interesting talk with wife

[jo_ann]

Ok, so my wife keeps pushing this "swining lifestyle" on me. She's met a few guys online, and I'm just going with the flow for the moment to see how things work out (I have to admit I'm curious about having relations with other women, perhaps even men since my wife is my first... meaning I've never dated anyone before her). So then she started asking me questions like

"so what's your fantasy? Would it turn you on to see me having sex with another guy?", I thought about it, "not really"

"what about me with another woman?", I quickly say "yes"

"What's the difference? I'm just curious?", and I'm like "well I guess I seeing another man just doesnt' turn me on".

"well do you like playing with yourself?", and I'm like "yeah". so she asks me "well what's the difference if it's with another guy?". and I really couldn't answer it, I felt like she was backing me into a corner, or trying to get me to admit to something. I admitted that I guess I'd have to experiment to see if I liked it, and she sorta got upset that I wouldn't open up, and I say that I have a fear of admitting things because it's taboo and society doesn't agree with stuff like this, and she assures me that she has just as many taboo's and that I should worry about it. At some point she gets me to admit that I sometimes do fantasize about being in bed with a man, but that I'd have to play the female role, and she's like "so you'd have to crossdress to be in bed with a man?", and I'm like "yeah, but maybe not at first".

So that's where I'm at with my relationship. I asked her "is swinging not cheating because it's not being dishonest and we're getting permission first?", and she agreed. It's so hard to accept a swinging lifestyle because it's against everything that's christian, but I'm also a big advocate that the bible is 2,000 years old and constantly contridicts itself (and points out how crossdressing is a sin, so I'm already comitting sin). Part of me is scared, but another part of me is sort of excited at the thought that I've basically been given permission to explore too. I do worry about disease, and part of me wonders why we're even married? Are we just a couple saving money by sharing living expenses and lower insurance? Are we just best friends living together? it's strange to be in this position.

[Gwen]

It isn't a sin to crossdress. The only place in the bible it says not to crossdress is the same place it says not to eat pork. Just thought you should know.

[uknowhoo]

Forgive me jo Ann for not being able to recall details of your domestic situation, but can we assume your wife is not aware of your dressing?

If not, it would seem from what she said that she'd be open to discussion of whatever taboos, including discussing your dressing..

As for the swinging thing, it seems like she's very interested. I think where lots of couples get stuck is the configuration - whether there would be two GGs and guy, or two guys and a GG (i suppose adding CD gurls expands the possibilities even further). My wife and I have talked about it before, though not really seriously about doing it. I think I could do it with her and another GG, though I don't think I could handle it with my wife and another guy. Such a prude I am LOL.

Tammi

EDIT: Oh, and welcome to the forum Gwen. Thanks for your first post. Y'want some bacon?

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Jo Ann

I really don't know what advice I can give you, this is kinda out of my parameters, so to speak. Different things for different people, nothing wrong with that, you're both consenting adults and such. The one thing I will say is that I once learned that sometimes the fantasy is better than the reality. Something to think about.

GypsyKaren

[jo_ann]

can we assume your wife is not aware of your dressing?
no, my wife is quite aware of my dressing. I told her a month after I met her, and she's always been cool with it. The only thing she doesn't like about it is that because of how I like to be femme, I tend to ALWAYS shave and she loves facial hair/body hair. What I meant by "trying to get me to admit to something and backing me into a corner" is that she always pushes me to talk more and admit how I feel, but it's not always easy, even to a SO that's pretty darn accepting.


sometimes the fantasy is better than the reality
I guess that's what I worry about the most. Suppose I actually engage in sexual relations with a man and discover it totally grosses me out. Not only might that guy get offended, but that totally ruins 90% of my fantasies from now on, but part of me just wants to know what it's like.

[Christina Nicole]

In a word: Research. You need to read up some on why people "swing." You need to also see why society has instituted marriage as an exclusive relationship. There are good, solid, human psycological reasons, as well as practical, moral and spiritual. You won't feel backed into a corner by her questions if you have done the homework before hand. They only ones go can be cornered are the unprepared.

As an aside, the Bible does not contradict itself. But it is thousands of years old. Different books have different authors that were written in different times. Plus the Old Testament was written around the Covenant that God had with his Chosen People. The New Testament is written establishing the New Covenant.

