Gender all replies are welcomed

[Lucy_Bella]

Gender : " A phoneme that some say happens before live birth with the brain being "hard wired" that continues to grow through out our lives.." Gender can also be taught from the time our brains are developed enough to learn..

Gender can be physical ,mental and social..

Physical, meaning to define Masculine or a Feminine appearance appropriate to your biological birth sex.. That's a guy or that's a girl..

Mental, meaning how one can see them self as.. This can also include opposite of biological birth sex..

Social, meaning a role in a society, this can also include how genders dress different from each other in appearance looks and fashion to match a genders role..

Mods :),I'm not out to start any trouble with any members here I would just like a friendly discussion to learn more about each other ( so in the future I do not offend any others) If this thread gets out of hand or off topic I will welcome you to close this thread but I ask ..Please give it a chance ..:)

As you can see "Gender" varies and what I find incredible is that it can be taught as well .. Would it be fair to say that even though I consider myself a pleasure dresser..,I've taught myself to ( with help from society ) perform in my proper gender role and I've yet discovered the true reasons as to why I cross dress and I may have a MILD form of GID?

It's possible and the fact is that many ( not all) who have GID accept it when they are in their 40's-50's but I do not find this to be true with me.. I've gave it a shot many times but find no truth in this for me.. When I cross-dress Physically I only dress for the attraction ..Mentally I still know of my biological birth sex I am only attracted to the femininity and I do not want to be that gender.. Socially , I only wish to present my role as the biological sex born as it is a private thing and I keep this from society..

Am I saying there will never be a chance for GID to happen to me? Of course not..In fact I am at a higher risk for it to occur( verses non cders) because I enjoy cding after all gender does continue to grow or decrease as we age..

As you can see there are no labels in this thread and I do NOT in any way see myself above,better or superior to any other member of this forum that relates to cross-dressing ..I am trying to have a civil discussion about cross=dressing in hopes that other members can relate or understand me ..Maybe even find that I am not an outcast I am just another member of this forum..

[Saikotsu]

I don't think you're an outcast. From what I've seen and experienced, everyone here experiences gender differently. Gender is a very subjective thing. I identify as gender fluid, but just because I call myself that doesn't mean my experiences are going to totally match up with other gender fluid individuals. That's part of why labels are so controversial. On the one hand, they give a baseline to define what or who a person is, but on the other, no one seems to be able to define those labels in a way that everyone can agree on. I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I hope this helps? I wasn't sure exactly what you were asking.

[typhoidmary]

I think I may have at least a slight case of GID because I would definitely rather have been born female, and I guess to an extent, this is my way of expressing that. I've never really felt it strongly enough to seriously consider becoming trans, I'd have to be completely sure that's what I wanted and I'm not, right now at least.

[Rachael Leigh]

Interesting subject considering Im going thru a bit of a crisis in my dressing right now. If I were to guess for me I guess I'm gender fluid as well, I like being male but I have this need to dress in pretty clothes and it just so happens they sell what I like in women's stores or departments. I love doing makeup to look the part as well.
With that said when I do dress as a guy which is 90 percent of the time I am good with that but don't mind showing my clean shaven legs as a guy, not sure what that means.

[Zylia]

Define GID. I hate to be the person to draw any of the infamous Mr. B's work into this discussion, but if you read the clinical definition of Gender Dysphoria in DSM 5 and many responses on this forum, you will find that a lot of cross-dressers actually fit well inside that box. I believe there is a marked incongruence between many cross-dresser's experienced/expressed gender (albeit with a distinct focus on the physical/tactile side of it) and their assigned gender and some experience significant distress or impairment because of it. In DSM 5, GD and Transvestic Disorder (for lack of a better term) are NOT mutually exclusive. It even acknowledges that some GD 'latecomers' have experienced transvestic behavior with sexual excitement as a precursor.

However, the persistence of this gender incongruence for cross-dressers may be questioned because in some cases it only lasts until the next orgasm and is pretty much gone for at least a couple of minutes. Is it fair to diagnose GD if it's so heavily tied to someone's sexuality? You tell me.

[ReineD]

As you can see "Gender" varies and what I find incredible is that it can be taught as well .. Would it be fair to say that even though I consider myself a pleasure dresser..,I've taught myself to ( with help from society ) perform in my proper gender role and I've yet discovered the true reasons as to why I cross dress and I may have a MILD form of GID?

