Feeling feminine...

[Tina_gm]

There is a current convo going on in the ask a GG section about the word and phrase, "feeling feminine." Ok, I concede that I as a guy may have somewhat of a different interpretation of what "feeling feminine" or being feminine may be.

There is stereotypical feminine behavior and mannerisms, of which I qualify for, not by choice even, it just naturally happens at times. But, there are other adjectives that perhaps could explain what this femininity is. For me though, I can say that most simply do not apply, not really. At least, not with anything that could not also be associated with being a guy. A guy can feel sexy, although not the same way as a girl can. And sensual too. Vulnerable was an adjective that was discussed as a possible way of feeling feminine..... But me at 5'9" bumping into a 6'5" steroid freak with roid rage with a history of violence and being somewhat intoxicated adding to the mix, feeling vulnerable in this situation does not lead to femininity in of itself.

I really am curious about this. What is feminine to us, to GG's?? For me, I attribute it to relating to women moreso than anything else. I empathize with them, understand them in a way most men cannot. I feel a certain likeness.... I notice more things about them then men when feeling "feminine" I am more inclined to pay attention or want to browse women's clothing sections when feeling feminine. For me it is about relating to moreso than anything else. And vice versa when feeling more "masculine." So, just curious about what feminine is or means to anyone else.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I don't doubt what you feel, Gendermutt, as you're the only one inside your head :) I just don't think feelings are divided into gender. They're human feelings and we all have them. What you describe just sounds like a guy with a softer, more expressive side and in our current social climate, the world of women gives you an opportunity to safely show this side of yourself. I know plenty of women who are less emotional and more driven than your average guy, yet I've never heard them say they feel masculine. I really do think these feminine/masculine feelings described here are largely a creation of the crossdressing community and for whatever reason there's a need here to compartmentalise them this way. But for me, feelings are without gender and I never associate aggression with a masculine side (whatever that is!) anymore than feeling nurturing makes me feel feminine. They're just feelings; nothing more.

But like I said, I can't get in your head as you can't get in mine, so if you say it's a feminine thing I can't really argue with that. Well, not too much, anyway, lol.

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with Tinkerbelle in that these are human feelings. We all have them. We all just don't express them. To myself a big part of being feminine is caring and sharing and being family oriented, caring about one another. Sometimes men feel acting like that makes them look weak. Quite the contrary it's a strength that surpasses anything physical and is more long lasting. That is the true secret of being feminine and is why we love our women folk so much. Don't forget we all start out in the womb as female and a male is just a specialized woman by virtue of hormone distribution.:)

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Inside my head there is no desire to "feel" feminine, but there is a strong visual component. I want to look feminine. Does that count? Without sounding flippant, and with no intent to disparage women or those that transition, the ideal scenario would be to remain a man mentally, aware that I am a man, with all of my self-perceived male mental strengths and my male experiences, but to have that wrapped in a beautiful female body, face, and clothing. Essentially, to be me inside, but be a woman outside. Is that psychotic? To me, that would be a delightful and powerfully erotic scenario. If I were a woman, looking and dressing as a woman would no longer be taboo or deliciously sensual. If, however, I could look and dress convincingly as a woman, while retaining my masculine internal identity, all the external trappings of femininity would stay special. Also, probably revealing, is that I would not use my appearance to attract men--in my mental movie my wife would love the feminine me. Maybe this is what defines me as a fetishistic dresser? I hope I am making sense, and that there are a few kindred spirits here. Please don't misinterpret my comments as trivializing the deeper feelings of those members who need or desire more...I'm just one point on the spectrum.

Thanks

Shibumi

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Shibumi, my H would say exactly what you just said, so no, you're not alone in these feelings :)

[AKADonna]

To me, the feminine urges have become increasingly common as I have aged. When I respond to these urges with simply underdressing or dressing completley en femme, I find that I am a completely different person. I tend to be much calmer, much easier to get along with and much more cooperative! The softer, more feminine side comes out in many ways. I think that these feelings are entirely personal and internalized to me. I really don't care much about what others think about it or how they would classify it. I just love it!

[Beverley Sims]

I kinda agree with you gendermutt, I have similar feelings, now Tinkerbell has added to the mix making me realise I have a soft spot for women and try to understand and relate to them and at the same time these are masculine feelings.

I think I will go sit in a corner and try to re-discover myself yet again. :)

[jaleecd]

My illusion of being feminine aches to experience the grace, beauty and close social sheared experiences that woman share. the ability to express loving non sexual touching and hugging, the knowing look shared to express a common experience that women have had to put up with. The modes of dress that is expressive of feelings, activeties or even their sense of sexual attractiveness that is so natural. Women, love them, but I will never be clever enough to fully experience the lovely essence of their life experience....Sigh.....

[Marcelle]

I think the problem with terminology here is that is it is difficult to disentangle the stereotypes from the gender and we begin to attribute specific actions/behaviors with a gender and claim that as femininity or masculinity. Women are more calm, loving, nurturing, gentle, emotionally expressive . . . men are more aggressive, distant, aloof, confident, hard charging, breadwinners. As society advances (thankfully) these concepts are blurring across the genders. I know plenty of stay home dads who fit what this "femininity" concept is while their wives go out and earn the money. Then again I know both men and women who have both sides of the traits.

