20 years later

[Gigicd]

If I'm in the wrong category to post what's on my mind, please forgive and let me know so I can correct it.

25 years ago I met the love of my life. Within weeks we found each other's "thing", mine c-d'ing, hers b/d and s/m. It often, half the time, made for a perfect combination as I, even when dressed, am dom.

We had the ups and downs everyone describes----she'd be 1000% willing to play along and go out and do anything, then a week later it would be a humongous fight, why can't you stop, yadayada (much of this was tied irrefutably to her monthly cycle.)

Two mostly blissful years were followed by two of her making my cd-ing her Croix de guere. Including drunken insults, berating, etc.

We broke up and at the time I was glad to get away. It was right about the time of the Loreena Bobbit situation, and my girlfriend blamed everything on my CD: why we weren't married, and on and on, and I grew afraid to sleep with her (she had other documented psychological issues)

Here's the question or just the observation: my girlfriend had been in THEATER all her life. Had gay friends. Was a professional in theater. An advocate of gay rights and fully understanding and supportive of everything gay. I learned she dabbled in lesbianism starting in high school; her best friend is in a gay marriage.

Now, my cd-ing does not have to be "gay" as we all know, and mine isn't. If someone's is, fine with me. I happened to be one of those hetero cd's.

So-----she (my true north, 25 years ago, lasting five or six years) was all supportive of transgender, even CD/TV, gays, etc., in the theater circles she ran in, but when it came to me she treated my like a pervert who'd tricked her to join in and who was about one step above dirt, SICK (not in a good way), like mentally ill. She could not marry someone with that perversion and mental illness. (All the while pushing our b/d, s/m adventures with her as the submissive to the MAX.

It was up and down, with her egging me on, DARING me to do daring things in public, participating like not just trying to please me but enjoying it herself (which may have been like faking an orgasm, but that's ok.) Then a week later she'd use her razor sharp tongue to cut me to the bone for being so awful, weird, perverted and the devil.

I guess this is a statement more than anything else: practically raised in theater, a milieu where gays are disproportionately present and totally accepted, and transgenderism (though not accepted 24 years ago as much as today, perhaps) was something she was well aware of and like it or not it gets bucketed with homosexuality in the minds of many. So while even herself participating in girl-on-girl, and staunchly defending GLBTs, and her many close friends in theater of that inclination, she treated my crossdressing like it was akin to beastiality or WORSE.

25 years later I still don't get it. That part of it. I understand and accept totally that for many or the vast majority of women, it simply would not be acceptable and WOULD be considered a perversion. But for a "liberal" minded co-worker with and champion of GLBT people in all aspects of theater, yet treating me like not only was I mentally demented but had purposely ruined her life with it.

I understand, I think, every other dynamic in our ultimately failed relationship except that one. Was it a case of "I can do what *I want to, but what YOU want to is too weird for me to do"?

[PaulaQ]

A lot of women have trouble accepting gender variance in their spouses. My wife is completely supportive of GLBT rights. (Well, maybe not so much on "T" now, after dealing with me...) She's liberal minded, and has always supported marriage equality. If our best friend were transgender - she'd have taken him shopping and been totally accepting and supportive.

For her own spouse though? No freaking way. Now true - I'm transsexual, and we can agree that by transitioning I violated all the laws of matrimony and the natural order of things, so no harm, no foul on her part for not being able to stand me. But I am quite certain that even were I "just a CD", my wife wouldn't have handled it. I know her, and the relatively minor stuff I did while we remained together completely repulsed her.

I think a lot of women simply find a relationship with a gender variant male to be just totally repulsive.

In the case of your SO, I suspect that:
1. Your CDing made her ask questions about her own sexuality that she didn't want to deal with
2. Your CDing just didn't do it for her in terms of her bdsm needs, and that really made her unhappy

But those are just guesses on my part. In the end, it doesn't really matter whether we understand or not. It simply is what it is.

[Teresa]

Gigi,
I have worked with amateur actors ( photographed for publicity and brochures ) and found that their on stage off stage lives became very blurred, many did believe " Life is a stage " and when they did realise became either very introvert or over the top argumentative and aggressive. Also actors do suffer badly from identity problems !
It sounds as if you were made to be a reluctant actor or an off stage punchbag.
I hope you are now free to come to terms with your Cding, I'm sure the forum will help you, we are not the lowest of the low, we are stuck with something that can actually be enjoyed and possibly shared with the right person.

