Why The Acceptance Difference?????

[deebra]

Just read Leslie's thread (6/23) titled "Had my Isha moment" which caused me to write this. Why is it that this 12 year old as well as others freak out when they see a MtF CD but the same people would look at a girl or woman dressed in male clothing with a short male haircut very much passing as a male and are fine and accepting of it???? What is it that causes acceptance of FtM's but not MtF's???? It's not like the 12 year old has been schooled in this so why such a different reaction??? If the acceptance factor was the same for both genders then MtF CD's would be more comfortable wearing their preferred clothing in public and we would see more of it. If you know the answer please let me know????

[Beverley Sims]

Remember this maybe their first time at seeing someone a little different to themselves.
If they are brought up to think that different lifestyles are strange and the have homophobic parents that is a natural reaction for them.

Personally I do not like tattoos on women, but I have grown to accept them after an association with this forum.

There are a lot of other things I have grown to accept and respect others right to be as they are also.

This always adds spice to this argument....

Women can wear trousers but men can't wear skirts,'cause it is considered weird...

Now let's not go there. :)

[Daisy41]

I think you're taking this isolated incident and creating a broad view point based on it. FtM crossdressers do not have it any easier in society than MtF. Yes, they may be able to pass with less effort than some MtF, they're still just as unaccepted by society as MtF.

I have a feeling that even if it were socially acceptable, most of us would still hesitate to dress as we prefer in public. I think rather than expect society to accept us we need to move on without society. Society will not just simply roll over and welcome us with open arms. We have to go out there and show the world that they're wrong about their misconceptions of us. We need the 12 year olds to see more of us so that they become used to the concept of gender fluidity. I was recently at pride fest with a friend and her 5 year old daughter seemed sketchy of me at first. I got down on her level, gave her trinkets, let her play video games on my 3DS and generally opened her up to me and made a new friend. That little girl now has a positive association with a man dressed as a woman. This wouldn't be possible had I worried about why society won't accept me.

[Marcelle]

Hi Deebra . . . interesting question. I think in the case of the 12 year old it is more likely a factor of as Beverly said "never seeing a CDer up close and personal" and not having the ability to employ "social filters" which we learn to use as we get older. However regarding your question it really depends. A lot of women wear pants, t-shirts, shorter hair . . . more androgynous in nature with a touch of feminine. So if a FtM CDer is dressed more androgynous than out and out "dude" it is more likely to be accepted (androgynous girl). Now if you are talking about a FtM CDer who is sporting all the trappings, guy clothes, binding, padding, fake whiskers, walk, talk and still is evidently female then I would think that most people would react very similar to seeing a MtF CDer in the wild . . . everything from polite understanding smile to rude comments in an effort to deal with what is odd to them.

Conversely if a very young male who can pass quite easily as a pretty androgynous girl were to dress up it is likely acceptance would follow much quicker than someone of say my less than stellar beauty complete en femme or trying to look androgynous. IMHO, the one truth about people is they like what is comfortable to them. As small percentage of the population will look at us MtF CDers and say "Meh, to each their own" and go on with life. A larger percentage will be bothered because it bucks the norm. A girl dressed kind of "dude like" or a pretty male CDer dressed "en femme" can do a good job mimicking what these people perceive as normal . . . hence more acceptance. :)

Hugs

Isha

[mechamoose]

Our kids only know what we teach them.

If that kid's home didn't include that kind of thinking, then it was new to them.

Not her fault, it was her parents who didn't clue them in on how the world isn't always sorted into neat little boxes.

- MM

[Wildaboutheels]

"but the same people would look at a girl or woman dressed in male clothing with a short male haircut very much passing as a male and are fine and accepting of it????"

As long as you and sooooooooooooooooo many others here think like this^^^, you will never be free. You will never be a happy camper. Or a happy CDer.

Women dressing in "men's clothes" or having "men's haircuts" are NOT trying to "pass" as men. At least, I have yet to see one in Florida. [and living here for 56 years now] Ok, so I don't go to any LGBT clubs that I am aware of. Don't go to ANY clubs as a matter of fact. Maybe clubs of ANY kind are swarming with such women????????????? Maybe just maybe, most or all have their breasts bound also, and are sporting "packages", deepen their voices and try to act like a guy. Scratching, belching, farting and walking like a guy?

Or maybe there is just something "wrong" in Florida? Maybe in other states it is common to see FEmales everywhere out in the RW trying their best to "pass as a guy"?

Contrary to popular opinion here, it CAN be "just about the clothes". It IS for 99% of the CDers on the planet and no reason to believe it's not the same for women wearing "men's stuff". The difference is that the women are not using "men's" clothing items as TOOLS. They are wearing them either because they like the way they look or fit and/or find them practical.

IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANY LESS OF A WOMAN.

Except to many who water here of course.

Insisting that "women CD all the time so why can't I" won't change REALITY no matter how many people you find to agree with you.

[Stephanie47]

Society conditions our responses to the world around us. It is not necessarily the parents who are to blame. Parents are to blame if they do not make an attempt to make their kids understand and accept.

