Conchita Wurst

[Claire_tv_uk]

An austrian man dressed as a woman has just won the eurovision song contest, as a song contest its very tacky and its usually the biggest gimmick that wins. (a transsexual called dana international won in maybe 15 years ago)

But do you think things like this do the community good or harm, i'm unsure myself?

All he had to do was shave his beard and he'd have made an attractive woman, sure there'd have been intrigue but it wouldn't have caused ridicule, although the cynic in me thinks he wouldn't have won the competition as he wouldn't have stood out as much.

I'm personally not too bothered as i think everyone should be free to portray whatever image they want, but i could understand if some of those who are out of the closet and have had to deal with oppression would find it uncomfortable

[Ezekiel]

I just saw Eurovisión and I am really really happy that Conchita Wurst won. I was about to announce it myself but you Claire made it first.

These kind of things don't make us ridicule, because I believe this enhances the acceptance of people, given the fact that s/he won without negative image from anynone, atleast for now.

Biggots will now cry and start saying their typical stupidity, but we know them quite well. This is an example that we, someday not that far was we tend to think, that WE CAN GO OUT THERE AND LIVE OUR LIFES.

The victory of Conchita, is a victory for all of us!

[Milou]

I think both harm and good. He didn't won, because he had a great song, but for his courage and statement. He has a lot of supporters, but found more hateful comments on the internet.

I rooted for the Netherlands, but I don't really give a shit.

[Ezekiel]

Whatever mafia there is in Eurovision, whatever political interests there are, we, for once, have been benefitted from it. We deserve it. We are starting to see the light. Transgender and androgyny won today. We won today.

You should see the positive effects of this, because although probably the song wasn't exactly the best, it was good, Conchita is very good Singer and everything else is just beneficial.

Conclusion, we win. Thanks Conchita for this victory, which means in my opinion, much for the community.

[Zylia]

Before I say anything about Conchita's victory and the point you're making, I do want to acknowledge the surge in quality that we have seen in the last couple of years: the 2012 winning song "Euphoria (http://youtu.be/t5qURKt4maw)" is awesome and this year's number two through five are all solid popsongs, nothing more, nothing less (obviously including The Common Linnets (http://youtu.be/hkrF8uC92O4)!).

Anyway, the ESC is politics first, (latent) gay pride second and music third. The blatant nepotism is particularly egregious, but that didn't contribute to Conchita's victory. Her tacky song isn't really good, but she checked the first two boxes as a LGBT 'icon/martyr' and all the protests against her evidently helped her a lot.

I don't know if a 'bearded lady' is the best spokesperson/poster child for transgender acceptance for everyone, but it's a strong signal nonetheless. I hope we can all grow up and accept that not everyone fits the mould and maybe that's exactly what the TG community needs.

[Abbey11]

I think that this is a good result for the community

'Conchita Wurst won the Eurovision Song Contest 2014 with a score of 290 after a grandiose James Bond-theme-like ballad, Rise Like a Phoenix, before an international TV audience of around 180 million people in 45 countries.'

Hugs Abbey xx


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2625242/Bearded-drag-queen-Conchita-Wurst-puts-dazzling-performance-Eurovision-2014.html#ixzz31MGHurUH

[NicolaF]

I think it is absolutely brilliant.

The fact that the personal pronoun used to describe Conchita throughtout the whole tournament was "her", or when talking about her people always said things like "she did great" or "well done to her" was fantastic to hear I thought, because it showed that people accepted her for who she wants to be and how she identifies, and she can be seen as a great inspiration for the transgender community, even with the beard, I know I see her that way.

Maybe she wouldn't have won just on the song and voice alone, but that too I only see as a good thing, as its shows that the voting public of Europe got together to show their support for her and to show they are on her side when others like Russia were criticising her.

At the end of the day, a man in a dress is the talk and pride of Europe at the moment, so I can't see how that could be a bad thing :D

[Jane G]

Call me old fashioned, I didn't like the beard much to be honest, I guess it's either some kind of statement or a pop singers gimick. The song was ok & her voice was good.

This will certainly make for some mainsteam debate in the coming weeks, which is always a good thing for any minority comunity.

[Claire_tv_uk]

I think it is absolutely brilliant.

The fact that the personal pronoun used to describe Conchita throughtout the whole tournament was "her", or when talking about her people always said things like "she did great" or "well done to her" was fantastic to hear I thought, because it showed that people accepted her for who she wants to be and how she identifies, and she can be seen as a great inspiration for the transgender community, even with the beard, I know I see her that way.

Maybe she wouldn't have won just on the song and voice alone, but that too I only see as a good thing, as its shows that the voting public of Europe got together to show their support for her and to show they are on her side when others like Russia were criticising her.

At the end of the day, a man in a dress is the talk and pride of Europe at the moment, so I can't see how that could be a bad thing :D


not all publicity is good publicity though, do you think the talk on monday at work will be "i'm so glad she won, it really signals a breakthrough for the transgender community" or more likely "did you see that weirdo/freak/thing that won eurovision, i couldn't stop laughing so i voted for it" ?

out of interest, i've just checked on my facebook and out of the 6 who have commented about this, 1 was positive, 5 were jokes or insults including one who's photoshopped a beard onto his wife (which did make me laugh in fairness).

I really don't think this will have any positive long term effect sadly.

