Who is leaving who?

[samantha rogers]

Here is a question, and just something hypothetical that occured to me, so please don't read anything into it or do any projecting...tee hee...it is not about me. Just conjecture.
I read on here quite often about wives leaving husbands who CD or have TG issues. It, or the fear of it, seems to be a common theme. But what about the reverse?
Have any "girls" here walked away from their gg spouse, specifically or even generally in respect to issues to do with Cd/TG?
For example...leaving in order to have more freedom to dress or explore a feminine side, or because of attraction to another "gurl" or to seek out such a thing, or any of a hundred other possible reasons. What I am getting at is this...being a CD/TG person can seem a tremendous liability on the dating scene, and seeking a spouse may seem a daunting task. How many have risked that by walking away from an existing spouse, and why?
Again, just curious, because I never seem to read about this happening. And if it does happen (I am sure it must) is it really less frequent, or just not reported?
Thoughts?

[Tracii G]

There have been threads about the CD leaving to have freedom.

[NicoleScott]

No data to back it up, just things I have heard, but I think walking away from a spouse is less common than both parties realizing the marriage is irreparably damaged, and they agree that a divorce is inevitable, so let's get started. That doesn't mean the split is without contention (kids, money, stuff) but it can be.
My first wife could not be married to a crossdresser. We went to counseling. Her objective: to get me cured. My objective: to get her to accept. Doomed from the start (a lesson here - if you go to joint counseling, agree on the objective). Once we realized that this conflict would not be resolved, we came to an agreement to divorce. Neither of us were scratching and clawing to keep us together. So, to answer your question, I didn't walk away for the freedom to crossdress, but I did realize that when we split, I would be free to dress at will. And, as it turned out, the time following the divorce was the most active time for my crossdressing. There were other factors, though. Private place, more time, enough money, etc.
We didn't split so I could dress. We split because I couldn't stop dressing.

[samantha rogers]

Thanks Tracii, I will look again, but I guess I wasn't sure what search term to use. Though it also occured to me in retrospect that it might have been better to pose this question to spouses and GGs in general perhaps in a different area. It may well be that a biomale walking away from an otherwise decent relationship with a spouse might be hesitant or embarrassed to announce such a move, whereas a spouse who has been left might be more forthcoming. Again, just curious. I have not been here long enough to know all the conversations which have doubtless been repeated ad nauseum. Lol

[Teresa]

Hi Sammie it does happen more than you think but in many cases there is so much going on and things to take care of that members tend to drop out of the forum until the dust settles.
Yet again I'm being urged by my wife to downsize, I have an easier DADT situation where some issues are talked over and others are skirted round but before I accept moving I need to know if Teresa is making the move as well. I don't want to dress 24/7 but I want to be the one making the decision and not feel guilty about it even if it means separation.

[Vanessa5]

I live in a DADT and it is tremedously hard. She wants no part of me in any way. I have thought about leaving but I have kids and couldn't do that to them. We are currently working out some of our issues but none of the ones dealing with my dressing.

[kimdl93]

Can't cite examples, but I can think of a number of individuals who didn't seem terribly interested in saving their marriage. I guess it really depends on the quality of the relationship and each party's willingness to make it work. Sometimes I suspect that CDing becomes the final straw or the convenient excuse for a dissolution that was already coming.

[Eryn]

I think that there is every combination of leaving and/or being forced out.

What we really don't hear about a lot, because it isn't as exciting, are the couples who work our a reasonable compromise that tends to enrich both of their lives. They're too busy loving each other and living their lives to make much of it.

If there is any message I wish could be passed it is "It doesn't have to be a battle!"

[bonni]

We just presently seperated. My wifeays its not my dressing I other issues that have been messing with the marriage. But some of it is also that I can't stop dressing I want more.

[Lucy_Bella]

As a victim of a spouse who claims my cding was the reason for the split ...I would have much more wanted understanding and NOT acceptance of my desires ,but know that they are there and are a part of me It would be easier for her to understand that is much less valuable to me than her time is with me.. My ex would never allow that door to be opened ..

[Beverley Sims]

I tend to look at why I got married in the first place.
Nothing's changed so here I am.

Eryn has a good suggestion, "It doesn't have to be a battle!"
I say work on the marriage, there are usually other underlying factors that cause a marriage to fail.

Dressing just gets into the mix.

[PaulaQ]

I know a trans woman who left her wife when she started her transition M2F. Her wife was pretty unlikely to be accepting - she was VERY religious, although she claimed she wanted to try. The problem is that her family disowned her while she was married to the trans woman, and her job would've fired her. (She worked for a religious broadcasting company - there is no way they'd have let her stay on if she were with a trans woman.) So my friend left her, and gave her everything in the divorce.

The spouse was, of course, incredibly bitter about it all. It's not my place to judge either party, it really isn't, but I always felt my friend short changed her wife by not honoring her wife's request to try to stay together.