I don't think you're an outcast either, although you might be conflating several ideas.

Gender is not taught, it is felt. One's sense of gender identity (who we feel we align with ... males, females, or in rarer cases a combination of the two), is innate.

How we behave may be taught and it does change from culture to culture and throughout time. Women years ago learned that their place was in the home and they could only ride their horses side-saddle. Men were taught it was their sole responsibilities to be providers. Many men are still taught it is not OK to cry. And a million other gender-specific role behaviors, some of which have broken down over time.

Pleasure dressing has nothing to do with one's gender identity. Transsexuals do not pleasure dress, they instead permanently wish to align their bodies/presentation/roles to who they feel they are internally.

Men who crossdress for pleasure can and do conform to their male gender roles even though they may occasionally present in a gender-nonconforming manner. Many are still husbands and fathers. In other words, cross-gender expression does not necessarily indicate cross-sex identification, even if a man feels more feminine when dressed ... although I do think the word "feminine" is sometimes confused with "feeling good".

Or another way to put it, just because you find it fun to dress like a girl does not mean that you necessarily have GD and identify as one, especially if you do not feel any distress with being male and with your male sexual functioning. GD is about deeper things than a manner of presentation.

There are, however, transsexuals who wanted to be crossdressers and who thought they were crossdressers, before discovering they had no other choice than to transition. Transsexuality is rare when you consider the full spectrum of TGs.

Milder forms of GD? I have seen gender-nonconforming folks here who wish to have breasts or just wish to have HRT, but still live as male. But, is this GD or pleasure-dressing taken to the extreme? I don't know, I imagine there are some of both and this is why good gender therapists are so important. Or the folks who wish to live an androgynous life ... I think this can be a form of rejecting the male-self as well. There are many gray areas.

[Tracii G]

You are only an outcast if you let yourself be. I don't see you that way.

[Lucy_Bella]

I don't think you're an outcast either, although you might be conflating several ideas.

Gender is not taught, it is felt. One's sense of gender identity (who we feel we align with ... males, females, or in rarer cases a combination of the two), is innate.

How we behave may be taught and it does change from culture to culture and throughout time. Women years ago learned that their place was in the home and they could only ride their horses side-saddle. Men were taught it was their sole responsibilities to be providers. Many men are still taught it is not OK to cry. And a million other gender-specific role behaviors, some of which have broken down over time.

How we behave as a gender is actually taught from the time we are able to learn..Boys play with cars ,girls play with dolls... Boys have blue girls have pink,boys don't wear dresses ..You can say its a behavioral pattern but it is being taught through out society and as we grow..Now are all of us taught our true gender? Makes you wonder sometimes because of course we can't really be taught our true gender, we can only learn it.. Thank you Reine for pointing that out :)

A good read if you get a chance Reine,,...http://sagepub.com/upm-data/39367_4.pdf sorry page 129..

[Kate Simmons]

The only real outcasts are those who want to be Hon. :)

[ReineD]

How we behave as a gender is actually taught from the time we are able to learn..Boys play with cars ,girls play with dolls...

Yes, that's what I said. :)

Gender Identity is not taught, it is felt. Some gender specific behaviors are socially constructed (i.e. blue and pink) and do change throughout cultures and time.

... although there are studies that show boys play differently than girls do, even with gender neutral toys. It's not so cut and dry.

[NicoleScott]

Reine's description of pleasure dressers is right on for me - just a guy who likes to dress up occasionally for pleasure. No GID.

Many parents who detected feminine behavior in their little boys tried to teach them their proper gender role. Doesn't seem to work, and usually results in confused kids and parents worried about their social standing.

[ClaraKay]

I find it fascinating that someone who experiences GD due to a sex-gender ID mismatch, will find relief within days simply by undergoing HRT.

[Lucy_Bella]

will find relief within days simply by undergoing HRT.

Clara I am curious only because I believe "gender" as being chemical verses "sex" as being biological not everyone will agree with me on this and some believe gender can be biological as well.. I'll leave that for the professionals it's just my own opinion ( i'm not trying to debate it)

So anyways since you brought that up how can a chemical therapy bring you relief ,I am guessing that it brings you a proper balance? :) ..Wouldn't that suggest that gender is chemical? I'm not even suggesting that you would know or care to know I just find it fascinating as well, how that works for some people, and i'm thankful it does..

