Is there such a thing as "fullgender" ?

[Eselka]

Hi everyone, for my first thread I wanted to share some of my reflexions with you ; I shall try to be as clear as possible but I can't guarantee anything :angel:

Here I go : there's quite a bunch of terms to describe gender variant identities, covering many parts of the spectrum. The one that gave its name to this forum clearly implies the idea of crossing a border ; after all we must be called "crossdressers" for some reason right ?

And yet I was thinking that a crossdresser might actually not be crossing anything but just fully expressing the possiblities lying within him. I have to admit I'm heavily influenced by eastern philosophies in which there is no straight duality between black and white, day and night, or for that matter man and woman (the most famous example of this being the taijitu or ying-yang symbol).

In that perspective, every man as a part of feminity within him and all the usual female traits (kindness, empathy, etc) are masculine as well ; they're all part of the broader human nature.
I'm well aware that social norms are gendered and dual, but these norms are far from being universal. Depending on the time and the place, it can be normal for a man to have long hair or wear makeup.

So yeah right here right now it's about crossing boundaries, that's certain. But maybe in the end it's just expressing one's full potential as human being and thus being "fullgendered".


That's at least how I feel, but I may very well be making a fuss for nothing and I certainly can't talk for all of you so I'd love to hear your opinion ! Do you consider than putting on a dress and a wig is going to the other side or not ?

Hugs,

Eselka :)

[Robyne Rocks]

You're kinda describing my basic view of gender roles. We're all human, and our genitals shouldn't define who we are. We should be able to embody both genders, or whatever gender we choose. We should be able to love who and how we want. We should be able to dress how we want, and wear what makes each of us feel beautiful. I think gender stereotypes are silly, especially because they are constantly changing.

That said, we do have our culturally-imposed ideas of what defines feminine or masculine styles. Fudging those lines can be a really fun thing, and there's nothing wrong with playing with it & deciding what feels good, attractive, or sexy to you. It's all ridiculous, so why not be whoever you wanna be? :)

[Katey888]

A cool first thread Eselka... :cool:

We've had many before that have discussed categories of gender, sexuality or both - and we haven't had a good spit and sawdust, saloon bar brawl on labels for a while, so this should just be warming up for Friday night... :)

You make some good points and observations: about how everyone has some of this mix, however small - and then about how society abhors greys - you must be one or the other, right...? Male or female; citizen or foreigner; in-crowd or nerd... The same society would therefore understand the term 'crossdresser'.. but you're right about that space in-between... If we're really in that 'mix' of masculine and feminine, we're not really crossing are we? We're more... Interstitial Dressers? That's a bit of a mouthful... We don't cross we stop in the middle.. Hmmm...

Fullgendered sounds too much of everything for me - I get what you mean, but it just seems too full-on whereas I think most of us either go all-out femme, or we flip-flop... (For those of you who remember 80s electronics..) Maybe we're Astabledressers...?

Genderfluid seems a better phrase... I think that covers the fluidity of doing it or not doing it and how that feeling can vary between folk and be extremely fluid... Just putting on the outer appearance isn't going to the other side... It's what's happening underneath that determines that, for me... and I like the idea of fulfilling potential... that sounds very positive and worthwhile! :cheer:

Nice start, Eselka - there'll be some great discussions around this... :D

Katey x

[WhisperTV]

A very interesting question, Eselka. I think I feel similar to what you do.

My feminine side has always been a part of me. But unlike those with gender dysphoria, there has never been a battle between my masculine and feminine sides. I like both and I've always liked both. More importantly, I need both to define "me". I never saw a dicotomy between, say, being the bread winner and changing my daughgters diapers.

It's always been important to me to keep my feminine side active. "Use it or lose it", as they say. I think CDing is one way for me to engage that part of myself.

Edit
I can see Katey's point regarding the term "genderfluid". But genderfluid is switching back and forth between male and female. What I'm talking about is being both at the same time. So Eselka's "fullgender" idea fits me better.

That said, I don't want to get into a big argument over terms.

[Kate Simmons]

Pretty much a "full gender" person would be someone in touch with all their feelings and actually be a "full spectrum" person.:)

[Eselka]

Thanks for your comments, glad to see I'm not the only who likes to tweak labels in every possible way :D And of course there are several ways to describe and call one feeling, it would be hard to claim that one is better than another. Guess it's up to everyone to pick the one you like ;)

Good point about gender fluidity Katey, I actually think that the two ideas complete each other beautifully : gender identities would be a vast circle of possiblities (here's the "full") and some individuals move freely within this circle like water (that's the "fluid").