[Megan Thomas]

I'd like to think it's a positive for our community but I fear it won't turn out that way. The public who are accepting or supportive hardly needed this to be the way they are. My fear is the uneducated Joe public will refer to her as a "freak" or similar term and that will lead to an increased use of derogatory labels coming the way of those of us who are public and not passable. Only time will tell...

[NicolaF]

not all publicity is good publicity though, do you think the talk on monday at work will be "i'm so glad she won, it really signals a breakthrough for the transgender community" or more likely "did you see that weirdo/freak/thing that won eurovision, i couldn't stop laughing so i voted for it" ?

There will always be a few who are going to make remarks like that. I even saw that in my own parents tonight, I watched it in a different room to them so I could cheer every time Austria got 12 points, but even when she won they made a few comments about "the he/she" as they put it and it was clear they saw her as a bit of a freak, but I wouldn't expect much else from 2 people who grew up in 1960s Ireland in extremely Catholic households. But I was very proud of the rest of Ireland that we gave her 12 points as well.

But for however many still hold those types of opinions its clear that far far more people were delighted to see her win, you could tell that from the audience from how loudly they cheered everytime she got high points, or from them singing along so loudly to her song. All the people there and those that voted for her did so because they liked her and wanted to show support for her. So I strongly believe for the most part that this is a very good thing that a man in a dress won such a high profile competition because it shows much more then people just tolerating and accepting her but actually embracing her and celebrating her. I certainly see her as a role model anyway!!

[NicolaF]

out of interest, i've just checked on my facebook and out of the 6 who have commented about this, 1 was positive, 5 were jokes or insults including one who's photoshopped a beard onto his wife (which did make me laugh in fairness).

I really don't think this will have any positive long term effect sadly.

In the aftermath of a high profile event with a out of the norm result like this there is always going to be big social media attention, and some small fraction of it will be of a hateful nature, but I think a lot of the people that make jokes about it don't mean it in a harmful way but some people will take offence to it anyway, being a little over sensitive.

Even I sent a snapchat to a lot of my friends of a picture of me dressed as a woman and i drew a crude beard on myself and captioned it "Eurovision 2015 here I come", and I obviously don't mean that in an insulting way to Conchita as I think she is brilliant!!

I've seen this image shared on my facebook a few times already too. Again, I don't think that is meant as any sort of insult to Conchita, just people trying to be funny. You see that sort of image the whole time where it is the simple formula of Celebrity1 + Celebrity2 = Celebrity3
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[unclejoann]

it is only a good thing if you want to be considered a cartoon character or drag queen instead of a real person.

[Sarah21]

She's a drag queen, I really liked the song.
I would love to get a razor to that beard though as she is really pretty.

I saw her being interviewed on a chat show a few weeks ago and she looked amazing, apart from the beard, but that's her choice.
I think it's a good thing, she has raised awareness at least.

[Kate T]

Anyone who wishes to criticise Conchita, Eddie izzard etc. consider this. They are out there and have put it all in the line. It could have all gone horribly pear shaped. Conchita has suffered threats and internet bullying that would make most of us run for the hills. She cannot hide behind a closet of anonymity. So yes, I think it is good for the community. And I think if you don't think it is perhaps you should ask yourself whether you are really interested in ending all types of prejudice or if you just want to end just enough prejudice to make your life easier.

[Christen]

I agree Adina, for heaven's sake, who are we to criticise. One thing you can say about Europeans, they are not staid, crazy a bit I think, but not staid.
Go Conchita! And I think there's a technical term for how he presents, Genderf .. something?

[Sarah21]

Here she is singing the winning song.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRUIava4WRM

[ReineD]

People used to pay to see Bearded Ladies at circus side shows, right next to the elephant man and the four legged lady. They were novelties. And as much as our society has increased its awareness and acceptance of gender and sexual diversity, bearded women are not the norm nor do I foresee they will ever be, if we look at this site's membership as a good statistical sample of the community at large.

Does the general audience celebrate Conchita Wurst because of her performance ability and her beauty, or are people fascinated with the novel aspect of a feminine looking person who is really a man with a beard? If it's the latter, then I don't think capitalizing on the sensationalism is doing this community any favors. I don't want people to look at my SO as some sort of freak, who does this for shock value possibly for political reasons.

I think that only members of the LGBTQ community will celebrate the bold statement for diversity made by Conchita. The rest of the audience, I'm afraid, will see it as a side show.

We in this community may know that gender is not binary for maybe 1%-3% of the population, if that. But the fact remains that it is for the other 97%. If someone wants to go about their day-to-day business dressed in a skirt, wearing makeup and long hair, and sporting a beard, what are they after? Do they want to live their lives making a political statement for the gender-nonconforming (a.k.a. genderqueer or genderf*cks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender****))? Then they need to be prepared to be stared at and judged, until such time as a large percentage of the population ceases to be a part of the gender binary.

[NicolaF]

Does the general audience celebrate Conchita Wurst because of her performance ability and her beauty, or are people fascinated with the novel aspect of a feminine looking person who is really a man with a beard? If it's the latter, then I don't think capitalizing on the sensationalism is doing this community any favors. I don't want people to look at my SO as some sort of freak, who does this for shock value possibly for political reasons.

I think that only members of the LGBTQ community will celebrate the bold statement for diversity made by Conchita. The rest of the audience, I'm afraid, will see it as a side show.