[Marcelle]

Hey Gigi,

Wow 25 years is long time and it does appear that you have a deep relation with your wife as you are still together. I do however (in my opinion) sense a bit of a control issue with your wife. On one hand she (as you say) plays the "liberal minded and champion of GLBT people" but does not afford you the same. She accepts your CDing, encourages you then "cuts you down to the bone" with insults and demands. She is then fine and the cycle begins again. It appears (once again my opinion only) that she wants to control the relationship on her terms (my way is fine, yours not so much) in an effort to control you. I truly believe you need to have a pointed conversation with her on what she wants. Does she want you to dress or not. If "yes" then why all the reversals and mean spirited talk. Perhaps she is not as accepting as she claims to be when it comes to CDing but in either case you really need to set some guidelines. When it comes to CDing both parties need to agree on a way ahead, not just a one sided demand. If she doesn't appreciate your CDing then perhaps a DADT relationship is best.

Hugs

Isha

[donnalee]

Over the years I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that this kind of hypocrisy is pretty much human nature. We will give lip service to whatever is gospel for our social group or to support our own differences that the general public might look down on, but have severe difficulty applying it to our personal lives. This is not at all a rare occurrence, especially if we feel in some way our own behavior is reprehensible.

[Amanda M]

In a land far away, a long time ago, my wife was a professional ballet dancer and choreographer, so naturally we had lots of contact with theater folk, amateur and professional. To me, they were amongst the most fun people you could meet. Gender issues? What gender issues?

[Alice Torn]

The plain ruth is that women deep down want a man who is a protector, provider, masculine, somewhat macho, but also one she can communicae well with. I see hundreds of rough bikers with women go by my place every day. I ride my bicycle, and no women want to join me!! Sadly, for us singles who crossdress even only part time, it will be a frozen day in July before we find a lady who really deep down wants a man who dresses up. I see on here, that there are exceptions, and how rare such women are! Marriage seems to be messy enough, even without the CD dynamic throwing another huge issue in.

[Beverley Sims]

I have met similar in theatre I take little notice of them and their pedantic retorts, there are a lot of gay men like that as well, they use their "power" to manipulate others and if you are straight in the theatre world it annoys the hell out of them as they don't get their way.

Especially when they require services that you only provide. :)

Well not with me anyway.
No one in the theatre world know I dress either. :)

[samantha rogers]

Ok, this one definitely caught my attention. Beverley, we may have more than dresses in common, honey. Although, as a ...giggle...straight....giggle...leading man, I never encountered any problem with gay advances. Yes, I was approached all the time, but a simple "no, thanks, I'm straight" was always all it took to end the advance and with zero subsequent backlash.
I am an actor, and not an amateur. I trained as a classical actor and spent three decades in professional theatres all over the US and in Europe. I may not be completely a man, but I played one on TV...tee hee.
I cannot speak for the woman you describe, but I came preciously close to being offended by some implied blanket generalizations about theatre people ... Lol
I can say with absolute assurance that theatre people are some of the kindest, and warmest, most liberal minded and supporting people on the planet. Yes, they can have issues. Many are emotionally needy, and some are especially so. Artists of all stripes often are. On the other hand, that very insecurity often makes them among the most empathetic and understanding toward others.
Now I will say that there can be a world of difference between the worlds of classical theatre and that of musical theatre. Yes, the latter employs a large number of gay persons, far more in general than does the former. For every gay actor that engages in odd or kinky sex situations there are dozens who do not but rather find a loving partner and simply live there lives as any other married couple might.
But, regardless, in thirty years in pro theatre I never found the percentage of "difficult" individuals to be higher than in any other walk of life. In fact, a really good thing about theatre people is that, as they are trained to analyze human behavior as part of working on a play, they tend to be on the whole far more self aware of their own issues, and in many ways more willing and better able to deal with those issues.
When I did run across people with severe personal oddities, it was my experience that they were outside the mainstream of theatre professionals, and less likely to succeed in long careers.
My guess is that the woman you describe was an anomaly, with issues, and nothing more. Ascribing her personal shortcomings to theatre people in general is...sorry if this is hurtful...no different than a muggle assuming all crossdressers are deviant sex fiends intent on molesting children.

[Katey888]

Dear Gigi,

Let me say first of all you're in the right place... :) Both in terms of the category and finding your way to this forum... so that's a good start...

Unfortunately with the situation you describe, I believe what you've experienced is a reaction of the kind that many of us hold as our deepest fears: just the inability of someone (but worse - someone closest to us...) to accept something about us that is inexplicable, maybe embarrassing, but ultimately not diabolical - and yet someone who may be accepting of other aspects considered by many as definitely kinky and maybe perverse, and yet they could not find their way to accept one of us...

