't question the existence of crossdressers. In my mind, human life is an eclectic thing and it takes all types. You're as natural as the next person. I'm just confused about the path it takes as I know personally I've taken similar paths with things and just never ended up in the same place as many here.

Anyway, thanks for trying to help me understand all this when I know many here don't understand either. My H doesn't realise it, but our currently happier marriage is directly related to my time here x

Edit: And Alex, I wanted to say that your post really moved me. It sounds like such a lonely, difficult place to be, yet entirely out of your hands. I'm going to read your bio as maybe it will help me understand some of this. And it's true, and keeps me infinitely sad on the other side, that understanding and living with all this can be so very hard. I wish every day that I could be a more accepting wife. I can't even see my H dressed! But I just can't, and believe me I've tried, and just as you're hard wired I guess I am, too. Not fair, is it?

[Amanda M]

Tinkerbell - I really admire the effort you are putting into these issues. I wish I could help you somehow, but all I can really do is to encourage you in what you are doing.

For me, it's delightful to know that you have found help here. It would be great if I had the answers, but heck, but I don't fully understand myself!! Meantime, take care of each other.

Amanda.

[JenniferYager]

Things stick for a variety of reasons. I've tried all sorts of hobbies. Some stuck, and some didn't. I found many of them would stick while I was around certain people, but not after they (or I left). Crossdressing was one that stuck even when I'm in a "non-permissive" environment, where I have no support and it is hard to crossdress safely. I can only think that it has something to do with how your brain is wired.

The key piece is that even when we try to get rid of it, it comes back. Crossdressing is not easy. If it would go away, I'd be OK with that. But it's not, and the more most of us deny it, the worse we feel.

As for male competitiveness, I find I'm less competitive when I'm dressed. I'm more concerned about looking good because I want to look good, and look good for others, not that I want to look better than others. I'm trying to mimic other girls, not be better than them.

[Claire Cook]

Tinkerbell,

I so enjoy your thoughtful posts and this is certainly one of them. (I wish we had more GG's entering into our discussions.) I can only speak for myself: I do think that for me cross-dressing is innate, and it was always part of my personality. It's like I'm now realizing what was always there. So when I out myself, or am out and about, it's just the natural expression of who I am. Competition? If anything, I repress those male competitive urges -- and am much calmer for it. No, I'm not trying to compete with women or other CD's when I dress -- I just want to express me, as naturally as possible. I don't know if this answers your question, but at least that's how I feel.




What I don't understand is how it becomes THAT much bigger when you're older, growing from a simple, regular enjoyment of women's clothing to the point where you're using a female name, outing yourself to family and shopping at Walmart in a wig. :)

I'll try to answer that question with a question: why do women wear wigs (Dolly Parton wrote that she never leaves home without one), and why do women with mastectomies wear mastectomy forms or have breast reconstruction? I guess because they look better and feel more natural that way. Hopefully I do too. :battingeyelashes: When I'm dressed, my GG friends who know me as male and female call me Claire ... it just seems more natural that way.


My belief is that it's because they suffer from a progressive, if milder, form of gender dysphoria, and over time it gets worse. It also comes and goes episodically.


Paula, I hope this isn't too flip a response, but I'd rather call it gender gifted. I'm happy presenting as male, and probably happier presenting as female. And I would hope being "gender gifted" means I am learning to be more sympathetic and empathetic with women. Getting worse? Ummm ... I think it's getting better!

[mykell]

hi tink,

women's clothes are more fun, variety of styles, colors, materials, i pity a man who hasnt tried on a pair of nylons,

combined with Alex's comments its conditioning at a young age for me, the name was chosen as i saw it as protocol here when i joined, picked it then,

outing myself to my wife was the most liberating experience iv had in life, especially since she didnt make me leave,
felt as if i was released from my living hell that this secrete pleasures desire had me entombed in, end of a prison sentence say.
as far as competitive, not so much, more wanting to be proficient at/with the task, and its cheaper than a corvette or boat !

so im not a fig farmer, but iv become at peace enjoying figs....


be glad your real name is not tinkerbell, disney would be knocking at the door for royalties.
and i would like to thank you for being here participating, educating and supporting with us.....joining the group has helped me so much !!

i too will be researching alex's bio thread later today...

[eileendover]

My head always goes back to the 'I don't get it!' place I'm caught.
You and us both, Tink!
At some point, many of us come to the conclusion that the "why" will remain a mystery, or it really wouldn't matter even if we DID know why. I often think about how I'd like to move forward, but I don't really worry about how I got here.

[ophelia]

Does it occur that the "cross" in crossdressing has to do with our 90 degree conflict with what "current" society has determined to be male or female fashion? While women were liberated fashion-wise long before Catherine Hepburn and freely don hats, boots, pants, pith helmets and do not suffer bias, derision and homophobic delusionary attacks the way a man in an Easter bonnet would.
I've said before that we being male already have it in our genetic makeup to "display" as the more active player in the prime human directive of procreation. So it is natural for males to embrace colour, texture, design in makeup, hair and fashion.
We as crossdressers are merely keying into and acknowledging what has been there all along.
It is the rest of society which has taken a left turn from reality.

[Erica Marie]

You know I REALLY wish I had an answer to your question. Then maybe I could understand my own self.
I have seen so many stages of this, from wearing panties and lingerie as a teen for curiosity, to trying make up and wigs and a complete look, to sort of where I am now. I know to a point I have GD but not to the extent that I hate my male self. Sure I would prefer to be a female, yes even though most women say its not all its cracked up to be. Now I am leaning more towards a gender neutral or gender fluid look. I prefer not to flip-flop between man and crossdressed anymore. If I can mix a bit of female/male into my everyday life I start to feel most comfortable with myself. Only problem I face or should I say fear, is how far can I take it before people start questioning me and I have to explain myself.

[EllenJo]

Tinkerbell you have asked a very interesting question. I am not sure that there is any one answer but here is mine. As a teenager I was hooked after trying on my sisters panty girdle. I had always wondered about all of the various things she had in her lingere drawer. She is older than I am and when she reached puberty my mother took her out and bought all kinds of things, bras, panites, girdles (it was the 60's) hosiery, garterbelts, slips, camisoles. When I reached puberty I got the same old package of tighty whiteties just in a bigger size. The night that I was alone in the house and went through her things was amazing. I dressed up and looked in the mirror and for the first time I felt pretty. I found that I liked feeling pretty. Not that there wasn't a sexual thing going on because at that age everything was sexual. However the feeling of wanting to feel pretty stayed to this day.

You mention the competiveness of the male gender and you are right, we seem to always trying to be more of a man. When I am dressed, I become Ellen Jo and I am no longer competitive, I am at peace. All of the male responsibilities disappear for a while. Working two jobs, taking care of a wife with health issues, being responsible for a handicapped daughter. For a little while it becomes someone elses life and Ellen Jo can relax. Of course that means that Ellen Jo becomes responsible for the housework but she enjoys cooking and cleaning while looking pretty. A skirt and blouse with appropriate underthings, a little make up and wig and she can put the house in order in no time. My wife calls me Suzy Homaker when I am in this mode. So for me maybe it comes down to escaping for awhile. I don't care about a lot of psycho babel to attempt to put myself into some kind of catagory, I just know that I like to look pretty (even though I am a big hairy guy in a dress) and it helps me get through my life.

[kimdl93]

Cause and effect are not always easy to distinguish. I honestly do not think that CDing is at a fundamental level, learned behavior. What people may do is assume that the first recollection of an experience "caused" them to become a CDr. But there are problems. First, many young children explore gender roles by dressing up. Only a few connect with CDing on that deeper level. Those few who grow up to be CDrs, whether they identify as TG or not, very likely are wired, perhaps genetically or by hormonal exposure in the womb, to the attraction to feminine things.

[Krisi]

For the most part, we only know each other from this forum. On this forum we write about our crossdressing but many of us live normal male lives the majority of the time. Also, this forum attracts members and posters from all over the world. What you read here is a tiny fraction of the world's population.

There are some people here who seem to have crossed over into never-never land, but again, it's the Internet and again, it's a very small fraction of the population.

As for using a female name, it would seem pretty silly to be walking around in boobs and a skirt as "George" or "Bruce". When I get dressed up, I am "Krisi". Just like the boobs and wig, it's part of the presentation.