This isn't the case though. Yes there are always going to be a few who are going to see something like this as a freak show or something to laugh at or criticise, but its clear from the fact that she actually won the competition, which was watched by over 120 million people, that the majority are in support of her and its not just the LGBT community that was celebrating her tonight.

People are placing a bit too much emphasis on the fact she has a beard and ignoring all the other facts of what happened at the eurovision. Conchita was coming under heavy criticism in the build up to tonight from Russia especially but also a couple of other countries, and that would have been the case without the beard, because what they saw was a man dressed as a woman being broadcast throughout the nation, and they didn't like the idea of what they believed to be an "unnatural and immoral" way of life being tolerated and highlighted for young children to see. And how did the rest of Europe respond to Russia's attack on her? Russia's performance was booed by the entire crowd as were they when they received any points in the voting system, while Conchita was the run away winner in the end, with the entire crowd cheering her along and singing along loudly with her. Therefore its clear that it wasn't just the LGBT community celebrating and supporting her tonight.
At its most basic, Russia and a couple other nations came out attacking Conchita not just for being a bearded lady, but for being a man wearing a dress in the spot light, and the vast majority of Europe gave those nations a big middle finger, and said f*** you, we are on her side. That is a win, no two ways about that. If you watched the Eurovision you would see people were genuinely delighted to see her win!


We in this community may know that gender is not binary for maybe 1%-3% of the population, if that. But the fact remains that it is for the other 97%. If someone wants to go about their day-to-day business dressed in a skirt, wearing makeup and long hair, and sporting a beard, what are they after? Do they want to live their lives making a political statement for the gender-nonconforming (a.k.a. genderqueer or genderf*cks)? Then they need to be prepared to be stared at and judged, until such time as a large percentage of the population ceases to be a part of the gender binary.
Again, this isn't the case for Conchita. Conchita is a stage persona, Tom Neuwirth doesn't go about his day to day business dressed as a woman with a beard. In fact, in an interview I saw he said part of the reason he wears the beard is because then when he is going about his normal life people don't recognise him so he maintains his anonymity. Conchita is part Tom expressing himself, in a way that someone people obviously won't understand but most on here will, and part a statement that not everybody has to confirm to the "normal" gender roles that a lot of society tries to enforce upon people, and that people can be whoever they want to be. A lot of people are genuinely getting that message.

The support for Tom/Conchita is real and sincere. Just looking at her facebook page she has gained about 60,000 fans in the last hour or so alone. Yes some people are still leaving her messages of hate (no doubt a few are from boys/men who are angry because they are confused and upset about the strange feeling they have towards this beautiful woman :D ), but more and more of the comments are messages of support and love!

EDIT: Just search #ConchitaWurst on twitter and you will see how the overwhelming majority are viewing this as nothing but positive, mentioning both herself and Michael Sam in the same breath and talking about today being a great day for the advancement of tolerance

[unclejoann]

Conchita is an entertainer, not a crossdresser; she may be talented and put on a good show but that does not make her part of this community.

[Kate T]

I am sorry Reine but I disagree.

Maybe Conchita has capitalised on a societal fascination with the unusual. And yes a part of that is clearly deliberate. But no more deliberate than Annie Lennox used to capitalise on community fascination with a masculine looking woman. Early in Eurythmics career Annie was almost deliberately obfuscating with regards to her gender in interviews. Yet I don't think anyone would doubt the positive impact that Annie Lennox and others have had on acceptance of GLBT individuals into mainstream culture and society nor would they question her motives.

If someone wants to go about their day to day business dressed in a skirt wearing makeup and sporting a beard what are they after? Maybe just acceptance that that is who they are, and if they wish to perform a song, act a role or do whatever job like that then they SHOULD be able to and be judged on their performance, not on what they are wearing. So maybe the gender nonconforming community will only ever make up less than 1% of the population, it still doesn't mean that it is acceptable to stare at or judge us just because we are different from the norm.

What if Conchita were a woman with hirsuitism or androgen insensitivity syndrome and she CHOSE not to pursue treatments that may reduce her facial hair or give her more feminine characteristics? Should we be "allowed" to stare and judge her then? I don't think so. I'm sorry Reine but prejudice is prejudice and whether you like her or not, whether you thought the song was good or not, Conchita, Annie Lennox, Dana International, Eddie Izzard, Chaz Bono and many others are out there doing their little bit to fight prejudice.

[Leslie Langford]

Interesting discussion here regarding Conchita Wurst, but what I haven't seen yet in this thread are any parallels drawn to the Michael Jackson story.

Here, too, was an amazing talent, but one who also began to challenge established gender norms as time wore on, and whom many considered to be somewhat of a "freak" by the time he met his untimely death. His obsession with plastic surgery and the increasing feminization of his face, the gradual lightening of his skin (vitiligo? Maybe, maybe not), the daily wearing of lipstick and make up, his obvious - albeit consistently denied - attempts to turn himself into a clone of Diana Ross...even the allegations of child abuse and pedophilia...none of these things could detract from his great talent which effectively made him the "King of Pop" during his heyday.

Michael Jackson's diehard fans and supporters (including no less than Elizabeth Taylor) stood by him up until the very end and were able to turn a blind eye to all his quirks. The outpouring of grief when he died was equally breathtaking and gut-wrenching, and no one ever mentioned his unusual appearance throughout all this.

Yes, Conchita also has an amazing talent - not to mention a beard (and the cojones to match ;) ), but taken within the context of the Michael Jackson story, we shouldn't be too surprised that Conchita's dedicated fans were also able to look past her "in your face" (no pun intended - LOL!) presentation and help her achieve the Eurovision title because, frankly, she deserved it.