Both of those topics are far too involved to be discussed in any great depth here. Plus, I simply lack the time to post such information. Fortunately, well-respected people have written about both topics and their books are easily purchased.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[kathy gg]

HI,

First off go to amazon.com and check out a book called "The Ethical ****", it will actually give you a whole list of books that discuss open sexual relationships. Saw a show about the lady who wrote the book and her life as a polyamourus person. IF you really want your questions answered, you need to do reseach that will either confirm or assure you of what you are feeling.

Then go check out this gals website:

http://www.puckerup.com/main.htm

Tristen is a very well known sex educator and there is a particluar sexual experince that she does focuc on, but I know all through her site are Q&A's about things like this.

Here is another site that seems to focus on FAQ's
http://www.technomom.com/love/cheatingtopoly.shtml

And if you just go goolge "polyamorous" you will get quiet the hit list.

This was kinda interesting...http://www.schooloftantra.com/articles/Polyamory/PolyAdvisors/

Anyway, to clarify, I am not in a relatinship like this.
But I have seen and read peoples experiences on various shows and advice columns. I also have had a few conversations with people who are this way.

If you are asking yourself why you are even married then maybe exploring this new teritory will only be the demise of your relationship. It seems that people who are in that lifestyle have to be able to not let jealousy or other personal insecurities happen once they have viewed their partner getting pleasure from another person.

If you are that uncomfortable and hanging onto your bible {beliefs} that hard, you don't seem like a good canidate for these parimeters.

I personally think anyone who pressures another to do something they are not comfortable with is being a bit on the selfish side, gg's included. But you are not conviving me by what you wrote that this does not hold some appeal for you...you need to do some soul searching.

[Julie York]

You don't actually sound like your heart is in this.

[Tamara Croft]

Have you asked her why she wants to have sex with another guy? Because, I'm trying to get my head around this one and trying to figure out if maybe there's another reason. Is this something shes wanted to do for a while or a new thing? I mean, you sound like you don't want anything to do with this and sounds like she's forcing you into something you don't want to do.

So ask her 'why' she wants to do this and let us know ;)

[jo_ann]

Have you asked her why she wants to have sex with another guy?

She gives two reasons:
1. so we can explore people we haven't gotten a chance to (I married at 23, she married at 22), so it's sort of a "got married too early" thing.
2. spicing things up.. she says our sex life has gotten really boring, plus I don't engage as much as she would like or initiate enough. She thinks that experiencing sex with other people would only help strengthen our relationship, which it very well could, or it could turn things sour. I mean what if she likes it too much, and me being shy what if I never get the motivation to find someone for myself? I guess I'm a little scared of that situation because I am lazy when it comes to pursuing partners (probably why I settled in marriage so easily).

[Ms. Donna]

no, my wife is quite aware of my dressing. I told her a month after I met her, and she's always been cool with it. The only thing she doesn't like about it is that because of how I like to be femme, I tend to ALWAYS shave and she loves facial hair/body hair. What I meant by "trying to get me to admit to something and backing me into a corner" is that she always pushes me to talk more and admit how I feel, but it's not always easy, even to a SO that's pretty darn accepting.

OK, here's what I'm hearing in this: Your wife knows about and seems to be accepting of Jo Ann However she isn't really sexually attracted to Jo Ann To get what she wants, she has proposed a 'swinging' lifestyle. This will enable her to be sexual with 'men' she finds attractive. The problem with this is that she has good case of guilt regarding it and to make it 'OK', she wants your 'permission' to sleep with other men Your participation in this lifestyle will give her that permission. If you are 'swinging' as well, then it's OK for her to be doing this. However, while it sounds interesting, you do not really want to be a part of this.

While I don't know the history of your situation, my gut reaction is that this sounds bad - very bad.

As you surmised, you are being forced into a corner - plain and simple. She wants to go out and have sex with other men - and possible watch you have sex with other men - and is using your crossdressing as leverage against you. She will be accepting of your 'need' if you are accepting of her's and she is using some twisted rationalizations to make you do something which - by your own words - is contrary to your own system of morals.

Kathy has given you some really good advice: educate yourself and really consider what is being asked of you.

