Trans Acceptance 101: Cis-person asks "are you a girl or a guy?"

[Michelle789]

Yesterday, I went to Trans Pride L.A. and had a blast. I bumped into a cis-lesbian, let's call her K, that sometimes goes to MCC. She starts telling me that she wants a girlfriend, but she doesn't know if all the girls here are "really guys." I told her that that is an insult to transgender women. We're all girls, who happen to have been born into the wrong body. She says that she was going to go up to one of the girls and ask her "are you a girl or a guy?" I told K once again that that is offensive and that you should never ask a transgender person about their genitals or tell them that they're really the opposite gender of the one they identify as.

K then proceeds to tell me that when she goes on dates with women, that she asks them "are you a girl or a guy?" I told her once more that most transgender people would be offended if you ask them that. She told me she does it all the time and that most transwomen don't care if you ask them that question.

I then bumped into Tina and another transwoman and asked them how they would feel if they were asked "are you a girl or a guy?" All three of us started explaining to K that gender is what's in the head and not the genitals. K seems to be hung up on genitals, apparently she doesn't want to date a girl with an extra part. I asked her if she doesn't accept transpeople. She said she accepts transpeople, and then I tell her that she says stuff that is very offensive to us. She then goes ahead and calls Tina a "he", even though she passes very well. I corrected K and told Tina that you have just been clocked, one of the rare times you get clocked. I then told Tina that I would start a thread on CD.com and ask all the transgender people if they would be offended if someone asks you if you're a girl or a guy.

She sees a young pretty girl in the distance and says "she's a real girl." Once again I told her, we're all real girls. It's a bit irritating how someone just doesn't get it, and insists that we're all really just dudes in dresses, even if we pass well, even if we had the surgery.

So my question is for everyone, for all MTF and FTM TSes. If you went out on a date with a cis man or woman, and he/she asks you "are you a girl or a guy?" would you be offended if they ask you this question, or if they ask any similar question in such a forward fashion, on the first date or if you meet for the first time at a party? How would you respond? Would you date that person or decide they're not worth dating?

P.S. K is quite a piece of work, at least I can gather that from the few times I've hung around her. I think she means well, and her attending trans pride probably demonstrates it, but I feel her approach can be very insulting to some.

Edit: First date/first impression edit

[Rogina B]

I kinda doubt she is going to have much luck with people...

[Badtranny]

Wouldn't bother me. She seeems a little socially inept as you describe her, but all that really matters to me is what's in her heart. Frankly if she lives in a queer environment, and she doesn't want to date someone with a penis, then she does need to find a way to start the conversation don't you think? I agree that she's a bit clumsy but so what? She'll eventually figure it out, or she won't have a lot of trans friends, ..which might be fine with her, who knows?

I hope you're not suggesting that not dating a "girl with an extra part" is tantamount to not accepting trans women. Women are still allowed to be attracted to something other than a penis ya know.

[Michelle789]

I don't care if she is attracted to a penis or a vagina, and no not dating me because I have a penis doesn't mean she's transphobic. I don't think she is transphobic at all, otherwise she would have never gone to Trans Pride in the first place. I think her approach is tactless and will offend lots of trans people. I'm not offended by genital comments or questions personally, although I know most transpeople are. I would rather you ask me if I have a penis or vagina, or if I have had the surgery, or if I'm pre- or post-op, rather than am I a guy or a girl, because I am a girl. That is me personally. However most trans people do not want to be asked those questions, especially not on a first date or first time meeting at a party.

I asked this question because I want to see how many of us would be offended by being asked if we're "really guys".

Oh, and please do gender us properly. Especially if you're within the trans community or one of our allies. Cis-friends who knew me as a guy are forgiven, at least for a while.

[Badtranny]

Fair enough Michelle but remember MOST of the "trans" women she has probably met are NOT actually transsexual. The vast majority have been crossdressers or drag queens and in either case, her question wouldn't be cause for offense to a rational person.

The fact is that there are a LOT of dudes that cross gender boundaries for one reason or another but very few trans women, who actually live this way. Some of the part timers are pretty damn stunning, but most of them would have zero interest in your lesbian friend. If you know what I mean. ;-)

[Nicole Erin]

Frankly if she lives in a queer environment, and she doesn't want to date someone with a penis, then she does need to find a way to start the conversation don't you think?
I am sure the said lady has her pick of the choice when it comes to dating. Probably everyone is stumbling over their own feet for the chance to date her. Not.

[Dianne S]

I think what she did was tactless. However, I do not believe it's off-limits to eventually ask someone you're dating if he or she is trans. If you're planning on a serious relationship with someone, that fact is something you deserve to know. People have very strong and personal tastes in partners. Just because someone doesn't want to date a transperson doesn't mean she's transphobic. People eliminate potential partners for all sorts of more trivial reasons.