In fact, I would submit that she more than deserved it because she must have realized from the git-go that by presenting herself the way she did, she was bound to generate considerable controversy and negativity from certain quarters, and that this couldn't help but provide a self-inflicted handicap from Day 1 of this contest compared with the other contestants...but one that she resoundingly overcame in the end.

As an aside, I might add that Conchita's win was a stark contrast to the type of attitudes that we witnessed even in the recent the past in similar competitions - most notably judge Piers Morgan's palpable disdain for incredible Britney Spears impersonator Derrick Barry when he appeared on "America's Got Talent" a few years back.

[ReineD]

And how did the rest of Europe respond to Russia's attack on her? Russia's performance was booed by the entire crowd as were they when they received any points in the voting system, while Conchita was the run away winner in the end, with the entire crowd cheering her along and singing along loudly with her. Therefore its clear that it wasn't just the LGBT community celebrating and supporting her tonight.
At its most basic, Russia and a couple other nations came out attacking Conchita not just for being a bearded lady, but for being a man wearing a dress in the spot light, and the vast majority of Europe gave those nations a big middle finger, and said f*** you, we are on her side. That is a win, no two ways about that. If you watched the Eurovision you would see people were genuinely delighted to see her win!

I didn't watch the show, but I wonder if the support for Conchita was rather wanting to give Russia the middle finger? No one was happy with their stance against gays during the Olympics and I think this is why Johnny Weir and his outfits got such a great reception. :) And Europeans aren't happy right now with Russia's involvement in the Ukraine.

If Russia and other nations had not attacked Conchita, I wonder if the audience's support would have been as great. Admittedly I haven't been following this.



Again, this isn't the case for Conchita. Conchita is a stage persona, Tom Neuwirth doesn't go about his day to day business dressed as a woman with a beard. In fact, in an interview I saw he said part of the reason he wears the beard is because then when he is going about his normal life people don't recognise him so he maintains his anonymity. Conchita is part Tom expressing himself, in a way that someone people obviously won't understand but most on here will, and part a statement that not everybody has to confirm to the "normal" gender roles that a lot of society tries to enforce upon people, and that people can be whoever they want to be. A lot of people are genuinely getting that message.

So he is using his stage presence to make a political statement, and he is being met positively by a large number of people ... likely quite young? Might the support for Conchita be a meme generated as a symbol against the established order more than outright support for gender variant people? In other words, support for the right to say what you want and make a stance, but not actual approval of the lifestyle? I'd much rather people support trans issues genuinely, not just because it's a popular thing to do. How would all the people who respond positively to Conchita's facebook page react if their own boyfriends or best friends were crossdressers who especially preferred to keep their beards while presenting as women? Would they go out with them in public, would they fight for their rights?

I see a difference between supporting an ideal, and actually supporting people who do have gender issues. We see this all the time in this community. GGs are wonderful with CDers when they are their customers (SAs, nail techs, etc), or in principle when it is someone that a GG doesn't know, or even if it is just a friend (a GG might think it cute and offer to do his makeup), but the story changes drastically when she finds out that her husband CDs.

But fundamentally, I find the image of Conchita with a beard jarring. I was pointing out earlier, as idealistic as we might be in thinking that we all have the right to genderf*ck and that we should be totally supported when we do, the fact remains that we do live in a gender binary world and I don't see this changing. Maybe I feel this way because I am too close to the issue with my own SO and I see the reactions when we go out. I live it. As I said earlier, I don't want people thinking of my SO as a man with a beard just because it's a cool thing to do. My SO does not identify as a guy like non-CD men.



If someone wants to go about their day to day business dressed in a skirt wearing makeup and sporting a beard what are they after? Maybe just acceptance that that is who they are,

Quite correct, maybe a cigar is just a cigar. :)

Still, as much as I, in the deepest part of my heart, support anyone's right to present in a manner that reflects who they are, I do find women with beards quite jarring. If it is something that cannot be changed, fine. But there are razors. :)

I have a female friend who needs electrolysis to rid herself of her facial hair. I don't blame her, she doesn't want to be stared at and in her shoes I would do the same. We do not live in a world where the sight of women with beards is frequent. If, however, I were militant and I had a beard, then I purposely would NOT use a razor and I'd be out there saying to the world, "ACCEPT ME AS I AM, DAMN IT". But I would be realistic enough to know that I'd get stared at a lot, like a side show at the circus. Again, there's a difference between ideal and reality.

<Edit> - Why is electrolysis such a huge business with TSs and some CDs, and why do the vast majority of CDers who go out shave as closely as they can and get the best beard cover they can afford? Are they prejudiced as well? They are choosing to conform to the gender binary in terms of looks precisely, I think, because they also believe the look of a woman with a beard is jarring. It is unexpected. It garners stares and unwonted attention.

[mechamoose]

Pretty man with a pretty beard...

The controversy on this is why I feel like an alien.

- MM

[ReineD]

MM, you're a wonderful person to ask this. I think I remember seeing a picture of you dressed and you had a beard (if not, let me know and I'll delete this).

If you were to dress the way that Conchita dressed (an hourglass body with a long, shimmery gown), with a wig like Conchita's and her eye makeup (I should rather say "his" since I gather he identifies as a man), would you keep your beard, and if so, why? Or would you ever present as femininely as Conchita to begin with?