[Dianne S]

My belief is that it's because they suffer from a progressive, if milder, form of gender dysphoria,

This. I agree completely. On another forum, someone asked (of crossdressers): "If you could magically, instantly and painlessly turn your body into a woman's body, would you?" and the answers were overwhelmingly "Yes". I think crossdressing and transsexualism are not that different... they are just different points on a spectrum. For most crossdressers, the occasional presentation as female is enough to satisfy and they don't feel the need to undergo the extremely difficult process of transition... but they would if it were magically easy.

[Lucy_Bella]

Hi Tinkerbell,

There are many reasons why as you can see ..I for one do not find the need to leave my closet but I could never say that it has always been that way..

I have had the urge to be seen but that has now past ..Looking back ,I have to tied the urge to be seen as excitement or a thrill in a non "gender identifying way" ..Never have gone out except to a safe club once and I've lost that urge since..I feel it was associated more to a sexual thrill ..

I started at a young age ,as far back as I can remember but I have never felt like a girl or identified as one ..By saying that it was more of a sexual thrill to me but not being what most would think one as to being and more like intensifying the "o" experience ..

[Katey888]

Tinks - you do ask some good questions but any that start with 'WHY?' have me reaching for the aspirins immediately... however...

I think it is already an innate part of us - as has been said many times, I could find much easier pastimes to satisfy spending time and money but nothing else makes me feel as comfortable and complete.. Paula Q and Zylia probably summarised it best, but in truth we really don't know definitively - so, I'll go with a benign and mild gender dysphoria, sometimes in remission, often episodic and sometimes progressive.

The fact that there are some here who have had 'symptoms' (if we can call them that!) of CDing made worse by illness and subsequent treatment may indicate that physiological changes later in life contribute to the progression, and lifestyle also would make it easier to accommodate.

I don't really have a female identity - I'm just me - Katey/Kxxxx - and I'm only Katey here. And yes, males are competitive - I think you definitely see traces of that here from some folk, but I also see a lot more non-masculine sensitivity than I'd normally expect - but that might also be because the very manly men here are still kidding themselves...

And I love fresh figs... sadly not native to this part of the world which is justifiably renowned for its WATERCRESS!!! (Yes - it's still raining here..)

And well done for sticking with us, Tinks - if you can get somewhere with your understanding that has to be a good thing for all GGs.. :cheer:

Katey x

[Wildaboutheels]

Apparently you never got the memo? Female Os are likely irrelevant to the survival of the Human Race. They [FEmale Os] have evolved to become a screening mechanism. [although some new research suggests they MAY help direct sperm down the proper highway.

This ^^^ can be easily translated to MALE Os NEED TO BE HIGHLY ADDICTIVE AND EASY... for us Humans to survive as a species.

Clearly Humans are still "prospering".

It's true. Mother Nature DOES know best.

Female clothing items are simply tools to 99% or higher of the CDers on the planet.

We are NOT talking granny dresses and flats here.

It's highly likely that the 99% have never felt any shame or guilt and never "progressed" beyond the "basic CDers wardrobe".

Watch just an episode or two of NGC's Brain Games and the workings of the minds of many CDers becomes obvious and makes perfect sense.

It also accounts for the minds of Joe Doe Public and explains beyond any shadow of a doubt what THEY think and why.

Obviously, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[savannaxdrsser]

A very good questions and i cant help with agree with all the answers given. It is just how we are wired, I believe we just have a very strong feminine side and wish to express it, wearing womens things is the easiest way, but im sure many of us express it in other ways also. I feel so wonderful when i dress, i feel sexy, and alive! I am so glad we have a place to share that with others. May never answer why, it just Is!

[Lucy Long Legs]

Thank you for posing these questions - as you can see, there are as many answers as there are CDs.

Many masculine women do not wear traditionally feminine clothes but like to wear t shirts, jeans and boots and who cares? The snag is that feminine men are not supposed to wear dresses, hose, heels and make-up like we all do. I am a feminine man, physically and mentally, and respond accordingly!

[Jocelyn Quivers]

For me it deals with the very unique history, issues, and dilemmas that "cross dressing" has always caused and how I chose to deal with those issues (mainly by ignoring them/trying to cure myself) during childhood, adolescence, teenage years, early adulthood, current adulthood all formed the perfect storm which caused "Jocelyn Quivers" to come to life. Cross dressing was always the forbidden taboo in my earlier years, it was reinforced that it is wrong.

First by my parents (who I'm not blaming, that's just the way things were back in those pre-internet days), which led to me self-enforcing it to the point of a fanatical/extremist ideology (cross dressing/anything that’s not 100% male is heresy, evil, must never be allowed to happen), also being assisted by what was presented in popular culture at the time Psycho, Dressed To Kill, Silence of The Lambs, Jerry Springer, COPS, daily news reports, etc. As I've stated before all of my attempts at not cross dressing began building up much like a small tumor that was never removed or even diagnosed until it's spread to the bones, all organs etc. and basically can no longer be removed (I know a very morbid comparison my apologies to any cancer victims survivors, or those with family members who have suffered from that).

By the time I accepted it myself, it was kind of the equivalent of living in a former Eastern Bloc country experiencing the fall of communism, Berlin Wall, dissolution of the USSR, and being able to experience for the first time everything that you had been denied your entire life. In further explanation once I experienced that initial freedom I began to realize how much of my own potential life I lost, and waited by my own self-imposed prison for those first 2 1/2 decades of life. As I am getting very close to 40, I am looking back on my life, wishing wondering if I only started my kind half *ssd transitioning I'm going through now, how much more I would have benefited, and been a lot further along than where I am now. Which is why I spend basically all of my free time towards that goal, I’m not getting any younger, and my wrinkles are getting harder and harder to hide. Make up can only do so much! :eek:

I guess a quick summarized answer is take any activity which was considered highly immoral, illegal, bordering criminal is all of a sudden de-criminalized equals making up for a lot of lost time, and a bordering hedonistic over indulgence experiencing that "forbidden fruit." Also you are quite correct about competitiveness in the picture gallery (at least with me:o). That's what all of the training, hard work, saying your prayers, taking your vitamins are for brother! Oops wrong forum, I meant sister:o.

[sarahcsc]

Hi Tinkerbell,

I'll make sure to let you know when I figure this one out. But I have some theories that is worth discussing.

1. Why do some boys develop weird childhood curiosity like crossdressing and some don't? Childhood curiosity is a healthy thing to nurture and it is the way a child explore his/her external world ie. crawling around, putting everything in mouth, asking questions. The child eventually learns what feels comfortable or what soothes their anxiety which they subsequently learn to like and attach themselves to ie. breast/breast milk = mother. Most of us move further away from our mothers as we grow older which is normal as the brain begins to mature and seek out more meaningful attachments. We start forming attachments to more intangible things as new neural circuitry is being formed in the brain because we are becoming more and more complex and intelligent beings as we grow older. However, despite all the new attachments formed, what lays underneath is still our primal attachment to our mothers. I dare say, that crossdressing is a fantasy played out by children (initially) to allay their separation anxiety from their mothers. How? Because crossdressing allows the child to assume for a brief moment, which remotely resembles a member of the opposite sex. In the case of the child, it is most likely means he wants to be his mother because he doesn't just want to be WITH her, he wants to be ONE with her. But why crossdressing in young boys? Well, the question is, why not?

2. So why do some boys grow out of their curiosity while others take a very different turn? I believe this is where genetics plays an important role. There is no doubt that every child feels anxious when separated from their mothers especially if the separation was traumatic. Although most children find different ways to deal with their anxiety, some resort to crossdressing while others don't. But those of us who are born with a slightly different brain wiring are perhaps more likely to carry on with the crossdressing behaviour not because it soothes their separation anxiety, but because something just "made sense" and resonates with their being. This is where I believe the distinction happens between a crossdresser, a TG, and other individuals.