For me it is not about acting (with the exception of mannerisms, presentation, voice) feminine as there is really no one feminine trait only a broad swath of human emotion and behaviors of which both genders are capable. Do I relate more to women, understand them the way most men cannot? Well, I can appreciate what women go through to get ready to go out (make-up and all). I can appreciate and understand how certain styles of clothing (dresses, skirts) can make women feel vulnerable. I can relate to their hopes and dreams the same way I can relate to any persons hopes and dreams which might be similar. However as a CDer I cannot truly understand women because I have not lived that gender completely or long enough to truly comprehend. I get a glimpse of it but only the superficial (presentation portion) not the whole spectrum . . . kind of being on the outside looking in . . . what you see is only a portion which you can mimic. To give an analogy, it is like when I was young and always wanted to be a soldier, I played army, dressed in army like clothes but I never truly knew what it meant to be a soldier until I become one full time. :)

Hugs

Isha

[Kate Simmons]

What Isha said is true. Once you live the role, you more or less begin to understand the mechanics of it. Then again most stuff in life is really "seat of the pants" and there is no right or wrong way to do things in the final analysis, only experience.:)

[Katey888]

More searching for one of those meanings, Mutt..? :) I agree this is a very tricky one...

Sometimes you can gain insight by asking a similar question, or a contrary question - so how do we all feel when we're feeling masculine? (Perhaps that's not entirely productive, as I think we do have a big variance of masculinity here, but...) I'll admit I spend the vast majority of my time as male me, as do many others here, but I'd like to think when the urge comes (and it is growing at the moment...) I, like others, can portray a very feminine image... I think it's that part that comes first for many of us.. (I have a feeling Wild will be pleased about that..;)) But in normal male life I don't go around grunting, knuckle-dragging and continually adjusting my boxers (metaphorically, of course..) - so not an archetypal macho image either (but I know there are some here that do portray that archetype... that is another interesting aspect..)

The transformation for me starts with the image - the feeling of femininity grows as the image develops into something that more closely matches what I want see as my ideal image... Once that is right, or complete, then my movement, mannerisms, posture, expressions also modify... all become more 'feminine', and with that, something of a feeling... but my actual feelings - emotions, fears, joys, desires - don't really change... I'd accept that it's difficult to confirm this because I don't interact with anyone when feminine me... I'm sure this would feel different.

However - a lot of what you describe I can relate to, but I think we can sometimes be prone to go searching for something that affirms our femininity more than 'average guy'. A lot of what you describe also falls into the 'imagery' of femininity - you notice things about women (visual); you want to browse clothing sections (visual)... What you describe as stereotypical is learned behaviour... mannerisms, expressions, posture... I think what Tinks has said about some women is true where they will actively work against the stereotype for some reason - I doubt they are feeling they are suffering an excess of masculinity...

Femininity, for me, does seem to be communicated through a lot of visual cues - the more I think of it, the more I realise how much conditioning plays a part in this... Quite a rabbit-hole, it seems... :thinking: Femininity then for me is typified by: delicacy of expression, elegance, grace, softness, empathy, being pretty and sensual... :)

Perhaps it would be worth asking our few FtM folk how they perceive feeling masculine? There might be some insight there as a complementary perspective...?

Katey x

[Mollyanne]

Feeling feminine is defined by ones own perception of femininity. An example of which would be------If you observed a muscle bound woman who stood 6 feet tall and weighed 210 lbs would you consider her feminine????? Now the reverse----If you saw a very attractive woman who stood 5.5 ft tall with flowing hair, perfect make-up and a very flattering out wouldn't you consider that woman feminine????? I guess you could say femininity is in the eyes of the beholder!!!!!

Molly

[suchacutie]

That first day that Tina appeared (almost 9 years ago) neither I nor my wife knew what to do with her, or even who she was. It was probably the 6 in. heels that forced a change in body movement from square one, but this complete lack of knowledge sent us off into constant discussions about what it is like to be a girl, and what that meant in terms of Tina.

Part of the discussion was about physical presentation, of course since that was an immediate necessity to match Tina's internal feelings to her appearance and physical actions (looks, deportment, voice, clothes, etc.), but that was just the surface. We talked about our different experiences growing up in different gender stereotypes and perspectives. Then there were the insightful discussions of identical topics with my wife asking questions of opinion on those topics, first with my male self, and then with Tina. When I asked her why she did this, she said she wanted to know if my gendered selves looked at the world differently. Amazingly enough, there were differences!

There is extensive literature concerning the differences between the genders. These differences are surely not absolute, but they have shown to be statistically meaningful.

Our experience is that my gendered selves fall, generally, into these statistically significant differences. Tina is treated as a separate person in mos circumstances. My wife has no trouble separating my masculine and feminine selves, based upon our experiences and our readings. It's not possible to point to any one trait that separates my gendered selves, but what comes across to my wife is a person (Tina) who is looked upon as her girlfriend, the feminine side of her husband.

I'm confident this experience can't be generalised as this is such a complicated and personal experience. We see Tina as feminine, and that's probably all that we can say for sure :)

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi GM, When I get dressed and put on my wig and look in the mirror That's when I feel feminine.

[MatildaJ.]

I like Isha's take.

I feel that when crossdressers say they feel "feminine" when they look like a woman, that puts women in a rigid box where they are judged inadequate (unfeminine) if they have muscles and angular features and walk with big confident steps (or do anything else that is not considered feminine). I encourage cross-dressers to help break down those gender roles, so men and women can act however they want, without being mocked for it.

"Vulnerable was an adjective that was discussed as a possible way of feeling feminine" -- that's actually the opposite of what I mean. I don't mean that vulnerable = feminine, I mean that let's talk about how you actually want to be perceived, without telling women how they should feel.

