Would you prefer to be accepted by society as an individual or as a woman?

[Kate T]

I am curious and my question is stimulated in part by threads about worrying about ever passing, etc. But as a transexual (sorry, I am really probably asking this question specifically of those who identify as TS) is it more important to you that society accepts you as a woman or would you prefer that society accepts you as an individual irrespective of your gender?

If you wish society to accept you as you truly are (i.e. a woman) then at what point do you say that that is the case? Reine has already mentioned and Kathryn has provided images of women who do demonstrate what are regarded as typically male physical characteristics and yet they are accepted by society as women. How much of what society defines as being a woman influences your own definition of being a woman?

[jaleecd]

I say a woman is who she says she is. no more, ,no less. and who has the right to question how or what she feels. I was taught that feeling are. neither right nor wrong, just feelings.

[Aprilrain]

If I'm not accepted as a woman but I don't know I'm not accepted as a woman because people are polite and respectful then by default would I not have been accepted as an individual even if not as a woman?

If I'm accepted as a woman and know I'm accepted as a woman then I'm automatically accepted as myself (an individual)

If I'm not accepted as a woman and know I'm not accepted as a woman but otherwise unmolested and treated with basic courtesy and respect then I've been accepted as an individual.

If I'm not accepted as a woman and that causes a person or group of people to reject me with intent to do harm to me Then they have also rejected me as an individual and I run like hell!

Ok I think I get it, scenarios 1-3 all involve acceptance of one kind or another, I can live with that. But obviously scenario 2 is preferable to all others and scenario 4 is least preferable.

My definition of what me as a female is, is influenced strictly by my own innate identity. I do not act like a female, I act like myself which is female. Transition was the process of fixing my body not the process of becoming a woman. Charles Kane "became" a woman and look how that turned out!

[becky77]

Yeah, that stuff April said :)

As an individual and seeing as I indentify as a woman then i'm being accepted as a woman yes?
And if society is treating people as individuals then everyone is happy? Well probably not, as we would find something else to obsess over lol.

[Donna Joanne]

To be accepted as a female is my ultimate goal. I don't want to stand out for my gender, but instead for my personality and nature. To be always "ma'am'd" , never be mistaken for a male, and blending in with all the other women is what I strive for. Even in jeans and a t shirt.

[Rogina B]

Tolerance,acceptance,and inclusion...Tolerance for being a human. Acceptance for being the human form in front of them. And inclusion of this human form into their life via friendship....Accepting us for how we choose to be to the world.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

anyway..to the OP.. I don't parse out what I want in that way.. Gender is an organizing factor in life..maybe the primary one...it colors everything...
as a transsexual, I am a woman...if I am not accepted as a woman, then they are not accepting me ...

acceptance is a broad term.. many people including transsexuals quibble over this... for example...the broad shouldered male looking genetic woman may be taken for a man, but she is accepted as an individual and a woman...

the thing about transitioning as a transsexual is that its something you "just know"...your brain is female...there is nothing you can do to change who you are...
so you make changes in your life and depending on your genetic luck and your skill and determination, you will taken for a woman or not..
but being taken for a woman is just that...the mall clerk may or may not notice...but your lover surely will...your boss surely will...

we can't control what people actually think of us... we can only do our best to live our lives and prove to folks that we are real and we deserve to be embraced as women (mtf)...

[Donna Joanne]

Well stated Kaitlyn Michele. No insult intended in the "jeans and t shirt" remark, just know most women when in a hurry just throw on a "pair of jeans and a t shirt". Transition has as much or more to do with presentation and personality as it does physical appearance and clothing. If you think, act, talk and react to people as a female, you will be perceived as a female. I have seen some of my sisters try and be "too feminine" and in turn stand out for all the wrong reasons. The farther I get into my transition, the easier I find it to 'act naturally' as a female. But we have to remember one thing, it's like you are an awkward preteen girl when you transition. You didn't complete your first puberty in a few days, weeks or months. The second one may take even longer, because you have to "unlearn" most of what you learned in the first one and relearn in the second. Be brave, be confident, and be patient!

[I Am Paula]

I am still trying to figure out- Does the public perceive me as a woman, or do they see a lost soul of questionable gender?