Sometimes I think there just aren't any good answers for some of us.

[Lexi Moralas]

My situation is she tried to except it but can not. She has made it clear that if I want to dress she will support me 100% but as a friend not a wife. And I can not say I blame her. So I am doing my best to leave it behind but it's hard.
I still have a few basic outfits and will some times clean the house en fem. if she new she would flip.
I posted I thread earlier today that today I have a rare opportunity to go out in public dress like I used to do often.
I am trying to resist the temptation. But we will see I guess. The funny thing is I know I am going to regret my decision either way. Any that's a little off topic isn't it lol.
I would never leave to peruse my fem side.
I am actually trying to leave my fem side for her , if that makes any sense?

[Eryn]

...Her wife was pretty unlikely to be accepting - she was VERY religious, although she claimed she wanted to try. The problem is that her family disowned her while she was married to the trans woman, and her job would've fired her. (She worked for a religious broadcasting company - there is no way they'd have let her stay on if she were with a transwoman...

That would be akin to a white supremicist discovering that his wife had african-american blood and worrying about losing his job with the Klan.

Bigotry is bigotry whether one or one's associates think it justified or not.

[PaulaQ]

@Eryn - ironically enough, this same woman's first husband was a CD. Could she pick 'em or what?
Although I'm still uncomfortable that my friend left her wife without giving her much say in the matter, I have to conclude that she probably made the right call. I've watched this same woman go on to disown her own daughter because of her daughter's sexual orientation. It seems quite unlikely she'd have come to grips with a transgender spouse. :(

[Eryn]

In that case the woman showed her true nature through her actions. Anyone would be better off to be clear of her. It's a pity that your friend had to waste her time and her emotional capital on that relationship.

As far as honoring her request to try and stay together, if it was already a lost cause then all the attempt would do was cause further anguish.

[Aprilrain]

Although I'm still uncomfortable that my friend left his wife without giving her much say in the matter, I have to conclude that she probably made the right call.(

Did you just call a transwoman a he?

I left my wife and then I transitioned, I did not leave her to transition. It was not a good marriage, I married for all the wrong reasons and stayed with her for way to long for all the wrong reasons. We are friendly with each other today, if it weren't for the kids I'd have little reason to stay in touch with her.

As far as dating post transition goes, I've not had any problems but my situation is very different than a CDers.

[Lynn Marie]

It wasn't CDing that caused me to leave my ex, it was the simple fact that I really didn't like the person she had become. Of course, I have to accept my share of the blame for the failure of our marriage, but that's okay, life is so much better now.

[Allison2006]

I left my ex, but although she knew I CD'd this was not the issue that led to our divorce. It just wasn't working.

[ReineD]

It's easy to blame the other, isn't it.

I think that in most divorces, each party points the finger. He says, "If it hadn't been for her engaging in a, b, c, or having an x, y, z attitude, we would still be together", and vice versa. This is why in most states it does not matter in the final outcome who files for divorce. In fact, in my case, my ex wanted me to file.

Rare is the couple, in my view, that can be objective enough to acknowledge that the relationship is no longer working for either one. One exception to this might be if one party has affairs while the other believes they still have a happy marriage. But even then, some will say there was something inherently wrong with the relationship to begin with, if one party seeks relationships with other people. That's debatable I suppose.

[samantha rogers]

Reine - Your comments are always so astute and even keeled. Thanks (and thanks to everyone)! I agree completely with what you said. I think most marriages fail not because of crossdressing but rather because something was wrong somewhere to begin with. This does not, as you mentioned, rule out the exception of a cheating partner, regardless of which one it may be.
I am enough of a romantic to believe that if there is real love on both sides and the desire is there, then a marriage will not fail, but everyone's situation is different. I would be the last to judge anyone.

[Gina's dress-up]

Hi I had posted about myself on this issue, i am living as a crossdresser/TG Women, after 30 years of marriage i do feel a lot better now than when i was at home with the SO, i don't have to hide anything anymore its all out in the open and living la vida loca

[PaulaQ]

@Aprilrain - yikes, that was a terrible accident. I'll edit my post. It was completely unintentional - I didn't intend to misgender my very dear friend. Nobody's perfect, I guess. :( Thanks.

@Samantha rogers

I am enough of a romantic to believe that if there is real love on both sides and the desire is there, then a marriage will not fail, but everyone's situation is different.

I no longer believe in love like that. At least not for people like me. It simply doesn't happen. I still believe in love - but as far as I'm concerned, the idea of this endless, unconditional love is something Disney sold us. It's not real. I know some of you find it - I envy you, and consider you a lottery winner in this life. It'll never happen for me, anyway - not like that. I'll never marry again. Relationships - sure, no problem.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Samantha, :daydreaming:We just had our 50th Anniversary and I don't see either one of going anywhere anytime soon.