If you, a crossdresser, want to have someone hold a door open for you, say that. But don't say: "I want to look like a woman because then people will hold doors open for me." If you, a crossdresser, want to look like a sexy cougar, then say that. But don't encourage the stereotype that all women over 40 are supposed to be cougars. Maybe think about what you personally would choose to experience if you were a woman, and then explore how to get those experiences. But don't act like all women naturally have those experiences, or should want those experiences. There are a million ways of being a woman, and very few of them are "soft" or "cooperative" or "elegant" or "graceful." If you actually want to know about women's real experience (not the fantasy version), then ask women to talk about their relationships with their mothers & daughters, or their relationships with their brothers, or with their bosses and colleagues. That's a good starting point.

But if you want to stay with fantasy versions of the female experience, then keep imagining that women are constantly sharing "knowing looks" and wanting to browse the women's clothing department, and feeling beautiful. I almost never share "knowing looks" with another women; I never want to go shopping, and I rarely feel beautiful.

Take a poll of the women you know and ask them what percent of the time they feel beautiful and graceful and want to go shopping and feel a bond of sisterhood with other women.

Or don't, and continue to live in your fantasy, but don't tell us that dressing as a woman has made you sensitive to our real experience, please. The way to learn how women experience the world is to ask them about it, not to put on panties and stockings.

[Tina_gm]

Jesse, I would never simply equate dressing to all femininity. You almost seem angry about this.... It is merely a thought or thoughts I have about how and why I feel the desire to dress. The more I feel a connection to women, generally the more I desire to dress as one. How can I a guy aka crossdressers feel feminine when I am a guy? well, I have been described more than once as a "feminine man" by women both times btw, one being my wife. If I a guy, a crossdresser and a feminine man (considered by some) would it somehow be possible to feel feminine? I can't logically say I feel like a woman, or can I?

I do feel a difference when I am more centered in a masculine mindset..... difference phrase there, mindset, than a feminine one. My best ways of differentiating the two are by a feeling of connection, or something shared, or relating to. I really don't think we CDers need to be beat up because we feel something different, something more like a woman. After all, there is something that connects us to female, or feminine. Something that gives us a desire to experience physical sensations that women experience.

Some GG's here, definitely you JesseM do not like our use of the word feminine. I would only suggest that the physical sensations are at least a part of a feminine experience, so, why not be able to say we feel feminine when we experience the physical aspect of it? I agree, that alone does not give a full experience of femininity.

Still, I would say for many of us, there is something internal that drives us to want to experience the physical sensations, To look visually like a woman. For those who go out in public, they enjoy the sensations of being treated like women, to be addressed in female pronouns. I really do not think it should be all that bad that those experiences when desired and enjoyed to be considered to feeling feminine.

[MatildaJ.]

I'm not angry, but I'm frustrated that I don't seem able to communicate my point.

There are a lot of stereotypes about women, and saying "I feel feminine" reinforces those stereotypes.

If I drank from a baby bottle and stuck my thumb in my mouth and said "I feel babyish," that would not mean I was close to what real babies experience in their developing minds & bodies. I would just be experiencing the stereotype, cartoonish version of being a baby.

If I wore a tiara and rode in a horse-drawn carriage, and said "I feel regal," that would not mean I was close to what real royalty experience, which is probably a lot of annoyance at the politics of managing a government and having to cope with the invasiveness of the media.

If I mentored a young student and proudly watched them graduate and said "I feel maternal," that would not mean I was close to experiencing anything like what real mothers go through.

So, I can't stop anyone from using the word "feminine," but I can post in ways to show that it can't convey the reality of being a woman. I think most women rarely feel feminine.

Do most guys feel "masculine", on a regular basis, as they shower, make their coffee, drive to work, struggle to get their job done well, and then come home and play with their kids? Or do you just feel like a person, trying to get through the day?

[Momarie]

"Feeling feminine" to me, has nothing to do about how you LOOK.
It's all about how you feel when you show your love through nurturing, comforting, empathy, compassion.

I guess when you're an immature girl it's all about the superficial accoutrements of makeup, panties, shaving your legs, hose, shoes, nail polish and skimpy outfits.
But when you are a woman, it's about still feeling feminine even when you're just mundanely cooking, cleaning, wiping up puke and changing muddy diapers. You know you can still feel cute and sexy, even if you're not at the moment.

It's about working hard, day in and day out at whatever your job may be, knowing as a woman this is the life you chose.
It's about being responsible and getting through the mundane stuff with a happy heart.....still having the ability to have fun and show love...to those you love.

If the "superficial accoutrements" make you feel good, that's wonderful!
But I don't think it has much to do with being feminine or being a woman.

[Jamiegirl1]

To me, the feminine urges have become increasingly common as I have aged. When I respond to these urges with simply underdressing or dressing completley en femme, I find that I am a completely different person. I tend to be much calmer, much easier to get along with and much more cooperative! The softer, more feminine side comes out in many ways. I think that these feelings are entirely personal and internalized to me. I really don't care much about what others think about it or how they would classify it. I just love it!

I have to agree with Donna,The older I get,I want to be more feminine looking and feeling and if that means to be softer,gentler,more submissive feeling ,then I guess that's what it is to me to feel feminine...I love to feel pretty,with makeup,wig,pretty dress painted nails.....I just feel feminine!!!! I definitely feel like a different person when dressed as a woman....so much happier....

[Momarie]

I get ya Jess.
You communicate great!

[MatildaJ.]

Thanks, Momarie!

[Zooey]

I like Jess and Momarie's descriptions. I'll add that my perspective on femininity has changed pretty substantially over the last year or two, as I've spent more and more time out and about amongst both other CD/TG folks, as well as "regular folks". I've never considered myself much of a misogynist, but I'm downright frustrated about the state of things in the world right now.