[Confucius]

I think that every cross-dresser need to find his own comfort position, and after that he discovers that he is able to accept himself. As a result cross-dressing covers a wide spectrum. We can only express our own personal experiences and how we have come to terms with ourselves.

As for myself, I always knew I was male, and a heterosexual. However there have been times when the urge to cross-dress was very, very powerful. I understand this as the way my brain is hard-wired. When I cross-dress my brain interprets it as actual contact with a female. My brain releases a host of neurotransmitters; dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin and others. These neurotransmitters produce the sensations so typical of cross-dressers; sensations of well-being, pleasure, sexual gratification, comfort, social empathy and bonding. It affects the reward centers of my brain, instant gratification, and thus it mimics the addiction pattern.

What does this make me? I am a normal, healthy, heterosexual male with an extra neural connection. That's all. Cross-dressing is just a form of synesthesia. I am not confused or suffering from any gender confusion. The sensations I experience from cross-dressing are not delusional, they are a real biological condition. I am a man who finds that cross-dressing makes me happy. I don't see myself as having two persons within me. I am one person. I do not use a female name, because I am not a female. I am just trying to be honest with myself.

[PaulaQ]

@lucy - I actually have no doubt you and Nicole and many others here are male identified CDs. Whether there's a fundamental similarity between what we experience from CD to TS is scientifically interesting, if it's even true, but we don't really know enough to predict where this stuff will go.

My opinion is there's a relationship - but it's just my opinion.

[Beverley Sims]

Lucy,
There are so many unknowns to your question that it should be a wide ranging point of views.

I could not definitively answer any of the questions you have asked.

Maybe you already have the answers hidden in your questions.

[Tina_gm]

Paula, definitely I agree that there is a connection when it comes to CD/TS. Honestly I think it is all basically the same thing, but just in the amount. This is just my random opion, no actual science, just my thought on it. 90% of people will relate their identity and biological gender to about 90ish percent. Most will have a few things here and there which are more opposite their biological gender, but overall it is a fairly good connection. The remaining 10% will be less than 90% basically think of it as an old fashion balancing weight scale. CDers have more balanced on the fem side then that of the average guy, and will range from almost the standard 90/10 ratio to nearly the opposite end, which is where TS comes in, as the identity has now become very predominantly female. The "typical" CDer still has 50 or more percent of themselves which identifies as male. It is because they still identify as male that makes it a bearable situation to mask the femininity, if they choose to. The farther the scale is tipped opposite, the harder it is to mask. Being TS I would think is merely the point in which internally, a person identifies themselves as opposite their biological gender, without any real identity of their biological gender.

[mechamoose]

To borrow an idea from the movie "The Matrix", the first time Morpheus brings Neo into the matrix, he gives a quick explanation on their clothing and appearance. He refers to it as a 'latent self-image'.

If *you* suddenly appeared there, what do you think *you* would look like?

Gender identity is personal and unique for all of us. It isn't is not just appearance, but also personality and reactions to situations & people.

You are not an outcast, any more then we are.

I enjoy wearing women's clothing as part of my day-to-day attire, and I usually swap out to a skirt and such when I get home. In my family I'm the nurturing one, I'm the cook, I'm the decorator. I have VERY strong 'female' personality features.. and I'm a big furry dude with a beard.

'Gender' is not all that simple to define, IMHO.

<3

- MM

[Katey888]

Lucy - I'm quite sure you shouldn't feel like an outcast.. :)

I've been trying really hard to think of a suitable example for what gender is like.... as I think other folk here have identified, it is a quite complex mix that I think comprises self (the 'genetic' part), societal (the stereotype aspects we learn as we grow up), cultural (we're all largely western culture here, but there are still those cultures with kilts - och aye!;)) and the latter incudes the era today (that defines accepted norms of fashion) - that all come together to give us our gender presentation...