But we're also practically not here to help her, but to help and support you... :hugs:

And it strikes me that as this amount of time has passed, you really need to find a way through to leaving this behind, such that you accept that is isn't perverse, or wrong, or demented - and you're not insane, and it clearly isn't something that you or any of us, for that matter, can choose to just leave behind as if it were an acquired whim.

No - I don't think anyone has yet sufficiently explained it, but the vast number of experiences and attitudes demonstrated by folk on this forum says that on the whole, we're a pretty well-balanced and 'normal' bunch otherwise, and that this strange passion we have shouldn't be held against us just because it's taboo and inexplicable, because actually we're as good people as everyone else out there in normal world.

Try to find a way to move beyond this - it sounds like a good opportunity where some appropriate counselling would help you if you haven't already tried... :)

I hope you can... I'm glad you felt you could share it with us...

Katey x

[PaulaQ]

The short version of the type of attitude you encountered hon is: NIMBY - Not In My Back Yard. Lots of people support all sorts of things until it affects them personally.

[sometimes_miss]

I think one of the things a lot of us tend to forget, is that women discuss their relationship with us, with their friends, almost constantly; and they are often affected by those conversations a great deal. So at one point she may be very accepting, perhaps someone else had a different experience, casting a negative light on women's relationships with men who are in any way less than traditional 'strong, silent' types, who display zero female behaviors. Also, I have also met women who were not mentally healthy, and because of that had trouble attracting ANY males, so they tried to attract me by saying that they were o.k. with crossdressing, when in reality, they were simply barely tolerating it so that I would be accepting of their insane behavior. Eventually push came to shove, and they admitted that they DID have a problem with crossdressing and didn't like it at all. It's simply a case where women hold us to a different standard than they do for themselves. In a world full of double standards, it's really no surprise. But one thing seems to remain a constant; women are disturbed by feminine men: It seems to trigger deep feelings of insecurity, as Alice mentioned, because women always have a feeling of being dependent upon men for protection, and anything that upsets that feeling they're simply never going to be comfortable with.

[Gigicd]

There's a lot of truth in that. Some insights I have never thought of ...Thank you.

[Gigicd]

Yes, that is a great insight that sums up a lot of things. Thank you

[Gigicd]

PS MUSICAL theater

[Gigicd]

I think one of the things a lot of us tend to forget, is that women discuss their relationship with us, with their friends, almost constantly; and they are often affected by those conversations a great deal. So at one point she may be very accepting, perhaps someone else had a different experience, casting a negative light on women's relationships with men who are in any way less than traditional 'strong, silent' types, who display zero female behaviors. Also, I have also met women who were not mentally healthy, and because of that had trouble attracting ANY males, so they tried to attract me by saying that they were o.k. with crossdressing, when in reality, they were simply barely tolerating it so that I would be accepting of their insane behavior. Eventually push came to shove, and they admitted that they DID have a problem with crossdressing and didn't like it at all. It's simply a case where women hold us to a different standard than they do for themselves. In a world full of double standards, it's really no surprise. But one thing seems to remain a constant; women are disturbed by feminine men: It seems to trigger deep feelings of insecurity, as Alice mentioned, because women always have a feeling of being dependent upon men for protection, and anything that upsets that feeling they're simply never going to be comfortable with.


Wow, you are really right about the discussion of relationships with their friends.

[Gigicd]

Gigi,
I have worked with amateur actors ( photographed for publicity and brochures ) and found that their on stage off stage lives became very blurred, many did believe " Life is a stage " and when they did realise became either very introvert or over the top argumentative and aggressive. Also actors do suffer badly from identity problems !
It sounds as if you were made to be a reluctant actor or an off stage punchbag.
I hope you are now free to come to terms with your Cding, I'm sure the forum will help you, we are not the lowest of the low, we are stuck with something that can actually be enjoyed and possibly shared with the right person.

Thank you!

[Gigicd]

The plain ruth is that women deep down want a man who is a protector, provider, masculine, somewhat macho, but also one she can communicae well with. I see hundreds of rough bikers with women go by my place every day. I ride my bicycle, and no women want to join me!! Sadly, for us singles who crossdress even only part time, it will be a frozen day in July before we find a lady who really deep down wants a man who dresses up. I see on here, that there are exceptions, and how rare such women are! Marriage seems to be messy enough, even without the CD dynamic throwing another huge issue in.