3. As you would've known, some TGs knew they were trapped in a wrong body at a very early age while some just keep dressing for ages before they finally decided that they too were trapped in a wrong body. But why is this? This is most likely a combination of "nature and nurture". In terms of "nature", I believe CDs and TGs have very different brain wiring. The neural circuitry of some TGs are so characteristically of the opposite gender that they feel tormented right from a very young age as the brain begins to mature and develop "self-awareness". The brain realizes that it is so female, and yet the body is all male. The CDs however have neural circuitry of both genders which often becomes activated only when confronted with certain environmental stimuli, and one also often more dominant than another depending on the hormones their body produce. In which case, CDs are pretty capable in switching between the two roles, although they may not have a lot of control over it, hence crossdressing is not something that can be stopped voluntarily. However, how a person chooses to express their desire or distress also depends heavily on their culture(s) which is determined geographically (ie. Western countries, Middle eastern countries, Asian countries have very different cultures), their time in their life (ie. a younger person fear very different things compared to an older person), their innate personalities, and probably also the epoch in which we're born in (ie. Middle ages, modern age, information technology age). Just because we all have unfulfilled fantasies, not all of us gets the opportunity to live them out. I believe there are CDs/TGs out there who are bound to their social roles and duties that transitioning would not necessarily equate to happiness, despite feeling like they're trapped in a wrong body.

4. So why do some of the part time CDs eventually become a fulltime CD, and some of them even undergo surgery? What is happening to their neural circuitry? I wondered about this too for awhile and I have yet to come up with any convincing theory. However, what I do know is that most fulltime CDs (at least here on the forum) are relatively older CDs. What does this mean? Well... if you think about it, older CDs are normally wiser and much less anxious because of the life experiences they've accumulated. This could perhaps be less of a barrier to crossdressing for an older CDer compared to a young man who is still keen in dating but afraid of what crossdressing might do to his masculinity. Older folks tend to more financially secure as well compared to the younger folks. They are more likely able to be able to afford investing in a different life while throwing away the old, more able to afford the costs of surgery and lifelong HRT, and less likely to jeapordize their career or source of income unlike a young person with still so much to prove. Another plausible theory is that fact that men produces lesser testosterone as they age which means the dominant male circuitry in the brain is beginning to lose dominance while the female circuitry assumes center stage. Some of them were probably TGs at heart and had always wanted to transition but waiting for the most opportune moment! The theories are many so take your pick? Lol.

Finally, these are nothing but MY silly theories and are based in no part on any published scientific research. I base my theories on careful observations of myself and the CDs here. :)

Thank you for such a wonderful topic!

[Rhonda Jean]

I'm not professionally qualified to give this answer, but that hasn't stopped me before!

For me, I think that everything "girly" I do releases endorphins in my brain. It excites a pleasure center in my brain. I receive a "maintenance dose" by doing the everyday things like wearing panties, keeping my legs shaved, keeping my hair long and my toes polished. I get a bigger rush the more I do. It is drug-like addictive. I get pleasure from it, thus I continue to seek more of it.

I suspect that is a crossdresser's version, not a transsexual's version.

[Judith96a]

Tinkerbell,
I suspect that if I could wear a dress and high heels any time I fancied then the crossdressing wouldn't be such a "thing". But I can't. Therefore, anticipating, planning for and enjoying those rare occasions when I CAN present as Judith becomes important (along with the frustrations of having to maintain a "manly" presentation 99% of the time) and the crossdressing is a "thing"!

As for the photos / competitive thing - the only things that I'm competing with are the unrealistic vision in my head as to what Judith could / should look like and the overwhelming reality of my uncooperative body!

Hugs
Judith

[ReineD]

For me, I think that everything "girly" I do releases endorphins in my brain. It excites a pleasure center in my brain. I receive a "maintenance dose" by doing the everyday things like wearing panties, keeping my legs shaved, keeping my hair long and my toes polished. I get a bigger rush the more I do. It is drug-like addictive. I get pleasure from it, thus I continue to seek more of it.

I suspect that is a crossdresser's version, not a transsexual's version.

I totally agree with Rhonda. I base my opinion on having read literally tens of thousands of posts here over the years and having developed a good sense of what is average for members of this forum.

Transsexuals suffer from Gender Dysphoria. They are unhappy with their male sex (hence the word transsexual). Crossdressers are not unhappy with their male sex. They do not suffer GD. Someone earlier mentioned the silent majority of members who do not believe they want to be female. I totally agree with this as well.

There are also people who are gender-nonconforming, who wish to live in a state that is neither binary male nor female. These are also people who might also suffer from a degree of GD.

As to your question - is it innate for crossdressers, I do think that the brain rewires itself after having released endorphins for so long. An attachment to presenting femme has formed, and dressing morphs to something that is done for comfort.

[Jane P]

Wow, I tell you, it's seriously hard to come at all this from a GG position. I try to put myself in the place of everyone here and fail every time. My head always goes back to the 'I don't get it!' place I'm caught


I still find myself in the " I don't get it place" . There is no logical reason for it , and that is what kills me . Knowing that I am not the only one gives me some comfort , but I still hung up on the why.

Jonnie

[linda lynn]

I find it relaxing to step out of one gender presentation and into another and I don't think its leading to anything.
I really don't like my male side all that much and enjoy my female side tremendously.

I really love my female side most of the time, the calm that it gives me is very nice, and like you said I don't like my male side very much either.

[Nadine Spirit]

1) Why does crossdressing eventually become an innate part of your personality?

(2) Most here say they discovered CD out of childish curiosity - that you felt 'drawn' to try on female clothing. I don't find this unusual, to be honest, as kids love to do things that are taboo.

(3) What I don't understand is how it becomes THAT much bigger when you're older, growing from a simple, regular enjoyment of women's clothing to the point where you're using a female name, outing yourself to family and shopping at Walmart in a wig.

(4) So why does a simple crossdressing curiosity eventually become an identity for so many here? Is crossdressing really that innate, or does natural male competitiveness mean you are driven to perfect all interests, and yes, you would eventually start a fig farm, lol.

(5) And don't pretend you're all not competitive either. Just check out the picture threads!! :)

Such a thinker Tink! All I can do is give my opinion:
(oh and yes I identify as male - meaning I don't think I am really a woman inside)

1 - Cross dressing did not eventually become an innate part of my personality, it simply always was.

2 - Nope I did not discover it out of childish curiosity of the taboo. I did not know it was weird or wrong or taboo to play with barbies or to play dress up or to imitate things my sister and mother were doing. I learned as I got older it was acceptable to imitate my dad wearing a suit or shaving his face, even though I had no beard, but it is seen as weird or wrong for me to imitate my mom in heels and a dress or shaving her legs. I was not drawn to it, I just did these things and thought it was totally normal.

3 - It has not become bigger. I use a female name, but only when I am online as Nadine, or dressed IRL as Nadine. I frequently go in public with my wife, it would be quite odd for her to refer to me with a male name. I don't out myself to everyone, only those that I think matter. And yes I wear a wig, I would grow out my hair if I could, and occasionally I go to Walmart, probably because I need to buy something and if I am at Walmart it is simply because it is less expensive to buy it there.

4 - For me this was never a simple cross dressing curiosity and it did not become an identity, it was my identity and I was shown/told by society that it was wrong for me to behave the way I did when I was a child. As a 6 or 7 year old I could play with barbies and dress in whatever clothes I wanted to and nobody said anything, but by 8, 9, 10, I was being told that I needed to change my behavior as it was not appropriate for a boy to like the things I liked. It was okay that I liked to work with tools, it was not okay to play with the Easy Bake Oven. So yes for me cross dressing was fully innate.

5 - I am fully competitive. But mostly with myself. I am constantly challenging myself to improve in just about every aspect of my life. Do I try and improve my female appearance, yup. Do I try and improve my male appearance, yup. If I liked figs all that much would I try and grow them, probably. (I would not quit my job and start farming figs, nor am I quitting my job and You should see all of the fruit and vegies that grow at my house. I have quite the mini farm actually. But why is it any different than trying to be the best duck hunter I can be or the best driver, or the best at my job, or the best husband, or the best cross dresser? I have an innate desire to cross dress but I also have developed a desire to push myself in all that I do.

[NicoleScott]

Tink, you directed your question to those who identify as males, but received responses from some that don't. Keep this in mind when considering those responses, because (as you know, and why you asked for male-identity responses), the point of view is different.
I don't agree with your premise that we put on that first thing out of curiosity. But I do agree that we were drawn to do so. But not out of curiosity. And since we dress in different ways, to different extents, in different preferred styles, in different frequency and duration, the things that drive us to dress are different. Some think they were born with the drive, or at least with that feminine identity that makes crossdressing feel right for them. But you asked from those who identify as male, and for me, I think there was some event(s) that happened in very early childhood that (in the best scientific terms I can come up with) tickled my pleasure button.
While I have always identified as a male who just likes to transform occasionally, it makes more sense to me to have a female name, pic, online identity, etc. And since I'm not out publicly, I don't want to use my real name, so a female one makes sense to me.
While there is some internal drive to crossdress and that's why I do it, I also think it's fun, exciting, and challenging.