There's a famous quote by the philosopher Pascal (I think ?) that I love and which would describe my feelings perfectly : "The world is an infinite sphere, the center of which is everywhere, but its circumference nowhere". Replace "world" by "gender" and it works like a charm :)

[WhisperTV]

Good point about gender fluidity Katey, I actually think that the two ideas complete each other beautifully : gender identities would be a vast circle of possiblities (here's the "full") and some individuals move freely within this circle like water (that's the "fluid").
If that's what you mean, then I would agree with Katey and say, yes, that's genderfluid.

For me, it's more like being all the points (or at least a lot of them) at the same time.

[ArleneRaquel]

I lve 24/7 as a woman, but I still have my male parts, could that be considered 'fullgendered ? ". I know that I love the way that I live.

[Renee Elise]

Fascinating idea...similarly, I've thought of my en homme and en femme modes of expression as a yin and yang of my essence...like two sides of a coin. One is heads, the other tails, but still the same coin. Except my coin is handsome / beautiful ;).

Fluidity makes more sense if you think of expression as a spectrum, going from one end (masculine) to the other (feminine), while others prefer to be androgynous, blending both and ultimately landing somewhere in the middle.

[devida]

Good topic Eselka and one close to y heart.

I do think that gender, by which I mean the identity that you associate with yourself, is very broad, and that we have only just begun to find the words to describe the places on the gender spectrum (which may be as large as the number of human beings) in which each us fit. If you feel that fullgendered fits for you, go for it. We own the words we use to describe ourselves.

I am happy with non binary, which describes right now someone like me who does not want to be male or female but is happy with either polarity from time to time but happiest when not defining myself as either male nor female at all.

Personally I am trying not to see male and female as different sides but rather as different facets of the jewel that is a human being. Depending on how one looks or perhaps someone else looks at you different facets might present. One person might see me as a straight male, another as a gay male, another as a very femme male, and perhaps another wondering if I was male or female. Those are all valid views of me because I actually don't get to determine how other people see me. I am fine with accepting the diversity of opinion. I see myself as between the polarities of male and female. I actually think, personally, that there really isn't any such thing as gender but I will go along with it because that seems to be so important for so many people. I think there is only identity and if we weren't so crazed by the binary we would just present as whoever we were, which I think would make a far more interesting world.

But I am weird. Maybe, given your topic, you are too!

[WhisperTV]

hile others prefer to be androgynous, blending both and ultimately landing somewhere in the middle.

Hmmm... If the two sides don't cancel each other, is that still androgynous?

I don't really know.

[Renee Elise]

Hmmm... If the two sides don't cancel each other, is that still androgynous?

I don't really know.

Hmmm Whisper, now this is really getting interesting ;). Well, first the two sides can't cancel each other because the person while embodying traits from both ends of the spectrum at the same time, is still very real (don't think that's what you meant but I couldn't resist).

Personally, i don't view it like an absolute binary sort of polarity all one or the other, but rather like the spectrum of colors. One could choose to be near one end or the other, or blending traits from both ends. And the real beauty is that outer expression via clothes, makeup or hair is just one facet; you also have personality traits, thoughts and feelings to accompany it.

[WhisperTV]

you also have personality traits, thoughts and feelings to accompany it.
Yes, that's what I was referring to, the psychological part. I consider both the male and female parts always active.

I just never considered that as androgynous. Androgyny to me has always meant a lack of sexual characteristics. But maybe that's not the way to look at it?

[Renee Elise]

Yes, that's what I was referring to, the psychological part. I consider both the male and female parts always active.

I just never considered that as androgynous. Androgyny to me has always meant a lack of sexual characteristics. But maybe that's not the way to look at it?

Ah, now I see what you're getting at. One could think of it that way. My view of androgyny has always been not clearly masculine, not clearly feminine. There would be some degree of sexual characteristics but not exclusively male or female.

[WhisperTV]

Hmmmm... still not sure. It's a bit like Schrödinger's live cat/dead cat. Both possibilities are active, but when you open that door, it's going to be one or the other.

I don't know, I've never been one for label's. Something for me to think about though.

[mechamoose]

Excellent topic!

I think there are 'fullgendered' people, but I think there are a lot of folks somewhere just shy of that who migrate to one side or the other in order to feel comfortable or to 'belong'.

That has a tangental relationship to orientation in that "mm"s and "gg"s are *expected* to adhere to an orientation... but orientation isn't really the discussion, is it?

People like to belong, and will sacrifice some elements of themselves to do so.


There's safety in numbers
When you learn to divide
How can we be in
If there is no outside?

Peter Gabriel - "Not One of Us"

Nobody *wants* to be the outside person. I think a lot of folks are, but hide it to fit in.

