I am much like a female in so many ways...

[Wildaboutheels]

is a common thought often expressed here.

NEEDING/WANTING to discuss things is more thought of as a FEmale thing. In fact, it was well discussed in detail in "Mars/Venus". [and probably many other books since then?]

Women generally do not need/rarely need "cave time" like many men do. Obviously some women DO require it. QUIET - no conversation please - because I am chewing on/working on some type of problem and I can't "think" if I am having a conversation.

I have this suspicion that perhaps "many" CDers don't ever require ANY cave time?

[StephanieJ]

My ex wife and I attended one of John Grey's workshops on the whole Mars/Venus thing and I have to agree... to a point. I have found that for me, "cave time" is a result of not being able to express my emotions as a man. Sure, people say that men can be just as open as women, but there is huge societal pressure for men to suppress their feelings. Where else can you go but to your cave? I have found that if I'm being more honest with myself and more open in my relationships then I no longer need, or even want, the man cave.

[Edyta_C]

I agree. If we felt free to express our emotions and did so, we would not need "cave time". I have gotten better at expressing emotions but still have times when I need to "cave it up".

Edy

[Jaymees22]

Usually when I'm in my cave I'm dressed so do I need my cave time or do I need my girl time?

[Katey888]

I suspect you're right with your final assertion, Wild - but like Jaymees, some of my cave time is girl time... just not in a cave... :)

I further suspect and believe that actually, there are fewer fundamental differences between males and females than we sometimes like to kid ourselves into believing... but it is convenient for western society (and often individuals) to reinforce a gender role binary, as it makes it much easier for the plebs sordida to know where they stand... and also to ensure that they stand where they are supposed to - not like us; not out of line... :)

Katey x

[Emi_]

It's always interesting to me that we who are vested in breaking down the barriers of gender identity and conventional gender roles are also the first ones to compartmentalize behaviors as strictly "male" or "female." We seem to do this primarily to prove and assert that we are in fact some sort of "women" or at least not "like other men" but we seem to simultaneously be far more exclusive and sexist than those we view as our critics and "enemies."

[Byron]

For myself, cave time and girl time or more or less the same thing as each pretty much serves the same purpose in the end.

[MatildaJ.]

Beautifully said, Emi!

[Michelle789]

Before I started venturing out of the house en femme, I needed "cave time" so I could dress. Now that I venture out of the house more and interact socially as a woman, I need less cave time. I disagree that men need cave time and women don't. I think it depends on a lot of other factors as well. Female alcoholics often need cave time, as isolating is part of the disease of alcoholism, even if you're female and sober. I'm sure even women who are not alcoholics or addicts need some cave time too.

I feel that I need cave time and it may be because I am an alcoholic. But I found much of my need for cave time was to dress, so we shall see just how much my cave time diminishes. Of course, we also need time to do chores, which may be a solitary activity. So maybe women on average need less "cave time" than men, but I don't think women never need cave time. CDers can vary just as much too. And the so-called male need for cave time may be caused by social constructs and not biological.

I third what Emi said.

[Zylia]

Hallelujah Emi! Whatever WAH tried to convey, you completely nailed it. It's like how recent converts sometimes become the biggest hardliners.

Anyway, with all the love for frilly things here we tend to forget that we're still dealing with a crowd largely consisting of middle-aged American men for most intents and purposes. I don't think that 'we' are any more or less sexist or exclusive than any other group with similar demographics. Cross-dressers are the product of a strict gender binary, not a subversion.

[Wildaboutheels]

I"m not sure if Dr Gray coined the term "cave time" or not? In the context of the book it refers to not necessarily being ALONE doing ones own thing [whatever that might be] but simply not wanting to TALK or have a discussion on any subject matter. It's NOT that a guy does not want to discuss any certain particular matter, it's that he does not want to discuss ANYthing till he figures out a solution of some sort. The wanting/needing a solution is where men and women differ and I have seen it in most women I have known.

I think most here have probably not read the book?

[MatildaJ.]