[Dana M]

Hi Tinkerbell,
Nice Question! For me, It was like you mentioned in your original post. It started out as doing something that was taboo. Like many here it also started with a sexual component. I guess you could say It was a way to be with a woman without actually being with a woman. Eventually, it became less focused on the sexual aspect and more about how the clothes felt. When I was younger, I always got along a little better with the girls then the boys. I tend to be a big teddy bear. Large, cuddly, empathetic, and a good listener,someone the ladies would confide in. I was treated like a girlfriend to them. Sometime I thought, if they treat me like a girlfriend, maybe I could dress like one. For the longest time, I was ashamed about my cding. After years of struggling with it , I finally acccepted Cding. Since It does hurt anyone.

P.S. For me there was a practical side too. Being a large person, It is sometime difficult to get some items of clothing without going to a specialty store.(I.e. Underwear, etc) But I have found it easier to obtain similiar items of clothing that fit in the Women's Department. Your Walmart comment is a good case in point.

[Lorileah]

well this went away from the original question of "for those who identify as male". Tinkerbell if you just want the ones who still identify as male who dress not trying to be female, let me know. Right now it is open season.

We know that many GGs "don't get it". I don't get skydiving or accounting or some TV shows or certain sports. I don't want to put this in a hobby category but comparatively that may be the easiest. Why does anyone do things that others don't enjoy? If you spent your life trying to figure that out...it would be something I don't understand. When we don't understand it it makes it even harder to explain it to others. There may be a reason like asking "why is the sky blue" or "why does the wind blow" a scientist can tell you the technical part, but you may not "get it" even then

[Debra Russell]

?After you ate the fig...did you want to be one?.......:brolleyes::idontknow:......Debra

[Beverley Sims]

If I knew the answers to your questions, I would be out there formulating an antidote for those that want it.

Lorileah,
Sky diving and bungy jumping are foolish pursuits, both come with a great adrenalin rush I am told...

I just found bungy jumping something I needed to do because they all told me I shouldn't do it.

Another one of my bucket list. :)

[ReineD]

well this went away from the original question of "for those who identify as male". Tinkerbell if you just want the ones who still identify as male who dress not trying to be female, let me know. Right now it is open season.

Gosh, since I didn't see a specific request for CD, GG, or TS in the title, it went by me. :facepalm:

Tink, let me know if you don't want me to participate in this thread. I'll delete both my prior response and this one.

[PaulaQ]

And Paula, as always you make sense :) But so do those saying it's fun and uncomplicated and not everyone even reaches the level I'm speaking of. My H hasn't, but I've seen potential and it always puzzles me. He never seems upset with the level he's at so I always wonder if he's not just pushing the envelope because it's there to push?


Look - I freely admit I could be wrong - but I'm arrogant and don't think that I am. I think it's really difficult to judge the internal pressures someone deals with - that's GD. I think this gives impetus to go further, also I suspect that forums like this one, and some feelings of acceptance lower the inhibitions that keep this stuff in check. Gender stuff - whatever you want to call it - wants out. Our personalities and defense mechanisms hold it at bay. You weaken those defenses, it'll push until it reaches some sort of equilibrium. I believe this is why you'll see many CDs sort of reach a level, and kind of stay there, maybe gradually doing a bit more over time. Then you get people like me, who's GD is incredibly violent, energetic, and destructive - it ripped its way out of me last year, and could easily have destroyed me, had I not started to transition.

So yes, he pushes the envelope because it's there to be pushed. The stronger the opposing forces are against it, the less the distance it will go - but it will increase the internal pressure a lot. What you really want is to find a situation where these all balance out reasonably well, so that the person only periodically CDs, doesn't have a female identity, and is able to function in their assigned at birth role as a reasonably stable and happy person. A lot of us on this forum find such a balance, but many don't, and for some, like me, such a balance is simply impossible and we explode.

I think you'll find that there is a strong belief by many on the forum here that such a balance is achievable within the confines of something that still mostly looks like a normal marriage.

edit:
@Lorileah - shame on you! It's possible, although unlikely, that Reine could identify as male! I don't, so I probably shouldn't have replied - but I used to, and so I took some liberties.

[Chickhe]

Could be that our entire lives we feel pressured to conform. When you hit a certain age and security you don't care as much what other people think and let your hair down. Personally, I just enjoy the experience and it is form of vacation, but it took years and years to get over the stigma and to learn about it. My guess, the newer gererations will have less issues with it and will bust out sooner. ...to answer your question, its always been a part of me, I just never knew how to explain it to anyone else without causing huge complications.

[NicoleScott]

It's not uncommon for some GG's who are already attractive to desire to make themselves prettier and sexier. So why shouldn't CDers?

[Brittany CD]

That's a good question, I don't think anyone can really know. All I know is I'm a guy and I love being a woman

[Dana M]

Reine,

Please do not delete your posts in this thread. Both you and Tinkerbell are great sounding boards for the GG prospective. I like what you ladies have to bring to our discussions.
You help bring another side for the rest of us to consider.

P.S.
Sorry Tinkerbell I felt we needed both your voices here.

[susan54]

Wow. This is the best question ever on this Forum. I always identify as male, however dressed.I would regard myself as masculine but not macho. I am so glad I am attracted to women - they are wonderful, but I would not want to be one. The only aspect of womanhood I envy is the clothing, but it is not unfulfilled envy - I wear women's clothes, I have a LOT of them, and I wear them a lot - most of my free time in fact. Including boobs and bra, but not make up or wig. Boobs I can't explain, other than they feel good and make the clothes look good, which I concede sounds a bit lame.

When I go out in these clothes, I have to behave like a woman to avoid causing public consternation. It is an act, but I am quite good at it ... as long as you do not look to closely at my hands or my facial profile. Though I interact with others (almost always women) only about 2% of my time, I get at least ten times as many compliments about how I look when dressed as a woman. I absolutely love these compliments yes, it becomes a competition to out-dress women. All the women involved know I am male (I do not hide it) and openly envy my legs and often my clothes and style. That sort of compliment feels wonderful. When women get such compliments they feel good. So do I - and when I go out it is with the intention of attracting such compliments, though I also love the feel of the clothes, the wind on my tights-clad legs, and the sound of my heels clicking on the pavement. Many women get huge pleasure from lovely clothes and no one suggests it is sexual. Maybe the clothes are inherently lovely and we males who love them are just feeling the same way about them as women. Getting aroused is a bizarre thought - apart from anything else it would ruin the line of the clothes and it does not happen - but I get an adrenaline rush when it goes really well. If a giy was acting as Napoleon and people thought he looked really good as Napoleon and he even convinced some odd people he WAS Napoleon, he would love it - but at no stage would he believe he WAS Napoleon - and his clothes would be fun too.

I do not act at home, or wear make up and wig. Wigs are uncomfortable. Yes, the clothes and (especially) the shoes change your movements, I do not do the sort of body language I do when I go out. If you stay in a hotel or make an appointment for a pedicure where you will wear a complete outfit, it is less hassle if you use a woman's name

As some of the others put it, it is a hobby, and it is fun. In many things I do, I am driven. Ditto dresses, skirts and associated paraphenalia. And Reine D, you are one of the wise voices on here - you are always welcome.

[JennyLynn]

Tried on my moms stockings as a young child. Then bras, lipstick...anything I could find. Always wanted to be feminine. Don't know why. Just in the genes

[Julie Denier]

I wish I could explain why I like crossdressing so much. For me, it did indeed start as a childhood curiosity that went through its ebbs and floes, then started snowballing when I fully dressed for the first time as an adult in my late 30s. How far I take it is a balance between my desire for detail and authenticity vs. my need to stay closeted.

[julia marie]

Good question. As far as THE answer, I just looked and there are 414 people on this forum right now. Why do they dress and why does the desire/need to dress increase with time? Take that 414 and multiply by probably four or five or more (for the different combinations of reasons that each of those 414 -- assuming all are CDs -- could mention). Rather than look for reasons, maybe we think about contributing factors. Thinking of my own life and the possible influencers. Eroticism to start (teen years), curiosity, comfort, bright colors, soft fabrics, some latent homosexuality (?), more curiosity, moving later into the life and thinking "why not', maybe reduced T levels (I know, some dispute this), marriage gone bad, rebellion, opportunity when living alone. I wonder how many of those factors contribute to the start or acceleration. As far as an answer, I'll stop looking and kick back and enjoy.