[Inna]

if someone asks "are you a boy or a girl" answer: YES........................that should occupy their psyche for a while, long enough to walk on your way

[I Am Paula]

She went to trans pride to meet women. Then insists on meeting only genetic women. And then offends everyone she does meet.
I've met guys that dumb, but I gave lesbians more credit.

[LeaP]

...It's a bit irritating how someone just doesn't get it, and insists that we're all really just dudes in dresses, even if we pass well, even if we had the surgery.

...

This is the OP key. I.e., it's not about parts. The issue is that trans people are not credible in this person's view. It is transphobia, evidenced by words like "real" and by randomly gendering people, judging and categorizing them. She is not transphobic because she has a GG dating preference, however, and when it comes to THAT, Misty called it correctly - she's inept.

[PaulaQ]

I get asked various personal questions about my anatomy at least once a week. I'm used to this because I'm obviously handicapped as well, and have had random strangers ask me about my legs for my entire life. Now they just enquire about my vagina, or lack thereof, as well.

You can't really get offended by the question. People mostly don't mean anything by it - some people are just kind of dumb and insensitive. They really don't understand us, and I wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon.

If someone insists, despite your answer of "girl" and explanation, that you are really "just a guy", then sure, that's offensive.

[Nigella]

A cis gendered lesbian is just the same as any other cis person, just because they go to Trans events, does not mean that they understand the trans world. I would doubt that this would be the first time she has been told about trans etiquette.

As to my response to such a personal question it would be quite simple, tell the person asking, "well I guess you ain't ever gonna find out, so long"

[Angela Campbell]

How about, "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" ? I mean , since they're so interested.....

[Michelle789]

Thank you for all your responses. She insisted that most trans people don't get offended, and I see that while some of us don't get offended, plenty of us might feel offended. I personally am not so offended by being asked if I have a penis or a vagina or if I have had the surgery yet, but I would be more offended if I am called a guy, especially if I correct them and they keep insisting.

And yeah, I would be offended if she doesn't call me a guy, but starts insisting that everyone else here are "really guys".

Fwiw, from the few times I have spoken with K, she seems to be very aggressive, forward, and tactless about everything, not just about trans issues. She was also bitching at me and another transwoman there on why we didn't give her a ride and she had to take the bus. I'm sorry, but she lives very far out of the way for me to drive from the Valley to South LA, and back to Hollywood. The other transwoman who she complained about not giving her a ride also lives in the Valley, even further out than I do.

I also feel that transphobia goes in different levels. You get people like K who are open to socializing with trans people, even attending a trans event, but ask if we're really girls or guys. And others who want nothing to do with a trans person but won't inflict violence, and the extreme cases where people would go out of their way to harm, injure, or murder us.

[sandra-leigh]

Context matters.

If a random person on the street were to ask me about my genitals I would be disgruntled.

On dating sites, I make sure to indicate in my profile that I am transsexual in transition; in doing so I do risk missing out on some women who might be willing to give me a chance if they met me before finding it out, but stating it upfront also winnows out the transphobic who don't mind trans people existing somewhere but NIMBY ("Not In My Back Yard"). I don't want to arrange coffee with someone and have them go into trans panic.

On the dating sites, I'm not keen on people asking me about my genitals, but I'd rather that then have problems later. But my response is going to depend on the tone they have taken with me to that point, and upon whether I suspect that they are a scammer or an admirer or are just looking for some nude pictures. I do not seem to have much difficulty in lying to scammers and deliberately wasting their time or drawing them out to the point where they say something definite enough that I can get them banned from the dating site. I can be abrupt or down-putting to admirers or those just looking for cheap thrills. But if I am chatting with someone and they say "I don't know what transsexual means", then I am prepared to explain and to answer polite questions about my genitals (along with telling them that "some do, some don't" for transsexuals.)

[NavyM2F_WAM]

It's a little different on my end. I'm a crossdressing man that wants to become a woman. However, I don't want my attractedness to cis-women to ever change, whether she is a lesbian or just a straight woman that likes post-op transwomen. To answer your question, I wouldn't be offended by that question. I would just be nervous by it.

[Starling]

A cis gendered lesbian is just the same as any other cis person...

Amen, Nigella. They don't know our experience, so for them--if they haven't been educated on the subject--it's just an obsession or a fantasy, or worse. I have a few wonderful cis-lesbian friends who value me for who I really am; but I hate that some people think we present as women in order to fool people or, worse, to molest children. To me, that's crazy and awful.

But I don't think K is a malevolent person. She just doesn't like penises; and I don't either.

:) Lallie

[tina99]

.
(A genetic girl).

No one's ever been offended by that that I know of, although someone has sometimes had to tell them what GG meant.