I believe the innate self part is the core of what kicks us off: the other parts are a lesser impact, other than societal norms repressing our urge to CD - I think sometimes the problem is around the gender binary that we get hung up on... male or female, masculine or feminine: no room for something in-between.. and whereas most folk might be comfortable in one silo or the other, we're not to differing degrees. The only example I can think of today to compare this with, is sanity (yeah - might be a fraught comparison... ) - as in, we all consider ourselves sane, but most folk have quirks that push the envelope of normality into other spaces... That might be some sort of fetish - sexual but 'innocent' in that it doesn't impact others; it might be being a little OCD; it may be more severe... but my point being, the world functions perfectly well with all these slightly non-normal folk out there, and they all consider themselves 'sane'. Isn't it similar with us... many of us 'identify male' and can be that maybe 98% of the time, but we just then have that little quirk that means we get something beneficial out of CDing, and we're just one point in a 'matrix' (I like that analogy..) that is incredibly diverse and multi-dimensional. And I think you're right when you suggest that folk may shift over time (just like sanity... ;))

Within that matrix there are no specific silos, to my mind, but there will be clustering and there will be outliers... I would guess that you're in a pretty big cluster, Lucy - if not, the biggest. Certainly not an outcast... :hugs:

Katey x

[Kate T]

Underneath the side threads here is a topic that is fundamental to this whole community, i.e. what is gender.

I suspect you will find the term "gender" is being gradually redefined, certainly in a medical sense. Up until really relatively recently gender and biological sex have typically been regarded certainly within the medical community, and also the general community, as interchangeable terms, i.e. ones gender is the same as ones biological sex. This can still be seen in legacy medical record systems where the individuals biological sex is identified with the moniker "sex" in one part and "gender" in another when they clearly relate to the same thing. Thankfully this is changing and now most medical record systems typical allow nomination of gender as a separate entity to physical sex.

WRT Gender being chemical and sex being biological then I think there is enough evidence to say that this is not the case. We have the medical means to alter the "chemistry" of the body to that typical of a particular gender yet there are numerous cases where this has been done in the absence of consulting the individuals own sense of gender and consequently the individual has suffered significant gender dysphoria in their "assigned" gender.

I like Mechamoose's idea of what you think you would be like in a constructed reality. I would also liken gender identity to body image, i.e. irrespective of whether you can see your body or not you typically have a mental image of what it looks like and where it is in space. Again research on things such as phantom penises and phantom breasts seems to suggest a possible link or involvement there. I think TS individuals have a very distinct and set gender identity and it is strongly linked to their body image. I suspect non TS have a much more variable gender identity that is only loosely linked to their body image.

[ReineD]

.... as I think other folk here have identified, it is a quite complex mix that I think comprises ...

Yes, Katey, the concept of gender has four main elements: identity, expression (gender roles, behaviors, and presentation), biological sex, and sexual orientation.

Here is an excellent diagram and explanation (although their explanation of expression is quite stereotypical :p), and it uses the continuum principle:

Genderbread-person (http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/breaking-through-the-binary-gender-explained-using-continuums/)

Some aspects of expression (gender roles and presentation) are socially constructed, they do change within cultures and time. But others do not, for example behaviors that are influenced by biological factors.


224882

[mechamoose]

Thank you for that link ReineD, that was a really good explanation!

- MM

[ReineD]

I want to add that very generally speaking,

1. For cisgenders, expression and biological sex match with identity.

2. For transsexuals, expression and biological sex are complete opposites of identity.

2. For CDers, biological sex matches identity, but some aspects of expression do not, to varying degrees, per individual.


<Edit> - for those of you who are not familiar with the term "cis", it means "on the same side". A cisgendered male or female is someone who is happy in their birth sex and they do not push any gender boundaries or norms ... like your family members, friends, etc (and women who wear pants also fall into this category! :p)

[Samantha Clark]

Love love love the genderbread person!

[Lucy_Bella]

Like the "Genderbread" person.. But having "sex" associated or tied to "gender" is very debatable ..A working definition in use by the world health org for it's work is that "gender" refers to socially constructed roles,behaviors, activities and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women and masculine and feminine are genders.. Because "Gender " is a fairly new word " Sex " is still commonly used.. You can and will find many other orgs or dictionary's that still use "sex" as in defining a "gender"..

I am a firm believer that "sex" and "gender" are not the same in meaning ..

Thank you for sharing that Reine :) and I'm not debating the "genderbread" link with you at all I think it's real, useful and very factual ..

[ReineD]

Sex isn't tied to gender, Lucy. You can slide the 'sexual orientation' bar anywhere you like, no matter where you're at on any other bar. To put it differently, the bars (in the graphic) are separate. :)

[mechamoose]

Translated: What you like has nothing to do with how you identify yourself. They are different numbers & measurements.