Also, if you think everyone in society is accepting of a woman who dresses as a man, you're mistaken. Many frown upon women, looking totally feminine, wearing pants such as a business suit. "Women should wear dresses?" On the other end, if the perception is the women appears to be a lesbian trying to emulate a man, well. many people have a serious issue with that.

Frankly, I've seen several MtF cross dressers in the wild. I have never seen a FtM cross dresser. We're back to the old worn out issue. Women's fashion has co-opted many aspects of male attire, but, the women are not trying to emulate or pass as a male.

[Dianne S]

This topic has been beaten to death. "Why is it OK for women to wear pants? Why are tomboys not ridiculed the way sissies are?" etc. etc.

I have my pet theory. I think it's because in most societies, women have a lower status than men. So for a woman to emulate a man is OK because she's emulating someone with a higher status. It's no big deal. For a man to emulate a woman, though, is weird because he's lowering his status by choice. Male-oriented societies see that as weakness or even threatening.

The point is: Complaining about this double standard won't help. It is what it is and we have to live with it.

[PaulaQ]

The reason there's a difference in acceptance is really simple. Women have stood up for their rights, CDs haven't. They had to fight for the right to wear more or less what they want.

Bitching about this will have no effect - if y'all don't stand up for yourselves, it'll never happen for you.

[Judith96a]

I suspect that said 12 year old has been well cautioned (for all sorts of understandable reasons) to beware of strange men. A man in a dress qualifies as "strange"!
C'est la vie!

PaulaQ, you're right about women having fought to get to where they now are.

Odd isn't it, how our society tends to assume that any man who doesn't fit the "sport-obsessed, child-ignoring, neanderthal" stereotype is automatically assumed to be "up to no good" and is effectively guilty until proven innocent! And then we wonder why there are so few male teachers in primary / elementary schools and why boys have few good role models!

[Desirae]

I'm not sure I agree with the original premise to the OP. How do we know that this 12 year old girl or "most others" freak out seeing a MTF or CD but not a FTM? I remember very well that a LOT of the girls I went to school with were very cruel to other girls who were "tomboy-ish" or not as "girlie" or "stylish" or popular as they were. I think I could make a reasonable inference that these same girls would be just as cruel, maybe more so, and ridiculing, to a known classmate girl who presented her/himself as male. I don't think the teasing or staring has anything to do with whether the target is MTF or FTM. I think it is just the observed or noticed difference that is the impetus. I suppose it may be true that most/some MTFs are easier to spot than FTMs. I don't know that this is necessarily true, though. If it is true, that would explain why MTFs are seemingly picked out more often for ridicule from these "teeny-boppers". It is my opinion that FTMs blend much easier in society in general.

[Edyta_C]

I think that there are many who "freak out" when they see a really butch lesbian or an FTM person. I see alot of persons around Austin Texas who fit that description. I can't tell which is which with out interacting more with the person. But I do see some that are bothered by persons like these. I would agree that there are more people that get bothered by MTF. Austin is unusual in that we have had some openly strange CD/MTF persons. One was prominent enough to have an ongoing memorial for him/her.

Edy

[kimdl93]

its been said many times before on these pages. women are not cross dressing when they elect to wear shorter hair, slacks or blouses. They are not CDing. so there is not shock value involved. Do you think a woman is cross dressing if she wears a short cut or slacks? I doubt it.

I wish I could put to rest the notion that there is a double standard here. Its a common rhetorical devise used by CDrs but its not valid.

Regarding the 12 year old , she didn't freak, btw, she noticed. And as Leslie pointed out, 12 year olds may lack a few social filters that would have kept a more mature person from staring.

[Nadine Spirit]

If the acceptance factor was the same for both genders then MtF CD's would be more comfortable wearing their preferred clothing in public and we would see more of it.

I think this is mistaken. What you wrote should be backwards. If more CD's would be comfortable wearing their preferred clothing in public and we saw more of it, then the acceptance factor would be the same for both genders.



its been said many times before on these pages. women are not cross dressing when they elect to wear shorter hair, slacks or blouses. They are not CDing. so there is not shock value involved.

Ahh, while there is not shock value involved in what women currently wear, once upon a time, there was great shock value in what they wore. There were societal expectations for what women should wear and many women chose to ignore it and wear what they wanted to. They wore the clothing first and eventually it became not shocking.

Too many men want acceptance first before they will loose their fears. To me that is not how the world appears to work.

[kimdl93]

That was, what, 100 years ago. The shock if there was any, was less about women wanting to be men, but the propriety of women presumably challenging male dominance by dressing in a less feminine manner. At that time an exposed ankle was also shocking in Victorian society...

Today, not so much. Women are not seeking to emulate or present as male. Let's avoid the false equivalency.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I guess it depends on the motive. We don't wear pants etc to look like men. We just like the clothing style. Do crossdressers dress in women's clothing because you all like the clothes, or you want to look like women?