[PaulaQ]

Pretty man with a pretty beard...

The controversy on this is why I feel like an alien.


Oh honey... :hugs: It's OK to be gender queer. I think it's great that someone who flips the bird to the gender binary won! Not everyone's a hater - hey - Conchita won after all.

[mechamoose]

ReineD.. I would sooner cut off my legs than shave my beard. I have had it, non-stop, for 30 years.

During that time I have worn a full body dress and sparkly heels

[ReineD]

Did you wear a long feminine wig and heavy eye makeup, blush, lipstick as well? Did you go out? I'm trying to get an accurate picture.

We do have members who present in public as men and who wear skirts. Maybe even sparkly shoes. :) But, they are presenting as men and not like Conchita. Where do you fall?

[Mink]

in regards to reine's line of questioning or the concept of genderduck (!)...

in 2009/2010 I finally ventured out in public in a dress ... first in California on a trip and then at home in Minnesota... I had a full beard and massive dreadlocks!... no makeup or shaving or wig of any kind

Halloween 2010 i went as a "bearded lady" (it was a hit!)... I shaved my legs but NOT my chest or face... put a wig on over my dreaded hair... it was a sight to behold! but it was Halloween mind you...

in 2011 I cut the dreads which I had had for about 5 years or so... I tried going out in the manner which most do here... fully shaving / makeup / wig and such ... strangely I felt more uncomfortable like that than when I was out with the beard / regular hair! ... i'm not sure why? I still felt like I was just some dude in a dress! ... my avatar pic is the only pic of me I have where I went all out

this last Halloween I did the dress +beard thing again but no body shaving yet a wig and makeup... sure it was Halloween but by this time my group of friends had seen me wearing dresses as a guy multiple times...

I guess I like feeling like there are no rules... I've tried many combos In regards to presentation and still question how I want to go about... I just know that going all out esp. with shaving really didn't make me feel much better or more comfortable or more feminine or more "me"... so it seemed like a LOT of effort for little personal reward

the strangest I guess is how I was much less nervous when I had the dreadlocks and beard... it was like "yeah this is me... what of it?" or why are you wearing a dress? I don't know... I like wearing 'em / just felt like it! that sort of thing... now that I look less "weird" I get scared about what people think more... it's odd...

i'm sort of on opposite sides because sometimes I just didn't care what people thought or liked the attention / provoking a reaction but at he same time i'm actually quite nervous and sensitive to how others react... I think a LOT of it has to do with the mood i'm In who i'm with what setting I am or the context of the situation

there was this underground queer space in Minneapolis that pretty much had an anything goes vibe... lots of mixed presentations going on... and no one cared! we just talked like normal or complimented random choices or articles of clothing... I miss that place!

but that was more a special place that was not only more "The Youth" of today but also DIY (do it yourself) underground type dealy ...

[mechamoose]

Mascara, eye shadow, lipstick.. yes.

All with muscles & fur.

[ReineD]

Wow, you're brave. What was the reaction, and why did you choose to present this way?

Thanks for answering. :)

[mechamoose]

"Polite blindness"

Maybe it is because I'm a big 'ol beast they don't call me out. How do I tell?

I still get called 'sir'.

I present this way because it is who I feel like. It is who I am. I'm not a guy, I'm not a girl, I'm something else.

- MM

[Zylia]

I didn't watch the show, but I wonder if the support for Conchita was rather wanting to give Russia the middle finger?
So why didn't Ukraine win in that case ;) Granted, they finished sixth, also way too high considering the song. Anyway, causal reductionism is causal reductionism. I agree with Nicola's post, but you make a fair point too. She got the LGBT vote and the protests and controversy strengthened her position as well.

[ReineD]

I present this way because it is who I feel like. It is who I am. I'm not a guy, I'm not a girl, I'm something else.


Then I apologize if my comments made you feel like an alien.

The first time I ever saw a crossdresser (she presented totally as a woman) was at a women's meeting I used to attend. I wasn't staring, but I kept sneaking furtive glances. My brain was getting accustomed to the idea of a male presenting as a woman. There was no beard. After a few meetings, I think about 3 or 4, my friend's appearance became more normal to me. It took time. Through the course of that time I was getting to know her as well (she identified as a she), and we had talked. My point is that my friend's look was jarring to me at first, precisely because it was all new. But then through repeated exposure, things changed.

I don't think this will happen with women who wear beards, no matter how many Conchitas there are making statements for genderqueerness. There just are not enough around to make that difference. I imagine that Conchita would know what to expect should he (I do believe he identifies as a male) go out in public like this in his day-to-day life. And if Conchita hated being stared at (or being purposely ignored like you), then he would have to make a choice, either to not care and continue being Conchita, or shave the beard. One or the other. But I think it would be unrealistic of Conchita to expect people to not stare.

If I'm wrong, then I'll eat my slippers. :p

[KittyD]

I thought the show was great and the best ever :) As for Thomas "Tom" Neuwirth AKA Conchita Wurst "Wurst means 'sausage' in German" he is a Drag act and a comedian with a great voice and talent :)
What he did here was great but nothing new, men with beards and drag have been around before. Remember the great and sadly missed Kenny everett... Still that said Tom really did have a great Eurovision winning tune.
Most of the songs thoughtout the night sounded more like Jame Bond theme tunes to be honest...! Main thing is he did his own thing and he looked amazing and made so many people happy :)

[Teresa]

I think our community is going to get a bad backlash from all this, many are going to jump on the bandwagon and make fun and bring ridicule on a serious and important part of our lives ! How Conchita deals with the limelight now and what the bottom line is on her CDing act is going to make a big impact on the whole scene like never before because of the way the media community now works ! It may not be the flag waving we expect but more keep your heads down !