On the 'woman' side- Before I got all new matching ID, the bank would often look at my client card, and tell me this wasn't my card, or my husband's card, or could I provide more ID. I got a new dentist, and after being in the chair twenty minutes, I mentioned my status and got an OMG from her, and her assistant. My new Doctor, even with the records from my endo in front of her, asked if I'd had a hysterectomy!

On the 'They're just being polite' side- I'm six feet tall, 200 lbs. Not unusual, but still, I stand out. I stopped wearing forms when the estrogen kicked in. My B cups look small on my frame. Hips, and ass? Still waiting. Two years hair growth, and miraculous results from laser have been pluses. I'm still unhappy about my body, it's a work in progress.

Bottom line- I live in a wonderful place, very accepting and friendly. A few very close to me witnessed my transition, but most have never known me as anything but the woman I try my best to present as. Everyone has been wonderful, and I only ever get the respect, and courtesy afforded a GG. I don't see any long looks from people, or hear the behind my back comments, so I take everything at face value. I have assimilated, and been accepted. Period.

Does my being accepted come from being seen as a woman, or just an individual? I don't know. Honestly. But I will take it, and be proud, and very, very, content.

[Kaz]

So back to the OP... I want to be accepted as an individual.. who I am.. this is essentially a human right and something we should be campaigning for. I am not a woman... my genes label me as male... Genetic males who claim to be women are deluding themselves... They are men wanting to present as women.. I know because I am in that zone. I love being Kaz... but no matter how much I convince myself that I am a woman... Biology and nature beats me... it is in the DNA...

I so wish that we could really get to grips with the issues and make change happen...

Kaz xoxoxoxoxo

[DeeDee1974]

The people that matter most accept me as a woman. I live within a large LGBT community in a large city. I feel comfortable within the community I choose to live. Occasionally I do encounter ignorance. But by in large I have isolated myself to live within the path of least resistance. I know not everyone lives where they can do this.

For the past couple of months I have been spending most of my weekends in the suburbs with my ex-wife. And while I have not had any direct negative experiences when we go out, sometimes I feel like all eyes are on me. My ex-wife insists it's in my head.

[arbon]

I try not to be to concerned with how well I am passing or not, or how people perceive me anymore. The more I put into those expectations the more disappointment! I can't control how others see me, and even when I am out of town where people don't know me it seems there is always someone that will read me as trans, which does not really bother me anymore, not the way it used to.

There are still some people who feel it is there right and duty to misgender me and that still bugs me a lot though. Doing that on purpose is just mean.

What I would prefer? I don't know, just trying to be myself and to be okay with that.

[PaulaAnn]

Accept me for who I am....."warts and all"(apologies to Oliver Cromwell).I AM Paula;I may not be the perfect image of a female,but so what?I'm very content in my manner of dress and deportment.I'm confident and at peace within....I don't need society's approval to be myself.
PaulaAnn

[Angela Campbell]

Whether or not someone accepts me or not is their problem not mine.

[KellyJameson]

Being a woman puts your individuality at risk because you are more likely to be seen as property that belongs to someone or something else.

Your breasts and your face for example often "feel like public property" because they are constantly being "evaluated"

It is always a fight for identity for transsexuals, first to be seen "as a woman" and than as an "individual who is a woman"

There is great pressure on women because you are constantly being defined by someone else " as what you should be"

I do not have a preference because I absolutely need both for good mental health.

[Dawn cd]

I suggest that the fundamental acceptance is as a human being. As many African-Americans can testify, being accepted as Black is no guarantee that you will be accorded human dignity. Once that dignity is recognized, being black or white is a minor issue. So why should being a woman or man be more important than being human?

[Kathryn Martin]

If you wish society to accept you as you truly are (i.e. a woman) then at what point do you say that that is the case?........... How much of what society defines as being a woman influences your own definition of being a woman?

This is a brilliant thread and these are brilliant questions you ask Adina.

When people are asked to introduce themselves, do they say: "I am [name] and I am a woman with female birth history?" Do they even say I am an individual? Do we introduce ourselves as "human being"?

Does biological existentialism define who we are as sexed persons? Does biological determinism dictate that intersexed persons are not sexed because they are ambiguous? What does have sex to do with who we are except to the extent that chromosomal sex determines what social construct you fit into in a gendered world and therefore impacts your experience of self?