Making concessions and comming to an agreement with your wife is one thing - this is something altogether different.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Gwen]

Ms Donna,
Well spoken. I'm with you. Crossdressing is not free license for Crossdressers or their partners to abondon their morals.

[jo_ann]

However she isn't really sexually attracted to Jo Ann.. To get what she wants, she has proposed a 'swinging' lifestyle. This will enable her to be sexual with 'men' she finds attractive.

No she's not attracted to the femme me, but I really don't dress that often so that's not the issue. I think mostly she wants to date other men because:
a. I don't want to grow facial hair
b. she wants to experience other things (other races and what not)
c. Even though I'm good in bed, I do have a short one and I think she misses what a longer one feels like

I know this sounds cold, but she is asking me first.. unfortunately I seem to just go along with whatever, but in this case I sorta want to go along with it so I leave the door open so that when I'm ready I can explore too. I just wondered what your thoughts were, or if anyone else has had this "swinging" experience before.

[Deborah]

hmmm i can't think of anything nice to say about this....sorry.

Have a bad feeling about it for you though. :eek:

Is Illinois a no-fault state when it comes to divorce?

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

As others have said, best to proceed slowly. There are those who can make polyamorous relationship work. There's also those who experiment with it and it destroys the relationship.

It's important to keep in mind the differences between fantasies (things you're intrigued with but wouldn't want to actually do), desires (things you'd like to do, regardless of whether you've done them yet, and actual behavior.

The other factor is: you're attract to who you're attacted to. I.e. if you're not attracted to seeing your wife with another man, but OK with seeing her with another woman, there's not a logical reason for it. (Although one can certainly explore one's feelings about why that might be the case.)

It sounds like you're both having a bit of "seven year itch" (regardless of how long you're actually been together), which is being compounded by your mutual lack of experience before marriage.


I think mostly she wants to date other men because:
a. I don't want to grow facial hair
b. she wants to experience other things (other races and what not)
c. Even though I'm good in bed, I do have a short one and I think she misses what a longer one feels like


If you haven't done so, I'd ask her to make sure you're correct in these assumptions.

What concerns me is, that as others have said, it doesn't sound like your heart is in the whole swinging thing.

Most couples do have differing libidos, which is something that has to be worked out. And has Helen Boyd has written about in "My Husband Betty" there's definitely some CDs who are too passive for your partner's tastes. So you might also try being a little more "manly" as it were, both initiating more often and being more assertive. And the two of your might talk about other ways to spice your sex life -- perhaps acting out some of her fantasies without actually swinging.

[Ms. Donna]

No she's not attracted to the femme me, but I really don't dress that often so that's not the issue. I think mostly she wants to date other men because:
a. I don't want to grow facial hair
b. she wants to experience other things (other races and what not)
c. Even though I'm good in bed, I do have a short one and I think she misses what a longer one feels like

OK, some more of my armchair psychology:

Point a is as a constant reminder of Jo Ann - you need not be dressed for her to 'see' Jo Ann.

Points b and c are rationalizations. Hell, maybe I'd like to 'try other things', but I made a committment to my wife. It either means something or it doesn't. I can accept 'swinging' as a lifestyle if both partners are equally involved. She's pushing and you're aquiessing - I just don't see the equality here.


unfortunately I seem to just go along with whatever, but in this case I sorta want to go along with it so I leave the door open so that when I'm ready I can explore too.

More rationalization - you're talking yourself into this. You said yourself "I seem to just go along with whatever" - why it that? Why are you willing to compromise your own values and morals to this extent? Is what you are getting from this relationship really worth it?

I'm usually the last person to speak out against someone's struggle to find a balance with their wife, but this truly concerns me. I just see this going down a bad road with you getting hurt at the end.

My 'observations' are on the situation persented and not intended to be any kind of personal condemnation. If I am completely off base, than please accept my apologies.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[CharleneCD]

Jo-Ann, I am having enough trouble with this that I showed it to Bunny and we talked about it. We are both concerned about your marriage. For a GG to be pushing this so hard is not normal. It is our opinion that she is unhappy and is using the swinging as an excuse to find someone else. I hope we are wrong in this. Our advice is to try to find out what she finds lacking in your sex life, That is making her so pushy about swinging, and try to correct it just between the two of you. If there are problems in your sex life bringing in others is likely to do more harm.