[Kate T]

The jarring that you talk about Reine is as you have acknowledged a purely social thing due to lack of exposure. Maybe there will never be enough exposure to bearded ladies to "normalise" them. Who knows. Stranger things have happened. That is not really the point though. The issue is whether such a performance and performer is good for both this specific community and for the general community. The answer in my opinion is clearly YES. Sure, one exposure is not enough to normalise it but it is still many times better than NO exposure. Perhaps we should never mention or express something that is not consistent with society average. That should work, we will just hide in a closet until society changes itself.

If we wait for popularism before we push for social justice then we will be waiting a long time indeed and many important social equalities of the last 100 years would never have even started.

Yes I have had laser on my beard to reduce it, and no I am not TS but rather CD / Bigender / Genderqueer. Why did I get it done? Because I genuinely don't like my facial hair and the beard stubble etc. It is my choice and my expression. I don't get stared at because I don't have a beard.

So if you wanted to go out with a beard Reine I would back you up 110%. If you don't and wish to have electrolysis or shave then I will still back you up 110%. I most certainly will not tear you down, suggest that maybe you should just shave so that you can fit in and be less jarring, and I will not judge you other than to say I think you are a brave person to be who you want to be.

[Katey888]

A lot of good stuff has already been noted about this already - this stands out for me as the best summary of how I read it and the truth of how most European Citizens are likely to...


Does the general audience celebrate Conchita Wurst because of her performance ability and her beauty, or are people fascinated with the novel aspect of a feminine looking person who is really a man with a beard? If it's the latter, then I don't think capitalizing on the sensationalism is doing this community any favors. I don't want people to look at my SO as some sort of freak, who does this for shock value possibly for political reasons.

I think that only members of the LGBTQ community will celebrate the bold statement for diversity made by Conchita. The rest of the audience, I'm afraid, will see it as a side show.

And sadly Eurovision has little going for it by way of uniting opinion - political or otherwise - and I still feel that the motivation of why someone is doing something is relevant - so this also for me, sums up the motivation:


Conchita is an entertainer, not a crossdresser; she may be talented and put on a good show but that does not make her part of this community.

Conchita/Tom is doing this for the celebrity and the real fame/ financial payback - I don't really feel there's anything more than that for him... And while the good folk and Eurocrats of all the individual countries and broadcasting commissions may appear to have been making a 'political' statement about either the positive attributes of accepting alternative or LGBTQ lifestyles and/or a metaphorical finger to Mr Putin to say 'we in Europe embrace Conchita because we know you and your lot don't' - it won't make a difference in either case - the first is just political correctness; the latter might assuage some political feelings for the lack of a more practical and effective economic and military policy for the plight of Ukraine... (I can just hear the conversation in the corridors of Brussels in a few months time: "Well I know that Putin has now effectively annexed half of Ukraine and is now posturing at the Baltic states - and yes, I know NATO has done nothing and we won't implement further economic sanctions because he'll cut off half our gas supply... but we really gave him a bloody nose over Eurovision!" :facepalm:)

If the UK were to enter a DQ with a comical name (Sophia Sausage?) it would be regarded as a joke, right?

I wish it were otherwise, but all that seems to be coming out of the media coverage is that anyone who wears a dress, and maybe a beard, and identifies as male, is gay and a DQ... :doh:

Katey x

[MissVictoria]

I have gone out both 100% en femme, shaven, made up and tressed with long locks. I've also run errands to the mall in a short summer dress, high wedge sandals, make-up and a heavy 5 o'clock shadow, with no wig. I am semi passable, and will get looked at either way. Why should I take extra time out of my day to present "properly"(others words, not mine) when it really doesnt matter or gives me cause for concern? I have had people try to sneak a cell phone pic both ways, to which I will always ask if they want me to pose. Some have eaten crow and walked away, others have taken me up on the offer. Both ways, I am me, and you get me either way. I don't consider myself a woman trapped in a mans body, nor is it something I need to do. As I stated in another thread, this is what I do in my free time. Honestly, pushing the gender envelope to me is alot more fun than trying to blend into the masses. I have had great discussions with many different types of people about my look. Sales associates escpecially, at the store I frequent, like Torrid and Forever 21, get a kick out of it, and each time, I leave with them knowing that I am not some sort of freak there to eat their children and set fire to their clothes, but a normal guy who likes to look pretty every now and then.

[Beverley Sims]

Claire,
I don't think it upsets the community at all.

It is not how I would want to appear, many do and are happy doing it.

To each their own and as long as people don't want to inflict their views on to me, who am I to care.

[Jenniferathome]

This victory says nothing about acceptance. It's a side show. If a monkey could sing, the money would have won. Acceptance doesn't come on a public stage, it comes in the grocery store or library, or sidewalk in anytown.

[Rachel Morley]

I imagine that Conchita would know what to expect should he (I do believe he identifies as a male) go out in public like this in his day-to-day life.
From what I can tell, that is correct. Here's an interview where he/she says the look is all about a stage persona and he is "a boy at home".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-JFLUWQGk#t=5m10s

In case the link to the exact point in the interview doesn't work, start watching at 5 mins 10 seconds in.