I get really frustrated sometimes. because I honestly feel like some of the biggest misogynists I've met have been CDs. I've seen in it person, and I've seen it online. This is probably an unpopular opinion here, but the incredibly shallow definition of what it means to be feminine that is constantly on display is disheartening to me. I agree with some others that feeling like I share any kind of understanding (beyond the average dude) of womanhood is a big part of "feeling feminine". So, here are the things I now understand first-hand that make me "feel feminine"...


I know what it feels like to be truly afraid while walking back to my car at night
I know what it feels like to be judged harshly for not dressing the way somebody thinks I should, and often by people who should understand
I know what it feels like to constantly feel like I'm not pretty enough
I know what it feels like to have a day where I DO feel pretty enough, only for somebody who I considered an ally/friend to ruin it
I know what it feels like to have d-bags constantly hassle me (online and in person) when I very visibly have no interest in them
I know what it feels like to be objectified
I know what it feels like to be afraid that somebody is going to hurt me, and feel confined, restricted, and defensive as a result


...and I still can't really understand what any of that is like, because I have the luxury of turning pretty much all of that off more or less anytime I please.

So I dunno, do I really "feel feminine"? Maybe? I don't really care much... I'm content to say that I'm working on being happy in my own skin (whatever's on it at the time), and I deeply empathize with some of the ridiculous bullcrap that I see my insanely talented and beautiful female friends dealing with all the time.

[jaleecd]

I am coming to the realization that the "feelings" I have are not valid, according to the experts on this site. My observations of GGs and their interactions don't meet a criteria, so they are not valid. My feelings are as reported, and valid to my understanding of what I feel is feminine. I was never allowed to enlist in the female world, so my take on it is by observation through marriage, children, grand children, and two great grand daughters. my poor attempts to explain those feelings are laughed at or at least made fun of, because i could not really be privy to something that none of us can really experence without the advantage of XX cromesones.. i appologize for the attempt....

[Tinkerbell-GG]

my poor attempts to explain those feelings are laughed at or at least made fun of, because i could not really be privy to something that none of us can really experence without the advantage of XX cromesones.. i appologize for the attempt....

Jalee, at the very start of your post you explain that this is your 'illusion of being feminine', so despite this illusion being very different to actual reality for most women, I knew what you were saying :) And no, I don't think there's anything funny about how you feel. This is what femininity means to YOU. And while I completely agree there is this continual thread here about women being nothing more than a set of superficial behaviours, I also get that you're all looking from the outside in and without an invitation, you're making up your own stories about life on this side. I admire you for already understanding this, Jalee, I really do. Understanding is half the battle!

To everyone else, maybe it's time to come up with a new word? I won't pretend that the use of 'femininity' here isn't insulting. As Jess pointed out, unless you're going about your every day life thinking about how masculine you feel, you can imagine our exasperation. So I thank Gendermutt for bringing this up. We girls didn't come this far in modern life to be compartmentalised this way. We are HUMAN, as much as the next bloke, and there are NO set feelings or behaviours that make a woman. We're ALL different.

We're just like you! :)

[Kate Simmons]

In my mind the bottom line is that whatever we project is not a "thing" but is who we are as a person.:)

[Katey888]

My feelings are as reported, and valid to my understanding of what I feel is feminine. I was never allowed to enlist in the female world, so my take on it is by observation through marriage, children, grand children, and two great grand daughters. my poor attempts to explain those feelings are laughed at or at least made fun of, because i could not really be privy to something that none of us can really experence without the advantage of XX cromesones.. i appologize for the attempt....
Jalee - you don't need to apologise for expressing how YOU felt - if someone doesn't appreciate, understand or like those feelings, that's their issue to deal with, not yours. And btw, I suspect that your feelings are about as far as most of us can go to try to explain the way we believe we might feel. :hugs:


"Feeling feminine" to me, has nothing to do about how you LOOK.
It's all about how you feel when you show your love through nurturing, comforting, empathy, compassion.

But when you are a woman, it's about still feeling feminine even when you're just mundanely cooking, cleaning, wiping up puke and changing muddy diapers. You know you can still feel cute and sexy, even if you're not at the moment.

Wow! So men can't do those things and feel... what? Less masculine? More feminine? If that description isn't a stereotype from 50 years past I don't know what is...

Why are we so stuck on the binary again here? Aren't there (pardon the terminology, but I think it's relevant...) butch women and effeminate men? Isn't this question about degree of femininity or masculinity just another of those 'spectrum' perspectives that is anything but binary?
And if it isn't binary, then - setting aside physical gender attributes - there is a spectrum with an arbitrary line, on one side of which is masculine, and the other side is feminine... And if that's the case, why shouldn't some men be able to feel some aspects of femininity? I don't - I've already admitted that much of what I experience is 'imagery' or illusion - but that doesn't mean that others don't feel aspects, any less than females can 'feel' masculine in the same way...

I think we (male/female) are fundamentally a lot closer in many ways, than most people and society want us to believe, but it serves society well to have clearly defined roles and behaviours within our gender groups... Of course there are absolutes in this - the absolute physical differences - but feelings are a lot more complex and pliable...

Katey x

[audreyinalbany]

As usual, I find myself agreeing with Tink. We're all just people, going about our business of being people and I think feeling 'feminine' or 'masculine' takes a conscious effort. If you just dress as you want and act like you then you're feeling…well…you're feeling like you. I was doing some clean out the other day and decided to get 'girled up'; capris, pretty top, touch of make up and wig. i got back to my cleaning up and didn't feel particularly masculine or feminine, just felt like me cleaning up the basement. Maybe we overcomplicate this cross dressing thing.