[Teresa Monsivais]

Hey Tinker-bell this is a very good question. I identify as being male and love being a male. I love suits and ties and shoes and jackets, belts and socks! However, I also love high heel shoes. For me its very arousing and soothing and I dress so I can use heels out in public. I rather get fully dressed and hide behind make-up and a wig so that I can wear heels and hope I go unnoticed. Sometimes I wish I could just wear the high heels without having to get dolled up. I also began using women underwear bc I feel sexy and feeling sexy turns me on just like the heels do. I notice that I try to dress similar to what I am attracted to heels, short skirts, long hair. When I go out as Teresa I do enjoy it but I think I can relate to what you wrote about being competitive and driven to perfect it. I do want to perfect it and would like to be a close to passable as I can (and I may never get there because of my physical characteristics). But not because I want to be a woman but rather to blend in more and not have the spotlight on me. So I begin to work on my mannerisms, the way I dance, walk etc. My voice is something I won't change I don't know why but I don't. So that's what I think. Would I want to be a woman day in and day out, no way you girls go through much just to get out the door and the clothes is very sexy but uncomfortable ( at least the clothes I am interested in). Some of my girlfriends friends know about Teresa but none of my friends know because for me its similar to something I do with my girlfriend that is intimate and considered private. To those I don't know I don't care because I don't know them. So we hang out at places where I don't know anyone.

[docrobbysherry]

Like your style, Tink! I have posted MANY similar question threads that tip toed around this/these subjects when I first arrived here 7 years ago.

I'm a guy and back then, just couldn't understand why CDing wasn't the exciting turn on for everyone that it was/is for me? Remember, I didn't begin dressing until I was over 50. I was simply a guy with NO gender issues up until then. And, as a closet dresser, I didn't get why guys wouldn't want to see an uber hot babe in their mirror?

As a competitive guy I NEVER feel like I'm competing with other dressers or GG's. (Unless it's a costume contest on stage, etc.) I guess I compete with myself as I try to create a fem image that blows my hair back. In my case, that means a miriad of different fem looks. But, others seem to prefer to work at fine tuning the look they've developed over the years. I can understand that in trans, but not exactly in closet CD's.

The trans aspect of dressing had me befuddled for years! I believe I understand that much better now. Folks trying to express who they feel they r. With their looks being important, but NOT the over riding factor. As opposed to me, who strives to present as someone completely different from myself! With looks being everything until recently.

I'm probably learning as much from the posts by the "males" in this thread as u r!

[krissygurl]

Im just exploring what Krissy is to me. Is it an alter ego? Is it who I want to be? Most likeley it is a side of me that enjoys the clothes, the makeup, heels, and just being a fun uninhibited girl. I feel comfortable when I feel feminine but I have no problem with myself as a male and consider myself one, but I do feel more complete with having the option to be anything I want. If wearing female clothes were an excepted option in my secular world I would always wear them. whether its pants, skirts tops whatever. The fit feels much better as well as the fabrics and patterns. But I would still identify myself as a male. there has to be a million different reasons

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Reine, don't you dare go anywhere! :)

Lorileah, it's fine that everyone is commenting. I know I'm probably looking at the male identity side as that's my H, but really, everyone has made such fantastic comments here I want to read them all!

And seriously, I've never seen such thoughtful responses. For people who don't understand themselves, you sure do try. That's more than most people in a lifetime. Self reflection in my mind, is one of those things that makes for more compassionate, accepting people. I wish more people would do it.

And after reading through the different answers and thinking about some of them (gender dysphoria, sexuality, curiosity etc) it got me wondering something I think someone here touched on. What about all the other species where the male is the beautiful one? I mean, the male peacock makes Ru Paul look plain and the male lion has better hair than most of the avatars on this forum! I actually had a chat with a member here a while ago about men historically and how wigs, heels, make up, even skirts were worn. For those in the original question, the men here who still identify as men even when presenting as a woman, could this be a simple case of masculine primping?? I don't see why human men are the only species who don't want to look pretty and show off to the females. So is crossdressing for these men really about femininity? Or could it be about being a peacock, strutting your stuff so to speak :) But, because somewhere along the way, we GG's ended up with the pretty stuff, you're left having to borrow ours?

I hope we didn't steal your gig because that makes me feel bad, lol.

Great, now I've come up with another theory to add to the endless list. I'm starting to like Lorileahs idea that it just is, who cares!

Then again, I also enjoy talking with you all here, and given my propensity to over think everything, chatting here helps keep me sane, and my marriage in one piece :)

[Nadine Spirit]

I really like your deep thoughts. Your name should be Thinkerbell.

[sometimes_miss]

I wish every day that I could be a more accepting wife. I can't even see my H dressed! But I just can't, and believe me I've tried, and just as you're hard wired I guess I am, too. Not fair, is it?
That's part of the problem that a lot of guys here simply either don't understand, or won't accept; that women don't get to choose what turns you on, and off, any more than we do. The tolerance thing is understandable; but guys simply don't understand that women need to be sexually attracted to her mate in order for a marriage to work, and that sexual attraction can easily be killed by a lot of things. Otherwise, you'll never be able to be more than 'just good friends'. Men don't need this connection; our sex drive is so strong, that a woman doesn't have to be feminine all the time for us to get turned on, while for women, it's way more than just instant physical, visual appeal. Studies over and over have proven that even on one night stands, women want the same characteristics in a sexual partner that she does in a husband, your inner 'potential mommy' brain is always working. Men have no such qualms, so they don't 'get it'.
And no, life isn't always fair. We just have to do the best with the life we have. What you have to try to learn to do, is 'compartmentalize'. Men do it automatically. Women don't, you're relationship driven and take everything into consideration when dealing with another person's life. You need to separate different parts of your relationship with your husband. Good luck, most women find that extremely difficult.

[harmony]

an earthquake releases the tension between plates the earths surface is made up of.for me,and may be some of the sisters here,presenting as female in society served to ease tension between what is male and female in my inner being.may be us crossdressers are more challenged in that regard?to beginn with we are all individuals who then split into gender with the appropriate appendages.does our condition go back to a point in our development where that split was kind of murky?
the outcome could also be a hermaphrodite.
my name is harmony and i think that,at age 68,i think i have achieved this.after making crossdressing an artistic endevour where every time i went out was a different creation with the outcome to be determined in the process i had a lot of fun.i do not do it any more since the canvas has aged too much and i can center myself without an aid.this may change at any time but it has been a few years now.i do enjoy hanging out with my sisters though!

[Jenniferathome]

...
So why does a simple crossdressing curiosity eventually become an identity for so many here? Is crossdressing really that innate, or does natural male competitiveness mean you are driven to perfect all interests. ....

Hi Tinkerbell, this is an interesting thought. I have sometimes wondered if part of presentation is pure competition. My personality is such that when I do something, I have to do it really well. I don't do anything half-assed. And yet, is it that we progress beyond "curiosity" or is is that we simply can't present as we would like because we have no clue when we are young (or first experimenting)? I think it is much more than just competition, but for me, there is an element of competitiveness as well. Good question.

[mechamoose]

Why does crossdressing eventually become an innate part of your personality?

So why does a simple crossdressing curiosity eventually become an identity for so many here?

People.. all people.. want to look *sharp*, to look *interesting*. You want to be YOU.

Once you internally accept that you are willing to dress as you like rather that what others expect, you have crossed a threshold.

Once you have thrown off those limits, you have a hard time figuring out why those limits were there in the first place.

<3

- MM

[Jilmac]

I started experimenting with female clothes at age 7 after a cousin dared me to wear panties and a dress. In my early years of crossdressing there was much confusion but also much arousal at the look and feel of feminine undergarments. As my dressing progressed, it became clear to me that there was more than fetish, I actually enjoyed my psuedo-feminine persona and realized that I was hard wired to be the way i am. So yes, for me it's innate, I'll never go all the way with SRS but I will always enjoy acting totally feminine at every opportunity.

[ReineD]

What a fun thread! :)


What about all the other species where the male is the beautiful one?

Darwin's sexual selection. It all depends on which sex chooses the other and also how many mates they have.