[ReineD]

... and each time, I leave with them knowing that I am not some sort of freak there to eat their children and set fire to their clothes, but a normal guy who likes to look pretty every now and then.

I think it is the same with crossdressers who do attempt to blend in. People are suspicious and some may even feel threatened until they actually have human interaction, at which time they discover that there is no threat even if they still think it is somewhat weird.

I don't know that seeing a normal guy with a beard and wearing a dress is pretty though, not in the way that most people consider is pretty. Interesting or entertaining (if you are doing this for fun) might be better words to use, and even educational especially if you engage in conversations about needing to present the way you do because it is a reflection of who you are, neither male nor female like MM? This is not, however, what Conchita is doing. Conchita is most definitely male.


Perhaps we should never mention or express something that is not consistent with society average. That should work, we will just hide in a closet until society changes itself.

I'm not advocating hiding at all, not for members like Mechanical Moose, MissVictoria, and others even if they think, like MissVictoria, that pushing the gender envelope is a lot more fun that going along with the masses. I just don't think that popularizing pushing the envelope by being a male bearded lady on stage does anything to help the general public gain any understanding of gender issues, even if thousands of young people feel that it is cool to see someone push an envelope. And the danger, in my view, is also to have people think that my SO and others like her, present the way they do because this is a fun, or interesting, or political thing to do. It goes a lot deeper than that.

And if I did have a beard and decided to wear it proudly to make a point, I don't think I'd need support. I would already have decided that my statement would garner attention and I'd be prepared for the reactions.

Another analogy: I knew several young members of a trans support group that were FtM. In time, the ones who didn't have mastectomies and HRT decided they were not males in female bodies after all, although they were very masculine women who preferred to present butch and stay in the lesbian community. None of them wore push up bras and makeup along with their male haircuts and male clothing. They chose to not feature the feminine aspects of their bodies because this was not who they were and I dare say they did not also want to form a side show. They wanted to live and work in peace and to be accepted for who they were, and not be noticed for making political statements.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

[NicolaF]

I'm amazed at how so many people on here are viewing this negatively, this is the only place where I have seen this kind of reaction, all other social media I have looked at, twitter especially, have had nothing but praise for the result last night and the message it sends.


As for Thomas "Tom" Neuwirth AKA Conchita Wurst "Wurst means 'sausage' in German" he is a Drag act and a comedian with a great voice and talent
If the UK were to enter a DQ with a comical name (Sophia Sausage?) it would be regarded as a joke, right?

I can only assume from reading comments like these that you did not watch the show last night or know much about Tom. Conchita is not a drag act or comedian, he has never done any sort of comedy as Conchita, only singing. And taken from his wikipedia page "While in German, Wurst means 'sausage,' the performer compares the choice of last name to the common German expression 'Das ist mir doch alles Wurst,' which translates as 'it's all the same to me,' and 'I don't care,' stating that the name emerged from the first meaning of the expression[5] and added, "It doesn't really matter where one comes from, and what one looks like." In the same interview the performer stated that the first name was from a Cuban friend." You could clearly tell from how emotional Conchita was last night after winning that this was not some sort of joke to her, as she said herself when she picked up the award; "this night is dedicated to everyone who believes in a future of peace and freedom...we are unity and we are unstoppable."

Just after searching #ConchitaWurst on twitter and all the tweets are so positive, one of the first ones I read said "Go Conchita! The world needs your message. As an Austrian I am proud of you and as a gay woman I am". But for some reason a lot on here seem to have viewed this so differently, I am very surprised!

[Badtranny]

Conchita is a Drag Queen. An entertainer who may indeed have an impact on pop culture but why the TG community would look to her for social cues is beyond me.

I love drag queens and drag culture, but I don't look to that particular community for style or grooming tips. Drag is becoming more mainstream and that couldn't possibly be a bad thing but let's not confuse performers who challenge gender politics on stage with people who challenge gender ideology at work.

Entertainers have always been at the bleeding edge of acceptance. Once Joe and Jane Average become fans, then it slowly becomes more difficult for them to think of 'those people' as all that different. This is progress kids, like it or not the world is beginning to acknowledge that maybe gender roles shouldn't be so rigid. Maybe a pretty face can have a beard. Maybe a penis doesn't necessarily make the man.

[Katey888]

Nicola,
I think you're missing the perspective of those of us who tried to respond to the OP - which core question for me was :
"But do you think things like this do the community good or harm, i'm unsure myself?"
To some extent, it matters less what this community thinks about Conchita (us being a tiny, teeny minority...) and more what the muggles think (the vast, unthinking, unaccepting, plebs sordida...) - and they, in turn, are heavily influenced by what the media are feeding them, and the UK media do not portray Tom/Conchita as TG, but as a gay man, who entertains in the guise of a DQ... Tom admits himself that he has created the persona to 'differentiate' him as an entertainer...
Personally, I could care less how Tom decides to look - I don't believe he's a campaigner as such, I'd expect that after Eurovision he'll only crop up on shows for his singing (which is good...) and the novelty factor. He doesn't see himself as a 'she' I believe (although the media, interestingly, all refer to her, she or Ms.) - he is an unconditional gay Mr. who does this for entertainment. I think it's the negative, homophobic campaigning from our Eastern European neighbours that has turned him - quite literally - into a cause celebre, not his own political conscience. The fact that he has come out with some pleasant but meaningless expression of 'unity' and 'peace and freedom' is what we used to get at the end of Miss World events... nice sentiments but not really carrying any weight..

