Double standards

[KatieV]

This week's New York Times Sunday mag had an interesting feature on a women who is a WBA star; she also happens to be a lesbian - likes wearing men's clothing and wears it well, too. Not only is she accepted as such, fashion designers are gifting her clothing and featuring her in their photo shoots. Seems as if women who display male attributes and attitudes are respected and even admired, and thought of as successful, while men who display female attributes and wear women's clothing are marginalized. Women get so much more latitude! I can't imagine a gay NBA star doing a fashion spread for Vogue - we still have a long way to go before we are accepted for who we are, especially by men....

[AnneC]

How about Dennis Rodman?

[Teresa]

Kay I hate to say it but they are only interested because it will make them more money ! Besides men are just perverts and women explore different dimensions !! They say it's a man's world, it's funny how we're often the losers !!

[PaulaQ]

True story - out masculine lesbian women face much discrimination and prejudice.

[Kate Simmons]

It doesn't really matter to me what society does as a whole. I care about people for who they are as people. Society as a whole is never going to welcome the TG community with open arms.:)

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Kay, That's just the way it is and I don't see it changing any time soon.

[kimdl93]

The attention owes exclusively to the Celebrity status of an individual. That's the double standard.

[bimini1]

Any time one group is considered to be above another group in a society there will always be a double standard no matter what the issue is.

[Wildaboutheels]

I am a little confused. I sure hope you are not implying that what happens/goes on with the rich and famous people has any Relationship whatsoever to REALITY?

REALITY can be found right here at this very Forum. By all kinds of folks "presenting" in all manner of ways, many NOT making any attempt/needing to "pass" for any reason and NEVER or almost never having a problem with JD Public. Going to all kinds of places. Ok, a few might be lying? Surely you don't think everyone is.

I hope?

The REAL enemy for most CDers can be found in the nearest mirror.

[arbon]

What about men like Andrej Pejic and Johnny Weir?

[Michelle789]

The REAL enemy for most CDers can be found in the nearest mirror.

I agree with this statement 99%. Yes in most public places, if you own it, you will be fine. Even if you're clocked most people don't care, and most likely you aren't getting clocked.

I disagree with this statement 1%. When someone is assaulted or murdered because they're read as being transgender, or someone loses their job or S.O. or family or friends because they're transgender, there is real transphobia out there.

It is tempting to assume that everything bad that happens to us is transphobia. Much of it is just part of being a woman, and the loss of male privileges, as well as corporate USA, people who just like to be jerks, and life in general.

It can be difficult to separate what is truly transphobia from what we perceive to be transphobia.

Much of the double standard in women being allowed to wear male attire, but men not being allowed to wear female attire, is due to the fact that most men see embracing anything feminine as a "downgrade", while most women view embracing anything masculine as no big deal - neither an upgrade or a downgrade.

Society views women wearing male clothing as an upgrade, but men wearing female clothing as a downgrade. The problem I have with this idea is that society generally accepts downgrades more than upgrades. It is way easier for a rich person to be downgraded to a poor person than for a poor person to be upgraded to a rich person. It is more acceptable for a rich person to be stingy, than it is for a poor person to spend money they don't have.

Society, and people, like to keep everyone in their place, because they're afraid of change.

Many people won't accept change unless it's forced on them. Life has a way of forcing change on you whether you're ready or not.

[PaulaQ]

@michelle & WAH - there is a lot more transphobia than you might expect. A LOT more. We are not generally viewed as human beings. The people who treat us decently are, unfortunately, the exception.

Not that many people who clock us will actually attack, but we are frequently treated very very poorly, particularly if we don't pass well.

[Michelle789]

@Paula, I think transphobia is far worse when dealing with family, jobs, S.O., and friends, and other people who you deal with in close proximity. In crowded public places, the average person is too self-absorbed in their own business to even care.

I may be biased because I venture out mostly in the gender friendly East Valley and Hollywood, so sure I might be biased. Hollywood and SFV aren't the real world, after all.

[UNDERDRESSER]

Much of the double standard in women being allowed to wear male attire, but men not being allowed to wear female attire, is due to the fact that most men see embracing anything feminine as a "downgrade", while most women view embracing anything masculine as no big deal - neither an upgrade or a downgrade.

Society views women wearing male clothing as an upgrade, but men wearing female clothing as a downgrade. The problem I have with this idea is that society generally accepts downgrades more than upgrades. While this is true, and I agree with you it is a problem, I have a bigger problem with anything "feminine" or identified as such, being considered a downgrade in the first place!

I have personality traits, that many consider "feminine." I think that most men who also feel this way suppress it because of this attitude.

[Michelle789]

Some people believe that women gaining equality to men is a DOWNGRADE for women.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I am a little confused. I sure hope you are not implying that what happens/goes on with the rich and famous people has any Relationship whatsoever to REALITY?



This what I'm thinking. Celebrities are not the real world and can do what they like. I remember an actor from 'Lord of the Rings' admitting he wore high heels and other women's items and everyone thought it cute. Someone mentioned Dennis Rodman - I don't think his reputation has been touched by his crossdressing.

The difference is celebrities are naturally narcisstic and confident and just don't care what others think, otherwise they wouldn't do what they do! This includes sportsman etc. Joe Public has a much harder time going about the daily tasks of work and school drop off and life in general if they're not blending in. Sad but true. I don't think women get away with this either, as Paula mentioned.

Will it ever change? Maybe, but I don't think crossdressing is the answer as it's too small. What you need is men everywhere to stand up and insist you have freedom of expression as much as women. We fought this battle...now it's your turn! :)

[Beverley Sims]

Kay,
That's the way it is and probably always will be. :)

[Paulacder]

It's always ben that way. Lez. gals have always ben more accepted by society than gay men..........