[Teresa]

Sometimes when you read these threads people talk as if men and women live on different planets and they only encounter them occasionally !
In my photography I had to learn the difference between photographing men and women, I had to get to know them and try and get inside their heads I didn't want to become them only understand them to get the best pictures. Women are not untouchable specimens on pedestals they are normal human beings that like being treated in a kind and civilised way, they are not all airy fairy and twee, they are down to earth practical people. As CDers in our minds we think we are acting female, in reality we are some way off the truth !
I wonder how many members have worked with women for thirty years, in a situation where you have to touch them, adjust their clothes, make real eye contact with them and make them feel attractive and even sexy !!

[Tina_gm]

I am fine if a different word is used. But, perhaps I am not communicating my point successfully. Wearing articles of womens's clothing alone does not make a person feminine. Feminine looking perhaps, but I guess what I am attempting to get at is what drives anyone to want to look or act in a certain way? What is it about me that has caused me to naturally act in some ways more common among women than men? What is it about me that makes me feel a sense of comfort and just an overall right state of being by dressing in women's clothing?

Ok, so, here are images of what most people would consider to be a masculine looking man and a feminine looking woman-

http://marshallmatlock.com/wp-content/gallery/the-mans-man-xxii-sean-connery/thumbs/thumbs_sean-connery-james-bond-rolex-never-say-never-again.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TOgZz7hDRGM/UXBecUEf2pI/AAAAAAAADMw/gJFZChO3YwM/s1600/305644_10151277906836505_1859791014_n.jpg

Standard, typical, if not stereotypical physical looks which almost everyone would describe as masculine and feminine. That is what they look like on the outside. But how do they feel on the inside? What if the guy felt like or desired to look like the girl? He may look masculine, but he does not feel that way, or relate to how he looks. Crossdressers will wear feminine clothing because it is how they feel inside. Maybe it should not be described as a feeling but simply what they are inside?? My use of the word feminine is not derived at by how I dress, or look when I wear women's clothing, that has a physical appearance of feminine, but it is how I feel on the inside that makes me want to.

[MatildaJ.]

I am coming to the realization that the "feelings" I have are not valid, according to the experts on this site.

There are no experts here, just people speaking from their own feelings and experiences. Your feelings are not the issue in my posts; I'm not objecting to anyone's feelings; I'm objecting to people's use of a specific word which tends to strengthen the riigid gender binary.


I am fine if a different word is used. Crossdressers will wear feminine clothing because it is how they feel inside.

It sounds like you're saying: "I feel feminine inside." I think what you mean by that is: "I feel the way I imagine young, graceful, soft, demure women feel inside." (As in your picture)

Not any of the following:
"I feel the way old, wrinkled grandmas feel inside."
"I feel the way corporate CEOs who happen to be women feel inside."
"I feel the way a new mom with spit-up on her shirt and a tired back feels inside."
"I feel the way a chubby woman being told by her boyfriend to lose weight feels inside."

Assuming I'm pretty much correct, and only one narrow way of being female is represented when you feel "feminine," then we can resolve this by just replacing it with "stereotypically feminine." So: crossdressers wear stereotypically feminine clothes because they feel stereotypically feminine inside.

[Confucius]

I don't believe any cross-dresser actually knows what feminine really feels like. We are biologically males with all the testosterone, the sex drive, the adrenaline rush, the desires to compete and win, and with the natural propensity to protect women. When we say we are "feeling feminine" we are describing a perception, or sensation. Our brains are hard wired to respond to cross-dressing just as if we were in actual contact with a female. Our brain then releases a host of neurotransmitters, dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin and others which produce the sensations we enjoy. Then we wonder, what is generating this contact with female sensation? We look at ourselves in the mirror and we see a female. Its as if our insides are masculine but on the outside we see feminine.

No real gg would consider this as "feeling feminine". It is only a perception we gain by virtue of our sensory pathways. Our brain is hard-wired such that activation in one sensory pathway (wearing women's clothing) produces an automatic and involuntary response in a second sensory pathway (the stimulus from contact with a female). Cross-dressing is a form of synesthesia. The "feeling feminine" sensation is just the neurotransmitters talking.

[Tina_gm]

It sounds like you're saying: "I feel feminine inside." I think what you mean by that is: "I feel the way I imagine young, graceful, soft, demure women feel inside." (As in your picture)

Not any of the following:
"I feel the way old, wrinkled grandmas feel inside."
"I feel the way corporate CEOs who happen to be women feel inside."
"I feel the way a new mom with spit-up on her shirt and a tired back feels inside."
"I feel the way a chubby woman being told by her boyfriend to lose weight feels inside."

Assuming I'm pretty much correct, and only one narrow way of being female is represented when you feel "feminine," then we can resolve this by just replacing it with "stereotypically feminine." So: crossdressers wear stereotypically feminine clothes because they feel stereotypically feminine inside.I feel feminine inside and because of that, I would like to look like the girl in the photo I posted. Or if not feminine, something makes me want to feel that way, whatever it is. I wonder how the old wrinkled Grandma feels inside?? Perhaps she feels like the girl in the photo too, but time and her body are not in sync with how she feels.... Which the same can be said of guys with the photo of Sean Connery in his prime. I feel like both, but my body cooperates with neither.