Now if our opinion is wrong, and I hope it is, neither me or Bunny think swinging is wrong. It just has to be mutualy agreed upon by both parties. Also both need to be entirely comfortable with it. We have discussed the possibility of doing it ourselves. For us it has to be something we both do together. There will be no going off and doing something on our own. Also we must both be attracted to and comfortable with both members of the other couple. And lastly if either says no or stop, it does with no questions asked. Yes it is a high bar to set, but we want to make sure we dont end up hurting what we have.

Good luck in whatever happens.

[RachelB.]

Good Morning

If you take the verse in Deutronomeny at face value all the non crossdressing public is sinning. During the time this scripture was written the normal dress for men was flowing robes. The women wore shorter robes with leggings underneath. The intent of the scripture was not to deceive others by passing yourself off as female and luring others into sex with you by this means. This scripture is part of the Jewish law that Jesus later asks the Jews why they enforce it on the Gentiles but don't obey it themselves.

The Jewish law was given to the 12 tribes of Israel as a guide to live by until the coming of the Messiah. Much of the Jewish law is later contradicted in scripture (in the New Testament). Someone somewhere took this verse out of context and used it for their purpose. This is where the appearance of so many contradictions come into play. A single verse by itself may seem to mean one thing but when read in the text it was written in it becomes clearer. Also I beleive one must be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, then message of the Bible becomes clearer.

Sorry about the rant but people who use the scripture to justify their bigotry is my number one pet peeve. I hope I haven't offended anyone, this wasn't my intent.

[ginafaye]

first we dont do the swing thing but one thing is for sure if you do this every thing will change forever at home........no matter how it happens you will havefeelings hurt whats at least working for you guys now probably wont be enough any more i dont see any good that can come from going down this road .........good luck

[Tiffy]

I am not going to offer any advice here. But, my wife knows of my dressing and we are swingers and have been for almost 10 years. If I can give you any insight or advice just look me up on messenger or send me an e-mail. As far as I am concerned swinging is not something to be discussed here in the open. To many people who do not understand things and never will and that is fine. I would be glad to help you out the best I can.

Kisses, April Marie

aprilinlingerie on yahoo IM
aprilinlingerie@bellsouth.net

[Ariel_TV]

first we dont do the swing thing but one thing is for sure if you do this every thing will change forever at home......

How can you be so sure if you never tried it? Me and my gf did the "swinger thing" and it was quite a pleasurable experience . Everybody have theyre own way of doing sex , some are more aggressive and some are more passive. You can learn alot of fun thing and make interesting friendship. So many people cheat on theyre spouse these days , swinging is a way of exploring sexuality without doing it in the back of each others.

It not for everyone because you need a balanced couple to do it , and both person must be willing to do it. You should read about it and talk about it with your spouse much like we ask other to read about our crossdressings.

It funny how some of the reaction here toward swinging are the same reactions that we acuse other people of having toward our crossdressing. Having a open mind is not just about crossdressing ;)

[vicky V]

Hi Jo Ann,

Only my opinion, but it does seem to me that swinging would be a slippery slope, with a hard landing resulting in a melt down of your marital relationship.

love,

vicky v

[terza]

from what you posted... i think one phrase come to mind,

"POWER STRUGGLE"

in my opinion, a alot of scenarios are being presented
here to "win" a concession out of the other partner.
carefull, if it is a psychological play then the scenario
may very likely be only a front for something else.

are you both VERY religious?
cause bible and brimmystone pairing with swinging is a
bit of an odd couple.

[pattied]

HMMM...