If it's about the clothing then quit trying to pass as women and you'll start seeing social change. If it's about looking like a GG yet you're not TS, then sorry, you'll probably always get 'noticed' as you're behaving irrationally in the eyes of society. People naturally fear that which they don't understand - often with very good reason.

Your job is to educate away this fear :)

[PaulaQ]

If it's about looking like a GG yet you're not TS, then sorry, you'll probably always get 'noticed' as you're behaving irrationally in the eyes of society. People naturally fear that which they don't understand

Actually, us TSs are, unfortunately, also viewed by most of society as behaving irrationally. And that's on a good day!

Here's an example:
How the trans agenda seeks to redefine everyone (http://thefederalist.com/2014/06/23/how-the-trans-agenda-seeks-to-redefine-everyone/)

To be honest, us trans people are sort of trying to redefine humanity. We have less grandiose plans than the crazy crap outlined in the link above. We just want to be included as a part of humanity...

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Wow, PaulaQ, that link is depressing. The author is clearly against transgenderism and same sex marriage and anything that deviates beyond 'man/woman/baby'. I live the latter but I never once think the former will change how I live my life. Rather, I think it will give everyone else the legal freedom to express their love and live like the rest of us.

My guess? She's a closet lesbian and can't accept her natural born urges :)

[Teresa]

Deebra,
The reaction of that little girl is getting out of proportion, she may have stared at so many different situations, a scary guy, OK a scary woman just to even things up, a really stunning GG, the list is endless !!
As I said tongue in cheek perhaps her mother was looking for some heels for her H back at home and the girl was making a mental comparison !
So many things could be read into the girl's attention !

[Katey888]

I guess it depends on the motive.
I think this means everything... Tinks, I know you were meaning this to refer to the women in men's clothing perspective, but turn it around and take it away from the more altruistic sentiments on this forum...

The vast majority of CDers are not into emulating women, not satisfying some GD or TG urges, and not en route to TS or transition - because the vast majority (not necessarily on this site, I hasten to add..) are 'fetish' dressers and where sex is part of a pastime, the mainstream is deeply (and possibly correctly, in some instances) suspicious... (Please note: I am NOT making judgements of fetish dressers or other fetishes here - just an observation of how the mainstream will likely view them and, by association, all of us...)

How many citizens would vote for a local or national politician if he attended hustings and rallies dressed in a latex gimp suit? :) Not many, I'd hazard.... But how many elected politicians participate in some similar sexual play behind bedroom curtains....? The majority..? Probably... in some form... but it doesn't make them bad people either.

My point being - men who dress as women to satisfy their GD are misunderstood and will remain so until sufficient education corrects that misunderstanding - the little girl in the OP was just another example of someone not exposed to transgender folk or educated in what it means... education is key!

The article is downright scary - strikes me that she's suggesting that a dilution of the gender binary by the inclusion of TS/TG folk is a bad thing, in much the same way the Nazis looked on Jews as diluting their 'Aryan' descent... nicely written (for her purposes), but fundamentally flawed and bigoted...

Katey x

[Michelle (Oz)]

Why is it that this 12 year old as well as others freak out when they see a MtF CD
Frankly the basis of your question is wrong. I did not get the impression from Leslie's thread that the 12 year old freaked out. She expressed a curiousity to her mother and no doubt learned something about difference. I've had rare instances of that sort of reaction and curiousity but never a case of someone freaking out.

I'd venture to say that the very many CDers on this forum who regularly go out dressed would rarely if at all have experienced a tough situation.

[PaulaQ]

The dumbest thing about the article is the notion that 'the gay movement' is somehow pushing transgender issues as part of their diabolical master plan. Oh if only. Cis gay / lesbian folks mostly don't think about us, and most don't understand us any better than straight people do. We are, at best, an after thought.

I also find it amusing at the fear mongering over 0.3% of the population!

[Pearl]

oh, your pet theory is spot on. this topic is difficult to understand, and impossible when taken out of context, so it gets beaten to death often. what i find fascinating is the idea that anything can be understood on it's own, but people seem to like beating on this or any issue in forums. that too is something we have to live with!

[Confucius]

As a really, really old cross-dresser I can give you a historical perspective. The answer is that it is a matter of social convention.

I remember when women couldn't wear pants in public. If a girl wore pants to school she would be sent to the principle and then sent home. When Katherine Hepburn wore pants to an interview it shocked Hollywood. Society believe girls who wore pants were "bad girls" and they were a threat to femininity. They were accused of "trying to act like men". But women continued to wear pants because they found them comfortable. Women found that they could wear pants and still be feminine. Designers made pants expressly for the female figure. When women wear pants, or any men's clothing, they do so without adopting a male name, lower their voice, or praying that they pass as a man. They are still feminine.

When a man cross-dresses he usually adopts a female name, and tries to pass as a female. If men would take a page from the female model then they would NOT wear bras or anything to suggest that they are females. They would simply be a man in a dress. If they boldly wore skirts just because they were comfortable and were not competing to look feminine, then social convention may change.