Jess- you seem so hung up on the visual attributes. it is a CDers way of expressing their femininity. As if it is a crime to want to look like the girl in the photo, most girls want to look like the girl in the photo, and probably the wrinkled old grandmas as much as anyone. I am going to go on using the term feminine, as I see it, it applies to me, and you are going to have to go on feeling insulted by it I guess. Know that no attempt is being made to insult you or for you to feel bad in any way, and if you see me using the term again, don't take it personal ok.

[Dana M]

Gendermutt,
thanks for starting this thread. I have found it very thought provoking.
Tinkerbelle, Jesse, and Momarie,
First I want to apologize. I understand how you could find the use of the word "feminine" offensive. Like it has been stated in a few posts, a GM can not know how it truly means to be a GG because as Confucius articulates of the brain chemistry involved.
I have seen by working with women and from watching my mom and sister, the point you ladies make about feeling feminine. Correct me If I am wrong, but If I understand you definition of "feminine" it is the state of being a female with all that entails.
I hope that the world will eventually allow people to express themselves how they feel as human beings and not based on stereotypes

[suchacutie]

The complication that I feel when trying to explain the emotions that Tina feels mimic some of the posts in the transsexual part of this forum. If our minds start the same for a time after chromosomal connection, then it's notuunreasonable for some part of the male population to have major sections of their brains that were just not indoctrinated to being a guy. Thus, some part of us just doesn't function in male mode, and one direct outlet is to allow our actions to mimic what those unchanged sections of our brains tell us. Some of find we must change as much of our lives as possible, and so do everything possible to switch gender in every was we know how. Are they, then, feminine in everything they can effect? I would think so.

Are those of us who spend blocks of time as our "feminine" selves very far behind? I'm not at all denying that once understood that we can't draw on our feminine selves when presenting as males. In fact I'm sure we can. It's a state of mind, though the mind can be assisted by the physical trappings of our feminine selves.

[samantha rogers]

Isha, you caught my attention with your comment about acting...lol...go figure! Haha
So let me bring an actors perspective to this.
There are two essential approaches to playing a role as as actor, but both are designed to do the same thing...to allow the actor to become "real" within the role. One approach is loosely called "outside in" and the other "inside out".
With "inside out" (which is what most people know as "method" acting, the approach starts with searching for an inner truth and then latching onto that and allowing mannerisms and speech to grow organically from that until a complete character emerges. With "outside in" the opposite occurs. Mannerisms and speech are created technically and then inhabited in such a way that the inner truth begins to grow. Both work for different performers.
No, I am not equating gender identity with acting, but in some ways there are some connections.
In learning to "feel" feminine", whatever that may mean to an individual, there is a point where the inner truth, as it reveals itself, will begin to produce an expression in mannerisms and other tangible forms likely to be quite different from previous masculine patterns. And, truthfully, this is not acting, but rather just expression of what is going on inside.
In really good acting, there is often only a razor thin line between performance and reality, and it is occasionally crossed.

I guess my point is a disagreement with the commonly expressed opinion that "acting femme" is soehow artificial. I suppose it can be, but it isn't always. :daydreaming:
Sometimes it is merely part of the peocess of self discovery.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Assuming I'm pretty much correct, and only one narrow way of being female is represented when you feel "feminine," then we can resolve this by just replacing it with "stereotypically feminine." So: crossdressers wear stereotypically feminine clothes because they feel stereotypically feminine inside.

This is a really valid point, Jess. It's no coincidence that most here imagine themselves as some young hot supermodel and not Grandma with a bad back. Silliest part is, none of these women will think about their femininity the way crossdressers do. The girl in Gendermutt's photo will feel like a human being. There will be no distinct gender feelings in her everyday life, as there won't be for the grandma or the busy mom or any of us. This is the hardest part to understand in all this. I'd bet most non crossdressing men don't feel their masculinity either. We all just feel human, no matter our personality types or what chromosomes we've been gifted.

So, where do these compartmentalised feelings of gender come from? And why would a man immediately assume that because he's drawn to women's clothing and company and enjoys behaving as we do, that this makes him feminine? These things don't make a person feminine. They just make him human.

So why can't a man do all these things without compartmentalising and complicating the whole thing? I think Confucius's brain wiring theory is really starting to make sense, because there's definitely something else at play here affecting how crossdressers see the world.

Interesting :)

[Farrah]

Tinkerbell said it best. Because of our cding, we are able to express a softer side that lives within us, freely. I enjoy being able to express this side. My male counterparts would probably call me gay, but that isn't the case at all. I really don't know what it means to feel feminine. I just know at times, I have feelings, if you know what I mean. At any rate, I agree with Tinkerbell's points...:)

[PaulaQ]

There will be no distinct gender feelings in her everyday life, as there won't be for the grandma or the busy mom or any of us. This is the hardest part to understand in all this. I'd bet most non crossdressing men don't feel their masculinity either. We all just feel human, no matter our personality types or what chromosomes we've been gifted.


Au contraire, Tinkerbell. What you say is only true for cisgender people.

I've spent a great deal of time in the past year thinking about femininity. Since I'm a woman, or at least since my mind tells me I'm one, but my body and socialization were that of a male, I think that I, and others like me, have a unique perspective on gender, because we've lived in both worlds.

I've been keenly aware of my gender all of my life. My gender has been this monster I've kept caged in the back of my mind. It's clawed at the walls I built around it to try to keep it down - because the consequences of revealing the truth were so dangerous for me. Having it break loose finally was a horrendously painful experience. The lack of congruence between my sex and my gender causes me to acutely perceive my gender because my body just feels so wrong, and always has. Besides - didn't the sex of my body determine my gender - as it did for all the rest of you? That I was so different, and it did not, made me feel alienated.