Very well said.

[Gigicd]

Dear Gigi,

Let me say first of all you're in the right place... :) Both in terms of the category and finding your way to this forum... so that's a good start...

Unfortunately with the situation you describe, I believe what you've experienced is a reaction of the kind that many of us hold as our deepest fears: just the inability of someone (but worse - someone closest to us...) to accept something about us that is inexplicable, maybe embarrassing, but ultimately not diabolical - and yet someone who may be accepting of other aspects considered by many as definitely kinky and maybe perverse, and yet they could not find their way to accept one of us...

But we're also practically not here to help her, but to help and support you... :hugs:

And it strikes me that as this amount of time has passed, you really need to find a way through to leaving this behind, such that you accept that is isn't perverse, or wrong, or demented - and you're not insane, and it clearly isn't something that you or any of us, for that matter, can choose to just leave behind as if it were an acquired whim.

No - I don't think anyone has yet sufficiently explained it, but the vast number of experiences and attitudes demonstrated by folk on this forum says that on the whole, we're a pretty well-balanced and 'normal' bunch otherwise, and that this strange passion we have shouldn't be held against us just because it's taboo and inexplicable, because actually we're as good people as everyone else out there in normal world.

Try to find a way to move beyond this - it sounds like a good opportunity where some appropriate counselling would help you if you haven't already tried... :)

I hope you can... I'm glad you felt you could share it with us...

Katey x

Thank you very much.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Gigi, If it was me I would sleep in a Chasity belt with the key clinched tightly between my butt cheeks.

[Gigicd]

Thanks to each of you for taking the time to reply.

We were never married. Lasted 5 years or so, starting 23 to 25 years ago (depending on how you measure a START DATE in a relationship) and ended 18 to 20 years ago, depending on how you define "the end."

I had my best, most fulfilling CD-ing AFTER we broke up, fyi. LOL.

I've read a lot on the crossdressers wives website, so I know how they feel---LOL (mostly pure self-centeredness, and hate often accompanied by violence, threats, outings, destruction of property, etc. LOL)

But I seriously understand her feelings. Seriously. And I really agree. It just the hypocrisy, as someone mentioned, I've always wondered about.

[Gigicd]

You wrote: In the case of your SO, I suspect that:
1. Your CDing made her ask questions about her own sexuality that she didn't want to deal with
2. Your CDing just didn't do it for her in terms of her bdsm needs, and that really made her unhappy

I think you captured a big part of it, the first I had thought of, though not given enough emphasis to, and the second I had not thought of but looking back on the hundreds of hours of bdsm, often or ~50% of the time while I was dressed, I can really see what you're saying.

[Gigicd]

I think one of the things a lot of us tend to forget, is that women discuss their relationship with us, with their friends, almost constantly; and they are often affected by those conversations a great deal. So at one point she may be very accepting, perhaps someone else had a different experience, casting a negative light on women's relationships with men who are in any way less than traditional 'strong, silent' types, who display zero female behaviors. Also, I have also met women who were not mentally healthy, and because of that had trouble attracting ANY males, so they tried to attract me by saying that they were o.k. with crossdressing, when in reality, they were simply barely tolerating it so that I would be accepting of their insane behavior. Eventually push came to shove, and they admitted that they DID have a problem with crossdressing and didn't like it at all. It's simply a case where women hold us to a different standard than they do for themselves. In a world full of double standards, it's really no surprise. But one thing seems to remain a constant; women are disturbed by feminine men: It seems to trigger deep feelings of insecurity, as Alice mentioned, because women always have a feeling of being dependent upon men for protection, and anything that upsets that feeling they're simply never going to be comfortable with.

You are so right about everything you said.

[Gigicd]

Hey Gigi,

Wow 25 years is long time and it does appear that you have a deep relation with your wife as you are still together. I do however (in my opinion) sense a bit of a control issue with your wife. On one hand she (as you say) plays the "liberal minded and champion of GLBT people" but does not afford you the same. She accepts your CDing, encourages you then "cuts you down to the bone" with insults and demands. She is then fine and the cycle begins again. It appears (once again my opinion only) that she wants to control the relationship on her terms (my way is fine, yours not so much) in an effort to control you. I truly believe you need to have a pointed conversation with her on what she wants. Does she want you to dress or not. If "yes" then why all the reversals and mean spirited talk. Perhaps she is not as accepting as she claims to be when it comes to CDing but in either case you really need to set some guidelines. When it comes to CDing both parties need to agree on a way ahead, not just a one sided demand. If she doesn't appreciate your CDing then perhaps a DADT relationship is best.