[Marcelle]

Hi Kay,

I really do not see this as a true double standard more a societal aberration. I think Michelle hit the nail on the head in that "men, masculine traits, behaviors" are seen (now before anyone hoists me on my petard . . . I do not think this I am only pointing out what society says :battingeyelashes:) as valuable to get ahead. So a woman acting like a man (not necessarily sporting a Tom Sellek moustache) is more likely as Michelle said to be seen as an upgrade and more likely accepted. Whereas for me to don a sundress, heels, make-up and purse . . . well in the mind of many "That dog don't hunt son" . . . Why would I want to give up male privilege to dress pretty? Again all . . . that is how I believe society sees us not me. :)

As for double standard . . . well even if a woman was to dress like a man, act like a man, spit like a man and whatnot . . . she would still hit that glass ceiling . . . now that is a true double standard.

Hugs

Isha

[Mollyanne]

How about Dennis Rodman?

THIS GUY HAS A FEW SCREWS LOOSE!!!!!!!

Molly

[sometimes_miss]

Much of the double standard in women being allowed to wear male attire, but men not being allowed to wear female attire, is due to the fact that most men see embracing anything feminine as a "downgrade", while most women view embracing anything masculine as no big deal - neither an upgrade or a downgrade.
And even bigger problem that MTF's have to deal with, is that women feel the right to do whatever they want when crossing gender behavior lines, but do not accept a man who does the same thing in the other direction. They usually are sexually turned off by a male who exhibits feminine behavior, but clearly are drawn to alpha male traits, and dressing/behaving like a female clearly isn't one of them.

[KatieV]

So many good insights - thank you all for your thoughful comments! Yes, celebrity status trumps all. Women attaining male stautus a downgrade - I can see that, too - something gained but something lost. And yes, women who assume certain male traits that contribute to their 'success' are looked upon favorably. What is missed is the value of the feminine traits such as compromise; willingness to listen with an open mind; and the quality of nurturing, are not given their due. Men who display those qualities are considered wimps. And double standard is not really precise - maybe different standard is better?

[CynthiaD]

... Men who display those qualities are considered wimps. ...

What I find interesting is how it also goes the other way. Over the years I have developed an ultra-macho presentation in male mode. It's all an act, of course. I did it mainly for self-protection.

I'm astounded by how many people automatically believe that I'm also a bigot, a homophobe, a mysogynist, and yes, even a transphobe. My "wimpier" friends often tell me how I've got to be more tolerant and understanding. More often than not, I'm wearing a bra and panties under my male clothing during one of these lectures.

I find the whole thing hilarious. Maybe one of these days I'll pretend to get really mad about it, rip off my shirt, and challenge them to a fight! :) I wonder what they'll think about my bra? :) :) :)

[Teresa]

Cynthia it depends if you're wearing the bullet proof one or the studded one but obviously in a soft pink shade, can' have them thinking you've gone aggressive on them !!

[Kate T]

Seriously, are we really playing the "grass is always greener" tune still?

I have very little doubt that the woman in question has had to fight a lifetime of discrimination, ostracization and prejudice to get where she is and achieve what she has achieved. How many of us have had to fight against these in our lives? I know I have had to fight very little prejudice to get where I am today.

I don't think making a judgement on how much easier someones life must be than mine either specifically or as a broad generalisation is helpful for anyone. I doubt you intended it but the approach you have taken smells a bit of politically correct chauvinism.

[Aprilrain]

Thank you Adina, that was refreshing.

[KatieV]

Adina,

As in spring - love that name.
You're right, that's not what I intended. I have no envy of 'easier' - it's just my observation on societal acceptance. I'm definitely not politically correct, far from it.

katy

[Alice Torn]

We are living in the 20teens, not the 1950's. The pendulum has swung, swung swung. Colleges and universities are over 60% women, as is grad school. There is a book that came out4 or5 years ago, written by a woman, "The War On Boys." During the 1990's Poet Robert Bly led the "mens' movement, and wrote a book, "Iron John." He wrote and talked about the male energy "going down into the ashes" under ground. American women may still be under some "glass ceilings" in some cases, but, for the most part, women are flying high, at least as far as single women i have known, while I know more and more men "going down in the ashes". Of course there always will be individuals , men or women, who suffer discrimination. But the trend has been to exalt the girls, and fluster the boys for a while now. Just listen to most radio advertisements, where the male si the bumbling doofus, corrected by the smart woman. I love women, don't get me wrong! But, in my reality, this is the case, and i am well informed, on shortwave radio, AM and fm radio, internet, some television,not much. Watching old shows, then new shows, what a contrast in attiudes. They had an all day "Father Knows Best" thing on meTV on Fathers Day. Culture shock!!!

[Hermana]

Does it make a difference, what the imagined "standards" are? If we have a passion for something... anything... why would we not ignore the opinions of other people who are never going to help us achieve our goals anyway?

I suspect there are very few people in this world who would be utterly friendless if they just went out and pursued their goal. Perhaps there is not a double standard, so much as another social phenomenon which masquerades as one.

Perhaps instead, what some people call "double standards" is this: Whatever we do in this world, however we choose to live life, there are always people who will support us, and others who will criticise us. For whatever we do. Why then, would we choose to stay around criticisers and then complain of suffering from apparent double standards? Perhaps, and this is just my suggestion, we simply need to do a sideways social shift and find the company of those who happen to be walking a similar or sympathetic life path to our own.

Yes, there are those who may say that struggle and criticism are character-building. Er - yes - perhaps, but not if it is in a destructive context. We can complain of how hard life is, or we can move the context (ie.find our friendly fellow travellers), and then never have to give up our passion - for that is what makes us truly alive.

Travelling with friends, we still hear the critics, but the criticism no longer hurts, nor holds us back.

Love