When females choose males, the males will either develop combat characteristics to fight each other off, or they develop display characteristics to attract the female. They also develop these characteristics to mate with as many females as possible. In humans, however, it is the male who has deliberately chosen the female, so females have had to develop beauty, red lips, shapely breasts, etc, to attract men ... and later on added adornment (jewelry, sexy dresses, makeup), in order to enhance their beauty. Of course, women (at least in recent history) have been free to either accept or refuse the male based on things that women found attractive, such as strength, power, financial security, etc. Traditionally, females have not chased males and this is the one thing I don't think has changed very much, even in our modern times.



I actually had a chat with a member here a while ago about men historically and how wigs, heels, make up, even skirts were worn.

These things were considered a sign of wealth then, but the quantity that men wore definitely looked more masculine compared to what the females were wearing. :)



For those in the original question, the men here who still identify as men even when presenting as a woman, could this be a simple case of masculine primping?? I don't see why human men are the only species who don't want to look pretty and show off to the females. So is crossdressing for these men really about femininity? Or could it be about being a peacock, strutting your stuff so to speak :) But, because somewhere along the way, we GG's ended up with the pretty stuff, you're left having to borrow ours?

Men have their own way of attracting women. They don't have to impress us with their ability to fight tigers anymore, but women are already attracted to certain male physical traits: their pecs, firm abs, wide shoulders, muscular legs, slim hips. I guess this is what motivates younger men to work out. And men certainly aren't devoid of facial beauty! :daydreaming:

https://www.google.com/search?q=handsome+men+list&espv=210&es_sm=91&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GRRjU9GUFNeyyATUooKABQ&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1297&bih=712#q=handsome+men&tbm=isch

This is a side note, but I think that so many people assume CDers are gay because they embellish themselves in ways that women have traditionally embellished themselves in order to attract men, even though I know that most CDers here don't adorn themselves for this reason (except maybe the CDers who participate in the date-a-man threads).

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Um, Reine, thank you for posting that link. I will admit I might have perused it a little longer than planned :o

And it is fascinating to ponder all this. I think maybe your first comment about dopamine is the most logical for someone like my H, or maybe the synesthesia theory I read yesterday. It's amazing how complex we humans are though, isn't it? All the many ways we behave and express ourselves - when I really think about it I do start to wonder what societies problem is with crossdressing. Really, it's just another color in the vast human rainbow and wow are their many colors.

Of course, there might always be the issue with us GGs. I don't know how many struggle with the sexual attraction side of CD like I do, but given how we're hard wired to seek out masculinity, I'd assume a majority of GGs struggle, too? That's hard for the crossdresser and I don't really know the answer to that either. Time? Evolution?!! Or maybe just ordinary old public education letting kids know that there are many types of people in this world and they should give each and every one a fair chance. I often wonder if I'd been raised to see crossdressing as ordinary whether I might feel differently now. Or is my hard wiring just too dang hard!!

Now back to that link...:D

[ReineD]

I often wonder if I'd been raised to see crossdressing as ordinary whether I might feel differently now. Or is my hard wiring just too dang hard!!

If we had all been raised with neighbors, family members or friends who crossdressed, we'd accept it as part of the human fabric! Although I don't think the percentage of males who CD would change so I don't know how ordinary it might be?

Still this wouldn't change a GG's sexual attraction. If she wasn't sexually attracted to a feminine male, then she'd choose someone else to be her husband. She and the CDer might just be good friends.

I think a lot of wives who accept the crossdressing draw a line at the bedroom, so you're not alone there.

I'm glad that your attitudes are beginning to soften a little towards the CDing though! :hugs:

[Marcelle]

Hi Tinkerbell,

A bit late to the game (darn work always getting in the way). I have thought long and hard on the question "How do I identify . . . male or female?" My genetic predisposition is "male, dude, man, guy, bloke, homme." However that is genetics and based on primary and sexual characteristics so yes . . . I am man (beating chest and making grunting noises now :))

Personality wise . . . I am me. My personality does not differ based on my gender presentation. My look differs. Boy me won't be wearing panties under his combat fatigues any time soon. Girl me wears make-up, girl clothes and a wig (my real hair is fighting a hasty retreat from the battle field :heehee:). But this is presentation. My personality stays the same. Both Isha and boy me have the same likes, dislikes and emotional responses but that is because I am only one person . . . me. If I had two distinct personalities . . . well let's say it might be time to visit a therapist who deals in other psych issues. :eek:

However I think you are really interested in why the gender presentation? I can't answer that one. I came to this late in life. Had an inkling when I was younger but that was it. Dressing up as a woman is as natural to me as dressing up as guy is. Have I told people? Yes, because I am not ashamed of who I am and these are good friends who will either support me or choose not to be my friends. I owe them that and to be honest I owe myself. I don't like hiding if I don't have to. Do I have mild GID . . . quite possible but it relates more to how I feel on a given day. Sometimes I want to walk the world as Isha and most other days not so much.

Sorry not a great answer but nonetheless it is all I have. :)

Hugs

Isha

[TinaZ]

What a thought-provoking thread.

As a CDer who very recently progressed to another level maybe my perspective can be as helpful as some of the other answers.

First, I literally have no memory of myself NOT being attracted to lingerie. Meaning, this fascination was prepubescent, so I believe Sarahcsc's answers are important to consider. I fully believe my neurons, or my brain chemistry, reacts unusually. Heck, I still get a little ping in my head when I'm picking out a pair of panties for the day.

But on a psychological level, I recently had a mid-life crisis of sorts, and this is what propelled me to "advance" my dressing from lingerie to skirts, tops, shoes, wigs and make up. Looking at my own mortality forced me to consider what I wanted from CDing. And (so far) it turns out that I feel more like me when I'm dressed. I feel like I don't have to behave in any certain way. It's liberating. I can be take-charge. I can be soft. I can grunt. I can coo. Being "Tina" allows me to cast away what's expected and just be.

Essentially, you asked for responses from those who identify as men, but for me when I'm Tina, I identify as neither or both.

I hope this helps! Thanks for the great questions.

[mechamoose]

Um, Reine, thank you for posting that link. I will admit I might have perused it a little longer than planned :o

Um.. yah. Woof!

[susan54]

This thread gets better and better.

The primping thing is more complex in the human and animal worlds. Animals that hold territory and a harem by aggression are often not the fathers of the offspring - so the females actually mate with non-dominant males, the 'sneaky f*****s'. How do the females benefit from this? I have no idea. Read the scientific press - I don't have the time.

Here we see the suggestion (no more than that) from ReineD (a GG) that women dress to impress men. Most women seem to stress that they dress for their own satisfaction and to impress other women. In my own case, I certainly dress to look and feel good - and when I go out, to impress women. The idea of impressing men when dressed is somewhere I do not want to go, even in my mind. I am fortunate that even at my age (late 50s) I have great legs and my shape looks good in women's clothes - I have even been told I look better in skirts and dresses than in trousers. I get much, much more praise wearing womenswear than menswear and that sort of feedback is an encouragement to go out more. I do not feel feminine or masculine when dressed and out - I am just me. I make an attempt to move in a feminine way which I find good fun (no idea what to make of this - it is possibly the same fun people get out of amateur acting on the stage). When I do my thing I need to be the best possible at it - it is a matter of great pride and satisfaction. On the rare occasions someone I have been interacting with has assumed I am a woman, I do not feel womanly, I feel I have done a job really, really well, and that is very satisfying. In contrast, I feel most masculine when wearing a kilt (I am Scottish). Again - make of that what you will.

Recently I have gone out less frequently because I am getting slightly uncomfortable about the idea of suppressing my masculinity. I still wear a complete outfit of clothes and jewellery in almost all my free time (I even put them on for breakfast on work days) but am increasingly rejecting the idea (I always disliked the messy process) of make-up. So, if anything, I am becoming more assertive about my male identity when dressed. But I can't see myself abandoning the bra and boobs at home - they are just so nice to wear (a modest 36B) and the clotehs look so good with that shape in them.

To put it in a nutshell - like many women I dress to look good and with my shape I seem to look better in women's clothes, by which I mean outfits based on skirts and dresses (never, ever trousers). The clothes feel nice and look nice, and perhaps it is the sort of obsession that many women have for lovely clothes (and it is obsessive for me and them). I have felt increasingly isolated from other cross-dressers because I do not get this girlie-ID thing and this thread has been wonderful - thank you Tinkerbell.