What is the benefit to talking about traits you perceive as typically male or female? Does it help you understand other people better, or other people understand you better?

[Kate Simmons]

I'm a multi-tasker and don't really need "quiet time" and/or place to meditate or work out problems as I'm constantly doing that in my head anyways. My quiet time is sleep and dream time where creativity abounds. :):battingeyelashes:

[PaulaQ]

What is the benefit to talking about traits you perceive as typically male or female?

This is a hallmark trait of gender dysphoria. The transgender person perceives gender in a way that a cisgender person simply doesn't. We are aware of how our gender doesn't match the sex of our body. For a CD, this is limited to needing an occasional expression as the opposite gender, while for a TS like me, only transition suffices. But I think that all of us TG folks perceive that something isn't quite right with us, and we're quite focused on traits of the opposite sex. There really are a lot of behavioral cues that are pretty subtle, and relatively unconscious. We mostly don't talk about these because they are hard to perceive and describe. For example, the female voice is largely a product of socialization as a woman - only the pitch is based on physical traits.

[MatildaJ.]

So what looks like gender policing to me is more like gender detective work?

Instead of feeling pressure from these threads to act more feminine ("Why don't women wear feminine clothes & makeup?!), perhaps I should try to feel more like a member of an interesting tribe, being studied by a curious gender-anthropologist.

[kimdl93]

gosh, I don't know. I would probably not use the term cave time, just don't like the connotations. And I spend so much time alone when I'm on the road that I crave whatever human contact I can get.

[devida]

Wow, I don't know what cave time means, Wild. Why is it gendered? I spend a lot of time, because I am an artist and make my living as one, alone, involved in a quite complicated creative process and I do sometimes have to tell my SO not to interrupt me. Is that cave time? But she, when she is doing complicated stuff managing our business also will tell me not to interrupt her. What is the difference? I do not and never have had some place or time where I had to be alone (and wasn't it Marlene D. who popularized that phrase)? Maybe it is just another indication of how unlike other people my SO and I are but I actually do not understand the idea of cave time or why, if it is just a synonym for wanting to be alone or having a special place where you can be alone why it is a male as opposed to a human attribute?

[PaulaQ]

Instead of feeling pressure from these threads to act more feminine ("Why don't women wear feminine clothes & makeup?!), perhaps I should try to feel more like a member of an interesting tribe, being studied by a curious gender-anthropologist.

Well, really, you're being studied by people trying to get into the tribe (in some cases on a part time basis!), and only being able to observe mostly the superficial stuff, without the benefit of lessons from wise elder members of the tribe while growing up, and the experiences of living in the tribe. But they feel a real need to be a part of it! Now if only we can get our war paint right, they're sure to let us in!

[Beverley Sims]

Cavetime?
A wasteoftime!

[Desirae]

I think I have a lot of typically traditional female traits. I've noticed them more and more over the years or have at least let myself become aware of them. I like to talk about my feelings, which is typically associated with more females than males. I also get emotionally involved n movies and such and even cry during particularity meaningful or sad moments. I've have always done that. Certain reactions I have to certain situations are more female than male, IMO. I really don't require cave time.

[Wildaboutheels]

It's quite common to hear from a female "you are not listening to me" after one has just sat for X# of minutes quietly listening, maintaining eye contact and not saying a word. You rarely hear that expression from a man.

[Katey888]

I think most here have probably not read the book?

Read it many years ago, Wild :) - I'd say it is quite acutely observed if a little stereotypical in its examples - but accurate as applied to those...

I'd be intrigued to know the proportion of males-females that have read the book... I found it very useful in understanding aspects of my relationship but my wife absolutely refuses to read it... Do you think that's a common theme...?

In truth I still stand by my observation that there are actually fewer real differences, but both cisgenders also like to perpetuate the binary... it keeps things nice and simple, clear...

Katey x

[Alice Torn]

I could see where women and girls could use more quiet time, as everywhere i go, i see them on cell phones much of the time, including driving.