As a cisgender person, you simply don't perceive your gender because it's invisible to you. Your mind and body fit together. You simply are who you are. Transgender people, even including the CDs here, have gender identities or gender expressions that simply don't match their bodies exactly. In severe cases, like mine, transition is really the only hope for reducing misery. In milder cases like the typical CD, crossdressing sometimes suffices to align the mind and body long enough to bring some relief. This is the essence of gender dysphoria.

I don't think the stereotypical view of femininity expressed by most CDs and many transwomen is really an insult or parody of women. Cisgender women don't have to pass as women - you can mostly just be yourselves, and no one questions your gender. For the MtF, it takes a LOT of things to compensate for years of poisoning by testosterone. Most of us don't pass without a LOT of help. Is it so surprising that when compensating for the faults in our anatomy and appearance that many of us choose the most extreme female presentations we can? Also given that this is usually mixed up with our sexuality, we want to appear to be as sexually attractive as we can. And most men don't do subtle really well - so their presentation tends to be really over the top.

Look, if you are born a cisgender female, many of the things MtF's do to present as women are patently absurd - you don't have the time to do that junk, you don't have the desire, the patience to deal with the inconvenience given all the other demands of your life, and a lot of it is frankly pretty impractical. But you've been able to live your life as a female - you haven't had to long for something that just seems completely impossible. Sit a starving person down at a banquet table, and usually you won't witness good manners!

As for me, and my feelings about femininity, I guess the best way I can explain it is that I feel most feminine when I'm really being myself. As I bring my body into line with my gender, I feel substantially more feminine. I feel better about myself, my body image is better. My presentation is pretty feminine, although not really stereotypically feminine. I hope I just look like a fairly typical middle-aged woman, which is what I am. Some of my other trans friends make fun of my mom jeans and frumpy tops. Sometimes I wear dresses and skirts - I like them, but heels aren't really practical for me.

The visual stuff matters because that's what people judge you on. I mean, people on the street don't have the ability to judge your inner qualities. They go by looks, and stereotype.

As for inner qualities - I notice a number of differences as I've gone through transition, and been on HRT. I help a LOT more people than I used to. Helping people has always been important to me - but I do a lot more of that than I ever have. I think that's often viewed as a feminine quality. I try to be comforting, supportive, helpful. I express a LOT more emotions than I ever used to as a man. I cry now - I never did before. It's pretty liberating. Internally, I'm not so much of a stereotypical woman. I'm really aggressive, a little domineering, and I'm exceedingly confident. I've always been confident - but never aggressive, and certainly never had a dominant personality. My confidence is substantially greater than it ever was when I was male. I'm not terribly maternal - that I will never have functional female reproductive organs doesn't bother me, as it does many of my other trans MtF friends. These are really noticeable changes in my personality. I'd love to be a cute little straight girl, married to a nice guy. Unfortunately, that's not really me. I'm queer, I'm a top, and although I'm bi, I can't imagine too many men that I wouldn't just scare the living hell out of. I'm not heteronormative in any way, shape, nor form, and I'll never pass for such after transition. Most of this stuff is just markedly different from my personality as a male, or at least from the personality I affected to pass as a man. I was totally straight, really conservative in pretty much every way.

In terms of behavior, I'm sweet, I'm tactful, I'm a little flirty, I try to be funny - these were all true of my personality and behavior before transition, but they all work better now that I'm a woman. I came off as fairly weak as a man - and really I was. I think I'm pretty strong as a woman. People mostly report to me that my surface behavior comes across as feminine, at least much of the time anyway.

[Mishell]

Wow. Um, cool topic, but I'm not going to get into all the philosophical discussion. To me (my own perception), being feminine is more about mannerisms. My definition of femininity is girly. When I slip into a pair of pantyhose and skirt, I see my mannerisms change. Softer, not as gruff. I sit with my legs together, point my toes, my little pinky seems to be held apart from the rest of my fingers. I sit differently, I walk differently. I feel feminine and girly and dainty. Kind of opposite from my male side, like a bow is the opposite of a curtsey.

[Amanda M]

I think that Confucius, while having a clear understanding of some of the neurochemistry involved, the purely chemical model does not account for ALL of the feelings involved. These are generated by much more by cognitions and perceptions, whether conscious or not. Tinks' perception of femininity and mine may be poles apart, but there again they are simply an attempt to understand yet another label.

As for looking in the mirror and seeing an attractive young girl, I might wish, but for reality, check out my avatar! Great thread!

[devida]

What a great topic! I think a lot about gender, and particularly how to release myself from the binaries of masculine and feminine. It is extremely difficult to discuss because English is heavily gendered, though not as I've discovered as I try to bring it back, as gendered as French. The attribution of male and female to adjectives and nouns has me constantly trying to discover why, for example, a whale is female, but a duck is male (la baleine vs. le canard). Is a duck more masculine because it quacks aggressively. Is a whale more feminine because female whales are such good mothers? Of course not. The gendering results from custom, the reasons lost in historical philology.

Exactly the same is true of the way traits are gendered masculine or feminine. This is a matter of custom, of familiarity and convenience. In itself it means squat. They are just words and words are fairly bad at describing human beings when you compare them to the actual experience of one human meeting another, which, unless you are totally stereotyped in your thinking, is a much bigger deal than the words we use to describe this encounter. This is worth remembering when we get upset at words. If you really try to get someone to explain what they actually mean by masculine or feminine what you'll get is very individualized. It's like the word has a superficial, dictionary meaning, which we can use to communicate but the emotional meaning is much larger and deeper and quite difficult to describe. This is why. I think, there is so much disagreement here about the use of the word feminine to describe cross dressing men.