Hugs

Isha

I like the DADT part! (and don't get married, I would add LOL, which luckily we didn't and I haven't since---enabling several years of adventurous traveling and public cd-ing that would have otherwise have been impossible. Downside: I am now old and alone and those things spouses do for you and you do for them in old age---I am now at the mercy of the (diminishing) kindness of others.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm shooting in the dark here, Gigi. But, I DO have a lot of experience with women. Including the mad one I married then divorced before I caught her insanity!

This woman was angry with u because u were not the dominant alpha male of her dreams. And, she was angry with herself for hitching up with u. There were times when u satisfied her and she was thrilled with u and possibly Gigi. There were the other times when it all seemed a horrible waste of her youth and her clock was ticking!

From my couples experience? It sounds like u were the perfect couple for the honeymoon. (Which generally lasts up to 3 years for most couples). And, typically unsuited for a long term relationship. Happens more times than not. (Over 50% divorce rate in the US and MANY folks don't divorce for financial and "the children" reasons).

What I'm so pleased about your broken relationship is the LACK of an acrimonious divorce and terrible child custody fite! I believe u r one of the most fortunate dressers here. I hope u appreciate that?

[Gigicd]

I'm shooting in the dark here, Gigi. But, I DO have a lot of experience with women. Including the mad one I married then divorced before I caught her insanity!

This woman was angry with u because u were not the dominant alpha male of her dreams. And, she was angry with herself for hitching up with u. There were times when u satisfied her and she was thrilled with u and possibly Gigi. There were the other times when it all seemed a horrible waste of her youth and her clock was ticking!

From my couples experience? It sounds like u were the perfect couple for the honeymoon. (Which generally lasts up to 3 years for most couples). And, typically unsuited for a long term relationship. Happens more times than not. (Over 50% divorce rate in the US and MANY folks don't divorce for financial and "the children" reasons).

What I'm so pleased about your broken relationship is the LACK of an acrimonious divorce and terrible child custody fite! I believe u r one of the most fortunate dressers here. I hope u appreciate that?


You just about nailed it: the honeymoon period last 2 years, maybe 3. the corpse of the relationship lay around for another 2 or 3. Almost 10 years later I ran into her, which started an email exchange, after a few exchanges something set her off and she got right back into the berating the CD thing. (Obviously I did not bring it up) I simply never replied and let it drop.

[Vickie_CDTV]

What I find interesting is that she expected you to fully accept, embrace and participate in her kink... but would not do the same for yours.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Crossdressing is just not attractive for most straight women, and we might even question your mental health that you need to do it. Maybe you're in denial about your sexuality, or worse, maybe you have issues with your mother - something that springs fear in the hearts of women everywhere! Most GG's won't look much further than this.

Some of us come here and try to understand :)

[docrobbysherry]

What I find interesting is that she expected you to fully accept, embrace and participate in her kink... but would not do the same for yours.
Please remember, Vickie, there r quite a few here that do NOT dress for kinky reasons.

Altho I'll be the first to admit I do now? I started out thinking I was a TS and didn't get turned on by my image during my first year of dressing!

[LilSissyStevie]

It's a common mistake (delusion?) for CDs to think that if they hook up with a bisexual/kinky female that these women will somehow find CDing/effeminacy more acceptable or even a turn on. That wasn't my experience. My last GF before I met my wife was bisexual. She loved to watch gay (male) porn. She was probably more kinky than I am and certainly had more libido. But she didn't like effeminate men. She didn't like feminine women either. I knew better than to ever bring up the subject of crossdressing. It's not hypocrisy. You can't help what turns you on/off and neither can anyone else. Unfortunately our kinks/squicks are the last thing we tend to divulge to our partners and by then we're usually in too deep.

[Tina_gm]

NIMBY (not in my backyard) is what I see here. A lot of people think they are liberal minded because for others its ok. And at least they feel that. It can be hurtful though for those of us who are in one of those categories of outside acceptance but then be shunned internally.

[Charla McBee]

The short version of the type of attitude you encountered hon is: NIMBY - Not In My Back Yard. Lots of people support all sorts of things until it affects them personally.

Yep. I know a lot of people who are willing to be friends with and tolerate absolutely anyone. But when it comes to say who can date their daughter, they are suddenly extremely bigoted. It really boggles my mind but that attitude is very common among the general public. They won't judge you for your race, religion, sexual orientation or whatever until you bring it into their home. Then it suddenly becomes a problem.