If they were trans, they usually took it as a complement.

For a few months, I had a pixie cut, and her question would be understandable, because I apparently looked androgynous. Now that I have long hair, I'd be offended by her question.

[Kathryn Martin]

Oh dear, does anyone when reading this thread get a sense of the bizarre? Is this about political correctness, about adhering to trans etiquette? Is it really offensive when a lesbian is attracted to persons with the right set of genitals? What about a gay guy being attracted to guys with penises instead of guys with male between their ears? How offensive is it to a lesbian person being told to love someone because they are female between their ears but have a penis between their legs?

How can you be offended when someone is not attracted to you because of whatever feature makes you unattractive to them.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Ill answer this by saying i expect to be asked what i am because i am different, and many here do not know what i am .
because of a lack of understanding .or not wonting to understand. yet even when explaning it's not accepted ,why because its a subject not talked about and was not explained years ago ,

you can be accepted when people understand . so to ask a ? what are you why not just give an honest answer and maybe explain a little about your self ,

As i have done Nation wide here in our county

. im an intersexed female so that makes me both male and female who has had corrective surgerys and allows me to live and function as a normal female / woman. plus being a non sexual person , ( no sexual organs ) male or female.

Straight to the point and no lie's. and no hiding the truth.

...noeleena...

[Rianna Humble]

Oh dear, does anyone when reading this thread get a sense of the bizarre?

How can you be offended when someone is not attracted to you because of whatever feature makes you unattractive to them.

Yes, I get a sense of the bizarre, when people who have allegedly read the thread criticise posters for exactlly what they have stated is not the issue.


I don't care if she is attracted to a penis or a vagina, and no not dating me because I have a penis doesn't mean she's transphobic. makes it abundantly clear that the thread is not about who the woman is attracted to.


I would rather you ask me if I have a penis or vagina, or if I have had the surgery, or if I'm pre- or post-op, rather than am I a guy or a girl, because I am a girl. That is me personally. However most trans people do not want to be asked those questions, especially not on a first date or first time meeting at a party.

This is the point of offense - asking someone at the first time of meeting whether they are a "girl or a guy" when the event is about transmen and transwomen. I would have thought that even the most uneducated could tell the difference between a transman and a transwoman.

[Starling]

...This is the point of offense - asking someone at the first time of meeting whether they are a "girl or a guy" when the event is about transmen and transwomen. I would have thought that even the most uneducated could tell the difference between a transman and a transwoman.

While I agree in principle, Rianna, in all fairness I think we must acknowledge it's possible that a variety of non-transpeople (including K, herself) were attending the event, be they allies, gawkers or phobes; and that K was just "speed-cruising." There is, however, no denying how stubbornly rude and unconscious she was.

:) Lallie

[FurPus63]

I would be fuming! OMG! At one point I would have been tempted to hit her. How did you tolerate that for so long? YES! The question would definitely knock me off my square as they say. It would have been hard for me to put up with someone who was that disrespectful. To say it once is one thing, to continue throughout your experience with her (for several minutes it sounds like) seems to me she was saying some of those things on purpose just to irritate you. I don't know a trans* person MTF or FTM who wouldn't be offended by that kind of talk. What sucks is you attempt to educate her and she rejects it.

As for being on a date and having someone ask me "are you a girl or a guy?" I would be embarrassed first of all and would probably turn red. However; I never dated anyone without telling them upfront that I was trans*. But if I were to do so and not tell right up front and they asked that, I'd be upset, yes. However; if I explained the situation to them and they still wanted to date me....I would. As long as they were willing to learn how to communicate with me and how to interact with others who are trans*. I mean, if a relationship developed, eventually they'd have no choice. Almost all of my friends and acquaintances are trans* so ...... yeah they better get used to it! LOL!

Paulette

[Angela Campbell]

In truth I have never been asked that question. Then again I don't hang out at "trans" events. If someone did ask me I would tell them the truth, I am a girl.
( At least that's what my birth certificate says. )

doesn't matter what's in my pants, they aren't going to get in there anyway.

[Michelle789]

I'm not sure whether or not she said that specifically to irritate me, but it was a double offense, because not only was she insinuating that I am "really a guy", but so are all the other women here. She just offended the entire trans community at a trans pride event. I spoke with my therapist about the bomb threat, which she said was "despicable" - she was completely outraged by it. Just wait until I tell her about K and her calling us all "guys". This is completely unacceptable behavior for a trans event.

It makes me wonder if she attended trans pride just to antagonize people. I also wonder how many people did she actually walk up to and ask them if they're "really guys". I have AA tomorrow, so I'll be skipping trans group. But next Friday, I will bring this up. And most of the trans people I know from my support group and church were at trans pride, so when I bring this up in front of 25 other trans people, I will get an idea if anyone else had this happen to them.