On the other hand the huge public perception of cross-dressing as sexual or gay or gender confusion makes it almost impossible for those of us who just wish to be male in these lovely clothes to get our own reasons across - who would believe us? - we seem to be a very small minority.

[flatlander_48]

I have never invested much time in the Why of what I do. I suspect that even if I had some degree of clinical understanding of why I crossdress, it wouldn't change anything. That said, there is a reason that I suspect provides a clue, but I don't dwell there. I accept it as an IS.

For me, it seems, crossdressing provides, or helps to provide, some degree of balance that wouldn't always happen. I have worked in a male-dominated field for more than 40 years with the accompanying male thought processes and habits. Dressing seems to give me space to detox from that. Presumably it also satisfies other needs as well.

[susan54]

Sorry - one more thought.

The problem for us blokes who want to look nice in what are regarded as women's clothes while still behaving like men is that society does not have a box for us. So they put us in a box they do have. Square peg in round hole. Once women were derided for wearing trousers. Now most women wear trousers and probably have more choice of fabric and styles than men. Men's skirts and even dresses are beginning to appear but are nowhere near mainstream yet. For me a lot of the fun is from putting the right outfit and accessories together, which definitely conveys a female appearance - not sure what to make of that - I just do not feel female. I occasionally go out as a man in a skirt (not yet a dress) and am astonished by the lack of reaction - people seem to wait until I am out of sight/hearing before they stare or make a remark - if they do so at all, and double takes are quite rare. But when I do the whole gig I do try and move like a woman because that is the best way for society to cope with someone dressed like that even if they know it is a man. When I am at home I do not try and move like a woman, but a skirt and heels change the walk of anyone who wears them, including women. When a man wears a kilt there is skirt management and you have to sit with your legs together. I know some men don't, but that is just gross.

Perhaps of society comes to grips with guys who just want to wear tights, skirts, dresses and heels, perhaps with earrings and bangles thrown in, then we can do so more openly. Actually we can already - just not in places where people know you (at least in the UK). What is stopping me is not PUBLIC reaction, it is the reaction of my peers in my line of work - I have a status that is dependent on my authority in my field and it is unrealistic to expect that this status will not be affected by wearing a skirt. There are a few high status men who wear skirts but possibly their status would be even higher if they did not - but part of that might be because their skirts tend to be of styles and length that no women of that age wold dream of wearing in public. It is the actual skirt that looks ridiculous - not the fact that a man is wearing a skirt. The more I think about it we can move this situation on if we do it with taste.

Now that is enough from me for one day. Apologies - but this has really got me thinking.

[Jessica86]

I think it really goes for anything that we do. How come some kids play football at an early age, then never go professional? Not very many go all the way to the NFL. Same with any other hobby or sport you can have as a child. I played trumpet since 5th grade, and went on to play in a regional jazz tournament. No other person I knew from high school or college did that. I found something I was curious about as a child, and I expanded on what I felt would be a great thing for me.

I feel just as good as Jessica as I do being up on a stage playing, or while I was on the field playing football. I love motorcycles also, and used to always modify every bicycle I would get. I have taken it so far, that I work....riding a motorcycle as a job/career every single day. Rain or shine. I just love the experience. Not everyone will take their love for motorcyles as far as I have, but the big question is why shouldn't I? If I am good at it, enjoy it, and it is not illegal why can't I go do it?

I think you see where that is leading to. I'm not a trans person because I choose not to take my dressing that far. I do take it....pretty far....but there will be others that will take it way further than I ever will, and others who wouldn't go as far as I do when I dress.

[mechamoose]

I have often wondered about the difference between humans and animals. In the animal world, it is often the males with all the plumage, while the females tend towards camouflage to protect the cubs/chicks.

Thanks for bringing up the discussion/question!


My lilly white ass is tickled pink
When I listen to the music that makes me think

- RHCP

<3

- MM

[Wildaboutheels]

Here's a little hint for folks who are "confused".

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?179813-Leg-Show-Gurls-and-GG-s-feel-free-amp-welcome-to-post-jpegs-with-or-with-out-heels&highlight=show+us+your+legs

[mechamoose]

If you present in a way that attracts a 'mundane', they you are either trying to be deliberately obfuscatory, or you have been successful. It all depends on what they do next.

Think "The Crying Game". Some HATE to be tricked. Some welcome it.

- MM

[NicoleScott]

What about all the other species where the male is the beautiful one?

Interesting thought, but in the real life of human attraction it would be counter-productive for a man to transform himself into a pretty woman in order to attract a female. Since we're talking about CDers who identify as males, I suspect there are many who are so deeply closeted that they wouldn't dare to join the forum, even anonymously and without a pic, but still like to get pretty for their own pleasure and for nobody else.
In my opinion and in my own experience, CDers (again, who identify as males) like to present the image of a pretty, sexy woman for the man looking into the mirror.

[mechamoose]

In my opinion and in my own experience, CDers (again, who identify as males) like to present the image of a pretty, sexy woman for the man looking into the mirror.

Pretty is relative, isn't it? Lots find Mel Gibson in Braveheart, or Johnny Depp in 'Pirates' movies to be attractive. They are 'pretty' in a male way. There are lots of examples of 'Bad Boys' being breeding stock while less 'pretty' guys are solid homemakers.

- MM

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Tinkerbell, I really don't have an answer other than that it's just who I an and it's just what I do
and after about 67yrs. of doing it I don't see it changing any time soon.

[Sarasometimes]

In a quick answer it is inate from the start. It just is kept hidden out of fear of rejection until the need to express it is strong enough to risk that rejection. I think the reason GG's have a prblem understanding it can be explained by the fact that there is no nice word for the male equivalent of a "tomboy". Sissy, girly boy or momma boy are most common. There aren't magazines with pics of "girlcuts" for guys. A male engineer isn't likely to get support by his co-workers when he wears a cute blouse with lace and a women's watch to work. But a female A boy who tries out for cheer or shows and interest in that which is feminine is rarely widely encouraged.

I understand that you CAN'T see your H dressed but can you envision how you would feel if the shoe (a mid-heel pump if you will) was on the other foot.

[Meg East]

I really don't know what made me a cross dresser. Now it is a positive safe part of my life. I don't view myself as anything more than a male who wears woman's clothes. Obviously, since I find the experience rewarding endorphins must be involved.

Maybe cross dressing allows me a opportunity to step out of my usual role and responsibilities of being a spouse, father, grandfather, business owner, citizen etc. and relax. My skirts and heels are part of my happy place.

[mechamoose]

I guess I'm having a disconnect here..ab

Pretty vs "expected",

We CD to express ourselves. When we do that WE are comfortable, we know that we make THEM uncomfortable,

Do you want to express yourself? (Yes, you do)

If someone has a a problem with you, then THEY have a problem with YOU.

- MM

[Tina_gm]

For many us who have wondered and pondered and searched for the "reason" I am going to daringly suggest that we searched for that reason in order to stop it. If we knew why, then we could come up with a solution, a fix, something that would block or get rid of our desires to express femininity. Even without knowing the reason, many of us, certainly myself included attempted to block it, and rid it by means of denial, suppression and repression. Those methods work like plugging a hole in a damn that is leaking. Of course what happens is that either the water finds a new point of weakness and or the pressure mounts until the block fails. We begin to spend energy trying to hold back the water until that energy exhausts itself. At least, that is how I can best describe how it was for me.

Now, rather than an all out battle to fight the water (femininity), I am learning to accept that it is there. For me, the existence of both masculinity and femininity can at times just get to be a bit much. I tend to feel more at peace when either of them seems to be dominant. But, often times with me, they seem to be at about the same level. Society has made us be more aware of what is different than what is not. So, if I in whatever way (physical or emotional) display 50% of myself as feminine, that will stand out because I am a male and am suppose to be masculine. My wife struggles with this (she sees the personal emotional stuff) and knows that I dress, although far far less than 50% of the time. my actual dressing time is less than 5% of the time, and of that 5% it is not a complete transformation. Yet, she struggles with that. And of course I struggle too in that while I do not identify as a woman, about half of me identifies as feminine, and far less of the time do I express it.

For me, it is a matter of expressing it when it is a good time, that does not disrupt the life I have built and the life I want and the life I am continuing to travel down, while dealing with a significant part of me that is feminine. It can be a tremendous challenge at times, and not just with society of of that of my wife who feels and reacts similarly as you do, but from within myself, when the masculine and feminine collide at the halfway mark, both sort of getting in the way of the other.