I have heard that in some relationships, swinging is accepted and fine, but it gives me pause personally. Call me a prude if you will, but with all the various STDs out there, I'd rather stay monogamous.

just my $0.02... :)

[jo_ann]

I guess my mindset is that since I dont' deliver s*x often enough, it's not fair for her to not enjoy her peaking (sucks that men and women peak at such drastic different times in their lives), and I feel if I don't grant her permission, she may cheat anyway (but not that I'm condoning swinging for that reason). I guess I just dont' care if it's just sex. I don't see sex and love as the same thing, and I feel we have such a strong relationship that there's no reason for us to split up. I'm a pretty independent person, so I guess it just doesn't bother me. As far as religion goes, I'm quite split on the matter. I was brought up very christian (church every sunday, behave, etc.), went to CCD every saturday and got confirmed in 8th grade... but then as I grew up living at home, I went to church less and less, and getting married as lutheran it just got worse. I can't remember the last time I went to church. Now it's not that I stopped believing, I still pray and thank god for the gifts I recieve, I guess I just don't believe in tything and giving money to some made-up church system. The church has more gold than any other group in the entire world, and they're constantly putting down the sea scrolls because they basically say that god never intended for people to give their money away. You look at all the pedafiles in the catholic church and you have to wonder "what do they know that the rest of us don't? If pedaphelia is so bad, wouldn't their beliefs outway their sexual urges?". So it's really hard to have an opinion at this point on the sanctity of marriage. I've always kept an open mind about things.. I never judge my wife on stereotypes (wife, go do the dishes or cook me dinner), so swinging isn't really any different.

[paulaN]

wish my SO would say she wants to swing. I would be ready in a heart beat. I never had sex I didn't like.

[miss_sarah]

Like some of the others, my wife and I have no interest in lifestyle either. However, we do work in the adult entertainment business (she used to have her own website which I admin'ed) and I worked with a guy who owns an amateur porn network. That guy, and most of the people he ran with were all swingers.

The first thing I noticed is this:
1) It takes a VERY MATURE, TRUSTING and HONEST relationship to be able to pull off lifestyle.
2) Of the people I met who were swingers, 99% of them didn't have #1

Not condoning it or shunning it, I'm just saying it's something that takes a lot of maturity and trust in the marriage to be successful. Personally, i'm a jealous *******. Some guy snuck a kiss with my now-wife when we were just seriously dating and I flew off the handle about it. We couldn't handle swinging.

It's like drunk driving too - I wouldn't be so much concerned with yourselves as I would with the other swingers you may come in contact with. House Parties and Swing Parties are HUGE in lifestyle, and most people end up banging a good number of people before the night is over -- some of them they don't even really know. Drug use was pretty rampant in the circles the guy I used to work with ran in, which I'm totally against (thank god we didn't move closer to them like he wanted us to!!!!) and then there's the whole STD wildfire to add to the mix. People don't get tested the day before a swing party and carry their test results around with 'em ya know.

Granted, a good number of people in lifestyle will only hook up with people they already know well (although even my closest friends don't know all of my secrets, and if I had an STD, I doubt I'd be up for telling them about it) - vs hooking up with strange at parties.

Personally, I'd get terrified just giving it any serious thought. I've done enough research and met enough people in lifestyle to know that it isn't for us. Doesn't mean it's wrong for everyone, but it's worth serious discussion with your SO before anything happens!

:HUGS:

[Falcor]

Me thinks...I'm sorry Jo,your wife wants,and probably will have a sexual romp,with or without your consent.
I'm also sorry to be so blunt,but to patronise you in any way,is to do you a disservice..you know something Jo?If we were good mates,I'd tell you to give religion the flick,and find a future in which you are truely happy.
Allthe best ..fal.

[DonnaT]

Hi Jo-Ann.

Besides the STD's, there are a few other things that can go wrong when entering into a swinging lifestyle. Not the least of which is the wife falls in love with her lover, and it becomes more than just sex. One way to avoid that, but not a sure thing, is that you swing with another married couple. If your wife does not agree to this, then she may just be looking to satisfy her yearnings, or she may already have someone in mind who she wants to have sex with.

There are other things that can happen as well. Especially if you find yourself being submissive to your wife. Here's a couple of web sites/forums you might want to read over and join in on to see if it's for you or not.

http://adultcommunitiesonline.com/forums/hotwives/
http://adultcommunitiesonline.com/forums/cuckold/

[ReginaK]

From what i've seen and heard, swinging only works in relationships that are already sexually healthy. If you and your wife are having issues sexually, swinging will make them worse. Jealousy comes into play real quick and before you know it, both of you are swinging all the time and never having sex with eachother. Thus the rest of relationship crumbles from there.

I can't tell you not to do, but I can tell you to be very careful.