[samantha rogers]

Paula, you may be right, but I really hope not. I never won the lottery, but I still buy a ticket now and then. :-)

[ReineD]

I am enough of a romantic to believe that if there is real love on both sides and the desire is there, then a marriage will not fail, but everyone's situation is different. I would be the last to judge anyone.

I agree with you, if we're talking about gender-nonconformity (CDing). This does not involve a wife altering her sexual preference to follow her husband's cross-sex transition.

But, even in the best marriages, a GG may not be able to become a lesbian wife to a transitioning transwoman ... which compares to a husband who would not be able to become a gay man if his wife were a transitioning FtM. It's not just a matter of having to alter one's sexual preference (which in my view is hard-wired), it is also living with the stigma (still) of being in a same-sex relationship which would be an even greater challenge if the wife is hetero.

[samantha rogers]

Hi Reine,
Well we seem to have drifted a little off from where I meant to start, but what the heck...:battingeyelashes:
The only place I guess I disagree with you (and its ok to disagree), is that I am not certain about the hard wired aspect of sexual preference. While I would certainly agree that there are many individuals who are most definitely so, and firmly in the straight or gay camp, I tend to believe, subjectively I admit, that many and possibly most are only established in one camp or the other through social conditioning, and that, just as I see gender identity as far from a binary construct, that the same is true for sexual attraction. Of course this is hypothetical, but I think that were the world free of such unnecessary cultural stereotypes (another discussion?) that people would develop their sexual attraction preference in a much broader and more open minded manner. I believe humans can fall in love with humans...and, hopefully (did I mention I am a romantic?) free from pure physical attraction but rather based on the person inside the body...beyond that, I would hesitate to state anything empirically.
Of course, social conditioning and prejudice does exist. We live in the world as it is and not as we might wish it to be. As such, social prejudice does factor in as does the affect of social conditioning on the human mind in determining what we "should" find attractive. Still, in all marriages, the passage of time changes our physicality but usually not the underlying love. People, once young, svelte and beautiful, become old, wrinkled, fat and incontinent. Yet marriages continue because the love grows beyond the physical. Is an altered physical gender that much different? I know for some the answer is yes but for others the answer is no. In such cases, the love is for the person, not the wrapper. And if that love is strong, I think it can overcome the societal pressures and biases.
I realize that what I believe is not possible for all. I know many marriages are not that strong, nor based in that kind of pure love. But it does not deter me from (yes, romantically) believing that it does exist. In fact, I have seen cases where it does. I bet we all have.
Yes, it is rare, and it represents an ideal that most of us will never know. But knowing it is possible does give one hope, does it not? And hope is more important than food or even air. Without hope, we die.
Love...real love...is more than a feeling. It is an action. Wanting the best for the person we love is as much a part as the feeling itself, even when it is difficult or even when it is not in our own best interest!
So, anyway....yeah..I am a romantic and an idealist. Forgive me. I really would not want it any other way.:battingeyelashes:

[Jolene]

I have never married and probably never will. Not because I would never want to, but at this time in my life and looking around me, relationships and marrage both seem to be something that work well for some and not so well for others.

It would be hard to live with someone and CD, unless they were very understanding. I do feel for someone who is in that position. Just thinking about myself, if I did meet a lady and it did get serious, guess I would have to lay it all out and go from there, but as things are now here, do not ever expect to. Just my family finding out would be bad enough.

[PaulaQ]

This does not involve a wife altering her sexual preference to follow her husband's cross-sex transition.

But, even in the best marriages, a GG may not be able to become a lesbian wife to a transitioning transwoman ... which compares to a husband who would not be able to become a gay man if his wife were a transitioning FtM.

Nope - trans women are an exception. It's our fault we transition anyway - just ask anybody. :(

FWIW, I know more trans men who've stayed in happy marriages with their ostensibly straight husbands than trans women who've managed to keep their wives. Then again, of the trans men I know who have relationships on the rocks because of transition - those relationships are also with women. So maybe genetic women just don't like "the trans"? (A rhetorical question - my sample size is personal and rather small.)

Anyway, I think the operative sentiment is that it's our fault. What woman would want to be with such a one as us?
I'm sure very few women would have similar issues with having a spouse who's "just a CD." Nah, that never happens, pardon my intrusion, OP.

[ReineD]

I tend to believe, subjectively I admit, that many and possibly most are only established in one camp or the other through social conditioning, and that, just as I see gender identity as far from a binary construct, that the same is true for sexual attraction. Of course this is hypothetical, but I think that were the world free of such unnecessary cultural stereotypes (another discussion?) that people would develop their sexual attraction preference in a much broader and more open minded manner.

While this may be true, I agree it is an untested hypothesis. The fact remains that in the world we live in now, people do not easily alter their sexual orientation, especially if they have husbands past their prime who are late onset transitioners.