[Lorileah]

Um, Reine, thank you for posting that link. I will admit I might have perused it a little longer than planned :o



interesting that 90% of those photos are dark hair, dark complexion, mostly scruffy beards and no chest hair. (in fact one had no...um...body hair at all). When you could see underarms many were smooth also. 1/3 were very androgynous males whop had the classic facial features many associate with a woman. What exactly is it that is in all those photos that make a woman stop and take pause ( i will tell you it is the lips and smiles in most cases if you poll women, not big smiles but the little "knowing" smile)

[ReineD]

What exactly is it that is in all those photos that make a woman stop and take pause

This actually is fascinating and is useful for the artist to know as well! :)

What makes a man or a woman most attractive is the degree to which their face is average, for example a forehead that is not too big or too small, a nose that is not too prominent, a chin that is not too pointy or too weak, etc. In other words, it is a departure from the average that takes away from our attractiveness. This might explain why beauty ideals are different from culture to culture and throughout time, and it also demonstrates our brains' ability to compute the smallest details. There have been studies, if you care to look them up to read beyond the abstract:

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/1/2/115.abstract

But the following is even more fun!! It's an interactive web site that digitally combines the faces that you choose, and averages them. There are both men and women, and as much fun as it might be here to pick a guy and average his face with a few women :), just start with picking several guys (or several girls) and see the results. The average of the faces will be at the bottom, and you can hover your mouse over the individual faces to compare. In all cases, the facial composite is the most attractive.

http://faceresearch.org/demos/average

There are also other factors that contribute to an attractive face: symmetry and of course youth.

[Nadine Spirit]

I have seen research into the golden ratio and that we as humans find faces that have more instances of the golden ratio to be more attractive.

[Lucy_Bella]

I can relate to those who say they dress in feminine clothing to look pretty ( although it's not common for masculine men to want to look pretty attractive yes pretty no)..For me ,cause I answer for no one else here. I dress in private to look sexy .. So I can understand why some CDers would like to look pretty...

I would also like to add that just because I say I dress under a sexual presentation does't always mean it's a sexual event because as we age the "sex" part of the dressing tends to become only a feel good time nothing physical always happens..For the most part my dressing is to satisfy an urge,relieve stress or it could be sex on any given day/time of presentation.

I would think that a Cder who presents male only would like to look pretty would dress more often and in public verses one who presents to look sexy every so often and hopefully in private

[Georgina]

I don't really know why I first put on female clothing. In the fifties, when I first saw girls in petticoats, I wanted to wear them as well and I did. Back then I felt that it was unfair that only girls were allowed to wear the nicest clothes, and that boys had as much right to wear dresses. That meant that I did not wish to be a girl but wanted to do what girls were allowed to do, such as clothes, long hair and disguise their faces. I was happy to be a male who enjoyed female clothes. I started with underwear and was happy with that for a few years but eventually I wished to find out what it would be like to wear complete female cover. I only became interested in make up and wigs nine years ago. I still believe that guys have as much entitlement to female clothes as women so I have no interest in becoming a woman. I wear a dress or skirt every evening, after work, and at weekends, when home, as normal wear. I rarely do make up as that wastes time when not going out.

[Adriana Moretti]

And don't pretend you're all not competitive either. Just check out the picture threads!! :)

Real women are not competitive and catty?? Noooo....not women.they are never...........just us gals......meow............

[ReineD]

Real women are not competitive and catty??

Women who do compete, do so over men, much like guys fighting it out over a girl. When men aren't in the picture, we are best of friends! :)

The idea that women dress to outdo each other just for the sake of it is pure rot. If women do think this, then they need to look deeper at their motives and discover that it's all about vying for a place on the female pecking order, which is fundamentally a competition for who gets the best mate. That said, in all my life I never had to worry that my female friends would try to take my boyfriend or husband away from me. So there really was no competition.

And maybe some women who are overly materialistic will use their clothing and jewelry to show off their social status. I tend to stay away from women like that, they are boring.

[sometimes_miss]

And maybe some women who are overly materialistic will use their clothing and jewelry to show off their social status. I tend to stay away from women like that, they are boring.
And perhaps the most irritating, is the women with 'ring hand'. You know, the girls who are engaged, have a big rock, and then use their left hand for EVERYTHING just so everyone knows she's engaged and how big that rock is that she got the fella to buy. I see this behavior periodically at work.


I have often wondered about the difference between humans and animals. In the animal world, it is often the males with all the plumage p
Don't kid yourself. It's just that our 'plumage' isn't simple. Women can often spot expensive clothes, shoes, watches, as well as excellent grooming on a guy almost instantly. And don't forget the attraction of a man in military uniform. A huge number of women respond to that visual clue, as well.

[Ferl]

What I don't understand is how it becomes THAT much bigger when you're older, growing from a simple, regular enjoyment of women's clothing to the point where you're using a female name,...

Keep in mind, you are here on a crossdressing forum, the people which have tried it out and found out, that it is not passable wouldn't come her to register. So because of this you will not find many people thinking different in here. But there will be many people who have tried, found out they don't like it and did not do it anymore.
For me the beginning was similar. It was when i was a child and found and tried some old heels lying there in the roof chamber. It was a nice feeling and i went always a little time to the roof chamber and went around there in heels. In the teenager time there was less time for it and so i have years later began to buy some interesting heels on my own. After a while i tried also other woman's clothes and it felt good too and so now it is a hobby for me, sometimes...

[Tinkerbell-GG]

And don't forget the attraction of a man in military uniform. A huge number of women respond to that visual clue, as well.

Ah, so true. Gotta love a soldier's uniform :)

And Reine is right - we do tend to out dress each other and overdress in general when single and looking for a male partner. (It's what men like, after all) If you notice how women dress after marriage and kids, you'll find smart practicality will often override sexy. Not for all women, of course, as I have a friend who dresses like a hooker even when married, but I suspect that's because she marries idiots and is constantly on the lookout for a replacement, lol.

It's fun to have a night out, dressed up for drinking and dancing, but really if no men were there to notice that I looked sexy I probably wouldn't bother to dress sexy. Dinner at a girlfriend's house is a jeans event for me. It would be weird to dress sexy for that! I also think looking nice for ourselves is important too, but that's just as likely to be a tee and jeans with your hair done as a cocktail dress. Cocktail dresses are incredibly uncomfortable in my opinion, and comfort is part of what makes me personally feel good about myself.

Anyway, I forget where all this was going, lol. I think it's fascinating to hear all sides of this topic and so many points of view. I love how everyone here is happy to share their thoughts. I might not understand why you do what you do, but I do know there's many intelligent, compassionate people on this forum. Far more than I encounter in my everyday travels x

[Amanda M]

Ahh, tinkerbelle - you ARE a sad girl. How can you not like a cocktail dress?????? Especially with a cocktail! :battingeyelashes:

[susan54]

In the UK,or at least in my part of the UK, the time when women really go all out with their clothes for a girls night out - dresses, make up,jewellery, the lot. This applies to married and single alike. Participating in a GNO (as me dressed up or as my alter ego Susan) is the one ambition I have yet to fulfil. I am a man who prefers the company of women anyway - most of my personal and work friends are women - but almost always as a man. I have actually been invited to participate in a GNO (yup,fully dressed) but think the fallout would not be worth it. The more feminine the company, both in behaviour and clothing, the more I enjoy it - but so far, very much as a bloke.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Ahh, tinkerbelle - you ARE a sad girl. How can you not like a cocktail dress?????? Especially with a cocktail! :battingeyelashes:

Amanda, I LOVE a cocktail...or three :)

[ReineD]

It's fun to have a night out, dressed up for drinking and dancing, but really if no men were there to notice that I looked sexy I probably wouldn't bother to dress sexy. Dinner at a girlfriend's house is a jeans event for me. It would be weird to dress sexy for that! I also think looking nice for ourselves is important too, but that's just as likely to be a tee and jeans with your hair done as a cocktail dress.

This is EXACTLY how I feel and how my female friends behave as well! We don't dress up when it's just the girls at someone's house. Never! But, if we go out for dinner whether there is mixed company present or not, then I think it's normal to show decorum. As much as I don't dress to impress the girls, my personal sense of pride prevents me from going to a nice restaurant in sweats and sneakers, just as I wouldn't show up at the beach in a cocktail dress. Still, putting on something nice for dinner is entirely different than women who dress to compete for men. :p