- MM

[Jaclyn]

I love this topic Eselka
I believe I'm somewhere in the middle, closer too the female side. This is where I'd stay all the time if I could. I come back to the male side cause this is where society wants me. I don't want to fully transition but I would like to be on HRT treatments. I feel hormones would help me be happy and who I need to be.

Thanks Eselka your views really helped me.

P.S. I think you're beautiful.

Jackie

[mechamoose]

Cinderella is proof that a pair of shoes can change a your life.

Dorothy would agree!!!

Love the sig!

<3

- MM

[Beverley Sims]

Eselka,
A new word embracing a "unique" condition?

[Teresa]

Eselka,
I know it's been said before but crossdressing translates from the Latin transvestite - trans = to cross, vestite= dress/garb.
So we cross over clothes, no mention in the literal translation of gender , sex or boundary limits !
How we choose to use the clothes to literally clothe our imagination is totally up to the individual, there are no rules only the boundaries we allow society to impose on us.
As we are conceived female and retain certain traits after birth most men will have feminine traits but some will go all out to bury them only to have them emerge later in life. This is why we have late forming Cders, something I hadn't thought about until I joined the forum and read other member's stories.
As far as trying to give a level of gender orientation, I think we all swing on a fairly regular basis, some days we want it all, and the next we have a great day being the good father or husband having quality time with the kids or grandchildren.
We are all going to have different slant on Cding because no two lives are the same !
I have learned to take from the forum the things that help me , read what others are choosing to do and decide if that's what I want.
It's my way of dealing with the "Pink Fog".

[CrossJess]

We're all human, and our genitals shouldn't define who we are. We should be able to embody both genders, or whatever gender we choose. We should be able to love who and how we want. We should be able to dress how we want, and wear what makes each of us feel beautiful.

If everyone thought like you the world would be a much MUCH better place!...we can only hope! :)

[Robyne Rocks]

Things are sure getting better in the world! Slowly, but surely, it's coming around!

[sometimes_miss]

Much of our behavior, either consciously or subconsciously, is determined by the desire to have sex, to have offspring. So there should be little surprise that for men, traditionally masculine behaviors that make us attractive to women are going to be the most often displayed, and feminine ones suppressed in order to achieve that goal.

[Marcelle]

Hi Eselka,

Great first post. I like the underlying concept that we are who we are regardless of how we present. When I am "en femme" my base personality does not change only the external presentation. Have I crossed genders? By societal definition "women wear dresses not men" then yes but in my mind "no" . . . there is only "me" regardless of if I am in a dress or a suit. So while I prefer not to label myself (I know . . . Isha promised not to talk labels . . . still making soup en femme :battingeyelashes:) I will say that I tend be more "fluid" in my presentation (sometimes girl, sometimes boy).

Hugs

Isha

[Eselka]

Hi everyone, thanks for all your answers, it's great to see such a diversity in your comments :)

Laslty I was chatting with some friends about that label issue (well it was more regarding sexual orientation, but the conclusions we reached can actually be applied to gender identity I believe) and one of them came up with a remark I found pretty interesting, so I thought I'd share it with you.

Basically he said that using a two-ended linear spectrum to measure gender wasn't entirely appropriate, since it implies that going further away on the male end of the spectrum decreases your female self-identification by the same proportion since it's an unidimensional variation.
So he suggested an system based on a two-dimension graph (which is originally an improvement of the Kinsey scale), one axis being female identification and the other being male. With this, virtually any combination is possible : 100 male 0 female (meaning you perceive yourself as having all of the standard male-associated traits and behaviour and none of the female ones),50/50, 60/80, 90/100, etc.

(I'm giving numbers to illustrate, but of course it's more a qualitative appreciation and 20 is by no mean "inferior" to 50 or whatever, think of it more as coordinates to locate the points)

Instead of a linear spectrum, we thus get a whole cloud of possibilities... I found it pretty clever as it has more diversity in what it means to feel male or female
and it allows to be both at the same time without being limited at the 50/50 "neutral" stance.

Of course this is just some fancy mind game (which I admit to like :D ), the true answer - if there is one - lies within each of us and is different for each of us.

Hugs,

Eselka :)

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Eselka, I like to think that it is having the best of both worlds.

[WhisperTV]

Instead of a linear spectrum, we thus get a whole cloud of possibilities... I found it pretty clever as it has more diversity in what it means to feel male or female
and it allows to be both at the same time without being limited at the 50/50 "neutral" stance.

*sigh*
Cute, young, speaks French, and has a brain.

I need a drink. :drink:

Edit
Yes, that's it exactly Eselka. You and your friend got it right.