[Cathy Anderson]

> It's so hard to accept a swinging lifestyle because it's against everything that's
> Christian,

Since this is a support group, you should expect honest input from people here, so here is mine.

I am by no means a fundamentalist. But I cannot see any reading of the New Testament that would justify "swinging" for married persons.

One might justify crosssdressing , up to a point anyway, by considering how it it seems related to inborn urges, and also seems to have some amount of beneficial effect in terms of a man "getting in touch with his female side." But what offsetting advantage is there with swinging? Does your wife's interest in seeing you with another man have any possible positive basis? It's hard to see one of any kind. Rather, it might relate to some kind of perverse interest on her part—perhaps relating to some emotional problem in her childhood. In any case, I think it is fair to say that any interest she has in your sexual experimentation is projection on her part—an attempt to somehow address vicariously her own psychological needs and wants through your behavior.

It seems fairly natural for a man to have fantasies and some level of interest in experimenting with sex with guys. But the nice thing about fantasy, perhaps the very reason we evolved the ability to fantasize, is that it meets unconscious urges without causing the real problems associated with acting them out in reality.

> but I'm also a big advocate that the bible is 2,000 years old and

We flatter ourselves to think modern man is a lot different than people 2000 years ago, but that isn't so. People were very sophisticated then. For example, little, if anything, written in modern times approaches the works of Plato for intellectual sophistication.

> constantly contradicts itself

Well, if one wants to find contradictions with the Bible one will find them. It's like meeting a person--if you want to find grounds to criticize them, you will. Most of these 'contradictions' go away if one believes that many parts of the Bible are not necessarily intended to be taken in the most literal, word-for-word sense.

> and points out how crossdressing is a sin,

Christians are not bound by the Mosaic law. Nothing in the New Testament condemns crossdressing.

> basically been given permission to explore too.

Beware the slippery slope. Exploring is one thing--if that means letting oneself be conscious of repressed urges. But any form of exploration must be accompanied by restraint. The argument, "well, I'm sinning anyway--I might as well go all the way" is a very bad fallacy.

For something like this one always has the recourse of prayer.

[Tiffy]

Swinging and life in general do not need to be justified. I have been living it for over ten years. And a CD for over 20. I would say if you want to do it then do it. If you have to think about it this long I think you are outta luck. This is because even if you decide you want to try it I do not think you will be able to control your feelings. It takes years of work to get it right. If you do and do not run your relationship in the ground well then you have something. A much stronger realtionship then most will ever know.


Any way though. I can not help but think that if she is the one pushing this then there maybe other motives on her part and I think these need to be addressed before you start this.

It is not for the weak of mind or body. It will test you in ways at first you never thought possible.

Kisses, April Marie

[susan kay]

She gives two reasons:
1. so we can explore people we haven't gotten a chance to (I married at 23, she married at 22), so it's sort of a "got married too early" thing.
2. spicing things up.. she says our sex life has gotten really boring, plus I don't engage as much as she would like or initiate enough. She thinks that experiencing sex with other people would only help strengthen our relationship, which it very well could, or it could turn things sour. I mean what if she likes it too much, and me being shy what if I never get the motivation to find someone for myself? I guess I'm a little scared of that situation because I am lazy when it comes to pursuing partners (probably why I settled in marriage so easily). You seem really troubled and are seeking help and this is diffinently the place to get it the one sister sugested that You go check out some matterial on this and others have offered their oppions. You have to decide is this what i really want and if there is any love for your wife is it worth loseing her .I would diffinently want to check out the books that our sister mention. Good luck hugs & kiss's

[JoAnnDallas]

Jo-Ann.... This sounds like my first marriage. One day she wanted us to join a swing group. I thought it over and decided to give it a try. I soon found that I was not cut out for this lifestyle. The first time was not hard, but by the third time in the same night, it got to real tough. My first wife then got mad because I did not want to do it anymore and she really got into it. Two months later she asked for a divorice. Oh,yes, she knew about my fem side, but was put off by it. Guess that was another reason for the divorice.

So what I am saying is be very careful what you decide. Make sure this is what you and your wife really want to do. It is not for everyone and it does put a lot of pressure on the male. Remember it is easier for the female to perform than for a man.