And maybe social media is being positive on the whole - but there's still the typically bad stuff.... this, for example, on YT against one of Conchita's earlier TV appearances: "Don't let your kids watch this, they will be confused as f***. That's what's wrong with this kind of people, destroying the society and the natural way of things." :eek:
And that is probably not the worst, but I'd suggest pretty typical of a lot...

Katey x

[NicolaF]

I see what you are saying Katey

I think I was mostly focused on the overall outlook of this as a "win" for the LGBT community but maybe I wasn't focused enough what it means for our smaller niche inside that community.

At the end of the day I still believe it is a good thing for us, as I have seen a lot of people genuinely reacting so positively towards her, but maybe as it has been pointed out already in here those showing support for her were most likely supports in one way or another of LGBT rights already. As for the negative comments people are leaving her, unfortunately you will always have people like that, and to be honest I feel more sorry for the people who feel the need to go out of their way to show their hate because they obviously don't have true happiness in their own lives and so feel the need to bring down others.

Really it is probably a moot point overall. Those supporting Conchita were probably already on her side of the argument while those against her are those who are stuck in their ideas and probably will never change their opinions.

On a personal level I'm taking a lot of positives from it all anyway. As someone who is very deeply in the closet about my crossdressing/trans nature I have seen her as a huge inspiration and it already seems to have a minor upside for me. After clicking "like" on Conchita's Facebook page (something which I would never have done before because I am still trying to keep this aspect of my life secret from my friends) a random girl I know who also liked Conchita's page struck up a conversation with me about her and by the end of it I even sent her a picture of myself from one of my only times fully dressed which not too many have seen (done as a Halloween "joke", or so I was telling people :heehee: ), so I think I have found a friend who I may be able to open up to. So for that I thank you Conchita, Queen of Europe!! :D

[Helen_Highwater]

I know this is going a little off piste but I did wonder if the beard was dyed black just to emphasize the dichotomy.

As for having an effect on public opinion? That might be measured by just how much this gets talked about on Monday as part of the work place banter.

[Lainie]

We should all be delighted at Conchita's success--a big win for her & for us. Look at the context--the Russian entry was booed. Putin has made a big deal of suppressing GLBT people, from Pussy Riot to the Olympics. He's also made a lot of enemies in Europe with the ongoing campaign against the Ukraine. Now an opportunity arises for the West to embrace in-your-face genderf***ing, in a huge cultural event that everyone watches, everyone makes fun of, and everyone loves. Conchita's the bearded lady at the circus, and all of Europe says "Let's have a little fun, let's accept everyone! We hate war and violence, not pretty men in glamorous dresses. We accept the bearded lady & reject the masked militants!"

As for me, I've had a handlebar mustache for 40 years, & have been going out shopping & partying fully en en femme for only about a decade. Sometimes I've covered up the mustache with a mask, but I don't think I will in future. Maybe it's time for me to start wearing eye make-up!

[Dena]

I thought he is an amazing singer, I just don't like the beard. Maybe if he styled it differently? I probably still wouldn't care for it. I also don't think it helps the average crossdresser.

[devida]

I am glad that this forum is so disparate in its opinions. Strangely enough in my ordinary life I rarely encounter opinions as conservative and to my mind as constricted and self denying as I encounter here. Of course, this is just to my mind and I am a flaming bisexual queer, an unabashed liberal and progressive and happily out non binary. I am hardly going to think opinions from transgender people and cross dressers that state that not allowing people to present in any way they damn well please is anything but a bizarre denial of their own potential for happiness

I am completely baffled why, in a forum consisting of people deliberately and continuously transgressing against social norms of gender appropriate clothing, anyone would think wearing a beard and presenting feminine was strange. I'm with mechamoose 100%. I often feel quite alien and alienated from people who, you would think, should be my natural allies.

Look, Conchita Wurst is not my hero. I think Eurovision is kind of silly but it seems to make all kinds of people happy. I find some of Conchita's personal history a bit disturbing but if I will attack this person it will be on the basis of racial insensitivity not whatever gender or gender presentation they want to express. Dressing en femme with a beard, as I guess you could tell from comments on this thread, is a presentation that some members actually do. The reason this is a legitimate and totally defensible presentation of gender is because they do it. What possible grounds could anyone have for saying that it wasn't? Or that it somehow hurts the community? What community? Or do you mean the incredibly narrow section of people who act and think the way you act and think?

In my case that is a community of precisely one.

If you are transgender you get to present yourself in the way you think feels right. There are no rulebooks for transgender presentation. You do what makes you feel good about yourself. And you criticize other people's presentation at your own peril because everything I can understand about being trans is that it isn't static. So criticize people for the way they appear today and believe me you'll remember this when you look in the mirror tomorrow or in a few years and you realize you will never live up to the standards you have set for yourself.

Finally, I have to say that if you think Conchita Wurst is weird you have no idea how weird it is going to get. Transgender people are right there at the bleeding edge of body modifiers and people who modify their bodies or presentation as radically as cross dressers need to recognize this. We people are doing something downright unusual. There is no appropriate or standardized presentation for transgender people. Trans people and the people who love trans people need to be at the forefront of people who understand this. It is a shame that an audience of Eurovision fans understand this better than we do.