<3

- MM

[Lucy_Bella]

Thanks MM and Reine,

I wholly agree and I think the majority of this forum does as well... Gender representing male or female ..Sex representing a body part normally associated to a gender ...Or the act of.. Meaning the sexual attraction( or preference ) to a gender/genders ..

Problem with that is if you google the word sex you will get many hits coming back as it defining a gender...

[Aprilrain]

Problem with that is if you google the word sex you will get many hits coming back as it defining a gender...

That's not all you get!

[freeindress]

Other cases to be considered:
-intersex when a genetic male, who has genetic defect in expression of male genes, is born and grows in a normal looking female body, and does not know it before taking genetic tests (discovering the cause of sterility for example).

-so called schizophrenic people who are in fact twins in the same body, two emotional processes sharing a single brain, like siamese twins but with a single head. They are seen as mad when they talk to each other, make private jokes to each other without seeming to talk to someBody else, shake their head... and suffer a lot from our lack of noticing they are in fact two in one. They don't need a cure, we just have to gain their confidence and ask them to introduce the other person. If they are two boys or two girls at once, are they gay, lesbian, or two straights with third parties ? If they are one girl and one boy, who is the CD/TG ? We have to think twice and more...

[Marcelle]

Lucy,

I hope you don't think you are an outcast as the membership of this great forum will clearly show we all have differences of opinion, emotions and naturally how we define ourselves. So consider us a community of outcasts and you are just part of the greater whole (its the sum of our parts that make us strong not just one part). :)

Interesting thread but I don't want to get caught up in defining what gender is as it is very subjective and if you Google it, you will get a multitude of definitions all open to interpretation. For me, beyond presentation (wig, make-up, hair, girl clothes, mannerisms, voice, walk) I never give gender a thought. My presentation is a necessity in order to blend (as best as a I can) when I go out. Why I go out is simply . . . because I can and I choose to. I don't feel different. Specifically my innate gender (what makes me a person) remains the same "male". My external presentation (female), is incongruent to my societal assigned gender. However it is still part of me and how I choose to present to the world (boy or girl) will depend on a multitude of factors :battingeyelashes:

I think gender is what each of us chooses to define who we are. I don't change my status or role in society when I dress, I don't change my core personality, I can't change my primary sexual characteristics, what is left is all presentation. I am the same person "boy" or "girl". IMHO, gender just confuses things.

Hugs

Isha

[Lucy_Bella]

I don't feel different. Specifically my innate gender (what makes me a person) remains the same "male". My external presentation (female), is incongruent to my societal assigned gender. However it is still part of me and how I choose to present to the world (boy or girl) will depend on a multitude of factors

Isha,
Thanks for assuring me that we all are outcasts..lol :)

Interesting thought when you said a multitude of factors ..Just curious what are those factors? Please don't answer if you don't want to cause I know it's none of my business.. :) .. I have a few questions maybe you could answer as a volunteer of course ..These are my own questions none from any psychologist page.. Thanks

1.Do you get urges to present in feminine and if so are they every so often always, or very little?

2.Are they very strong ,tolerable or mild?

3.Have they seemed to of increased ( expressing in femm) with social acceptance ?

4.Do you feel quilt or shame when not accepted ?

5.You say nothing changes while presenting ..Do you tend to present more masculine while in male mode or do you notice?

I've seen you as well as others in this forum mention having mild GID I am asking these questions to see if my pleasure dressing may be just that of mild GID.. My answers are below :)







1.Varies , depends on my mode what kind of day I am having or if I am just too tired to even care.. But as a whole very little..

2. Mine are very strong so much in fact it can become nagging.. But temporary and goes away until something sets the nagging off again..

3. Mine did only around people who I trusted it with ..Looking back it was the pink fog ..I never go into a real society in Femm so I can not answer the whole question..

4. Shame

5. In male mode I dress awful I'll admit it and I care less how I look the only time I care how I look is presenting in feminine and no body is around to even care or first meeting a lady... I have not presented in Femm in front of those who know me best to compensate my masculinity while in male mode..

[Tinkerbell-GG]

... although I do think the word "feminine" is sometimes confused with "feeling good".


Wow, I've often thought this, too. Given I'm a GG and have never felt either masculine or feminine, I guess I'm not really sure what feeling 'feminine' means. But feeling good makes sense.