[sometimes_miss]

And I spend so much time alone when I'm on the road that I crave whatever human contact I can get.
I found the same thing when driving for a living; at the end of the day, I tended to be quite talkative. But when I took a desk job dealing with people all day, at the end I had no desire to talk AT ALL! Seems people have a normal daily use of just so many words; males, much, much less than females. So we simply don't talk that much when compared to a normal woman. Also, women bond with each other by conversation, whether it's for a purpose or to just gab. Men bond by sharing an activity, and ours don't always include any conversation at all. As far as women not needing time alone to focus on solving a problem, again, women prefer to talk to another person about a problem to solve it. Men prefer to focus on it alone. Women also are biologically made to 'multi task'; they are better at doing several things at once, while men are better at doing any ONE thing, we focus more completely, better.

[CrossJess]

I'm a multi-tasker and don't really need "quiet time" and/or place to meditate or work out problems as I'm constantly doing that in my head anyways. My quiet time is sleep and dream time where creativity abounds. :):battingeyelashes:


Yes me too. :)

[Michelle789]

I feel like personally that although I need quiet time, that I do like a typical female need to talk about my problems and how to solve them. I find that it not only feels better, but I get the problem solved better by talking it over with other people, rather than thinking alone.

However, I maintain that gender differences are both natural and societal. Some male/female differences are biological, and are a product of the brain and hormones, while others are dictated by society. Being transgender, in the case of a CD or a TS (before starting HRT), we have a completely or partially female mind under the influence of testosterone. So we have a unique perspective in which we are shaped by both our gender identity (partial or complete or other varying degree of female) and testosterone. So it is not surprising that we might behave stereotypically female in some ways, and stereotypically male in others. Our male/female behavior may also change from circumstance to circumstance too.

Also even if we are TS and transition and go on HRT, we still had a male upbringing, and lots of male habits to unlearn. We many never truly unlearn it, although we can unlearn it.

And once again not everything to do with gender is biological either. It is socialized, and we have our own unique personalities on top of gender.

So a cis-gendered woman will, on average, think more femininely than a CD or a TS because they have a female mind, estrogen, and female upbringing, while a CDer or pre-HRT TS has a partial/complete female mind, testosterone, and male ubpringing, while a transwoman who has been on HRT and in transition for at least a year has a female mind, estrogen, and has hopefully unlearned lots of male behavior, but some male behavior may be leftover.

So I see there being four different components.

1. Male or female mind, and our mind may vary along the gender spectrum - we can't change this, although how we feel can change from day to day or time to time

2. Testosterone or estrogen - if you are TS and transition, than you can change this, but it can't be changed if you are a CD

3. Male or female upbringing - cannot be changed, although past habits can be unlearned

4. Personality - some of it cannot be changed, but it is also very fluid so our personalities can be changed to some degree

[Sc0rp10N]

Just my 2 cents... Its been my experience that women want to talk about their problems and have an empathetic listener, with no action. Men, whether cd or not, want to solve the problem, whatever it might be, its engrained into us to find a solution, whereas with females, its merely an expression of feelings and opinion. I know for certain, I have gotten on the wrong side of that discussion multiple times by coming up with solutions to problems that women didn't actually want to fix, just talk about and express feelings about.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I know for certain, I have gotten on the wrong side of that discussion multiple times by coming up with solutions to problems that women didn't actually want to fix, just talk about and express feelings about.

Yep!! My H is a huge Mr Fixit and can never understand why it drives me insane when he tries to solve impossible probems. Sometimes it's imperative just to talk about something rather than solve it. Surely men feel this way sometimes, too??

[Sc0rp10N]

Yep!! My H is a huge Mr Fixit and can never understand why it drives me insane when he tries to solve impossible probems. Sometimes it's imperative just to talk about something rather than solve it. Surely men feel this way sometimes, too??

haha!!! Nope, sorry, first inclination is always to solve the problem, fix the leak, make it go away so we can focus on things WE think matter. Now, we DO understand that many of those discussions may be expressions of frustration or whatever, but we're hard-wired to try to fix them. It's just who we ARE.