How do we recognize a woman as such? And how much of what goes on in the instant of recognition is social construct and how much is real, and why?

Is passing really what we want to do or is integration really what we seek? to be witnessed as self?

[Michelle789]

I am not a woman... my genes label me as male... Genetic males who claim to be women are deluding themselves... They are men wanting to present as women.. I know because I am in that zone. I love being Kaz... but no matter how much I convince myself that I am a woman... Biology and nature beats me... it is in the DNA...

Uh, excuse me, Kaz? What about women born with Androgen Insensitivity Disorder, they are XY genetically and they are women. Like transwomen, they have the XY gene and cannot reproduce.

Yes, we are women. We may be genetically male, but we are women. Our gender identity is female, and we are socially integrating into society as women.

Do I want to be accepted as a woman? Yes.

Can I achieve it? God be willing, yes.

Will there be haters? Sure, there are people who will not accept us as women or as anything.

Will there be haters within the trans community? Yes, I have encountered a few.

Being a woman is very much a social thing. Being a woman is about a vibe we send off. We send off vibes that we're female because we believe ourselves to be one. We send off vibes that were are male, because we were raised as one and believe that we can never be truly female. Therefore, we clock ourselves first. The trans community clocks us second. People who knew us as men clock us third. Everyone else clocks us last.

Oh, and we clock ourselves largely because of the people who knew us as men who continue to misgender us. I bet that has A LOT to do with us not passing, because we have people constantly reminding us of our male past, and rubbing it in our faces. It's the law of attraction in action.

Most of our problems really do come from our fathers, who are the number one source of perpetuating their negative programming. Programming that can lead to us clocking ourselves, and facing just about any other problem in life, because daddy keeps reminding us that it's going to happen. Why do we lose jobs? Ah, because daddy keeps telling us that companies are in a hurry to fire people, and that losing jobs is inevitable. The news tells us this too, but we can run away from the news. We can't run away from daddy. And yes, the same principle applies to how we perceive ourselves with respect to gender, and how people perceive our gender.

[gonegirl]

Genetic males who claim to be women are deluding themselves... They are men wanting to present as women.. I know because I am in that zone. I love being Kaz... but no matter how much I convince myself that I am a woman... Biology and nature beats me... it is in the DNA...


You may speak your mind of course, but I hope you understand that you are insulting every transexual woman in this TS Forum who reads your words. Thank you for letting us know how you feel about us.

[Aprilrain]

So back to the OP.... it is in the DNA...

Oh, so you've had your DNA tested and you know for sure what it is? I tend to doubt it.

[Kathryn Martin]

Kaz, I want to say: I am not a boy my mother had me tested.

Your comment is pure biological determinism. Welcome to the world of radical lesbian feminism and trans exclusionary radical feminists who hold the same view.

[Frances]

I am not sure what you mean by DNA, Kaz. Are you refering to your chromosomes? Did you have your karyotype tested? I personally do not know if my karyotype is xx, xy, xxy, etc. I know I had male genitals, but there are xx people with male genitals. I know I was a woman, and eventually transitioned based on that. So... what are you, Kaz?

[Farrah]

For me, its acceptance. I know a may not be society's image of female, but if an presenting as such just accept me. I've seen people ridiculed, pointed at, and photographed for their presentation. Acceptance is all I'm seeking.

[Nigella]

Enough already, anymore posts regarding one member's comment will be deleted, This had gone on enough and is taking the thread off topic. Take it to PM

[PaulaQ]

After this past week of protecting one of my trans friends from people in her apartment complex that wanted to do bodily harm to her, and finally moving her out of there yesterday, I think I'd settle for society simply viewing us as human beings. Yeah - that seems like a good place to start to me. Because too many simply don't see us as human at all.

[MichelleHart]

For me, the answer would most definitely be an individual who is a human being that has feelings, emotions, hopes, dreams and fears just like everyone else.

[ArleneRaquel]

I would prefer to be seen by society as a woman, because I live as a lady 24/7.

[JenniferZ2009]

I would prefer to be seen as just one of millions of random women you might pass on the street. I just want to be...