If I were shipwrecked on an island with only other women and I were there for years, I could see myself making do with what was available ... after some years perhaps. :) But, this is not the situation of a wife whose husband transitions, and I don't think that love is enough to make it work for the majority of wives ... although we do have our very own gems in this forum who have stayed with their husbands post-op. :)

The CDing, however, is another matter IMO. I do think that it can work if the marriage is good and if each partner prioritizes the other.

<Edit> - I do know another couple who have stayed together. But, I'm pretty sure they do not have sex together and they've given each other permission to have lovers. I believe they are both attracted to men now. Their relationship changed.

[PaulaQ]

But, this is not the situation of a wife whose husband transitions, and I don't think that love is enough to make it work for the majority of wives

Yeah, on this we agree, Reine.

"the trans," particularly MtF seems to kill about 90% of marriages. I'm still really bitter about this. I have my doubts that I'll ever trust another cisgender woman enough to be in a relationship with her. Not that I think that's especially likely to happen for me ever, anyway. I don't really believe in life long relationships anymore.

I've found in my life that when you set your expectations to nothing - you are rarely disappointed. Indeed - expecting disappointment is the only thing that makes much sense to me anymore. It almost always delivers. She may be a real bitch, Disappointment, but she comes through time and time again.

[ClaraKay]

I've come to understand that sexual orientation is 'hardwired', but I agree with Samantha that each of us falls somewhere on a scale from straight to gay with most of us clustered near the straight end of the spectrum. It can be very difficult for a hetero wife to overcome her sexual preference, but certainly not impossible. I speak from my own experience in my marriage.

Few of us are 100% straight, and to the extent that we have a spouse who is closer to mid-spectrum, the easier it will be to obtain some amount of acceptance of one's CD/TG nature, especially if the relationship is based on love for each other in other important respects, or simply mutual dependency. I do think that conditioning plays a huge part in cementing one's inborn sexual preference, but that an established mindset can be changed in time with honest effort on both sides within certain (probably unexplored) limits. The motivation to make that happen has to come from deep in the hearts of the affected, and, here, we look to the strength of the underlying relationship. If it exists, accommodation is possible, if not, well.....

[Tina_gm]

I am probably gonna set off a fecal storm with this but..... Who ever has an expectation of a gay person that they should be able to adapt to being straight? I mean, once they are out and they are to anyone's knowledge gay, that's it, they are gay and totally 100% gay and no one ever bothers to think they should accept anything but who they are.

So yet here we are as CDers, expecting that our wives and gf's or any women which we fancy at, should be able to "alter" themselves for us.... and of course we are CDers and there is no going back from that, we are who we are, we cannot change that.... but hey, THEY have to change for us, women have to alter their sexuality to fit our needs right, no one else, not actual gay people, not CDers, just women whom we are with or fancy to be with, right.....

[samantha rogers]

Thats a very good point, GM. I don't disagree at all. I might throw in some discussion points to consider but it seems to be more a topic for another thread as this one...lol...has veered way off from the original question. Tee hee.

[ClaraKay]

Even though I crossdress and have a female side to my personality, my wife still sees me as a man for all intents and purposes. I haven't asked her to become a lesbian in order for our marriage to continue on an intimate basis. Similarly, I don't lose my attraction to her when she dresses in drab clothing, work boots, or gets a short haircut on occasion. I still see her as a woman. The repulsion that some spouses feel toward their crossdressing husbands is more likely due to social conditioning that views such behavior in a man as simply wrong, not that it's forcing her to change her sexual orientation. I'm not including the transsexual in this relationship dynamic, of course.

If a spouse cannot accept a man who has a need to dress up once in awhile, but otherwise is, in every way that matters, still a man, I think the fault is with the intolerant spouse, not the crossdresser. That demonstrated lack of sensitivity, understanding, and acceptance is probably a symptom of much more serious problems in the relationship which will likely result in an eventual break up at one level or another.

[PaulaQ]

Who ever has an expectation of a gay person that they should be able to adapt to being straight? I mean, once they are out and they are to anyone's knowledge gay, that's it, they are gay and totally 100% gay and no one ever bothers to think they should accept anything but who they are.


Happens fairly often with FTM TS guys. Their female SO's often stay partnered with them - even though they are now straight. It's an adjustment for them. For that matter, I know guys who're married to FTM's who stayed with their spouse, and decided they were OK with appearing as gay. For whatever reason, straight girls seem to have the worst time dealing with gender issues in their SO, as best I can tell.

[Suzanne F]

Who says they expect their spouse to find them attractive and suitable as a woman? I only hope that could happen. I will fully understand if my wife can't adjust to me being female. However I hope it might work out in some way. I very rarely get a sense anyone is demanding their spouse stay and somehow adjust.
Suzanne