I've given up using the words masculine and feminine most of the time because I find them too general, inaccurate and confusing. I far prefer butch, femme, and macho. In my case some days I wake up more femme, some days more butch. I never wake up any more feeling macho. If I feel femme I wear a push up bra and look at my tits a lot (cleavage)! If I feel butch I wear a posture correcting bra which is kind of minimizing. On rare occasions I don't wear a bra at all. But on none of these days do I want to be female. I am transgender but, unlike PaulaQ, I am not transsexual. I am not, like she is, seeking to be more like a woman, or more feminine in that sense. I am also not interested in passing as female as many cross dressing men here state that they are. I never actually knew what I was meant to be if I described myself as masculine. I associated it with aggression, hostility, dangerousness, but also with certain gentlemanly traits like courtesy, honor and the other virtues that British boarding school beat into me. I was excruciatingly uncomfortable as a violent English gentleman. This is certainly a form of gender dysphoria but not one that would be healed by transitioning to being a woman even if I'd love to have some female secondary sexual characteristics. It will be healed by learning how to be me, a person happy in their own gender.

By my own gender I really do mean my own gender, and, actually, my own sex too, and maybe my own sexuality. I am absolutely convinced of our own uniqueness in each of these categories. I understand we may have to use words like masculine and feminine to communicate ourselves to others but I don't think it is necessary for me to use those words to describe myself since I have my own feelings that do a very good job of that. I do not have to name everything in my experience.

I have noticed that I am very very infrequently asked my gender, sex, or sexuality. I did have to skip the male/female box on a form at a doctor's office the other day. I thought of striking it through and writing neither but, you know, I don't really care what other people think I am. I actually think that this forum is the most gendered place I inhabit since these matters don't come up anywhere else I go. That's good and bad. I get as tired as some of the GGs here with the stereotyped views of womanhood sometimes expressed but I understand that the people here really come from many different places and cultures and I try to reserve judgment. I also understand that transgender is a very big umbrella and my experience is highly unlikely to match yours. I return to the forum mostly because it is such a friendly and interesting place. I get to read what people say about topics like this!

[Tina_gm]

So, where do these compartmentalised feelings of gender come from? And why would a man immediately assume that because he's drawn to women's clothing and company and enjoys behaving as we do, that this makes him feminine? These things don't make a person feminine. They just make him human.

So why can't a man do all these things without compartmentalising and complicating the whole thing? I think Confucius's brain wiring theory is really starting to make sense, because there's definitely something else at play here affecting how crossdressers see the world.We CDers see and experience gender differently because of our difference. When you feel different than what your body is, it greatly changes the view. And, for those like me, who have a wide range of masculine and feminine, it really makes the view much more sharp. No, a cisgendered person will not experience the gender thing as much, but someone who is transgender definitely will, especially when it encompasses both sids.

I would love to be able to do all the things more typical of women, dressing and behavior and all without the complications. Your husband does all these things Tink and look how much of a struggle it is for you. Why are you making it all so complicated?? Why does society scorn such behavior and treat those who do as a lesser value of a person?? How compartmentalized do we get for dressing and acting like women??

[Confucius]

Feeling feminine? I don't know. I mean I am a man, and never think about what it feels like, or how excited it gets me. So I found this informative commercial about the subject, and yes, it is funny. Enjoy. I won't say anything more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEcZmT0fiNM

[PaulaQ]

Why does society scorn such behavior and treat those who do as a lesser value of a person?? How compartmentalized do we get for dressing and acting like women??

Imagine how hard it is if you are a MtF TS, trying to be accepted in society...

As for why society scorns the behavior? Having a gender identity or expression that differs from your physical sex is just a completely alien experience to most people. They can't even imagine what it feels like. (Lucky them!) Our society has no model for this, and our rather rigid patriarchal society needs really well defined gender boundaries to maintain control. That such boundaries, albeit less rigid ones, generally exist in the architecture of our minds makes this an easy and implicit assumption.

I think on top of the social structure built by the patriarchy, though, that in general, people dislike, loathe, and fear things that are perceived as very different. Some of this can be overcome with education, but it remains to be seen whether it all can. Anyway, right now, there is plenty of hate about transgender people put out by many diverse groups:
- religions of every sort
- some radical feminists
- politically conservative groups and parties
- major media outlets (for example the WSJ last weekend, or Fox News)
- tons of regular folks of all stripes who just find us weird and unnerving

It really says something when radical lesbian feminists agree with *any* opinion of the Southern Baptist Convention! I'm not sure I can think of another example of such a thing!

Time Magazine claims we are at a historical tipping point for TG people in America. And I certainly hope that's true - but I'm none too sure of it. In any case, we have a very long way to go.

[Amanda L.]

What a great ad. Hilarious. Her mother has a stunning "look" that is very feminine.
I feel a bit awkward when I look at myself in the mirror at the start of a makeup session. The moment the false eyelashes go on is when I start to see a reading on the 'feminineometer'. When the makeup is done Amanda is in the drivers seat and pushing hard on the accelerator ( gas pedal?).
When I dress I like to do the job right and present (to myself) a very feminine and complete persona. I feel I can develop my feminine attributes much more comfortably when fully made up.
As a man I cannot bring myself to do anything feminine, hence the awkwardness I mentioned earlier.
Suffice to say I geat a great deal of enjoyment out of allowing myself the freedom of feminine expression even if I don't think I would pass as a GG (think my nose is too big)
Thanks for reading.
Amanda