Thank you Rianna and Paulette, the real issue here is misgendering, not body parts. And yes, I find misgendering me to be FAR more offensive than asking what my body parts are.

[arbon]

What are you going to do when people that actually matter in your life can't get it right?

[Michelle789]

Theresa, once again the question wasn't about your friends or family calling you "sir" or "he". The question was specifically about someone you met for the first time, on a date, trans event, or any other circumstance, who asks if you are "really a girl or a guy?"

[gonegirl]

Michelle - what Theresa asked is a legitimate question for you to consider. She was trying to help you. If you transition then you will encounter this constantly and it will be just one of multitude of things that you will need to deal with. Instead of busting Theresa's chops over this, you should be thanking her.

[LeaP]

Theresa's question was rhetorical and I think fairly asked.

[arbon]

Most of what you have written has been about your friend and how wrong she was.

There are a lot of bigger issues ahead of you. Don't hold on to tightly to the small s***.

[Nicole Erin]

Yes the lesbian woman (whatever her name is) was wrong. Thing is, a lot of "out and proud" lesbians are tactless anyways.
This means you cannot expect much from them. Think of it like this -

When a little kid blurts out something at the grocery like, "Look mom! That guy has only one arm!" Yes it is annoying but the person saying it is just a kid who doesn't know better so we do not and really cannot expect high levels of etiquette. Same with a lot of these loud and proud lesbians. They are NOT ladies. Do not expect them to act as such.

[Kimberly Kael]

Really, Nicole? You don't think you might be generalizing a wee bit and insulting an entire group of people in the process. I can think of at least one out and proud lesbian who is being extraordinarily tactful right now. If anyone should know better than to accuse a woman (much less an entire subculture of women) of not being ladies, you'd think a trans woman might be able to muster some empathy.

K from the OP was indeed being insensitive and callous, and deserves to be called out for it, but it doesn't tell us anything about lesbians in general, or women, or Los Angeles residents. It just tells us about her.

[mikiSJ]

I am with Misty on the ineptitude your acquaintance displayed. But it is an efficient method of sorting out the possibilities of a nightly hook-up and it appears from your post that was all she was interested in.

When I was an inept 18 y/o male in the mid-60s, on Friday and Saturday nights I would simply walk up to a girl who had returned my smile and ask her if she 'wanted to go somewhere and eff'. As crude and offensive as that may seem, it was effective and while I did receive mostly looks of astonishment and much earned verbal abuse in return - more often than not it was effective.

[Michelle789]

Yes the lesbian woman (whatever her name is) was wrong. Thing is, a lot of "out and proud" lesbians are tactless anyways.
This means you cannot expect much from them. Think of it like this -


K from the OP was indeed being insensitive and callous, and deserves to be called out for it, but it doesn't tell us anything about lesbians in general, or women, or Los Angeles residents. It just tells us about her.

Thank you Kimberly :)

Lesbians? I see lots of lesbians at MCC, and none of them ever did what K did. Most of them have lots of tact. Even if they don't believe we're really girls behind the scenes, they don't tell us that on our faces. And they certainly don't go up to us asking us such rude questions on a first meet up.

I personally know a straight woman (she's trans) who lacks tact, and says all sorts of inappropriate things who even misgenders people to their face. And she's straight.

Women? There are rude and tactless women, and rude and tactless men. There are both men and women who are very polite. There are catty women and men too.

K is just a rude tactless person. It's not just trans stuff. She also demands rides from people who have to drive obviously out of their way to pick her up. She happened to be not only rude, but apply her rudeness towards transpeople and our issues as well.

Los Angeles residents? I cannot even begin to imagine how we can generalize 10 million people. Also what do you count as Los Angeles? L.A. proper, which is 4 million people. L.A. and major satellite cities like Beverly Hills, Santa Monica, Long Beach, Burbank, plus other South Bay and SFV cities, which is probably 5-6 million people. All of L.A. county, which is 10 million people. Maybe add Ventura, San Bernardino, Riverside, and Orange counties, so now it's 15 million. How about Lancaster, which has nothing in common (maybe) with L.A. other than being in the same county.

We have a reputation, it's California. The land where everyone is queer, in polymorous relationships, where you can't tell if they're men or women, and everyone is accepting of trans people. None of those are even true. We are as diverse as can get. Sure, some of us are gay. Some of us in polyamorous relationships. Some of us are TG. We're probably more accepting of TG people than most other places, but we have transphobes too. Plenty of straight, cis people too. Plenty of families out here. Lots of elementary, middle, and high schools to prove it. Not everyone is in the entertainment industry, and not everyone drives cars. Not everyone is Mexican either, far from it.